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-Rocky
How do these facts fit into your scenario? Or is Consumer Reports now accepting bribes from Ford, despite its status as a domestic company?
That's the thing with conspiracy theories - they fall apart so quickly with an application of the facts.
For comparison, my 2007 SRX got about 20 MPG on a long highway trip, but it was still kind of new. I get about 18 MPG in day to day driving, although now that winter has set in (where did global warming go :P ) I seem to be getting more like 17.
CR started liking anything small that got good gas mileage. I recall a neighbor having a little Fiat that looked like a Rabbit which was built later. I recall laughing because I'd see it towed home or see it along the highway into the city; apparently that person commuted to work 30 miles each way and wanted the small car and the gas mileage.
At that time GM (and others) didn't produce anything at all light, small, simple, basic, and economical. Somehow the heads at the Big Three couldn't reconfigure building a car on a frame to give small and light. That led to companies who could supply small, light, siimple, cheap, economical an opening. Then things like Vega were attempted with flaws. Flaws were okay for some of the foreign brands, but flaws were fatal to the Vega. I believe GM built a whole new factory at Lordstown, Ohio, to build the Vega. I rode in a Vega later. It reminds me of a friend's CVCC 1978 that died everytime it was driven in a rainstorm and had to parked and retrieved the next day.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I suspect Japanese could do a much better job. CR seems to have always approved of the Japanese in a protective way, so th t would be the obvious foreign country. Of course the new producers could always start an office here so they could say CR is still US written.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I was pleasantly surprised when CR gave the first model year Fusion such a good review, didn't know Ford had that much money...
Come on onlygmmatters, Rocky has forthrightly documented his belief in/support of GM (family works for the General). Do you work for 'em? Are you one of Roger Smith's family??? Or one of Rocky's family? Inquiring minds want to know...
GM built/imported a bunch of cars that weren't up to the competition in many areas for a long time. Things are getting better, but it'll take time to clear that bad taste. But, hopefully it's happening...
Friend had a '71 Vega. Lots of problems, finally sold it. The day the new owners were coming to pick it up, the engine wouldn't start. Then, when if finally turned over, it caught fire! Friend throws dirt from driveway to put out fire, cleans up engine buy, buyers arrive and drive the car away... Good times, good times...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I could consider the Buick if it really is a DTS in disguise, as I want a larger car like my Crown Vic...so far the DTS seems to be what I seek, but if GM has made the same thing in a "cheaper knockoff", that would be sweet...
I am not an avid reader of Consumer Reports, but as I recall, all those thousands of black dots that GM has hoarded over the years are from "consumers" of their products citning ownership problems. Duh.
And now we have GM fans criticizing the work conditions and unfair labor practices of Korean manufacturers. These are the same GM owners that fill the parking lot and do their weekly shopping at Wal Mart, I assume?
Look, whether I am running my company, being a parent to my children, or competing on the golf course or baseball field with my buddies, if I'm not getting the results I want, I look to what I can do better. I have heard these BS excuses as to why GM, Ford and Chrysler have failed for decade after decade. Let me tell you GM apologists something. There is hardly a successful American business that hasn't had to face the same or tougher conditions than the "Big Three" have. And the successful ones don't make excuses. They figure out what it's going to take to win and go out there and do it.
How many times have I pointed out that GE builds the best damn locomotives in the world? And now the best wind turbines. Among a few thousand other products. Boeing builds the best planes in the world in spite of competing with consortiums of other governments. Deere & Caterpillar build the best tractors and heavy industrial equipment. They do it with union labor, no less. Apple has gone from the celler to a company worht about 7 times the market value of Ford and GM combined. You think any of them had it easy compared to GM who took an oligopolic position in the US auto industry and pissed it away? Bull.
My New Year resolution is not to say anything specifically negative about any product without first trying it out myself. So here's hoping I am pleasantly surprised by the CTS and/or some other GM products in 2008. But for those of you who would look at the past and see conspiracy or look at the present and make excuses (or predictions that the next model will be the savior) I hope you also remove your blinders and realize that all three of the Big Three have exhibited behavior worthy of sending your kids to bed without dinner. For a long time. And nobody should be an apologist for that. It's un-American.
In any event, differences of opinion aside, Happy New Year to all.
