You can have a vehicle with 1/4 spaces between ever piece of trim, and still have perfect build quality. Build quality is measuring how well parts are being installed on a car, not how well it was designed. You can have a different build quality on the same car!!!! If Toyota builds a Camry at two different assembly plants, each plant has its own Initial Quality Ranking.
Worker defects or build quality often have nothing to do with unscheduled repairs. Electronic glitches are especially a part of this, assembly workers aren't the ones doing the programming and design.
You bring up these facts, it's your responsibility to present them....and something beyond tenuous JDP info.
"Would you believe that to great a build quality can actually hurt reliability."
Not necessarily, unless a theoretical car had all investment made in materials and assemblage, and not in roadworthiness. And great build quality can coexist with subpar reliability.
I agree with you 100% about engineering issues. Every time you have to go to a dealership for a repair either the worker putting it together screwed up, or the engineers didn't do a good job designing the part(software). Reliability = Build quality + Engineering quality
I agree with you 100% about the Germans having better materials and overall better designs. Their cars just have more problems due to worker mistakes and/or Engineering issues. The only problem with JD powers is they treat every defect as the same. It doesn't matter whether it's a blown motor or a loose visor. Each would be considered 1 defect regardless of severity.
I think the majority of mistakes found in MB's are do to the engineering of the parts not the workers assembling them. Having electrical bugs isn't the fault of the workers building the cars. It seems to me electrical issues seem to be the majority of problems for european cars and they need new suppliers.
All of that may be true, but still Cadillac needs more than that to overcome the lead the import makes have at this point. If anything their size only appeals to domestic shoppers because every other car in each of those classes whether they be German or Japanese adhere to the same basic size, give or take an inch here or there.
I don't know, Merc - the Cadillac may be put together as well as a Mercedes, certainly the Mercedes is not known for 0 failure tolerance.
Not even NV. One close of a door on a Cadillac or an examination of the fit and finish or materials compared to a Mercedes will prove Cadillac isn't there yet.
Worker defects or build quality often have nothing to do with unscheduled repairs. Electronic glitches are especially a part of this, assembly workers aren't the ones doing the programming and design.
Bingo. There is some serious confusion in here about build quality and reliability. How one gets unscheduled service visits tied up with physical build quality is beyond me.
Cadillac desperately needs better designed cars, but rock solid reliability is the foundation for a comeback. Look at Lexus. Back in the early 90's the Germans owned the luxury market in America. Lexus came into the market with cars that were nowhere near as refined, but never needed servicing. Look where they are today. Lexus is the most refined car on the road today, but they still live off their reputation for bulletproof cars.
I'd like to see a better break down of automobile manufacturers. The UAW are pussycats compared to most foreign unions. GM's two Lansing plants are a perfect example of UAW plants being competitive or even better. The UAW has barley any leverage in American plants anymore. Work rules are almost non existent. The company tells the UAW where and how it will be built. All the union is good for now is getting its workers paid good money & decent benefits. On a plant by plant basis most UAW plants now run even in productivity compared to non union American plants.
I 100% agree.....We all know the Japanese and Germans autoworkers have national healthcare, get nice pensions, so what about there legacy costs in those country's ? That seems to never get talked about. Toyota, pays for its workers kids schooling, company day care, and owns stores where it workers shop at discounted prices as other perks of the job negotiated by the Japanese union. In Germany, the workers get beer served to them on the job. Man, that is a awesome perk. We also failed to mention all the vacation time the Japanese workers get including naps where they pull a helmet over there head for darkness on breaks. The Germans like you guys said have 35 hour work weeks, no-weekends, tons of vacation time, and the UAW asks to keep what they got(which is little in comparison with the Japanese and Germans) and people in this country are ready to riot. :sick: We live in a weird world in this country.
Man you just don't get it!!! Overall reliability is measured by adding worker mistakes(Build Quality) and engineering defects together. Your car can look like the Mona Lisa inside, and still be at the dealership every week.
I agree with you 100% about the Germans having better materials and overall better designs. Their cars just have more problems due to worker mistakes and/or Engineering issues.
