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I do subscribe to the magazine,but as far as recomendations...I make my own decisions.(as most people do)There are some inaccuracies as far as real world mileage and such,and I bet if my KIA(2006.5 Optima) were made by Honda,it would be a recommended auto.I still enjoy their takes on the new models,even if I dont take them as gospel.
As far as JD Powers go,I cant find a review of my car,so I cant comment. :shades:
CR is sticking its finger in the wind and saying, "Oh, it agrees with what we want them to think." That's sort of like the national news people telling everyone about their opinion of something for a few days and then doing surveying (polling) to see what the people think who have only gathered information from their national newscasts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree they do pull out their big Nit Pick sometimes, e.g. the placement of the Sonata's vents, but they do that kind of thing for non-Korean cars too.
I have the current issue and they do recommend the small KIA suv(I forget what it's called)That is the first time I have seen that in their monthly magazine.
I have done practically a 180 on my Optima.It's a great car.I only wish they made it as a hybrid,as gas prices are going up again.20c per gallon in the last two weeks.
Most Reliable -- Toyota, Honda, Subaru
Least Reliable -- BMW, Mercedes, (I forget - I threw it out quickly)
It benefits the Liberal agenda for us to believe that Japan has a better model for corporate structure than the US. Japan taxes the heck out of people and corporations and puts the money into lots of governmental programs. Japan's corporate structure is more closely linked with and controlled by its government. Liberal agenda favors more government regulations on corporations, high taxation, lots of governmental distribution of money and programs. Belief that Japan makes better cars with its corporate structure makes Americans doubt our current form.
Another Liberal agenda item -- gay rights. Recently CR is starting to recommend Ford again. Google "Ford gay rights". I find it hard for me to believe that the same company who designed my 95 Windstar could ever get anyones recommendation. My Windstar had failed transmissions at 55K and 101K. My Windstar had engine failure at 101K due to Fords inability to design an engine with an aluminum top coupled with an iron block. The temperature fluctuations started about 92K but nobody could identify the problem. Ford slowly came to realize its design flaws but when I contacted them after it hit 101K I was informed "Once you reach 100K Ford believes you have gotten the life out of the vehicle" and would do nothing for me. Ford also designed a vehicle which lost its braking system while I was driving it. Was told "This could never happen". 2 years later started receiving recalls for possible "Catastrophic Failure of the Braking system". But supporting Gay Rights means you automatically start designing good vehicles in CR's eyes.
CR says Mercedes Benz and BMW are the "most unreliable" goes against every observation and opinion I've ever had from their owners. But perhaps the 3 companies BMW, Daimler, Chrysler teaming up with GM for hybrid technology instead of Toyota threatens how CR wants me to think.
Enough conspiracy theories. I'll continue to think for myself and make my decisions based upon my good judgment gained from research, observation and experience.
I'm sorry, that's one of the most absurd posts I've ever read on here. You honestly think that CR is reporting improved reliabilty among Fords because Ford supports gay rights? Even though its obvious to anyone that the Fusion build quality is substantially better than previous-gen Fords?
Look, I'm a political communications professionial. I do it for a living. Not only that--I'm a Republican. A conservative one, too, even on social issues. You don't have to sell me on the "liberal media," I deal with it every day.
But it does not apply to every single product review, particularly when there is a data to back it up.
Not that I even need to, but let me blow your argument out of the water with this: the single most "gay friendly" automaker in the world is Volkswagon. They were the first to advertise in gay publications and still do. Take a look at how many VW's CR recommends. See what they say about their reliability. It runs completely counter to your assertion.
You may buy as others recommend, I'll do my own studies. May we both have satisfactory purchases.
Both of those vehicles--the Windstar and the Mountaineer--aren't exactly know for their quality. I'm pretty certain that neither one of them are recommended by CR.
CR does recommend the new Fusion, however, because it did well in their testing, and first year reliability for the Fusion/Milan has been very good. If you looked at the new Fusion, and then a previous-gen Taurus which it replaced, you would see an noticeable improvement almost across the board--quality of materials, NVH, etc. So its not surprising that reliability has improved.
It doesn't have anything to do with bias.
OTOH perhaps it is my fault too. I never reported these things to CR and just pitch every issue (my hubby drags them out of the trash though). I SHOULD have made a bigger deal of the brake failure of the 95 Windstar. I gave up too easily and was disgusted with Ford instead of adamant that the failure did happen. I was probably one of the forst it happened to.
But that is enough for now I have Crop Circles to tend too.
Oh and BTW The Alternative Life Style groups have been crushing Ford in the media over the years so your train of thought is way off. Unless CR is anti gay then it makes sense.
Actually that would be the CR testers with the Liberal leanings -- not those that doubt their recommendations. Get it straight!! Better not use that word "straight" either - unless you know that its a secret code word.