The black dots are CR's interpretation of the unknown number of reports from "subscribers" on those particular cars. Their interpretation is viewed in the lense of their opinion of the car to start with.
Also the reports are not from a random survey. They are somewhat like telephone call in polls on Channel 12 about topics where people call in or don't call in depending on their motivation and emotion on the topic.
One thing that seems to be consistent is that there is little difference among the problem numbers of cars in the top half of the surveys of JD Powers or CR. There used to be a statistical, meaningful difference, but that's no longer true. You're as likely to have more problems than average with one car as you might with another car; and you're likely to have fewer problems.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
HO northstar
base northstar
Moreover, their trim info is simply crap, especially on smaller brands/low volume trims. One of the fastest cars in its class (Subaru Legacy GT) has data lumped together with its basic engine version (that is not so hot, admittedly) and then represented as two circles. Yet - the website selection is done in such a way that it suggest that the data was unique to the fast trim (you choose brand/model/trim and then results show up). This is not even zero value - it's simply misleading. The data gathering procedures may be scientific, but their surveys are designed and processed by (lets be civil here)... people who know nothing about cars.
And, by the way I also got several of surveys from them (not on cars - on house and appliances). Responded to some, did not to others. Same as in CR's subscribers.
Both surveys have their flaws. CRs may be pool of the surveyed (however, with large volume brands I trully doubt it is a real problem), but JD Power has MAJOR issues with their survey structure and processing procedures. I have seen questionnaires from both. CRs has a single focus on reliability (as what breaks and how often), leaving the car design rating up to its staff reviewers (who do have their preferences - which happen to be very different than mine, btw), JD Power's is about "everything" - which wouldn't be wrong if they did not lump it later as "quality rating".
As a result I look at my own impressions and magazines for all the subjective criteria (design, ride) and performance, then I look at CR for guidance about utility and little details that might drive you nuts (like cargo space design, console ergonomics, etc.) and possible issues to assess possible upkeep cost. Then I would look at websites for hard data like gas mileage, acceleration, etc. As mentioned, JD Power may factor in only as "people seem to like Buicks and Lexi" - but I'm not people, so JD Power is really minor value to me.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I filled out at least three different questionaires on my 2007 SRX.
If anything JP Power is useful for it is capturing general brand impressions (call it satisfaction) of those new car owners within first few years of ownership and perhaps some good info about the warranty work rate. However, when it comes to detailed ratings for particular trim levels, they turn into crap, as I showed above. There is no use in results that lump results of different trims, yet pretend that those are actually unique to the one you are considering - especially if trims are very different from each other.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I am not suggesting that Consumer Reports information is totally useless. I think that one can look through the last several years of information and see what kinds of problems CR subscribers have had with their cars. This is not always consistent from year to year though, so trying to pick the best car is not easy.
When I needed to replace a dishwasher, I realized that I did not really know anything about dishwashers, so I went to the library to look through Consumers Reports to see what I could find. I also talked to a reputable store's salesperson and found that what he said and what CR said were opposite. I finally decided CR was useless.
Not all cars or model years have all the JD Power ratings listed at Edmunds, so your ride may not be included.
After all, in three years, there is usually enough time for the owner to screw something up by not maintaining it, such as oil changes or other items...stuff that would never show up in 90 days...
90 days, however, would be good to expose those vehicles made or built so poorly, that the 90 day period is anough for folks to avoid them like the plague...after all, if too much breaks in 90 days, we have a major problem...
3 years is, at least, a reasonbale time for many things to break down, things that should last 50-100K miles...is it perfect???...no, but if engines and trannies are blowing, and brakes are failing, all in 3 years, that, too, does indicate something...
YMMV...
I don't think that CR is far-fetched at all.
I have subscribed to CR as well as Car and Driver, Road and Track, Autoweek, etc for many years. While it is true that the car magazines put a heavier emphasis on handling/performance than does CR, there is much commonality in reporting of the attributes of vehicles and test findings between all of these magazines. CR's take on vehicles is pretty much in line with the car magazines. And, CR's rank ordering of vehicles generally follows the comparos in Car and Driver and other car magazines.
When GM, Cadillac and other American brands produce vehicles that beat the leading foreign brands, CR will report accordingly.
