Should cell phone drivers be singled out?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    Indeed...the yappers are crap drivers to begin with. They are just going to hold a bowl of ice cream and play with the ICE when the phone is taken away. Banning one distraction, one that although terribly annoying has not resulted in carnage nor anything close to what "studies" have claimed, will do nothing.

    A couple years ago I had to drive off on the shoulder to avoid a lady who was fooling around with her cig and decided she wanted my (oncoming) lane. Time to ban smoking while driving.

    Last year a friend of mine was rear-ended by a lady who was playing with her dog while driving. Time to ban dogs in cars too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    It needs to start even before drivers ed. This devolving society needs to re-examine its attitude about driving, and treat it as something serious, not something as simple as sitting back and watching TV. Some type of PR campaign needs to be born, as you mention. Whatever is done for drivers training and the shaping of attitudes about driving in Europe needs to be done here.

    Studies can show anything depending on who funds them and how the data is examined.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Perhaps we can even blame the automatic transmission for getting that ball rolling. If everyone drove a manual, phone yapping would be way down, along with eating, drinking, smoking, playing with ICE, etc.

    Well I managed to drive stick and eat in the car and talk on the cell phone for many years and I have never had an accident. :shades: (seriously)
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Agree. Has to start with teens in driver's ed in high school. State Departments of Driver's License need to revise their Rules of Road regarding attentive/defensive driving, test (retest regularly) for these on exam and on the road.

    Of course, dangers of distractions and changing mindsets is the challenge. Auto makers are doing their part counter to safe driving by continuously adding in more distractful gadgets. Now, this would be a good place for Washington to do good on big brother stuff rather than nonsense they were working on all last year without accomplishment.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    Perhaps driving a manual sharpens other abilities. I'd trust the manual driver's ability to multitask more than the automatic driver.

    I drive an automatic, btw...never eat in the car - simply to cut down on mess...and driving is a good excuse to not talk on the phone. If it's important, they'll leave a message.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    I remember when I took my driving test...at the end, I said "that's it?"...20 minutes of driving in light traffic in the small town I lived in. Nothing greater than 40mph, nothing in dense traffic, nothing to test decision-making skills That's just an insane way to judge driving ability. It needs to start from the beginning.

    I do think that making distracted driving a social stigma will do much more to improve the ever-declining conditions on the road than enacting a folio of asinine and arbitrary laws. Make it embarrassing to be seen yapping on the phone or eating a taco while driving. Image is everything.

    And sadly, the public sector alone lacks the ability to get anything like this going. We need to start an anti-distraction organization ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We need to start an anti-distraction organization

    Yeah, put up some flashing billboards every 2,000 feet. :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    I've always wondered if those fancy (yet tasteless) animated billboards have created enough of a distraction to cause crashes. There are a couple of really loud ones along I5 near Seattle...terrible at night.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Is it though? Are there enough attentive people on the road to keep the baddies in check

    Can't say. All I know is I have to take evasive action at least once a week because someone is in their own little bubble on the cell phone (or texting).
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    If someone causes and accident due to cell phone use, there are already laws against distracted driving which would apply

    There may, or may not be, laws against distracted driving. The issue is how do you prove the driver who caused the accident was distracted? If you're employed driving a public conveyance such as a train or bus, and an accident occurs, you are required to give a urine sample to tell if you were in any way impaired. I also think you are required to turn over cell phone records if there was any chance that cell phone use was related to the accident (as happened in the train accident in California).

    That is not the case of someone driving and having an accident in their private vehicle. A driver does not have to give a urine sample, or even take a breathalyzer test in most jurisdictions, even if an officer on the scene believes alcohol was involved. I do not know what the case law is regarding cell phone records, what it takes to get the cell provider to turn them over, etc.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Taught! Who or what group will emerge that can fund and put up messages on tv and radio about dangers of drivers using cell phone?

    Parents, perhaps?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You get a cigar my friend. It's us drivers who are not talking who have these idiots backs.

    In addition, there are little to no metrics being captured with respect to cell phone usage, although a lot of theorizing has taken place. Bottom line nobody knows if all of the "accidents", that is those that are not acts of nature or component failure are 90% cell phone related or 10% cell phone related. The "spike" is not a spike, just a shifting of causality from other to cell phones.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    Once a week simply from phone yappers and not from the other 100 distractions that plague so-called drivers in this devolving society? Wow, you must live in an area worse than mine...and I can't imagine people more oblivious than motorists here :shades:

    The average driver, IMO, wouldn't know how to take evasive action if their lives depended on it. It seems a significant amount of people can't even complete a smooth freeway merge.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    So accidents that happened from other distractions are now being caused by phones? I find that a little hard to embrace.