I don't completely agree. On the S-500 I test drove for a week and a half, about half the cabin lights didn't, there was a wind whistle somewhere up left near the firewall, windshield area, and the power passenger seat had a ghost in it, and the headrest would go up and down and up and down at will....
The whistle can be build quality, or somebody forgot some rubber. But the seat and light outages mean bad wiring, bad seat contractor, or bad bulbs - all can be subcontracted out. European cars don't have the quality control on every component that Japanese cars generally have, and even not as good as most American brands. Their engines and drive train components though, are engineered to go fast, and long. And they do.
The Asian cars sort of have it all - great engineering, great quality control, great assembly. They lack a certain soul however.....on the Fun to Drive meter.
Granted but if prospective buyers have a bias where nothing that the automaker will do will be good enough will the automaker ever make those prospective buyer happy?
If you had a next-door neighbor with a reputation for pedophilia, you wouldn't refer to your concerns about him as a "bias", but as an "accurate perception" or a "legitimate worry."
Brand reputations are earned, for better or for worse. Cadillac earned every bit of its fallen reputation, and then some. Branding is extremely important for premium products, and if the brand is tarnished, it is up to the automaker to earn it back. You can't blame the consumer for the manufacturer's shortcomings.
Every car, particularly in the luxury category, needs something special to stand out. The core branding question is this: What is Cadillac's stand out feature?
Note: If enough luxury car buyers are unable to answer that question reflexively and instinctively, then that is a clear sign that there is a serious branding problem. Personally, I can't answer it, even if I think about it for awhile, and I don't believe that I'm alone...
The problem is that every time I think of Cadillac, I think of Devilles and such, that are anything but edgy.
Yes, I know that they have the newer cars. But when I reflexively think of "new Cadillac", I think "Escalade", not "CTS". I'll bet that there are many people thinking along similar lines, and we're driving G35's, 330i's, IS300's, and C-class Mercedes, among others.
It's time that someone fired a manager at GM, and put you in his place, if just for the comedic value. (Yeah, we're laughing at Rick Wagoner, except he's not trying to be funny...)
The STS, DTS, CTS, SRX, really don't protray that image until a owner adds aftermarket spinners or dubs to his ride.
Cadillac, has just one model from the factory that goes the "bling" route. Perhaps that is a good route to take because then the cars interior hardware has to reflect its outside appearance. This is where the Escalade shines because the interior is awesome and packed full of "Gadgets" :shades:
One of Lexus' biggest selling points was their refinement. That has been the case since day one so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. That refinement along with their reliability is what put them over. For the most part Lexus' cars are still bulletproof, it isn't a thing of the past.
Overall reliability is measured by adding worker mistakes(Build Quality) and engineering defects together.
And again, this has what to do with build quality? How a car is put together, the paint, seams, panel alignments, material quality and finish DOES NOT indicate how reliable the car will be of vice versa.
You're the one that seemingly doesn't have a clue on how the two (build quality and reliability) are related and yet are not related.
Again, Audi is seen as the industry standard when it comes to build, but they aren't anywhere close to that when it comes to reliability. How is that if they two things are the same? Answer: BUILD QUALITY AND RELIABILITY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
Likewise a piece of crap Hyundai is ultra-reliable, but it is built and feels like a tin can. You mean to tell me you don't understand this? Reliability and build quality are related in some aspects and not in others. Period.
On the S-500 I test drove for a week and a half, about half the cabin lights didn't, there was a wind whistle somewhere up left near the firewall, windshield area, and the power passenger seat had a ghost in it, and the headrest would go up and down and up and down at will....
You're saying the severity of the problem isn't germain. It's only the fact that the vehicle has to be repaired for something is the way JDP measures that scale?
Doesn't appear like it to me. Your perception seems to create your truth (which is often the case with most people).
You bring up these facts,
I brought up no facts, I mearly started questioning your claims. Since you ask for support for me questioning your claims I am asking for support of your claims. I am not going to fall for this "prove me wrong" junk.
Not necessarily,
Not necessarily not either. So I ask again for your support of your claim.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you had a next-door neighbor with a reputation for pedophilia, you wouldn't refer to your concerns about him as a "bias", but as an "accurate perception" or a "legitimate worry."