X,
All I can say is puff, puff, pass, pal !!! :P
-Rocky
I peruse mags in waiting rooms and I'm amazed at how much interest there is in Bentlys, Lamgorghinis, Mazarattis, etc. I recall one where they took two special models to Norway or somewhere nearby to test them. Well, actually the cars were probably there and they used that as a vacation excuse to go test them in the cold... One was a Special Model of a Bently. I can't recall the other.
That they're of no interest to me as a purchaser, and of no interest to 99.9% of the population of the US, makes no difference. A certain demographic reads those avidly.
I don't recall they gave an reliability information on any of the exclusive cars about which I have read in waiting room magazines.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As I said - there is a value in JD Power study - just as everything else it should not be considered some kind of Oracle or Bible. It has flaws, as everything else - some of them are actually quite major.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
All conspiracy theories are great until they simply fall apart... Then of course new conspiracy theories emerge - usually from the same people. So I'm waiting Rocky - please elighten me on the new conspiracy from CR ditching Toyota and praising Ford. Please?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
They all do long-term tests, for them maybe one year. So, true, one cannot get a measure of reliability over say 6 years as can be found in CR and their data base of readers' experiences.
I have found generally that C&D, R&T, Autoweek are spot-on in their assessments of car performance as pertains to handling, braking, steering, power, etc as well as other attribures such as fit and finish, interior, etc. as compared to my own observations when looking at and test driving new cars.
What I have found as non-reliable sources of information about cars are friends, relatives, neighbors, work associates who are 100 percent American brand advocates. They have no actual experience of ownership of multitudes of brands (American and foreign). Many refuse to even test drive anything other than an American brand. How can they possibly have an informed opinion about cars/vehicles.
In previous tests of Cadillacs, not 08 Cadillac CTS, I have seen CR rate Cad in about the same relative rank as other magazines' comparos. A number of testers of different magazines have come to the same relative conclusions about Cadillac with regards to other cars in its class. The 08 CTS excluded, I don't ever recall seeing any Cadillac rated at or near the top over last couple of decades in any magazine.
Going forward, when we start to see a consensus view from CR, car magazines, Edmunds and similar that rate Cadillac as number one then perhaps Cadillac might be called the Standard of the World. An example of consensus on a standard has been/is the BMW 3 Series.
I do not believe there is some conspiracy at CR or any other mag. I actually have some inside knowledge on how CR works. They have a definite "bias" toward the type of cars they like. This may or may not line up with mine or your personal likes/dislikes but they call it the way they see it in their eyes. I can name a couple they really like and that is the Civic and Accord. They like the size, handling and the "green" image Honda has. Other vehicles that do not match their likes have a harder time getting a recommended buy. Took years of data to get the Century / Regal in their. Just too soft of a ride for their tastes. But the couple years of top reliability data just made them recommend them.
As far as Toyota, with all the news on their quality and recalls, CR did not have much choice but to stop giving them passes.
J. D. Powers does a random survey of some reasonable percentage of the 10,000 or so copies of said vehicle to determine the number of breakdowns that the owners have had. Using the responses J. D. Powers ranks vehicles from good to bad. Consumer Reports (for a very long time - longer than J. D. Powers) does not do a random survey of owners, but does get as much information from their subscribers as possible on the vehicles they happen to own. If all of CR's subscribers submit information (probably not the case), then CR should have an unbiased random selection of each manufacturers vehicles to evaluate. However, as I suspect is the case, only some of CR's subscribers bother to report, and probably the ones who do have a problem to report, while the trouble free vehicles are under reported. The basic question that I have about CR's surveys is what percentage of the subscribers actually report year in and year out. If more than 90% do, then they probably have a fairly good data set.
No reason to scream bloody hell just because somebody happens to like different things (and they say upfront what they like). You can always open your own "We like soft suspensions and flat seats" magazine. Judging by amount of emotion expressed here at those who beg to disagree, it should sell in big volumes ...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Wrong. I believe Automobile or R&T made upper-midsize luxury with V6 test last year (A6, 530, E320, CTS, V80, S-type, and couple of others) and CTS was rated higest, mostly due to value. I remember being very surprised seing that.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I think the essence of what J. D. Power's does is found here:
LongTermReliabilityfor2004
The rankings show that GM has two makes above average, while Pontiac, GMC and Chevy are below average, but close to average. Saturn is significantly below average. Buick is very good and Cadillac is well above average.