    There's such a huge piece of data being missed - phone usage has grown at a seemingly exponential rate in the past decade, with a virtually invisible correlating rise in casualties. Nobody has yet to begin to explain this.

    If just phones are targeted by our beloved public sector who can do essentially nothing else right, and no other distractions are made evil...nothing will change, and the idiots will continue to reign supreme.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I find that impossible to believe!

    I can't tell you how many times I have watched an idiot with a cell phone make a dumb move while using a cell phone. Just yesterday I watched a woman run a red light. Cell phone up to her ear.

    It's not the phone. People are concentrating on the content of the CONVERSATION and not their driving.

    Texting while driving should be a felony.
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    xrunner - you mention that auto makers are adding more distractful gadgets? You know that argument was made back when in car radio became popular? would you advocate that radio's be removed?

    Just curious
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    So accidents that happened from other distractions are now being caused by phones? I find that a little hard to embrace.

    That's what I'm postulating. I don't find it hard to embrace at all given the pentration and lack of cooperation by cell phone users. Laws don't stop people from doing illegal things. As an example did the laws stop the embezzlement of upwards of $161 billion?

    There's such a huge piece of data being missed - phone usage has grown at a seemingly exponential rate in the past decade, with a virtually invisible correlating rise in casualties. Nobody has yet to begin to explain this.

    There is nothing to explain until proper metrics are recorded. Then everything can be explained.

    If just phones are targeted by our beloved public sector who can do essentially nothing else right, and no other distractions are made evil...nothing will change, and the idiots will continue to reign supreme.

    I would rather take on hamburger eating, nose blowing, newpaper reading, eyebrow pluckers than cell phone talkers or users. The latter are totally oblivious, while the former are mostly clueless.
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    isell -

    do you think your red light runner would suddenly become a good driver if the phone disappeared?

    I think what is missing here is bad drivers are just that, bad drivers. You saw a bad driver using a phone, I saw a bad driver fixing her hair.

    Put some teeth into being a bad driver, not just one activity that does not have any statistical bearing on somebodies ability (or inability) to drive.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Once a week simply from phone yappers and not from the other 100 distractions that plague so-called drivers in this devolving society? Wow, you must live in an area worse than mine...

    Well, I work next to an airport. So there's a lot of tourists coming and going to the airport, the rental car places, hotels, etc. Many of them seem to drive by directions they're getting from someone over their cell phone..." Yeah, I'm coming out the airport, heading west. What's that, I couldn't hear over the guy blowing his horn? What, I'm supposed to be in the right hand lane for the exit?" Sudden turn of the wheel and cut across 3 lanes of 60 mph traffic.

    So yeah, this area around my office is probably worse than yours (not that I'm bragging :P .
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    It's not the phone. People are concentrating on the content of the CONVERSATION and not their driving.

    Exactly!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    I concede ;) ...last time I drove in Vegas, I saw alarming idiocy around the airport. Of course, my car had nav, so I had no problems.

    Although, I do see idiocy from drivers with license plate frames from this city just about as often as I do from obviously transplanted vehicles. I always wonder what the excuse can be when you're a local. Of course, I know the answer...simple mental defectiveness...it knows no geographic, gender, racial, age etc boundaries.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    I just find it a little hard to accept that there's a phone-based bloodbath going on when I look at how wireless devices have overtaken the market, and how casualty numbers have remained essentially flat.

    But maybe you are correct in a way - crap drivers are crap drivers, and if they didn't have phones they'd still be doing something dumb. The readers, eaters, pluckers you mention are the same ones who yap. That's why distractions should be targeted en masse - nothing will change if this one distraction is eliminated.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I can't tell you how many times I have watched an idiot with a cell phone make a dumb move while using a cell phone. Just yesterday I watched a woman run a red light. Cell phone up to her ear

    I think you just made one of my points for me...an "idiot" with a cell phone is still an "idiot" without a cell phone. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I just saw this morning where one of the members of the Maryland House of Delegates is introducing a bill to make it illegal to read while driving.

    People driving in Maryland would no longer be able to read texts while behind the wheel, under legislation proposed by one state lawmaker.

