Propane conversion

mallred

I am considering a propane conversion kit for my
pickup. Has anyone done this? If so, what were
your results, where did you get the conversion kit
and how much did it cost? Any caveats? Any
insight would be appreciated.

mgdvhman

http://www.gmaltfuel.com/

- Tim

swobig

2000 Silverado to propane. Would have cost me 1500$, but I ended up selling the vehicle. Only concerns I had were warranty issues, but they do have a factory propane option, but it's too expensive. If your looking for somebody to do it let me know as I have a list of qualified shops that do this. BTW, I work at a propane plant and was considering doing this for fuel savings...

markbuck

AZ has unbelievable tax breaks on bi-fuel vehicles.

The conversion kits are mostly available from Technocarb (see website).

CNG makes a much better fuel.

The best vehicles come bi or dedicated from the factory.

I drove a F250LD factory Ford bi-fuel with two buddies late Fri night. They both ordered one, I will probably order one on Tuesday.

CNG runs about $0.60 an equavalent gallon if you refuel from your house. Propane about $1.10, but you get less mpg by about 20%.

Read up on the Fords at www.fleet.ford.com

The GM alt fuel site is not up to date.

quadrunner500

CNG can't be liquified, I believe. Therefore to refuel from your house, wouldn't you have to compress it first? I believe that is the advantage of propane...it's more portable, versatile, if lower in BTU content. Anyone know?

swobig

CNG can be had in liquid form, but your not going to do it cheaply. Propane tanks can typically handle about 250 psi - that's all it needs to store liquid. CNG tanks have to have a much higher pressure rating because they have to compress as much gas as possible into the tank - therefore propane is safer (lower tank psi), more readily available, better mileage than CNG (definately better range). CNG is really not a viable option in my opinion. One therm of natural gas is 100,000 btu's and one gallon of LP is 95,000 btu (roughly). Little higher energy content for natural, but again your not storing it in liquid form so you have much less gas in your tank.

Markbuck I have to disagree that CNG does not make a better fuel - propane easily blows it away. But, I will agree that AZ does have some great rebates...

markbuck

CNG. Costs about 1.2 KWH to refuel using a www.fuelmaker.com refueling station, about $.15 for the electricity to fill a tank overnight. Cost is $.60 per gallon equivalent (~120 cubic feet). Natural gas rises, which is good for spills and leaks. Has octane of 120+ which gives benifits if you get a dedicated vehicle to run on it. Honda's CNG Civic 13:1. Ford's GG F150 5.4 11:1. The bifuel vehicles run standard compression ratio. F150 holds 25 or 30 gallons of gas and 12.8 gallons equivalent of CNG (about 2250 cubic feet) pressurized to 3600 psi.

swobig

when you consider propane is 200 psi. The tank has to be much heavier built/made. 13 gallons CNG tank will not get you very far - maybe 150 miles?? Gasoline btu content is higher than propane or CNG so mileage will go down. Overnight fill?? That's great if you park it every night, but what if you go on a trip? CNG is not as readily available as propane. I can fill the 60 gallon propane tank on my company truck in 2-3 minutes. Propane also has a high octane rating - I can't remember off hand, but it is around 120 also. If you just drive back & forth to work everyday and don't plan on any trips (using CNG) then it's a option, but propane is still better...

quadrunner500

What are you, some kind of twig boy? (LOL)

Propane is great stuff, no question. Stores well, doesn't degrade much over time.

Question I have, is why the city owned vehicles running around here go to the expense of the high buck (no pun Mark) filling stations, high psi tanks and filling adapters if there is no real advantage over propane?

Or is this another ethanol vs mtbe experiment in waste?

swobig

usually get lurred in by big incentives given by big natural gas companies. CNG has nothing on LP except for bigger backers. LP companies are generally MUCH smaller than the smallest Natural Gas company and therefore have much more resources to push their product. We've lost LP cylinder (forklift) accounts to CNG because of this. They offer a big incentive, basically give all the stuff to them for free, but the customer does not realize that they get less drive time, it's more dangerous, and it's more problematic. It's really sad that a superior product loses - too many people just look at "up front" costs and don't realize this stuff will cost more over time...

quadrunner500

The lurds again!

swobig

haven't seen/heard him in a while...

quadrunner500

Do those work trucks have the hardened valves seats? I hear about kits for converting virtually all generators to run on propane. Would be surprised if all of them had hardened valves, seats?

Wonder if everybody rushed out and had propane conversion kits installed on their vehicles, if the infrastructure is there to support refueling them, in view of your previous comments about propane industry being dwarfed by size of CNG companies? Problem could probably take care of itself....

One thing I hate about propane industry...you can't always get a straight answer on price. Try asking, "what's the price per pound for propane today?" Seems to depend on the price of the bottle you want to fill. And you seldom get credit for any propane remaining in a partially empty container you bring in. Lesson for me...I found 2 dealers that I trust to not play sneaky price games. I give them 100% of my business, even if they are not the cheapest on every given day.

swobig

are needed. But many people convert without doing this. When it wears out, just put the hardened valves in.

Infrastructure is there, we just need people to do it. The "industry" has done a poor job of promoting such a good source of alternative energy. CNG companies on the other hand have done better with a weaker product. Just not a whole lot of "extra" money in this industry for promotion, etc. Kinda like beta vs. vhs. Beta was better, but vhs took over because of price. Propane is better, but CNG will (hopefully not) in the end win because of slightly better price, but more hassles. I wish somebody would step up to the plate for the industry, but as I said we are dwarfed by nearly all CNG suppliers.

