Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

bigo08

i think its Land Rover

readerreader

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0efe1c/90!make=Cadillac&model=CTS&ed_mak- - eindex=.f0efe1c

For more.

merc1

The Range Rover also has one of the highest APPEAL raitings by JD Power of any vehicle. Kind of makes you wonder why people are so happy with the car if it brakes all the time.

This is something that no GM supporter has ever been able to grasp since I've been on Edmunds. When a car looks crappy, drives crappy, is cheaply made and has the gall to break down it is banished to hell each and everytime the owner can talk about it. When a car is physically well built, drives beautifully and has an interior to die for instead of one to die from, the owner isn't going to be as annoyed when something happens. This has to be true because otherwise all of the troubled brands from Audi and BMW (doing better than their Euro counterparts) to Mercedes, VW and Land Rover wouldn't be able to keep their image and sell vehicles. My god what happens when and if MB, Audi, Land Rover and VW get into the top spots for reliability?

If GM would make a car that is truly special to behold (i.e. drive, sit in, look at, something) they'd have 1/2 of their problems fixed. The frustrating part is when they release a new vehicle that on paper seems to have all the right boxes ticked then you go see it and it has the same cheapo fit and finish and/or other legacy GM problems.

I could really go for a car like the Sky Red Line, but that stupid looking top is enough for me to forget about it.

M

merc1

The income study posted by Britishrover was about the Range Rover.

M

bigo08

Wow i think Cadillac nailed it with this car... the interior looks awesome and the exterior is great 2.

The moment Rocky's been waiting for the unveiling of the 08 CTS

Like the guy said on the video, not quite the Standard of The World, but its as close as Cadillac has come in a long time... cant argue with that

merc1

Pretty good. 258hp and 300hp sixes and a much better interior than before. We'll have to see the dreaded "press" has to say about it.

M

mediapusher

Merc1-

It makes me laugh when others on here (e.g. RockyLee) scoff at what I mostly have to say about G.M. (which isn't good), when professional press releases often share the same view, indicating that G.M. screwed up and continues to screw up big time in the U.S.A. See below:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Luxury_Cars/2008_Cadillac_CTS_P-- review.S183.A11488.html

"It wasn't all that long ago, January 2002, to be precise, that Cadillac staged an insurrection of its own, overthrowing the staid and directionless order that had led "the standard to the world" to become little more than an American also-ran. ", Marty Padgett

That's not to say the first-generation CTS was truly world-class. As General Motors' product czar, Bob Lutz, admits, "We managed to spend a lot of money on the interior and still make it look cheap." , Bob Lutz

--mediapusher

mediapusher

Lemko-

Ok I stand to be corrected, I guess it doesn't matter what brand the car is, some car salesman can be butt heads. All I know is that I've always been treated very nice at Acura and Honda dealerships, and the product has always been fabulous. The Toyota dealership was kind of aloof, but still pleasant and patient. The last time I was at a Chrysler dealership, I was "scared" so badly it forever turned me off to Chryslers and Chrysler dealerships, the same thing happened at Volkswagen. My experience at a Pontiac dealership 12 years ago sealed my distrust forever in G.M. cars. What a piece of junk that Grand Am was...Oh my god. The salesman was pleasant, but he might as well had been selling counterfeit goods. All but one of my friends now drive Asian or Chrysler or German automobiles. Some of them were once G.M. customers. And one of those friends could afford to drive whatever he wants, including names like Maserati. His choice is now the Lexus brand. He once drove Cadillacs. (So G.M. you better clean up your act, if you want to be standard of the world, regardless of the name plate)

--mediapusher

mediapusher

"The Range Rover also has one of the highest APPEAL ratings by JD Power of any vehicle. Kind of makes you wonder why people are so happy with the car if it brakes all the time."
__________________________________

That's something I've never been able to figure out either.

rockylee

merc1,

I like you do respect the current S-Class and it's significance in the market place.

Anyhow hows your new Benz treating you ?

Rocky

rockylee

readerreader,

You are the man !!!!!!! :shades: WOW, This car about brings a tear to my eye.

General Motors, has "The Standard of the World" ELLPS with this one baby !!!!!!! OMG, it's so awesome, sexy, so refined !!!!! GM, kicked the bar right over the heads of BMW with the NEW 2008' Cadillac CTS......

Please excuse me because I'll be cheerleading for a while. :shades:

Rocky

rockylee

Yes, I can now officially brag about a benchmark My Buick Velite appears to be dead but this car makes me more happier I think than that would. The CTS Coupe is going to get a hardtop convertible also.