These postings were moved from another thread. Hard to follow the progressions here.
You are incorrect. It is the Conservative groups that have been bashing Ford for its support of gay rights plus donations. However, my premise is with CR reviews not gay issues. I claim that CR reviews are biased in favor of companies that favor the Liberal agenda.
This type of claptrap doesn't belong on Edmunds!
I was thinking about when the Gay Rights folks were pouncing on Ford for not allowing people to put there life partners on there health insurance and not allowing them to buy on A-plan. Which they can do both now.
And notice now that CR is changing their opinion of them. COINCIDENCE or not? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I actually do have a sense of humor
This discussion is from another board, where I maintain that I trust my own observations, research, and judgments better than anyone else's because I can trust myself and know my own motivations better than I can anyone else in the world. Being a professional reviewer does not necessarily imply honesty or fairness.
*emails host to have them remove this.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Why. if they want to sell more magazines, then you'd think they'd be biased to American cars for the past 20 years.
Why. if they want to sell more magazines, then you'd think they'd be biased to American cars for the past 20 years.
Actually the northeast is pretty well known as a liberal segment of the US. So CR is just writing for themselves and those that think like themselves. They are taking down the capitalist establishment liberals despise. Long live Toyota, the environmental anti establishment company!!!. Whoops they are now building huge trucks!! Must take them down. Toyota quality is now bad!
Above said tongue in cheek.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I thought all capital gains taxes on appreciated personal real estate were eliminated years ago? What is Consumer Reports talking about?
But "property" is not limited to real estate. What they are talking about is you can donate, for example, stocks that have increased in value and get a deduction for the full appreciated value but pay no cap gains taxes. If instead you sell the stocks and donate the money, you will owe cap gains taxes based on the selling price vs. your purchase price.
He starts asking me questions and I tell him that I do not have hard data in front of me, and that this is all just guesstimates. He says that is fine.
The one thing that blew me away is that they said for the purpose of the survey please consider sub prime as 680 and below. I have banks where 680 is a auto approve prime deal.
So that tells me that they can pre-determine the out come of a survey just by how they structure the survey.
He was asking me how sub prime portfolios perform and what percentage of the sub prime we do ends up defaulting on loans.
Well using 680 as a bench mark the %'s are very low. If you used what the banks use which is usually 619 and below the %'s would be much higher.
I also told him I really did not know because there are only 4 ways we know if the bank pops a loan:
1. it happens in the first 90 days
2. They bought a refundable product that we have to do a refund on.
3. The customer drops the car off to us.
4. The customer (believe it or not this happens more then you think) comes in when he is 90 days past due and in repo status and ask us to trade him into another car before they take back the one he has.
No problem, Steve!
From my thread in "Automotive News", folks:
"(PLEASE NOTE: IN THIS THREAD, ALL IMPORT CARS ARE LISTED IN BOLDFACE PRINT AND ALL DOMESTICS IN REGULAR PRINT)
In this Month's issue, Consumer Reports has the Mazda6 listed ahead of both the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan (all three get a score of 69, but the Mazda is on top), yet the Mazda not only has worse reliability than the Ford (Average versus Excellent, respectively), but also costs nearly $2,000 more ($22,000 versus $21,300). Why is the Mazda higher on the list than the Ford?
Also, in the same issue, the Kia Amanti is listed by Consumer Reportsas a great value because there are now rebates on this $30,000 car, but Consumer Reports did not mention anything about the inevitable, substantial rebates on the Buick Lucerne when they tested the car back in Mar 2007. Is there a reason? They are both in the same class and they both have the same rebates.
Furthermore, Consumer Reports claims they do not take the reliability of a car into account when they do their "expert" road tests. If that's the case, then is there a reason why they dropped the Toyota Camry from 'Excellent' to 'Very Good'? They did this downgrade shortly after Camry owners reported 'Below Average' reliability on the car.
Consumer Reports claims they are not biased towards a product, whether it's an import or a domestic. They also claim that they do not take reliability data into account when evaluating their cars. I'm presenting this thread to determine if I'm going nuts or if there is indeed a compromise in their "unbiased" ratings.
More discrepancies with this company will be presented by me and perhaps others on an ongoing basis..."
And the reliability surveys are pretty good, arguably better than the JD Power study which surveys far fewer people."
Ding! Wrong!
You claim that C/R isn't propaganda just because the consumer is "free to accept or reject" their articles [related to cars].
But I tell you, that since they have the following quote plastered in at least five different places in each of the issues Consumer Reports brings to print: "...So turn to Consumer Reports for unbiased news and reviews...", then back up their "unbiasedness" with clear discrepancies, lapses and obvious compromises in their integrity by favoring cars of an import nameplate just because their tested cars have an import nameplate, this tells me that what C/R is up to may very well be called, "propaganda."