Price is sensitive. Just like gasoline. We set a price for 20# cylinders to be filled and have left it there for a couple of years. We don't give credit for gas remaining in the tank mainly because it's a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] to try to account for when you do you daily figures. As a manager I set all my prices, but there is a lot of turnover in this industry. My company last year had turnover of close to 30%, and we were one of the better companies. On had 47% - time to look for another job. Got any openings???

quadrunner500

Thanks for the input.

markbuck

last night. 28 gal Propane, 19 gallon gasoline. What kinda mileage and power should I expect when running propane vs gasoline? Have heard about 20% down on power and 25% reduction gallon for gallon with propane.

When I get my travel trailer propane tank filled, they bleed off the gas until liquid hits the overflow (80% full). On the big trucks, is there some sort of refueling system that recovers the gaseous propane? What's propane going for? Can I refuel the F450 at any old LP refueling station? What's propane going for these days in your neck of the woods. I never pay attention on the travel trailer as the tanks are 7 gallon, and usually not completely empty.

Thanks!

quadrunner500

Mark,
Do the following:
1.) Avoid caffeine
2.) Take deep breaths
3.) Think about what you are doing.

You are going to HATE that thing. The first thing you'll want to do, like every other person that buys a truck too big, is go out and find another car. That's two insurance bills, two license plates, and one always sitting parked. You'll constantly be thinking about dumping one. Everyone I know with one one of those big diesel rigs, has a car, or a wife.

Your original idea about the F150 bifuel makes MUCH more sense than gargantuan F450 with 19.5 inch truck wheels, and 4.88 axle. You're going to get 6-8 mpg in that thing whether you tow or not. And forget about range. You'll pass everything but a fuel station. Big heavy rig will have decent traction is snow and mud, but when it does get stuck, think about what kind of truck you'll need to come tow you. On ice, the big rig again will have decent traction, until you touch those brakes, it will take FOREVER to stop.

Can't tell you what to do, just what I would do. That is, I would beat that little 1/2 Shivy till the wheels fall off before I would....aw well, you get the idea. Have you thought about trading your travel trailer for something smaller?

Tell you what works for me...I have a motorhome and dirt bike trailer. You know what? Most times it stays parked. I put the bike in the bed of my pickup, (600 mile unrefueled range BTW), and pack one of those SportZ truck tents, coleman catalytic heater, stove, porta-potty, ice chest. I have everything I need, none of the hassles. Of course, it's no holiday Inn, but your dirt biking!

swobig

F450 19 gallon gas tank seems small and 28 gallon propane tank also seems small. We have F750 sized trucks and get 4-5 mpg with them. Yours will probably get 7-8 I would think. You get about a 10% loss in power, but most of the time it's really not noticable - actually with the trucks that we pull with I only notice a slight difference in power when running on gasoline, so maybe 10% is too big - you'll have to be your own judge. Mileage will suffer on propane also. We have a 3/4 ton that gets 10 MPG on gas and 8 on propane. You'll probably lose 1-2 MPG, but usually you can get propane cheaper than gasoline to make up the difference. I would recommend you talk to a Manager of a propane plant and try to get a "set" cost. It maybe set all year long or set at a certain price over what the dealer pays - the latter actually being better. As I stated before, the price you pay is set by the manager - so you could go to one and pay $1 per gallon and just down the street they'd charge $1.50. Motor fuel for trucks is not a big business, so you will get very big price extremes. But, as I said, you'll get the best price working out a deal with somebody. We have 300 outlets nationwide - maybe one in your area. I currently would sell it to you for $1.25 plus taxes, but were in a higher priced area. If I had a committment from you that you would purchase your gas from me I'd probably sell it to you for $1 per gallon plus taxes, but each location will be different. Make a friend in the business...

markbuck

Looks like me and 11,999 of my AZ friends have ordered F450 bifuels. Ford only made 3,000 total last year. Maybe no get the truck and the $30,000 tax credit.

And that $7,000 net big truck looked soooo inviting! I could have bought alot of fuel with my $30,000 tax credit!

swobig

out of staters? I'd like one too, but don't live there. Have a aunt that lives there though - wonder how they check???

markbuck

Gotta file AZ income tax returns for 5 years plus have a drivers licence that has been good for like 6 months.

Program will be cancelled today in a special session of AZ legislature.

swobig

that really sucks. You still getting yours???

mgdvhman

.....fuel is affordable....gives good power...and it makes me feel good!

The planet has been here for millions of years...we have only been engaged in heavy industry for 100 years......we aren't going to "break" the planet....

- Tim

swobig

but with rising fuel costs more people need alternatives. Propane is cheaper than gas...

markbuck

you dang retard. Bifuel means I can run on either propane or good ol gasoline....

mgdvhman

....but I see no reason for an alternative yet...

Ya dolt!

LOL

- Tim

swobig

hear we go - just like the Tundra vs. Big 3 topic....

mgdvhman

while this is no harm intended...the tundra topic is!

LOL

- Tim

swobig

what the heck is a dolt? Sorry, I live in West Virginia! heehehe

meredith

After 30 or more days of inactivity....

this topic is being "frozen." It will be archived or deleted in the next 10 days or so.

Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host