Performance Oriented Factory Tuner Automobiles
I want this car forum to include the Lincoln MKZ, Cadillac CTS, and CTS-V, STS, STS-V, Lincoln MKS, BMW 335i, M3, M5 G35, VW Passat, Audi A4, S4, Holden-Pontiac Grand Prix/G8, etc etc etc. since the MKZ and CTS-V weren't allowed in the
"entry-level performance luxury sedan" forum :confuse:
Rocky
"entry-level performance luxury sedan" forum :confuse:
Rocky
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Rocky
The Infiniti G35, Acura TL, Lincoln MKZ, and both current and 08' CTS offer the 335i its stiff est competition. The Infiniti G35 with its 306 RWD horsepower offers the driver 80-90% of the performance for thousands less.
The Lincoln MKZ, is another FWD vehical alternative to the 335i. You get a beautiful interior with lots of gadgets including a segment leading 14-speaker THX II certified DVD-A surround sound system. You also get the only ventilated seats in the segment if you don't count the Saab 9-5. The MKZ fully loaded with AWD is priced at $37K which is still $2K cheaper than a stripped bargain basement BMW 335i.
The Acura TL Type-S is another vehical option for consumers to consider if they have to drive in the snow. It's FWD drivetrain along with a set of snow shoes will help. The TL Type-S also comes standard with a manual transmission.
The Cadillac CTS, is still a hot selling alternative. It can be equipped with a 3.6 "High Feature" V-6 and be teamed to a 6-speed manual transmission. it also can get into the $40's when you start clicking the option box. The CTS-V is a 6.0 LS-2 V-8 with 400 hp. It comes with only one option sport shocks otherwise it's fully loaded. If you cross shop a fully loaded 335i to a CTS-V the "V" will only be $1K more MSRP. But everybody knows you will be able to purchase the "V" thousands cheaper than a fully loaded 335i where BMW will be asking at or near MSRP. The 2008' Cadillac CTS is rumored to have anywhere from 280-320hp. The new and improved 3.6 V-6 will finally have Delphi's direct injection system. The 2008-2009' Cadillac CTS-V has been rumored to have either the 7.0 LS-7 V-8 with 500-600 hp. The other engine is a supercharged or turbocharged 4.6 Northstar pushing north of 500hp. When both of these cars come on line they are expected to exceed BMW, because GM engineers were told to exceed the BMW 3 series and if you've seen video footage such as I have you will see BMW's following the Caddy test mule around the track.
So feel free to add any comments, disagreements, agreements, and I promise to not make it personal.
Rocky
Rocky
It wasn't necessary the demise of the BMW 3 series kdshapiro, but rather something that will exceed what all BMW's do very well. They are the benchmark. Over a year ago I was reading Cadillac, was testing the new CTS mule to the BMW 330i. I'm sure they had a wrench throwin' into their plans when BMW, revealed the new and improved Twin-Turbocharged 335i. If my memory serves me correct the new CTS, was suppose to come out this fall but obviously the new 335i, changed those plans and thus caused a year delay.
Rocky
Well thats part of the problem. Just because some of y'all don't think the MKZ belongs in the entry-level luxury performance segment y'all went out of your way to band it from the board.
I brought up the Cadillac CTS-V as a BMW 335i competitor and gave a argument for it and y'all found every excuse in the world to not have it allowed on the forum also.
What I'm coming up with is some of y'all will find a reason/excuse for any vehical that rivals or exceeds a BMW's performance and/or luxury and ban it from the forum.
That's fine. If you want to have a forum with all like minded "BMW Lovers" only people then I suppose you succeeded. Y'all only allow competition when it's clear the BMW trumps it. Wow, that sounds like fun. It's like playing poker and stacking the deck. I and other posters aren't afraid of a good debate.
Happy Posting
Rocky
So the question remains is both the Volkswagon Passat, and Audi A4, performance oriented luxury sedans ?
I say YES at least to the Passat. I'm undecided on the Audi A4 :confuse:
Rocky
1. The Entry Lux Performance Sedan board is not a "BMW Lovers" board. Me myself is not a "BMW Lover". Although it's hard for you to believe according to my posts the last couple days but if you see my debates with blueguydotcom earlier this year you'll believe me. Also, if I am a "BMW Lover" like you stated why would I go for a IS350 instead of the 330i. Makes no sense, right?