I'm so proud of Wagoner and Lutz for getting this car right.

Wagoner for prez in 08'

Rocky :shades:

rockylee

media,

I'm so happy about the 2008' CTS right now you could go tell me to "fly a kite" and I wouldn't care.

Rocky

merc1

Yeah, there has been a huge case of denial among GM diehards since I've been here (1999). The thing that gets me is that before the car comes out it is going to crush the competition and then when it doesn't the battle cry changes to "wait until next year". Its like a rancid disease. It used to be funny, but it isn't anymore it is rather sad.

M

merc1

Anyhow hows your new Benz treating you ?

Just fine. I look for excuses to be around or drive it.

M

merc1

Well I've figured it out. Vehicles like the Range Rover are just so stimulating in their interior, styling, ride, comfort, features etc. etc. and that intangible "it" factor that European vehicles trade on....to the point that people are willing to put up with the problems they may encounter. That and reliability isn't the end-all some want you to think it is. Then we can get into exactly what we're labeling as a "problem". A blown out headlight and brake dust aren't things a person who really likes a cars cares squat about, IMO. Sure they may report it, but if they turn around and lease another brand-new XXXX ultimately they didn't care about such things.

M

rockylee

Merc, thats good. :shades:

Rocky

rockylee

Well thankfully we aren't having to use those words no longer because GM, has been delivering on their promise over the last few years. :shades:

Rocky

rockylee

0-60 in 4.8-5.3 window 300+ hp. with direct injection ????

600 hp. "V" 0-60 in sub 4's ????

Rocky

rockylee

Of "The Standard of the World" :shades:

This is "Our Country" and the 2008' Cadillac CTS is
"our car" :shades:

Rocky

mediapusher

Of "The Standard of the World"

This is "Our Country" and the 2008' Cadillac CTS is
"our car"

Rocky
_____________________________

Well we will see won't we? But don't be surprised if G.M. bursts your bubble once again with cheap interiors and their usual habits of unrefinement and not paying attention to details. How can you proclaim that the 2008 Cadillac CTS is the standard, when it hasn't even been released yet? You're weird. I'm not really a fan of most of GM's stuff, however I'll take the Cadillac BLS over the 2008 Cadillac CTS anyday. And here we go again, the European Cadillac CTS is very much, well.. EUROPEAN. It's a Saab in Cadillac skin. Why couldn't they apply the luscious interior of the Cadillac BLS to the U.S.A. 2002-2007 Cadillac CTS, instead of the gross cheap plastic they had inside of the U.S.A. version. I don't get it.

snakeweasel

When a car is physically well built, drives beautifully and has an interior to die for instead of one to die from, the owner isn't going to be as annoyed when something happens.

I would, especially if its somewhat new and at the price they are asking for things such as a Land Rover. I mean every sub $20K car I have ever had made it to 100K or more miles with no real issues, so I would expect at least that much from a $45K or more car. A well built car that has a real nice interior and drives very well is useless if its always in the shop.

This has to be true because otherwise all of the troubled brands from Audi and BMW (doing better than their Euro counterparts) to Mercedes, VW and Land Rover wouldn't be able to keep their image and sell vehicles.

I know enough people who wont touch those makes because of reliability issues. Some of these people even stopped buying them saying they will never go back. So I wonder how much more will they sell if they don't go into the shop so often?

rockylee

Obviously you haven't read the "official" review on the 08' CTS by edmunds and other sites posted here ???.....Just to assist you here's some pics found here:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0efe1c/90

edmunds.com's (official review) w/ video

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=119071?tid=edmunds.il.ho-

So I'm not a bit worried about having my bubble bursted because I have the results and facts in hand.

This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR CAR

Rocky

merc1

I would, especially if its somewhat new and at the price they are asking for things such as a Land Rover. I mean every sub $20K car I have ever had made it to 100K or more miles with no real issues, so I would expect at least that much from a $45K or more car. A well built car that has a real nice interior and drives very well is useless if its always in the shop.

Well thats you, apparently people who buy Range Rovers (and other brands deemed unreliable) don't see it that way. I'm not saying that what I posted before is "right" and that thinking differently is "wrong". I'm just saying that there has to be a reason why brands that stay at the bottom of these surveys still thrive. Then there is the question of what they're in the shop for and whether or not they're truly there "all the time". Most of that "all the time" statement is just hype. All the time would mean a lemon and yes the brands I mention do make some, every brand does, but the "problems" we're mainly talking about are nearly as severe as some would have you believe. How could they be when people go back to buy another one or still buy after they read the bad stuff about the brand?

