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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Salaries have lost to inflation but let's see how prices in the market get adjusted now. The consumer will speak loudly in the next year. Deflation is a growing possibility as conditions worsen.

    Regards,
    OW
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    This means that you'll see cars from India, China, and elsewhere come in and undercut the current market.

    That will happen regardless of whether there is a recession, the auto-market is 12M or 16M, or whether the Big 3 all exist or none exist.

    Despite what you here in the media there are plenty of people who can afford to buy cars; people withdrawing their money from stocks now have that sitting in the bank.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Not only that, but Caddy might be made by Toyota, Honda or Hyundai very, very soon!

    Perhaps then, it may well become a New World Standard.

    Regards,
    OW
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Not only that, but Caddy might be made by Toyota, Honda or Hyundai very, very soon!

    If the price is right, which an auction would dictate the right price, anyone could buy a former GM division such as Cadillac, and run the plants. If I had the $, I would go to the auction, and buy the plants, tools, designs, and rights to the names. Just don't ask me to subsidize GM, when they could sell Cadillac, or a bankruptcy judge will have it auctioned off, and we can have new owners.

    Maybe the forum should be renamed: "What should a New Owner do with Cadillac?" ;)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Maybe the forum should be renamed: "What should a New Owner do with Cadillac?"

    Maybe you should start a new thread with that title???
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Not only that, but Caddy might be made by Toyota, Honda or Hyundai very, very soon!

    Yeah, just what we need. A modern day Packardbaker. Yuck!

    image

    I can picture a Camry with an eggcrate grille, a wreath and crest on the pignose,
    and vertical taillights somehow grafted on the Bangle butt.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Maybe you should start a new thread with that title???

    Well I think some of our politicians owe the unions and other corporate lobbyists and donators some favors. And the propagandists of the unions and Big3 are inundating the media with these phoney Armageddon stories for the economy if one of them fails (1st being GM). (Unfortunately there are a lot of suckers out here who believe this!) This is all in preparation for giving Pelosi and Congress a reason to throw the doors of the Treasury open to them.

    So I'm not quite there in creating the new forum. I'm still afraid we're all just going to continue to bailout the rich and powerful groups in this country, draining any Social Security funds we may have, and bankrupt the country eventually (or have a 50% tax rate).

    Our national debt is over $10 trillion now, and that's growing faster and faster with each give-away, each year! Why don't we just get it over with and go back to a feudal serf system! giving it all to our Lords! :mad: :mad:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    "Why don't we just get it over with and go back to a feudal serf system! giving it all to our Lords!"

    That's exactly the strategy. Globalization and endless reverse socialism to help the elite will produce that exact ideal.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Wait - isn't that exactly what he HAVE been doing?
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    From another thread.

    GM directors' options include bankruptcy filing

    AUTOMOTIVE NEWS
    12:23 am U.S. ET | Nov. 22

    General Motors directors are considering a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, the Wall Street Journal and Detroit television stations reported. According to local TV reports, GM's board was meeting late Friday night in the company's downtown Detroit headquarters and had added court protection to the list of actions that may be taken as the company's cash supplies dwindle and the prospects for immediate federal aid dim.

    from autonews.com

    Wow???
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Not so much, really.

    More like Congress smelled a con job and told them "nice try". After getting burnt by the financial institutions, their B.S. Meters(tm) were on maximum. Plus, I really do think that most Americans really do feel that they shouldn't whine like little puppies who got their butts kicked by the bigger dog down the street. They need to grow some teeth and fight back.

    Plus, as has been mentioned a zillion times by now, the workers in the UAW saw this day coming a decade ago.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Their BS detectors might be selective or they're now broken as there's talk of bailing out Citigroup! Heck, I found out what Sandy Weil made one time. I could comfortably live 16,000+ of my years on one year of what he made! Heck, that's longer than all of known civilation has existed!
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=136636?tid=edmund- s.il.home.photopanel..4.*

    Includes this interesting quote -
    "Sport Sedan Standard of the World" now wears a Cadillac wreath and crest.....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Yes, the U.S. *can* make good cars. :) The CTS-V is basically occupying the same spot the GNX did 20 years ago. I wish GM hadn't taken 20 years to repeat the same philosophy and success, but it can be done if they try.

    It's a very nice car. Really. Whomps on a 5 series in price and performance.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Imagine if they did that in EVERY category? Oh, well...