A very very poor analogy.
Brand reputations are earned, for better or for worse.
No sometimes they are sometimes they are not. Sometimes the reputations are based on perception and not on actual facts.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes imidazol97, JD powers is measuring unsheduled service calls. If you go to the dealer because your Cadillac has a a loose antenna, and I go because my Cadillac left me stranded on the highway. We both have one unscheduled service call. JD powers should do a better job quantifying their results, if it is possible. Who else can build a Ghetto Sled like the Escalade? Does anyone know if the new CTS will fit 20" wheels?
I do kinda like the inside of the Gator. I think Lincoln tried to hard to be Cadillac on that one. Lincoln should go a different direction then Cadillac. I think the Escalade has locked down the "Bling" market, and it's going to be hard for the NAV to take down the champ.
What the Escalade makes up for in exterior Bling, the Nazigator makes up for in performance.
For comparison in the aformentioned luxury super canoes utes Look at the GLARING differences in engines, 5.4 liters in the Gator and a whopping 6.2 liters in the Caddy. Consequently, the Escalade has the Navi slaughtered in hp, and torque, and is slimmer by roughly 400lbs. All these disadvantages yet the Navi beats it in payload, and tows 1000 lbs more than the slade. This DESPITE the notion that OHV (Caddy) are superior for these applications.
I wasn't trying to disagree if that's the tone I gave. I'm curious if there was any distinction made between severity...
As for CR, my opinion of CR is like the evening news from the networks: you'll get the current propaganda line of their opinion on a car. I point to their Avalon prophecy which then had to be downgraded in quality after reality checks set in. I feel a lot more of their opinion about various cars needs reality for the US view and not the East coast or West coast view of which cars are popular.
I wasn't trying to disagree if that's the tone I gave. I'm curious if there was any distinction made between severity...
I know you weren't....sorry if thats the tone I had.
As for CR, my opinion of CR is like the evening news from the networks: you'll get the current propaganda line of their opinion on a car. I point to their Avalon prophecy which then had to be downgraded in quality after reality checks set in. I feel a lot more of their opinion about various cars needs reality for the US view and not the East coast or West coast view of which cars are popular.
snakeweasel: "CAN" and "DO" are two different realities. Peoples biases will taint their perception. If someone is convinced that every Cadillac has a poor interior the odds are that person will perceive the interior as inferior regardless of its actual quality.
I agree...people determined not to see the difference in the build quality between a Cadillac and, say, a Lexus will have their perception tainted.
More sophisticated buyers can, however, tell the difference. A difference, I would add, that even Mr. Lutz has acknowledged in his public statements. He is pushing GM hard to correct this, and each successive redesigned Cadillac since the CTS has improved in this regard.
Is the consumer dumb and misguided, or was there a good reason for the bad rep? Based upon the cars themselves, I'm going for the latter.
I would say its a little bit of both. The consumer has been misguided by the Japanese propaganda machine called consumer reports. They also get the East Coast/West Coast propaganda machines that love foreign makes because it offers you a status of being smarter than your average bear as yogi would say. The Japanese especially Toyota have hid recalls for more than a decade to keep that image of flawless cars in the main stream so consumers perceived Japanese cars as superior and that perception is still ingrained into the youth today since the hidden recall scam never was mainstream news. If GM, would of pulled of a stunt it would of been on every major and local newspaper, magazine, internet site, in this country. That should show you the biased media we have in this country. :mad:
I'm not saying that Cadillac, never made bad cars or engines or what not. I'm saying that people have a major perception problem in this country and it has been passed on to my generation by their parents and the current propaganda machine financed by marketing genious's from Japan.
The consumer has been misguided by the Japanese propaganda machine called consumer reports.
I thought that CR was in Connecticut. (That must be hard to pronounce in Japanese!)
I think that we need to first accept that some (not all) Japanese cars were a vast leap forward that only benefited the breed. Toyota invented new production techniques that made the greatest leap forward since Ford invented the assembly line.