I know enough people who wont touch those makes because of reliability issues. Some of these people even stopped buying them saying they will never go back. So I wonder how much more will they sell if they don't go into the shop so often?

I do too, and I also know folks that still buy them. Oh they'd sell a lot more if they can get the Consumer Reports and JDP worshipers on board. No doubt.

M

lemko

I got to drive a new low-end CTS (2.8 V-6) back in August 2005. It really wasn't a bad car. It kind of reminded me of a miniaturized version of my Seville. Even with the small V-6 the car has a lot of pep. It also seems to be pretty solidly built. The interior looks austere but is actually made of pretty good bits and pieces. If there is anything I don't like, it's the foot-operated parking brake. Now, it's not like I prefer a hand brake, but they could've given the car an automatic parking brake release like my Seville STS and Brougham. This CTS has the same manually-operated unit used in my girlfriend's LaCrosse and her Dad's Impala. I hope they rectified this error for 2008.

62vetteefp

Looks like Cadillac has raised the bar for interior materials. The new SRX has cut and sew upper IP and door trim, unheard of in any vehicle under $85k and now has introduced it on CTS. Since these are their low priced vehicles in the line up the new STS will most likely have the same. One step in the direction of "standard of the world"?

300hp however is also the standard but jsut barely! Hope they are working on something better.

louiswei

0-60 in 4.8-5.3 window 300+ hp. with direct injection ????

You are dreaming, 5.5 sec at best 0-60

BTW, how much does this car weigh?

rockylee

Looks like Cadillac has raised the bar for interior materials. The new SRX has cut and sew upper IP and door trim, unheard of in any vehicle under $85k and now has introduced it on CTS.

62' I was thinking the same thing..... I thought the cut and sew on the IP was exclusive for luxury cars only

Since these are their low priced vehicles in the line up the new STS will most likely have the same. One step in the direction of "standard of the world"?

I'd expect nothing worse than the SLS pics we've seen posted here for the next STS. Cadillac is step by step becoming "The Standard of the World" once again :shades: Only a DTS and STS redo to go !!!

300hp however is also the standard but jsut barely! Hope they are working on something better.

Well if 300+ isn't enough you can always buy a CTS-V and get 600 horses but is that really enough ???? :P

Rocky

rockylee

I bet it's as fast as the G35 at or below 5.3

How much it weighs ? Well we haven't yet got that data.

Rocky

P.S. 300 horsepower isn't set in stone yet as it could have more we will find out in 45 minutes.

dhamilton

Well I hope for Rocky, Lemko, 1463 and other GM fans, that it is as good as advertised.

Merc is right. They need to consistently knock it out of the park. The last V for instance had nice power, but a crappy gearbox, and a steering wheel right out of a short bus.

Merely being competitive like $1474 says, just ain't gonna cut it for them to climb out of their self inflicted hole.

Now Rocky, don't go bragging to hard. GM can still do what they do best, and screw it all up. :P

Hey BTW, does anybody know if 1387 is like a rapper or something? I just figured with a name that has number in it, maybe he's an OG, or a gangsta, or something. You know, like fitty cent.

Maybe he's from Eminem's possey cause he likes Detroit?

rockylee

The first link below should work fine *LIVE* ......

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/ifr_main.jsp?nsid=a-5fdd9dea:1100201a696:-76ac&st=11682- - 64975562&mp=WMP&cpf=true&fvn=9&fr=010507_033447_w7c8d0189x10ff3f75cebxw79d3&rdm=- - 54138.08749638249

OR

http://www.gm.com/company/gm_exp_live/events/naias_2007/index_flash.html

:shades:

Rocky

rockylee

Now Rocky, don't go bragging to hard. GM can still do what they do best, and screw it all up.

If that's GM screwing up then I want more of those type of mistakes. :P

Rocky

rockylee

Dan,

Why are you picking on 1487, when the guy can't defend himself ???? Are you a back jumper :P

Rocky

anythngbutgm

Every "rah rah shish boom bah Go GM" has the odor of a salesman...

What happened over the weekend, jeeze, the forums lit up like a Christmas tree it seems. I can't keep up with all the new posts.

rockylee

I wonder if uncle Rick, is going to do the honors ?.....

Rocky

rockylee

:shades:

Rocky

62vetteefp

I like the quartet.

And the roadies who stole the violins!!

No too happy about the rest though. Good idea to let the people who did the car talk about it but theydid not put out enough info. Oh well, it will come.

At least what they did say was all great stuff.

rockylee

Agree.....I also was wishing for more details also. We will get em' like you said.