    Reading while driving to be illegal

    While I am in favor of that, I can't believe there needs to be a new statute.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Again, totally un-enforceable.

    Does that include reading paper maps? MapQuest/Google Maps print outs? Post-it notes? grocery lists? Signs? Your speedometer?

    What is the literacy rate there anyway? Maybe people reading isn't that big of a concern.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Sorry. Disagree.

    A driver concentrating on a conversation is a menace.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    A driver concentrating on a conversation is a menace.

    If that's the answer then it's back to my original assertion that more than one seat should be illegal, as if you have a passenger you will talk to them. What's the difference between that and hands-free cell conversation?

    I guess you could ensconce the driver into a driver's shell separate from the passenger compartment. Of course if the passengers have to pee on the way then they are in trouble. :P
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    If that's the answer then it's back to my original assertion that more than one seat should be illegal, as if you have a passenger you will talk to them. What's the difference between that and hands-free cell conversation?

    I'm not sure what tlong was getting at, but here's my take.

    A conversation with a passenger is NOT the same as a conversation with someone over a phone. The passenger is in your environment so should be, at least partly, aware of what's going on around them - road/weather conditions, traffic, backups, etc. So usually, without anything having to be said, the conversation adjusts, or modulates itself to the situation at hand.

    That is not the case with a cell phone conversation. The person on the other end of the line has no idea, unless explicitly told, what situation the driver is in. They could be chewing you out for not having picked up your towel in bathroom, not knowing that just escaped being creamed by some driver drifting across the lane. It's a distraction that cannot be easily controlled by the driver (short of hanging up), unlike talking with a passenger or chewing on a Big Mac (tm).
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    A conversation with a passenger is NOT the same as a conversation with someone over a phone. The passenger is in your environment so should be, at least partly, aware of what's going on around them - road/weather conditions, traffic, backups, etc.

    Exactly right. If wife and I are going somewhere on busy interstate, and especially if I am in fast lane, she will not talk. If she drives, then I as passenger keep quiet.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    A conversation with a passenger is NOT the same as a conversation with someone over a phone. The passenger is in your environment so should be, at least partly, aware of what's going on around them - road/weather conditions, traffic, backups, etc. So usually, without anything having to be said, the conversation adjusts, or modulates itself to the situation at hand.

    So your toddler locked in his child seat screaming or spilling apple juice is going to halt while you deal with traffic situations? :confuse:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What are you talking about? I've driven with two young kids in the car and driving takes precedence. First off, young kids don't get food or liquid with adult supervision in cars, secondly in order to avoid a smash-up I always prioritized: 1. drive the car, 2. drive the car, 3. drive the car. Screaming kids can get tuned out.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    What are you talking about? I've driven with two young kids in the car and driving takes precedence. First off, young kids don't get food or liquid with adult supervision in cars, secondly in order to avoid a smash-up I always prioritized: 1. drive the car, 2. drive the car, 3. drive the car. Screaming kids can get tuned out.

    The point I am making is the inconsistency that hands-free cell driving should be banned, but somehow passengers are different because they would "not allow their talking to the driver" to interfere with the driving situation. That's just false for a whole host of reasons. So if you want to be consistent, you don't just ban cell driving - you ban eating, drinking, watching the GPS map, having passengers, billboards, etc.

    Driving is as safe as the driver makes it, and that means the DRIVER has to have the right priorities. ANY driver can be distracted by pretty much anything. If they are stupid they have an accident. If they have some brains they (usually) don't. It's too easy to point the gun at cell phones but the real problem is much more complex.

    As I've posted before -- I've driven stick, talked on cell phones, and I've also eaten in the car while driving for over 35 years! I substantially modify my behavior while driving with distractions (such as slowing down and greatly increasing following distance) and I've had NO at-fault accidents in that period of time. Yet I've been rear ended by others who were NOT on the phone!

    You may prioritize driving over the screaming kids in the car, but I assure you many parents *do not*!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    As far as I have observed there is no inconsistency. While the reality is cell phone usage will never be banned, it is the worst of the worst of all non-driving behaviors.

    Just because drivers can find inventive ways of not paying attention to the road does not mean cell phones are just another bad thing to do. Just because you got into a car crash from someone *not* on the phone, doesn't mean cell phones are innocuous.