This does not mean that any car that you might buy won't be much worse than average though.
As far as Toyota, with all the news on their quality and recalls, CR did not have much choice but to stop giving them passes.
I completely agree.....So somebody had to fill the void so the more reliable better built domestics naturally filled the hole where a Toyota, once automatically was placed.
-Rocky
There are so many other choices. Even if their conspiracy to taut Toyota fell apart, they still could choose tons of imports before admitting something domestic being most reliable and recommended. I mean - if there is a real vast anti-domestic conspiracy (is it right wing or left wing?), as you would like us to believe. Or - is it just anti-GM?
Wow - what did GM do to all these milions people who dare to refuse to buy their most wondeful product? Or lets narrow it - what did they do to media and CR that Ford gets a pass now and they still can't? I just can't stop wondering... Oh - I have an idea! Perhaps their product is not so great, after all. No - that is impossible. GM has always performed to best of its ability, both in design and manufacturing (with huge help of UAW, of course). And we know their best is the worlds best. It's in the Constitution. So it must be something else...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
So for "under-reporting", then Hondas and Lexi are probably actually better than CR indicates. Maybe these cars should have a higher, more magnificent color schemes than red circles. :P
The simple fact is that, for years, Toyota and Honda have garnered the top slots in Consumer Report' reliability surveys. They earned this distinction by consistently producing reliable vehicles across the board. From the magazine's standpoint, it made sense to give their new or dramatically redesigned models a "pass" when it came to predicting reliability.
This is not proof of a bias or bribery. If it has snowed on Christmas Day in Pennsylvania for the past 20 years, it is not much of a stretch to say, "We will have a white Christmas in Pennsylvania this year, too." That is not evidence of bias or a conspiracy with the manufacturers of snow blowers and sleds. If it DOESN'T snow on Christmas, that proves the folly of using the past to predict the future.
Realistically, the magazine should never have given new Toyotas this "pass" in the first place. (It shouldn't do this for Honda, either.) No model should receive a reliability rating until it has been in the hands of customers, whether it comes from Honda, BMW, GM or VW.
As for the "more reliable, better built domestics naturally filling the hole where a Toyota was once automatically placed" - which ones would that be?
Even with Toyota's recent reliability snafus, it still ranks third among all manufacturers in the reliability survey, behind Honda and Subaru. Ford, not GM or Chrysler, is the one that has shown steady, consistent improvements, and the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan and Lincoln MKZ have earned top-notch reliability ratings. GM's rankings still aren't all that spectacular.
Most of GM's domestic brands are near average (see JDPower link above) except for Saturn.
How may they be biased? And then, how would that manifest itself into the CR magazine?
Trying to think of scenarios. Would a GM loyalist, who also is a CR subscriber, under-report problems he/she is having with a Cadillac to be loyal to the brand? Or, would a loyalist or Cadillac fan, who also might have a relative working for GM/Cadillac, deceptively report zero problems/issues on the survey? Is this a possible way that a reader would show bias?
I think magazines that feature exotic cars sell because that is what many people dream about having but seldom attain. I doubt Playboy magazine would sell very well if Miss January was a slightly overweight 30-something single mother with two kids.
If CR subscribers are biased, then it stands to reason that J D Power is probably surveying biased owners too.
Then we have those CR owners. Those morons can't get anything right. They read all those terrible biased magazines (besides CR of course) and despite obvious of artistry of GM (Ford or else) design and UAW assembly, they happen to go for those small uncomfortable foreign cars made of cardboard. When they buy them, their engines are blowing up left and right but those people would never report it to CR. Even if they did, CR probably throws those bad import surveys away anyway, so what's the point? They are very happy to pay up the dealer for all the unnecessary maintenance. Every day they think of new schemes to deprive those superqualified fork operators at Dearborn or Flynt of their well-deserved money in the job bank for sitting and watching TV all day long.