Rocky

bumpy

What are those knobs under the headlights? It looks like the car has mumps. Otherwise, it looks okay. Still needs some cleanup in the design details, but it's about a 90% car instead of the 70-75% of the first CTS.

mediapusher

What happened over the weekend, jeeze, the forums lit up like a Christmas tree it seems. I can't keep up with all the new posts.
---anythngbutgm
____________________________

What happened? We finally finished digesting the plethora of cakes, pies, cookies, coffee, ice cream , turkey, ham, green bean casserole, stuffing, fruit salad, etc., from multiple parties during shopping and with friends/family over the holidays and got back to real life...uugggh.
---mediapusher

anythngbutgm

lol. so true...

mediapusher

Rocky-

Unlike you I have my own brain, until I test drive the 2008 Cadillac CTS and see it for myself IN PERSON, I don't care what a review says until I know for myself if it fits my tastes and needs. AND, G.M. is notorious for creating a big media buzz and press "party" for something that turns out to be a dud. They did the same media blitz for cars like, The Buick Roadmaster (where is that now), the Buick Lucerne, Buick Lacrosse, Pontiac Aztek, Chevrolet Caprice Classic. All of those cars were/are flops.

Now I agree the new CTS will be riding on the success coat tails of the previous version, but not expecting someone to be skeptical based on the shoddy interior of previous models and terrible reputation of G.M. is ridiculous

Just like I'm not into what most people are doing just because most people happen to be doing it. I do what works for me. You apparently shop for a car with only your GENITALS.

For example reality shows are very popular on television right now. It doesn't mean that EVERYONE likes them just because a lot of people happen to watch them. They make some people puke.

---mediapusher
______________________________________

mediapusher-
Obviously you haven't read the "official" review on the 08' CTS by edmunds and other sites posted here ???.....Just to assist you here's some pics found here:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0efe1c/90

edmunds.com's (official review) w/ video

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=119071?tid=edmunds.il.ho- - -

So I'm not a bit worried about having my bubble bursted because I have the results and facts in hand.

This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR CAR

Rocky

rockylee

Whatever...... :confuse:

Rocky

62vetteefp

Lucerne a flop? it sold 100,000 vehicles last year. hardly a flop for a $30k up car. Avalon is more of a flop-did not even reach 90,000. Lexus ES also sold fewer at 75,000 units.

Roadmaster? You mean that huge RWD car of the past? It went away like all those cars did. The market changed and it was gone.

rockylee

WOW, the Lucerne did better than I thought.

Rocky

sls002

If I understand your post, then every car is going to be a flop when production comes to an end. For example, the Roadmaster became the Electra, which became the Park Avenue which is now a Lucerne. The Roadmaster came back in the early 90's and may reappear as a RWD zeta platform model under some new name.

While merc1 may consider the Allante a flop, I am not sure what Cadillac expected from the Allante, but sales were steady at around 3000 per year while it was in production. I don't think it really was profitable, but it was a prestige car for Cadillac, like the Eldorado Brougham, so it may have been worth it for the image. Both the Allante and Reatta were a new style of car for GM, the Reatta's sales did drop off for the last year, so my guess is that GM may have decided the market for them was not there.

The media always have their own point of veiw, and the media thought that the Allante should compete directly with the Mercedes SL. As merc1 has pointed out, the Allante's 4100 was no competition for the SL, except in the Mobil Fuel Economy Run: http://www.thompson-motorsports.com/econ.html

Was Packard or Pierce Arrow successful? Yes, for a time. Both have gone under. As has the Cord and other makes.

Perhaps the biggest flop at GM was Oldsmobile. It did take 100 years of production to end up a flop though...

bumpy

Lucerne a flop? it sold 100,000 vehicles last year. hardly a flop for a $30k up car.

How many of those Lucernes were the $24k 200hp V6 model? Those are the only ones I've ever seen, invariably driven by some old geezer or with an Enterprise sticker.

louiswei

Yeah, I would like to see how many Lucernes went to fleets.

BTW, as you may suspected, only a small percentage of the Avalons and hardly ANY of the ES350 went to fleets.

anythngbutgm

This is the list from mid-2006...
I can't find any links to full year numbers, they may not be tallied yet.

http://www.fleet-central.com/af/t_pop_pdf.cfm?action=stat&link=http://www.fleet-- central.com/af/stats2006/cars_web.pdf

rockylee

http://www.media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07naias/brands/cadillac/0- 7_NAIAS_Cadillac_%20CTS_Tech%20and%20Craftsmanship.htm

Here's the CTS's details......It does have a Bose 5.1

Rocky