P/S: Sorry for that very long sentence.
Word nannies, do you have any suggestions on how I could have broken that sentence up a little?
By the added time length, and because Consumer Reports receives far more consumer surveys (and not just on vehicles), Consumer Reports reliability data is more scientific.
Use J/D Powers Initial Quality Survey to determine things like the fit and finish of interior and exterior panels, the quality of materials used in the building of the car, Overall care of the final assembly of the car, etc. In this respect, J/D Powers is far more thorough than Consumer Reports.
So, there we have it. Read J/D Powers to see wheather or not the wood trim is real or fake, whether the dashboard cowl was installed with 8mm steel fasteners or Elmers glue and whether or not the exterior paint is $20,000-a-gallon nanoparticle paint or the same stuff as Sears latex high-gloss.
Read Consumer Reports to see how well the car is holding up when it's like 4 years old.
And I'm tired of all this decidedly anecdotal, non-scientific stuff I've been reading. Stuff like, "Consumer Reports is telling me my Jetta is a rotten piece of shiite, but they're WAAAAAAY wrong! My Jetta lasted 350,000 miles, never needed a set of tires, withstood a direct collision with an enormous oak tree at 95 MPH and it STIIIIIILL runs like I just drove it off the lot!"
A 22 year old mazda buyer who has a relatively small problems often acts like its the end of civilization and hits the survey very hard...but a town car owner with a major problem seem to take things in stride and is easy on the survey.
Age and driver habits does not count and will not bias the reliability report of a car. Why? Because the 22 year-old Mazda buyer owns a car that willbe compared to other 22 year-old Mazda buyers.
65 year-old Lincoln owners will be compared to other 65 year-old Lincoln buyers.
Therefore, the reliability among car classes remains scientific.
If this were not so, we'd see very poor reliability rankings for the Mazda and high marks for the Lincoln.
Re the Camry, which Camry did CR say is "Very Good" in the current issue? Way back in their April 2007 Auto Issue, they ranked the I4 Camry as Very Good, and the Hybrid and V6 as Excellent. Are you saying now that they have ranked the Hybrid and V6 models as Very Good? One thing to consider is that the rankings are relative to the competition. So it's possible the Camry was considered Excellent relative to its competition when the 2007 model first debuted, but now with other, newer cars out there like the Accord, Altima, and Malibu, maybe the Camry has slipped relative to some of them?
As some evidence that CR does not take reliability data into account when ranking cars, note that in the April Auto Issue they ranked the Passat at the top of the I4 Family Sedans group, even though it had poor predicted reliability. Where does CR rank the Passat I4 now?
I haven't seen the current CR issue. What was the context of the article in which they mentioned the rebates on the Amanti?
An answer: Consumer Reports doesn't mention rebates when they test a car except when the car has rebates and is an import.
Very few import cars give out substantial rebates on their products. And when they do, Consumer Reports counts that as a beneficial "feature." If the Amanti's rebate would not have benefitted the car's ranking, it would not have been mentioned.
The really sad thing is that rebates on domestic cars (and there are substantial discounts on some very exceptional domestic cars) are never mentioned in their tests; only the import rebates get mentioned, as shown in this Month's issue.
Anti-American bias is my only explination. Does anyone else here have an alternate explination?
This post is contradictory.
First it says that Consumer Reports doesn't count reliability in their test rankings, and that explains why VW "score very well on their test rankings."
Then it says, "In an article last April they even wrote: If the only things that mattered to a car buyer were performance, comfort, and safety, Volkswagen would be at the top of the heap."
Well, gee. does Consumer Reports test performance, comfort and safety? Or do they throw reliability into the mix as well?
The Hyundai Elantra is an import. Since at least 2001, there have been substantial rebates offered on this car in the U.S. (e.g. last month there was a $1000-2000 rebate on it, depending on state; when I bought an Elantra in 2004, there was a total of $2500 in rebates on it). I just reviewed CR's reports on the current Elantra and previous-gen Elantra. Not one word about rebates. And guess what the top-ranked car was in that group? For the test in May 2005, it was the Ford Focus. American car, yes? And in the test last October, only the Civic was ranked ahead of the Focus by CR.
I have read CR for over 30 years, and I don't see any basis for your claims of anti-American bias in CR's car reviews. A single mention of a rebate on one import does not to me constitute an anti-American bias. I think you have to look at the larger picture before coming to a conclusion like that. With one data point, you can prove just about anything you want to prove.
Yes, but it does take considerable skill to select the one that is just right!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
VWs are generally ranked highly by CR, they often do not get "recommended" based on their reliability survey results. Those are two different things.
In the sentence If the only things that mattered to a car buyer...Volkswagen would be at the top of the heap they are talking about the car buyer's "heap" not CR rankings.