Then there is is a small minority: a very strange subgroup of CR subscribers that buys domestics. Nobody really understands them. They buy what they know is crap and then they are most eager to confirm it on the survey. Actually they probably buy it for the very opportunity to slam it in that survey. They report every single small rattle and squick - something a Honda buyer would never do. CR must be paying them some secret money for the sacrifice they make. Moreover, unlike Honda owners, they never change oil in their car, then complain about engine blowout (Honda owner would never do that). It is obvious now: those people are really something. They probably are some kind of masochists.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It was just announced that GM killed the new DOHC V8 days after the new mpg rules were signed. Guess they have to make severe changes to meet the new requirements. Also BMW and Mercedes are being fined for not meeting the old 2007 requirements. Will they continue to thumb their noses at the US government or do something to meet requirements? I guess they could continue building gas guzzlers and just charge the porky rich customers the fine. You know, let the everyday man make the compromises to get us out of the oil addiction and rich cats keep porking away. :P
So you are right we do need to buy American...but for the right reasons. If the Americans finally get it and are putting out decent cars then we all have to forget about the cars that the Americans were building 10 years ago and look at the products they are building now. As Americans, we don't owe it to GM, Ford or Chrysler to buy their car just because. But we do need to not exclude the American cars just because they are American. If you are in the market for a car, then stop by the American dealers to have a look. If you are in the market for an Accord or Camry level vehicle, then look at the Mailbu as well. If you are in the market for a G35 or a TL or a 3 Series, then include the Cadillac CTS in the running. And if the American car is really nice against the competitors, then buy it.
Since this is a Cadillac forum, lets talk about Cadillac a little:
I have been driving a truck for many years. IN the market for a new sedan. So I have spent alot of time looking at mid range sedans like the G35 TL, 3 Series and Cadillac CTS, and frankly, Personally, IMHO, I'm impressed with the new 2008 Cadilly CTS. The car looks sharp. Very little not to like.
I want to buy an entry level luxury sedan. Really if I can only afford a Honda Camry or Mailbu then I will just buy the most practical. Its just transportation. But for something a little fun, a little more upscale? Here is my short list:
1) The G35 is really nice and is still on my short short list.
2) The TL is OK, Honda quality and all... but kinda boring and old in the tooth when compared to the 2008 CTS. And I prefer the rear-wheel drive for a sports sedan.
3)The 3 Series is and always will be a BMW. Obviously the ratings are high. Driving dynamics second to none. Theres the chance that when I drive it on decision day, that I will just fall under its spell? But fact is, the 3 Series sedan looks on the small side compared to the CTS. I mean, if I were still in my 20's, I probably would get the 3 Series. But for guys in their 30's and 40's, the CTS is just more of a car. For guys in their 30's and 40's driving a 3 Series, IMHO, it looks like you wanted a BMW and just couldn't afford the 5 Series. Sorry if that offends anyone. Lets put it this way. If you have to pick up an important client at the airport, the CTS is just more of a car that the 3 series. As many of the reviews say, the CTS competes against the 3 series in price, but is more the size of the 5 series. Thats a pretty accurate view.
4) The 2008 Cadillac CTS is pretty impressive from both the exterior and the interior. Looks like a $50,000 car. The interior is hands down the best of all four of these cars. And great performance, no not quite as good as the 3 Series or the G35, but close enough for me. I will probably trade that little extra performance edge for a quiet nice all around ride. Just looks more expensive that any of the other cars I listed. GM did a nice job.
All of these cars have something good to offer. Something extraordinary that the others don't have. But the point is that the CTS, no doubt, has what it takes to compete. So on that Saturday afternoon, when you go out with an itch to buy an entry level luxury sedan, stop by all the dealerships including the Cadillac dealer with an open mind. And then buy the car you like the best.
I know that and yes I believe CR, is bought and paid for just like all the other car mags. So yes I do believe in the CR conspiracy theory of them giving free passes based on past history without testing the new products. Well they (CR) said they aren't going to do that with Yota's anymore.
As far as Ford, goes they do not rankvery high on the reliability charts with JD
Power. Maybe Ford Jr. gave CR's staff luxury suits at Ford Field, to watch my Lydowns play a little football for exchange of a favorable review on some of their cars :confuse: :P
-Rocky
I hope you don't really believe that. :surprise: The CR bible might not have advertisements but the automakers know the dots/circles work like advertisements for the masses thus it's a good use of advertising dollars for the automakers.
-Rocky
We are a little to honest to have to lie about our cars problems. A buddy of mine filled out a favorable review several years ago on his Accord, and when I questioned him he tried to down play it.
-Rocky