Meanwhile, Detroit figured that it could compete by selling us vinyl roofs and Corinthian "leather", instead of making a better mousetrap. They've since paid the price for their hubris. As far as I can see, they deserve every bit of what they got, let's just hope that they finally learn their lesson and step up to the plate.
I do kinda like the inside of the Gator. I think Lincoln tried to hard to be Cadillac on that one. Lincoln should go a different direction then Cadillac.
You are usually very accurate, chevy - but in this case, Lincoln got the nice interior in 03 - while the Slade still looked like a Silverado inside with wood. So it's Cadillac that is trying to be Lincoln inside now. You are dead right on the Shick Razor grille though....and I can't get over it.
IF I bought another large luxury SUV, now that LIncoln looks like a razor, and CAdillac is the "bling bling" sled, I guess I'd have to look elsewhere to Infiniti or Lexus.
I meant Lincoln tried to hard to be Cadillac on the outside. I do think Lincoln is as good as the Cadillac if not better on the inside. Doesn't CR just use JD Powers surveys for their predicted reliability? I could be wrong, but I always assumed that was the case.
Toyota invented new production techniques that made the greatest leap forward since Ford invented the assembly line.
That is a history book lie according to my father, and grandfather. Both said GM engineers were the one that came up with building in modules and different models in the same plant but said the UAW, never allowed it to see the light of day until a few years ago because they feared it would of meant tens of thousands of workers to be laid off. Perhaps they were right ? I often think what if they would of offered a big buy-out back then perhaps we would see more plants stay open in these present times ? Of course that is merely speculation on my part.
The union was a lot more militant in the 80's & mid 90's. Back then it was hard to make productivity gains when the UAW fought tooth & nail against change. Now it's a different story. Today the UAW almost goes out of their way to help automakers make productivity gains. All in the name of saving what jobs are left. If a plant has a militant local union they are on a short list to close.
I think pch101 was referring to just in time manufacturing and TQM invented by a Prof. Demmings which no one in Detriot (and the US) cared much about and the Japanese (not just auto manufactures) bought it by the shipload.
Comments
Have you ever even sat in a MB or BMW?
More like an eye for the truth.
"Not saying you are, not saying you are not."
You know I am.
"Ditto. "
You bring up these facts, it's your responsibility to present them....and something beyond tenuous JDP info.
"Would you believe that to great a build quality can actually hurt reliability."
Not necessarily, unless a theoretical car had all investment made in materials and assemblage, and not in roadworthiness. And great build quality can coexist with subpar reliability.
I agree with you 100% about engineering issues. Every time you have to go to a dealership for a repair either the worker putting it together screwed up, or the engineers didn't do a good job designing the part(software).
Reliability = Build quality + Engineering quality
I agree with you 100% about the Germans having better materials and overall better designs. Their cars just have more problems due to worker mistakes and/or Engineering issues.
The only problem with JD powers is they treat every defect as the same. It doesn't matter whether it's a blown motor or a loose visor. Each would be considered 1 defect regardless of severity.
Rocky
P.S. I loved the great posts I read today.
M
Not even NV. One close of a door on a Cadillac or an examination of the fit and finish or materials compared to a Mercedes will prove Cadillac isn't there yet.
M
Bingo. There is some serious confusion in here about build quality and reliability. How one gets unscheduled service visits tied up with physical build quality is beyond me.
M
Look at Lexus. Back in the early 90's the Germans owned the luxury market in America. Lexus came into the market with cars that were nowhere near as refined, but never needed servicing. Look where they are today. Lexus is the most refined car on the road today, but they still live off their reputation for bulletproof cars.
I 100% agree.....We all know the Japanese and Germans autoworkers have national healthcare, get nice pensions, so what about there legacy costs in those country's ? That seems to never get talked about. Toyota, pays for its workers kids schooling, company day care, and owns stores where it workers shop at discounted prices as other perks of the job negotiated by the Japanese union. In Germany, the workers get beer served to them on the job.
Rocky
Your car can look like the Mona Lisa inside, and still be at the dealership every week.
I don't completely agree. On the S-500 I test drove for a week and a half, about half the cabin lights didn't, there was a wind whistle somewhere up left near the firewall, windshield area, and the power passenger seat had a ghost in it, and the headrest would go up and down and up and down at will....