    Regards,
    OW
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    In price maybe, performance is debatable - but the plasticky interior is a real turnoff. Of course, so is the I-Drive in the Bimmer.....
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    But the Bimmer is the bank vault of the two, IMHO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    At this point the CTS-V would be no less in chassis stiffness and dynamics, as its performance values indicate, but the interior of the Caddy is much more inviting than the current crop of Bimmers for me. Adding STS amenities could make things even better.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The base CTS has interior components covered with real hand stitched leather. Only custom marques have that.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I have looked at the CTS and while the seats are leather, I very much doubt that much of anything else is covered with leather, hand stitched or not.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The interior features extensive use of leather wrapped surfaces, created by craftsmen who cut, wrap and sew leather around components individually. The XLR-V marked the initial phase of a new approach to vehicle interiors for Cadillac. In this first incarnation, the existing luxury interior of the XLR roadster has been significantly enhanced for the limited-production V-Series variant.

    http://media.gm.com/us/cadillac/en/product_services/r_cars/07v%20series%20oview.- - htm

    I did make a mistake. The V series has leather wrapped components whearas the other marques use molded to plastic PVC coatings. The base CTS uses realistic like leather.

    http://www.robertellerassoc.com/articles/Interior%20challenges.pdf
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    this is why I have quit reading edmunds and posting here - anyone and everyone posts complete nonsense :sick:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    But the original point still holds. The commenter stated the base CTS interior was nicer than BMW or MB. The hand stitched method makes the interior nicer.
  • bacalaobacalao Member Posts: 2
    My answer is yes. I live in europe, know well the cars Americans and Europeans and the CTS is better than the BMW M5, if the enemy of American cars, Jeremy Clarkson recommends this car is all that I own what I notice. Your Senate this crazy
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My impression of the 2008 or 2009 CTS that I looked at while getting my oil changed recently was that the interior was a vast improvement over the first generation interior. However, I still think that the interior is not what I would expect for a true luxury car interior. For the CTS the interior is good enough, but the one I looked at had a price tag of $45,000 and there was no wood trim on the interior. It was an AWD model though, so perhaps I am expecting a bit too much. Still I think that the CTS with options does become far more expensive than it should be for what you actually get.

    I can't comment on BMW or other import cars of this ilk, as the nearest dealers are more than 300 miles away, with a round trip taking more than a days drive.

    I did request that my login to Edmunds be removed and I plan to try to find out how or if this can be done.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If you don't want to participate, don't log in. :)

    In topical news, Wards keeps the CTS engine on their ten best list:

    "GM’s high-feature 3.6L V-6 with direct-gasoline injection returns for the second time. Tested in the Cadillac CTS, yet flexible enough to proliferate through the auto maker’s CUVs, the advanced V-6 makes a hardy 304 hp on regular gasoline."

    Ward’s Announces 2009 10 Best Engines Winners
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The CTS for 2008 is finally a car that competes. Typically, this is also the year the company faces bankruptcy...too little too late. I am used to this from GM.

    Now, after the explosion takes place in 2009, hopefully it's a new year and a new business model that invests more in the products to become first class globally.

    Too bad you are leaving. Wishing you all the best.

    Regards,
    OW
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Does that mean that the Nissan engine, whatever it is, in the Maximas or whatever, that has been in Ward's for 10 years running...ain't in Ward's no mo'?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It was a 14 year run but who's counting? :shades:

    Three of the ten engines on the list were Big 3 iron. Some engines, like the one in the Vette ZR1, didn't make the cut because the vehicles they are in cost too much to be considered under Ward's criteria (a $54,000 cap).

    Wards was leaning towards greener engines this year I guess. They liked the GM engine in the CTS because it has direct-gasoline injection, and cranks out a lot of HP on regular.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Time to say goodbye to sls. Just one last note for you: we're not writing utter nonsense. Then again, think whatever you want, it's your right to do so.

    I'm not sure profit is coming back anytime soon, if at all for GM and Chrysler. Many households in my neighbourhood signed a petition letter to our reps basically saying
    1) They're disappointed by the government's decision to give GM and Chrysler bailout with barely any strings attached, and
    2) That GM and Chrysler have lost them as customers until every cent of the bailout is returned.

    Not too many people signed, only 229. However in a living community of roughly 280-300 houses it sounds plenty. This is my living area only, I dare bet there are lots of others out there.
    Given current situation, I'm not sure even GM can ignore that. Karma, I say...

    OTOH GM made a solid start with CTS, and the current CTS deserve the title world class, at last. One step, good one but not enough. Just make sure the next step doesn't send GM back to the bottomless pit.

    This will perhaps be my last entry on this thread. I finally conclude (to myself, indeed) that there are 3 ways to turn Cadillac into a world standard again:
    1) If the company goes BK now, and restructure focusing on core brands like Chevy and Cadillac.
    2) If GM somehow, miraculously receive enlightment and start restructuring now, assuming they start getting profit soon. Or...
    3) No way it's gonna happen with GM, just sell it to someone who can.

    Happy new year to everyone. Also, goodluck, GM, you're seriously gonna need it.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    General Motors Corp. is counting on the 2010 Cadillac SRX crossover vehicle to lure luxury car buyers with new design and performance features.

    Cadillac sales fell 24 percent in the first 11 months of 2008, about on par with U.S. light truck and SUV sales overall. The automaker sold nearly 148,000 Cadillacs in January through November, including about 14,800 SRXs. But Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus division sold five times as many RXs.