2. The reasons why MOST OF US think that the CTS-V and MKZ don't belong in the other board are DIFFERENT. MKZ failed to qualify because it does not meet the performance part of the requirement. No one would deny that the Lincoln offers plenty of standard and optional luxury but it is NOT a performance sedan. Is it faster than most other 4 doors on the road? Yes. But is it a performance-oriented sedan? NO. The ES350 does not make the list due to the same reason. However, if you want to debate which one is better between the MKZ and ES350 I'd love to do so.
3. CTS-V failed to qualify because it is a factory-tuned special model based on its entry level sedan. Same reason why the M, AMG and Audi's S and RS are not qualified as well. Of course, it'll be unfair to Cadillac if we include the M, AMG, S and RS but not the -V. However, we agreed that all the special models listed above should not be included in the list so in no way we are discriminating against the CTS-V. Also, you can make a case that the loaded 335i cost almost as much as the CTS-V but the BOTTOM LINE is that if someone besides YOU wants a base 335i, he/she can have it for under $40K. On the other hand, it is NOT POSSIBLE to get a CTS-V for under $50K.
4. Employee discount is totally irrelavent in a discussion. Since you work for GM you'll be able to get a GM car for less. Same applies for someone works for BMW and Toyota. He or she will be able to get into a 335i or IS350 for less than you and me. Since you want to compare cars fair and square then let's make it as equal as possible. Bring in the GM employee discount into discussion can only damage your credibility and show your bias toward GM.
5. Members in the Entry Lux Performance Sedan board do not ban cars that exceed a BMW's performance. I will use the IS350 example to back up my statement. When the IS was introduced late last year it was consider the straight line performance benchmark of the class. It totally destroyed the then 330i in the 0-60 times (sounds familiar? Hint: CTS-V). However, as you can see from top of the other board, the IS350 was still listed as one of the cars on the list. Even though many members have issues with IS's "relatively" soft suspension and the unavailability of a manual tranny but that's subjective to debates. The bottom line is we in the Entry Lux Performance Sedan board do not ban cars that exceed a BMW's performance.
Hope that'll clear things out a bit for you.
Okay, fair enough.
1. The Entry Lux Performance Sedan board is not a "BMW Lovers" board. Me myself is not a "BMW Lover". Although it's hard for you to believe according to my posts the last couple days but if you see my debates with blueguydotcom earlier this year you'll believe me. Also, if I am a "BMW Lover" like you stated why would I go for a IS350 instead of the 330i. Makes no sense, right?
I don't know ?....Perhaps you got a deal you couldn't refuse on the IS 350 ?....Perhaps you wanted a little gadgetology to go along with straightline performance ???.....blueguydotcom, from what I gather is a true blue BMW lover. Nothing wrong with that I suppose.
2. The reasons why MOST OF US think that the CTS-V and MKZ don't belong in the other board are DIFFERENT. MKZ failed to qualify because it does not meet the performance part of the requirement. No one would deny that the Lincoln offers plenty of standard and optional luxury but it is NOT a performance sedan. Is it faster than most other 4 doors on the road? Yes. But is it a performance-oriented sedan? NO. The ES350 does not make the list due to the same reason. However, if you want to debate which one is better between the MKZ and ES350 I'd love to do so.
It fails to meet the performance part ? It will nose out a Acura TL, Audi A4, in acceleration. I'd love to debate the ES350 vs. MKZ, anytime.
3. CTS-V failed to qualify because it is a factory-tuned special model based on its entry level sedan.
What in the hell do you call the BMW 335i ? It is nothing more than a factory-tuned BMW 330i or 328i. I honestly can't see the difference. It has to have a M or V label to be considered factory tuned. That's a bunch of B.S. IMHO louiswei.
Same reason why the M, AMG and Audi's S and RS are not qualified as well. Of course, it'll be unfair to Cadillac if we include the M, AMG, S and RS but not the -V. However, we agreed that all the special models listed above should not be included in the list so in no way we are discriminating against the CTS-V. Also, you can make a case that the loaded 335i cost almost as much as the CTS-V but the BOTTOM LINE is that if someone besides YOU wants a base 335i, he/she can have it for under $40K. On the other hand, it is NOT POSSIBLE to get a CTS-V for under $50K.
Okay, but it's like cheating because BMW, is a "options" company. Most car company's would be looked down upon if they did this type of buisness. Acura, offers like two trim packages for each model to keep it simple. This is the direction GM, is headed but not quite as severe as Acura.
Question: Does the Acura TL Type-S qualify for the forum ?