    It's way to easy to point the finger and say cell phones are another distraction when they are not. Drivers are oblivious to their surroundings, speed, lane markings. I'll give you that driving in Montana in the boonies might be different than driving in LA rush hour, but my reference point are regional areas with extremely heavy traffic.

    Cell phone users who actually impede traffic should be given heavy fines if caught...no points unless they get into accident.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Cell phone users who actually impede traffic should be given heavy fines if caught...no points unless they get into accident.

    It kind of goes to libertarian views. We continue to reduce our freedoms for the nanny state to "protect" us. Instead, don't outlaw the behavior, but come down like a ton of bricks if one is found hurting other people or property while using the cell phone, etc. Sort of like the drug laws, but that's another topic. If you can talk on the phone safely while driving, you shouldn't have to lose that privilege because others are incapable.
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    nicely done xrunner - I suspect though that getting in the fast lane does not quiet most wives.... :shades:
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    tlong - well put. Again I think of the worst cell phone user I have seen and I don't think their ability to drive would improve one bit if the cell phone magically disappeard, I just would not see what else they were playing with while driving. At the end of they day that person is a bad driver period.

    If your driving is impacted ( going too slow/fast, all over the lanes, blindly cutting people off, etc...) you should be cited. If not then not. Simple as pie.
  • watkinstwatkinst Member Posts: 119
    Cycling mag just arrived the first bit in it is about cell phone use and texting and how its very nearly the same as blowing a .08. First three sentences describes a man who thought he had hit a mail box only to find out he hit a cyclist tossing him 90ft and killing him. Driver is now facing a 15yr jail sentence yes he was texting while he was driving.

    As I drove back to the home office after dropping off my daughter this morning I watched a college kid drive off the shoulder of the road in front of me and get totally sideways as he over corrected to get back to the road. He very nearly went head on into oncoming traffic all on a 35mph road!

    No doubt he was texting on his cell before he nearly lost it given he was not driving as a normal person would.

    I followed him to the college entrance and stopped next him as he was waiting to turn left. Sure enough he had his cell back in his hand and was mid text oblivious to me being nearly ontop of him in a landcruiser with oversized tires. I blew the horn and held it down till he looked at me - at which point I pointed at his phone and shook my fist at him. He put the phone down and promptly spun a left turn.

    Keep in mind there are lots of cyclists in the area he could have easily hit a cyclist and never even known it. Dumb [non-permissible content removed]!!!!!!!!!

    Don't get me started on the insane stuff I've seen while commuting by motorcycle. You see way more from the bike - I've seen people typing on full on lap tops while in stop and go traffic on a 6 lane freeway! Stupid people need to be singled out and be told by the GOV that no its not a good idea to type out a report while driving a 4000lb vehicle in stop and go traffic on a 6 lane free way.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Instead, don't outlaw the behavior, but come down like a ton of bricks if one is found hurting other people or property while using the cell phone, etc

    I agree with that. Cause an accident while talking on the phone and you go to jail for a year, pay a $10,000 fine, your spouse has to clean toilets in that jail for a year while you serve time, and your kids go to Social Services for the duration. Oh, and your parents lose their Social Security and Medicare benefits. :shades:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You are right about the nanny state, let's repeal every law on the books, maybe society will be much better. After all, if I can safely speed at 50 miles over the speed limit, why not let me. Right? Murder, tax evasion, embezzlement, no problem,all legal now. It seems your thinking is kind of libertarian and we can see where it leads.. As long as one doesn't get into a car crash, let 'em go merrily on their way.

    I disagree. Cell phone users, like left lane charlies are frustratingly annoying and should be dealt with as such. As I previously said, cell phone usage, --talking only-- will never be banned, but if you are observed driving inappropriately for traffic you should be heavily fined.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You are right about the nanny state, let's repeal every law on the books, maybe society will be much better. After all, if I can safely speed at 50 miles over the speed limit, why not let me. Right? Murder, tax evasion, embezzlement, no problem,all legal now. It seems your thinking is kind of libertarian and we can see where it leads.. As long as one doesn't get into a car crash, let 'em go merrily on their way.

    I get the sarcasm, but the philosophy is to not restrict any behavior if you are not hurting others. So in your tongue-in-cheek comment above, the murder is obviously false. But if you want prostitution - why not? Drugs? Why not? Cell phone talking? Why not? As long as you don't hurt anybody or cause any property damage, why not? Many people are capable of not causing any problems, so why not?