And if the Toyota Tundra gets 0% for 60 Months, did I say that Consumer Reports would bring this fact to print?
The obvious point that I made was that Consumer Reports suggested the Amanti was a value based on the rebates that Kia is now offering and not the Kia's MSRP. I also stated that this deviation from their normal policy of not considering the rebate in their test criteria is due to the fact that the car is an import by indicating there are many, many excellent domestic cars that have the same rebates but don't get the same favorable treatment from Consumer Reports.
Yes, but it does take considerable skill to select the one that is just right!
First off, it takes no skill to point out obvious biases with Consumer Reports since the biases are so abundant. Secondly, I have presented several already and I'm new to this thread.
Look here. Right above your post. Yet another anti-domestic bias from Consumer Reports, this time the forum member brings up the Ford Focus versus the Honda Civic:
...And guess what the top-ranked car was in that group? For the test in May 2005, it was the Ford Focus. American car, yes? And in the test last October, only the Civic was ranked ahead of the Focus by CR.
Sure, for a very brief moment, the globally critically acclaimed Focus -- a car that at the time was considered far and away the best car in it's class not just nationally but on an international scale -- got some sunlight by Consumer Reports.
Then, Consumer Reports in late 2005 rates the unchanged Honda Civic higher than the unchanged Focus by one point.
Is there a reason for the change? Why did the Focus suddenly get dropped to 70 points and the Civic got 71 points overnight when noone was looking? I have only one explination: After the Focus fanfare died down and when everyones eyes were on other cars, Consumer Reports snuck the Civic above the Focus because Consumer Reports had to continue their pandering to the import branded car manufacturer; Neither the Focus nor the Civic were redesigned at that point. God forbid, there should be an American car on the number one spot, even if that American car is the best car in it's class.
What's funny is that while automotobile journalists throughout the European continent had such high praise for the Ford Focus for many, many years, consistiently giving the car First-place finishes in their comparison tests (against same-class cars from Peugeot, Renault, VW, Honda and Toyota), that the car was a #1 seller there. Yet here in the States? Consumer Reports gives it just a couple Months as their number one car, only to return the Civic to the number one spot a couple months later.
Does anyone else have an alternate explination as to why the Civic went back up above the Focus in late 2005-2006, even though there was no change at all in either car?
Just one problem with that statement, the rest of the world gets a different Focus from the US. The US version is essentially unchanged since it's introduction in 2000.
Where are you seeing a switch? I see the May 2005 rankings, but the next place I see them is Feb 2006 which features the newly redesigned Civic at the top.
Focus is certainly an admirable car to be ranked so highly with no redesign since 2000 and a much cheaper price than a Civic.
Surverys that are conducted by CR are from a pool of respondents that are generally subscribers or previous subscribers to CR itself. This means that the survery results are representative of the views that are derived from that pool itself.
ANY publication, whether it be the Los Angeles Times, Newsweek magazine, Forbes, Motor Trend, or CR, etc., will have its own unique readership. This pool of readers from any single publication does not, in and of itself, fully or accurately represent the American public as a whole. It represents itself only. No other claim can be made.
The data from CR surveys, therefore, is representative of CR's survery participants only. It's quite simple. They do not represent the rest of the population as a whole.
Yet, consider that the survey data from CR is highly influential!! How interesting.
Biased? Of course... just as any other limited or focused sampling would be. It's the nature of the beast, an inherent attribute of the process.
carry on....
TagMan
Thanks. Now, to answer your question... well, it depends upon the survey, and the source of survery participants... If the source itself is the population "in general", without other parameters present, and particularly if the sample is proportionally representative of the actual sold vehicles, as oppposed to CR only soliciting answers from its own pool.
Personally, I would generally place more value in J.D. Power surveys than CR's.
However, there are still some "faults" with post-sale surveys as well. As a small example, a new car dealership that sells a new car to a customer often informs the customer that a survey will be forthcoming, and requests the customer to give high marks, and suggests to the customer that it will benefit the dealership directly if those high marks are given. Essentially the dealership is outright asking that high marks be attributed to the vehicle and to the sales experience. I've experienced this myself numerous times. Does that change the results of the survey and cause a bias? The answer is obvious.
Anyway, you gentlemen have fun over here...
TagMan
A survey to illuminate the traits of the CR pool of respondents would be interesting. To what degree could one conclude that they represent America?
Again, if the pool was from Car & Driver subscribers, for example, we might assume incorrectly that readers of a car magazine are a more realistic representative group from which one could derive answers related to cars. But, truthfully they would not likely represent mainstream America. Just the fact that they subscribe to a particular publication isolates them to a degree.
This gets down to marketing research that analyzes the demographics of readers of different publications. Trust me, they are all different... they have different incomes and levels of education as well as different interests.
TagMan