    Regards,
    OW
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "The automaker sold nearly 148,000 Cadillacs in January through November, including about 14,800 SRXs. But Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus division sold five times as many RXs."...and I am quite sure that no one held a gun to the head of the RX buyers...

    circle, you make the point clearly...D3, while making cars that some folks want (their sales aren't zero, after all, they still sell in the millions), the "imports" seem to pay more attention to the buyer, since every RX sales was a cannibalized D3 sale, at one point...

    Reading books lately about auto trade (Comeback, The End of Detroit, Call Me Roger), each book describes the Japanese as companies who try and determine what the customer wants, rather then make what they want and try to sell it...also, Japanese seem to be receptive to feedback from their dealers, in terms of complaints and desires of the customers...The Sienna and Odyssey seem to be designed that way, literally taking 1000s of customers from Chrysler's minivans, as Chrysler just let their design get old while Japanese tried to improve an already good idea...

    As much as I admire the Japanese for their products and methods of efficient manufacturing, at times I really get PO'd at our Big 3, asking myself how they could miss the onslaught in the 1980s, as plants were built here and their sales were exploding from zero...

    All the D3 had to do was SIT IN and DRIVE any Accord, Prelude, Camry and a blind man could see the difference in quality, performance, and overall ergonomic design...sit in a Honda and everything is where it should be, easy to reach, nice tactile control, well designed...how could the Big 3 miss the pink elephant in the room???...how could they just not see it???

    In 1988, I bought a Prelude and a Legend...the Prelude had a 2 liter engine that put out 135 HP, the Legend had a V6 that put out 165 HP...that same year, IIRC, the BIG V8 (302 CID, 5.0 liter) engine in the Ford put out 160 HP...so, the V8 was 2.5 times as large as my Prelude, yet only 25 HP more...in a tank...and the V8 put out 5 HP LESS than my puny V6 in the Legend...couldn't they see ANYTHING???
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    the Legend had a V6 that put out 165 HP...that same year

    My 1988 Buick Park Avenue has a 165 HP V-6. That doesn't seem too impressive nowadays, but the car is still no slouch and seems to have a lot of pep.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    My criticism was that the Ford V8 only put out 160 HP that year, IIRC...their ads bragged about "V8 power" when it was sickeningly anemic...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    What was the torque of both motors in question? HP is not everything.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Of course you are right, HP isn't everything...but the torque of the V8 was probably as anemic as the HP...certainly not like some diesel, with 175 HP but 400 ft lb of tork, eh???
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    True, but neither is torque once it's translated through the loafy gearing that those anemic V8s were saddled with.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    By 1985, the Mustang V8 power was 210 \ 270.
    And that TQ curve was broad & flat.
    In '87 = 225 \ 300.
    The 'feel' was quite different than
    you'd find with a typical 4 cyl Prelude...

    - Ray
    TQ junkie
    2022 X3 M40i
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    My 1988 Mark VII had the mustang motor that year and did the 1/4 in 8.0 Sec. Funny how that seems slow now. The torque was real nice.

    225 hp (168 kW) 300 lbf.ft (407 Nm) SEFI (1988 - 1992 ALL) w/ AOD 4 Speed Automatic

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    So what were the torques? Was the V8 torque anemic?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    You mean 0-60 in 8.0, right? :shades:
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    remember the tork figures, but since the engibe was the same 302 I had in my 1983 Grand Marquis (listed at 130 HP, tork unknown) and the acceleration of my GM was like a "Lead Sled", I am quite sure that the "upgraded" 302 was just as anemic...we figured out that the only way we could quickly accelerate was to drive off a cliff, and even then we thought that the friction of the huge "boat" would slow down its acceleration, violating the laws of gravity...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Correct! 1/4 was 16.0. Thanks for the catch!

    Sounds slow now but felt quick then. Mustang was 14.0 I believe with the same engine.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Torque was probably 250 ft/lbs.

    1983

    5.0 (302 ci)

    139 hp @ 3400 rpm

    250 ft/lb @ 2000 rpm

    Regards,
    OW
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    139 hp = 215 ft-lb at 3400 rpm. So much for that "flat torque curve" myth.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I still cringe at the power destruction in those dreaded years of economy and regulation.

    Regards,
    OW
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I dunno, a lot of that "power" was ephemeral to begin with. The gross horsepower rating were hilariously exaggerated by the late '60s, and the vast majority of production was boring old moderate-compression engines with rather unimpressive ratings. More than anything else, it was the disappearance of the high-end stuff which created that Atlantean mindset in the '70s and '80s.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    True, but when you knew where to look, the power was eons ahead of the next 20 -30 years.

    Regards,
    OW
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    It's no different than taking a current car and putting a racing header and exhaust, a chip(equivalent of modifying the carbs), removing the smog equipment, and dropping in a more aggressive cam...

    Nearly double your HP right there. Of course, not legal outside of a race track or off-road. But yes, the cars back then made plenty of power. Mercedes had a 3.0L I-6 in 1964 that made 200HP. Smog equipment and the EPA just eviscerated cars in the U.S. for nearly 20 years.
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