    In Germany they allow unlimited speeds on a lot of the autobahn (your 50 miles over the speed limit comment - except there's no speed limit), and the autobahn has an incredible safety record.

    The alternative is restriction. Some people drive drunk - so outlaw alcohol. Some people can't drive and talk on cell phones - so outlaw that. Some people run into swimmers with jet skis - so outlaw those. If it COULD hurt somebody, outlaw it!

    So where does that end? How are we being consistent? We outlaw cell driving, but crying kids distract the driver and might cause an accident. Is the government ready to start deciding that the kid in the car is a *necessary* risk but the cell conversation is not? I know I don't want my government deciding for me which risks I should be taking and which ones I shouldn't.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I know I don't want my government deciding for me which risks I should be taking and which ones I shouldn't.

    I follow your drift. But the reality is, and will continue to be different. If you engage in an activity, be it legal illegal, or in that big gray area in between, and hurt/injure/cripple yourself, the government/taxpayers will take care of you, at least to some extent. I don't see anyone being turned away at a hospital ER because they were injured speeding or riding a bike without a helmet or fell while rock climbing or shot in a street drug battle. I don't see anyone being denied a heart bypass (if they have insurance) even though they are grossly overweight with type 2 diabetes from poor lifestyle choices. I don't see anyone being denied a knee replacement because they banged it up skiing.

    For your "world" to come about, we are going to have to let people die! That's the bottom line, but we all know that isn't going to happen.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm not sure prostitution and drugs are victimless.

    Part of the safety record of the Autobahn is the evac system. The other part is it is illegal to hold a phone to your ear in Germany while the car is in drive. Drivers appear to be much more responsible there.

    Cell phone talkers are not victimless either. For the most part when I see a LLC not being able to follow lane markings, my first though is *not*, oh a hamburger eater, or screaming kids in the car, or an eyebrow plucker, or a newspaper reader. My first thought is, engrossed in a conversation on a phone and 9 out of 10 times, it's what it is.

    So I'm all for singling out cell phone users with hefty fines. They deserve it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    Drivers are more responsible there. They also don't usually eat or drink or fool around with passengers while driving too. The entire act of driving is seen on a completely different level than it is in NA.

    It's illegal to drive while yapping in some places on this continent too...hasn't changed anything.

    Make driving more serious business rather than arbitrary, difficult to enforce, and costly to implement punishments for just one distraction. They've all gotta be targets.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Make driving more serious business rather than arbitrary, difficult to enforce, and costly to implement punishments for just one distraction. They've all gotta be targets.

    I agree to a point, cops should ticket drivers driving in an irresponsible manner. But cell phone yappers, if their driving is impaired, should be singled out and the enforcement made up with heavy fines.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    While idiots eating a salad, swilling a big gulp, or fumbling around with spilled ashes are given a pass? Sorry, I can't buy it.

    The entire spectrum of distracted/oblivious driving needs to be fought.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    For the most part drivers eating or swilling somehow manage to keep their attention to the road. At least in my neck of the woods. It could be a regional thing in the northwest swillers are worse than yappers, but head south and or east it doesn't appear to be the same.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,506
    Judging by casualty numbers, most yappers are able to keep things going too - a bazillion phones on the road now, very small impact. The problematic ones cause the mess, along with similar of the distracted masses.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If you are attempting to convince me that the number of swillers is the same as the number of yappers at any one point in time, I don't buy it. Even if it were the case, swillers don't have to divert their attention from driving, while yappers disassociate themselves from driving.

    Actually judging by the casualty numbers if one takes away alchohol and drug impairment, acts of nature, mechanical failure, and crashes where the driver is not responsible, there are a lot of unexplained fatalities. How do you know or not know what the root cause is for the rest. Answer you don't, but it's probably human error. Or drivers not paying attention due to cell phone usage.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    How do you know or not know what the root cause is for the rest. Answer you don't, but it's probably human error. Or drivers not paying attention due to cell phone usage.

    Good points. If you get into an accident while talking on the phone, and someone asks you what happened, what are you going to say?
    - "My wife was yelling at me over the cell phone and I ran off the road", or
    - "A deer ran across the road and I swerved to avoid it"
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Good points. If you get into an accident while talking on the phone, and someone asks you what happened, what are you going to say?
    - "My wife was yelling at me over the cell phone and I ran off the road", or
    - "A deer ran across the road and I swerved to avoid it"


    Excellent point.
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