The whistle can be build quality, or somebody forgot some rubber. But the seat and light outages mean bad wiring, bad seat contractor, or bad bulbs - all can be subcontracted out. European cars don't have the quality control on every component that Japanese cars generally have, and even not as good as most American brands. Their engines and drive train components though, are engineered to go fast, and long. And they do.
The Asian cars sort of have it all - great engineering, great quality control, great assembly. They lack a certain soul however.....on the Fun to Drive meter.
If you had a next-door neighbor with a reputation for pedophilia, you wouldn't refer to your concerns about him as a "bias", but as an "accurate perception" or a "legitimate worry."
Brand reputations are earned, for better or for worse. Cadillac earned every bit of its fallen reputation, and then some. Branding is extremely important for premium products, and if the brand is tarnished, it is up to the automaker to earn it back. You can't blame the consumer for the manufacturer's shortcomings.
Every car, particularly in the luxury category, needs something special to stand out. The core branding question is this: What is Cadillac's stand out feature?
Note: If enough luxury car buyers are unable to answer that question reflexively and instinctively, then that is a clear sign that there is a serious branding problem. Personally, I can't answer it, even if I think about it for awhile, and I don't believe that I'm alone...
Rocky
Cadillac is the King of Bling!!!
It ain't got a thing if it ain't got that Bling!!!
Yes, I know that they have the newer cars. But when I reflexively think of "new Cadillac", I think "Escalade", not "CTS". I'll bet that there are many people thinking along similar lines, and we're driving G35's, 330i's, IS300's, and C-class Mercedes, among others.
It's time that someone fired a manager at GM, and put you in his place, if just for the comedic value. (Yeah, we're laughing at Rick Wagoner, except he's not trying to be funny...)
The STS, DTS, CTS, SRX, really don't protray that image until a owner adds aftermarket spinners or dubs to his ride.
Cadillac, has just one model from the factory that goes the "bling" route. Perhaps that is a good route to take because then the cars interior hardware has to reflect its outside appearance. This is where the Escalade shines because the interior is awesome and packed full of "Gadgets" :shades:
Rocky
M
And again, this has what to do with build quality? How a car is put together, the paint, seams, panel alignments, material quality and finish DOES NOT indicate how reliable the car will be of vice versa.
You're the one that seemingly doesn't have a clue on how the two (build quality and reliability) are related and yet are not related.
Again, Audi is seen as the industry standard when it comes to build, but they aren't anywhere close to that when it comes to reliability. How is that if they two things are the same? Answer: BUILD QUALITY AND RELIABILITY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
Likewise a piece of crap Hyundai is ultra-reliable, but it is built and feels like a tin can. You mean to tell me you don't understand this? Reliability and build quality are related in some aspects and not in others. Period.
M
This was a brand new or a used S500?
M
Does someone have info to back this kind of statement about how JDP uses the info about defects?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A problem is a problem right ? One has to still take his car to the dealership for repair no matter how big the problem may be and be inconvienced.
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Doesn't appear like it to me. Your perception seems to create your truth (which is often the case with most people).
You bring up these facts,
I brought up no facts, I mearly started questioning your claims. Since you ask for support for me questioning your claims I am asking for support of your claims. I am not going to fall for this "prove me wrong" junk.
Not necessarily,
Not necessarily not either. So I ask again for your support of your claim.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
A very very poor analogy.
Brand reputations are earned, for better or for worse.
No sometimes they are sometimes they are not. Sometimes the reputations are based on perception and not on actual facts.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
JD powers is measuring unsheduled service calls.
If you go to the dealer because your Cadillac has a a loose antenna, and I go because my Cadillac left me stranded on the highway. We both have one unscheduled service call. JD powers should do a better job quantifying their results, if it is possible.
Who else can build a Ghetto Sled like the Escalade?
Does anyone know if the new CTS will fit 20" wheels?