-I've seen plenty of people talk about this car as a player on the forum.
4. Employee discount is totally irrelavent in a discussion. Since you work for GM you'll be able to get a GM car for less. Same applies for someone works for BMW and Toyota. He or she will be able to get into a 335i or IS350 for less than you and me. Since you want to compare cars fair and square then let's make it as equal as possible. Bring in the GM employee discount into discussion can only damage your credibility and show your bias toward GM.
I DON'T work for General Motors or ever have. :confuse: My family does work for GM, but as a former owner of a 2005' Acura TL, that should prove I am not as biased as you think.
5. Members in the Entry Lux Performance Sedan board do not ban cars that exceed a BMW's performance. I will use the IS350 example to back up my statement. When the IS was introduced late last year it was consider the straight line performance benchmark of the class. It totally destroyed the then 330i in the 0-60 times (sounds familiar? Hint: CTS-V). However, as you can see from top of the other board, the IS350 was still listed as one of the cars on the list. Even though many members have issues with IS's "relatively" soft suspension and the unavailability of a manual tranny but that's subjective to debates. The bottom line is we in the Entry Lux Performance Sedan board do not ban cars that exceed a BMW's performance.
Hope that'll clear things out a bit for you.
Well like I said and I'm still convinced y'all in that board have set the guidlines in a way that limits conversation of other vehicals. That is why I started this forum so we can talk about more than 335i, G35, IS350, because those are the only true players in y'alls strict guidelines. Everything else isn't worth a hoot even mentioning.
I hope you see where myself and others are coming from and understand why some of us were frusterated with the entry-level luxury performance forum.
Rocky
P.S. Stop by anytime.
$36K sounds like the ideal price for me.
What do y'all think? Am I the only one to have issue with it?
Not to be a jerk, but I thought factory high-performance tuned cars weren't allowed in the entry-level luxury performance sedan forum ???? :P
As to your question louiswei, I owned a 2005' Acura TL Anthracite, 6-speed manual, Navi, Summer Tires. The MSRP was $36K and change. I paid $33K. I thought at the time it was the best deal on the market because of the technology offered in the car. The Lexus IS 350, I was looking at was $47K with pre-collision, and sport suspension pkg. I was going to settle for a non-sport suspension pkg. IS 350 if my memory serves me correctly it was like $2-3K cheaper so I'd still be at $44-45K.
I loved the design of the IS 350 but having one kid in a car seat and another one on the way I decided to get the roomier Acura TL. The Texas, Lexus dealers wouldn't budge off the MSRP. I think my best offer was $1K off MSRP but of course this car was brand new to the market and I would of had to wait for them to get the color Black with tan leather interior in. I also started figuring it up and the TL, made dollars and sense for me because I could get it for about $12K less. So is the TL-Type-S FWD er over-priced IMHO ? I'd say NO ! You get alot of car for your money and I'd be willing to bet you could knock $3-4K off MSRP. I'm not sure what current Lexus dealers are knocking off on MSRP but I'd be willing to bet it won't be as much as the acura dealers.
If you are a big Acura TL, fan then why not wait another 2 years for the rumored SH-AWD TL with over 300hp ? I hear some people throwing around 330hp. for the next TL. If something around that number becomes true the TL, could be a benchmark car. I know I will be drooling over it if they don't ruin that Alfa design they have working for them now.
Just my $0.02
Rocky
It no longer matters what vehicles are "allowed" or not in the other discussion because you can talk about all of them here.
Sorry for any misunderstanding. Please email me if you want to continue this conversation.
Wanna compare interiors...why pick on the 335i since we all know (except blueguydotcom) that it's interior is not top notch in the class. Where the 335i truly shines is in the performance department.
MKZ:
IS350:
G35:
TL:
335i:
We don't hate the MKZ, it just doesn't belong in the "Entry Luxury Performance Sedan" class.
The interior preference is purely subjective and Lincoln would surely be glade that some of y'all like the MKZ's interior. For me, I prefer TL and IS350's.
Like I said, the best way to settle if MKZ "belongs" or not is to put it against the also-no-manual-tranny IS350 on a track. Just to make the competiton more fair, the driver of the IS350 shouldn't be allow to use his/her paddle shifter since the MKZ doesn't even have a steptronic tranny :surprise: even though it's a POS.
Where's the Audi, interior ? Well some of us don't want to go blinde. :P
The CTS-V, IMHO is the benchmark of the performance oriented sedans and in 2008' I believe the new CTS will be very competitive if not class leading against the competition such as the IS 350, 335i, G35, and of course MKZ. The next CTS-V, will continue it's performance dominance over the M cars because it can out muscle them.
I will also say this I wished BMW, wouldn't of ruined a beautiful design exterior and interior like they had going in the last generation of BMW's. The E36? M3 sedan was one of the most striking cars in the world. I do see some hope in the 2008' M3. I don't know if it was the angle or photo but the the M3 looked pretty good and not so funky.
Rocky
Rocky
With that said, lets compare price vs. hp/std.options, the MKZ can be a reference, and lets see what bargain hunters think:
(Prices taken from the websites of each respectfully)
Lincoln MKZ MSRP starts at $29K,263hp.(base model in leather,heated seats,leather with wood interior,sporty tuned suspension ,4yr/50K mi.btb warrantee,6yr/70Kmi powertrain war.etc.etc...)
BMW 335i MSRP starts at $39K, 300hp.(difference +$10K,+37hp)
BMW 328xi MSRP starts at $35K,230hp (diff.+$6K, -33hp)
Lexus IS 350 MSRP starts at $36K, 306hp (diff.+$7K,+42hp)
Infiniti G35 base MSRP starts at $32K, 306hp (+3K,+42hp)
Acura TL MSRP starts at $33K,258hp (+4K, -5hp)
Acura TL-S MSRP $36K, 286hp (+7K, +23hp)
Mercedes C230, 201hp, $30K (+1K,-62hp)
Mercedes C280, 228hp, $34K (+5K,-35hp)
Mercedes C350, 268hp, $39K (+10K, +5hp)
Cadillac CTS 2.8L $30K, 210hp (+1K, -53hp)
Cadillac CTS 3.5L $33K, 255hp (+4K, -8hp)
Rocky is the Cadillac stats correct ? Could you list the CTS-V price vs. hp./std.options for us ?
No wonder louiswei wants to race, her IS 350 is a minimum +7K more and +42hp than the MKZ. But it looks like the Infiniti G35 delivers 306hp also but at $4K less. Now to go and test drive them to see the differences.
Flash 11
Have you actually compare each interior's fit and finish other than just solely depend on the pictures?
Ah, why bother....
Click the sunroof, XM, shock absorbers and you are at $54,630. You can also get run flats at a additional $550 and if you like you can switch out by request for Goodyear F-1's. The engine block heaer is the only other option at $100. So at a $54K MSRP not counting the discount and/or rebate one can get at the time. Bottom-line you can get a very competitive BMW M car at a fully loaded BMW 335i price.
Rocky
If I want the best bang for the buck I'll go for the TL and G35. However, I choose to spend the extra $5K for the smooth V6 and class-leading interior fit and finish.
Have a great day.
Still havent test ridden a MKZ yet I see. Too bad for you.
Here is my assessment of the test ride for:
Lincoln MKZ-midsize V6 Lincoln $35K MSRP fully loaded with all options,sales are good right now for this model, stiff steering, solid car,no noise, it does lack sportyness compared to a TL-S but is still luxurious for most people not biased. I can get a 2007 MKZ for approx.$33K due a employee discount, my friend works there.
Acura TL-S-midsize V6 $38K fully loaded-this car is a beast-great car, definately has luxurious interior,loved the comfortable seats, and the ride is excellent although it wobbled up and down when driving fast-salesman said it was delivered just off the truck and the mechanics had to adjust the wheels or something. Salesman also said he would give free oil changes for 4 years and free tires for life. Wow, I wonder what the maintenance costs are after 4 years. Dashboard lit up like a christmas tree with red and blue LED lighting, nice touch. Definately beats out the MKZ in terms of performance and luxury and a modern look. I bargained for a 2006 fully loaded for $33K. I will test drive this one again and try to convince myself buying Japanese does not hurt US workers or economy (8 plants closed, 30000 workers laid off this year alone). It amazes me that other US automakers have not caught on to this segment of car and produced something that can compete at its price range.
By the way the Sebring will have a retractible hard top late in 2007. Chrysler is trying hard but the Sebring looks middle of the road. They should adopt the Sema Sebring hood and other refinements.
Also liked the VW Eos 3.2L 250hp.$37-38K, good on gas mileage 22/32mpg, nice luxurious seating, little room in back seats for passengers, car looks beautiful,dash looks plain but still comes with a good stereo and Nav., and a retractible hardtop, nice. I also heard VW's in general need a lot of maintenance and costs are high.
I will now go and test out a G35 and a Cadillac CTS,plus the Lexus IS 350, and the Buick Lacross CXS 2006 250hp $26K again, just to compare.
Cheers
Flash 11
Apologies that is is off topic but thought I should mention it. Sweet car !, wonder if they will have a similar affordable sporty sedan ??
Flash 11
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Well unless Mazda really improves the "gadget" contenet it will never be a ELLPS canidate according to the ELLPS forum. I personally like the Mazdaspeed6 and requested further information on them about a year an a half ago. I think it's about 40 horsepower shy to run with the big dogs and Mazda needs to improve the materials on the interior to make it a hot seller in performance-oriented segment. However if you want a AWD family sports sedan it's worth considering. I think the segment is flooded with so many great choices the Mazda often gets over-looked.
Rocky
If so/not what are your likes and dislikes about the car ????
Rocky
In luxury I am not only looking for leather seats, fake wood trims and gadgets (I can settle for Camry or Accord if I am satisfy with those). The most important criteria for me is the interior fit-'n-finish, material quality and overall appearance. To me the EVO do offer enough performance but not enough luxury to be an ELLPS.
Also, I am working in a fairly conservative environment so to drive a riced up car like the EVO will get me too much unnecessary attention.
Rocky
I personally like it a lot. The manual is going to be available still right ?????
Rocky
Rocky
More drama, more room
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=119276?tid=edmunds.il.ho- me.photopanel..3.*
Rocky
With a 362 hp. base LS-2 V8 on tap this car will be a powerful ELLPS alternative. The leakers say a 502 hp alternative is in the works.
Rocky
Ummmmmmmmm..........
Well a couple off the top of my head is the 2009' Cadillac CTS-V, 2008' Mitsubishi Lancer EVO-X,
2008' BMW M3, Acura TL Type-S and/or the new 09' SH-AWD TL, Audi S4 & S6, Mercedes C63 AMG model, Volvo S60R, Lincoln is suppose to come out with a SVT tuned MKZ in a couple of years. I also don't mind Chrysler's SRT sedans to be allowed either. If you can think of any more that kind of goes with the flow feel free to add them.
If you can come up with a "factory tuner" type title that's catchy that might help participation that would be great.
Thanx, Pat....... :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
P.S. Perhaps "readerreader" has found better.....
Later this year will come the AMG-tuned, V8-powered C63, and a wagon version is also not far behind.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119252
Well you put it togeather the way you think it makes since. I was just naming vehicals off.....I do want the CTS-V and EVO-X to be in there.
Rocky
P.S. Leave out the S6 and include the S4, S60R
Thanx,
Rocky
"Current and Future-performance oriented sedans"
What do you think ? "Performance oriented factory tuner sedans" is my pick. I'd be just as happy with the other one. I need a second opinion.
I want a title that is relavent 10 years from now but is catchy. I suppose we could change the title and give the one above a try. The current forum title is so much like the ELLPS and LPS forums.
I do appreciate your particpation on making this forum better and more interesting.
Thanx,
Rocky
Double-check the categories and make sure they are what you want. You can look at the choices by looking at the Browse by Vehicle search on the left. Anything listed there can be a category, anything not listed there cannot. That's why, for example, I couldn't put Acura TL-S there, only Acura TL.
It looks great....
Thanx,
Rocky
Who/what is the best and why ?????
Rocky
Congratulations on getting your forum up and running Rocky.
You've got quite a list of cars going.
I'll be back after a visit to my therapist. But seriously,
I am impressed with the new Lancer stylisticly. It seems as though they are really trying hard to be competitive with the luxury amenities. [although maybe it's more electronic trickery for us mericans]
To be sure, the performance part will be in place when the EVO comes to market.
Uh, can we add the new Audi R8 to thread, and maybe take out the S60R since it doesn't sell to hot?
Dan, I don't care what y'all want to talk about but would like this forum to focus on "factory tuned" performance.
I guess I'd let "PAT" make the judgement if he thinks adding coupes would be a good idea from a particpation level ?????
I just wanted a place where we can talk about "factory tuned" cars and I honestly don't care if it's sedans, coupes, convertibles, as long as the subject is "factory tuned" both current and near future.
I like the new EVO-X as I've said many times. It is a factory tuned car. The Audi R8 I don't know about at all. I do know about the RS4, S6, S8.
Rocky