When I think of the new Cadillac I think of the CTS which is one of the reasons I went for that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Lincoln is trying.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
For comparison in the aformentioned luxury super
canoesutes Look at the GLARING differences in engines, 5.4 liters in the Gator and a whopping 6.2 liters in the Caddy. Consequently, the Escalade has the Navi slaughtered in hp, and torque, and is slimmer by roughly 400lbs. All these disadvantages yet the Navi beats it in payload, and tows 1000 lbs more than the slade. This DESPITE the notion that OHV (Caddy) are superior for these applications.http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=FlNJZyPX2JJ- - - - - jTz1Ll65l25yywvwy6C1RtvVC7hptX2LlKXTVRWQ2!-93930988?styleid=100672735&styleid=10- - - - - 0782237&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=features
It might tow more but it eats gas like a starving dinosaur and won't even come close in track performance.
I'd gladly sacrifice the 1K in towing capacity for the fuel economy and performance of the Slade over the Gator.
Rocky
I'm curious if there was any distinction made between severity...
As for CR, my opinion of CR is like the evening news from the networks: you'll get the current propaganda line of their opinion on a car. I point to their Avalon prophecy which then had to be downgraded in quality after reality checks set in. I feel a lot more of their opinion about various cars needs reality for the US view and not the East coast or West coast view of which cars are popular.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm curious if there was any distinction made between severity...
I know you weren't....sorry if thats the tone I had.
As for CR, my opinion of CR is like the evening news from the networks: you'll get the current propaganda line of their opinion on a car. I point to their Avalon prophecy which then had to be downgraded in quality after reality checks set in. I feel a lot more of their opinion about various cars needs reality for the US view and not the East coast or West coast view of which cars are popular.
I couldn't agree with you more.
Rocky
I agree...people determined not to see the difference in the build quality between a Cadillac and, say, a Lexus will have their perception tainted.
More sophisticated buyers can, however, tell the difference. A difference, I would add, that even Mr. Lutz has acknowledged in his public statements. He is pushing GM hard to correct this, and each successive redesigned Cadillac since the CTS has improved in this regard.
No sometimes they are sometimes they are not. Sometimes the reputations are based on perception and not on actual facts.
OK, let me ask you -- why do you think that Cadillac developed a poor reputation and a declining brand image?
Is the consumer dumb and misguided, or was there a good reason for the bad rep? Based upon the cars themselves, I'm going for the latter.
I would say its a little bit of both. The consumer has been misguided by the Japanese propaganda machine called consumer reports. They also get the East Coast/West Coast propaganda machines that love foreign makes because it offers you a status of being smarter than your average bear as yogi would say.
I'm not saying that Cadillac, never made bad cars or engines or what not. I'm saying that people have a major perception problem in this country and it has been passed on to my generation by their parents and the current propaganda machine financed by marketing genious's from Japan.
Rocky
I thought that CR was in Connecticut. (That must be hard to pronounce in Japanese!)
I think that we need to first accept that some (not all) Japanese cars were a vast leap forward that only benefited the breed. Toyota invented new production techniques that made the greatest leap forward since Ford invented the assembly line.
Meanwhile, Detroit figured that it could compete by selling us vinyl roofs and Corinthian "leather", instead of making a better mousetrap. They've since paid the price for their hubris. As far as I can see, they deserve every bit of what they got, let's just hope that they finally learn their lesson and step up to the plate.
You are usually very accurate, chevy - but in this case, Lincoln got the nice interior in 03 - while the Slade still looked like a Silverado inside with wood. So it's Cadillac that is trying to be Lincoln inside now. You are dead right on the Shick Razor grille though....and I can't get over it.
IF I bought another large luxury SUV, now that LIncoln looks like a razor, and CAdillac is the "bling bling" sled, I guess I'd have to look elsewhere to Infiniti or Lexus.
Doesn't CR just use JD Powers surveys for their predicted reliability? I could be wrong, but I always assumed that was the case.
That is a history book lie according to my father, and grandfather. Both said GM engineers were the one that came up with building in modules and different models in the same plant but said the UAW, never allowed it to see the light of day until a few years ago because they feared it would of meant tens of thousands of workers to be laid off. Perhaps they were right ? I often think what if they would of offered a big buy-out back then perhaps we would see more plants stay open in these present times ? Of course that is merely speculation on my part.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky