Are Toyota's recent quality problems just a glitch?

rockylee

What Will It Take to Save GM? - READ ONLY

#7613 of 11674 Toyota losing it's golden throne? by 62vetteefp Jul 22, 2006 (8:24 pm)
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The widely reported recall investigation ? coming at a time when Toyota recalls are ballooning ? has been a major embarrassment for Toyota because of its solid reputation for quality.

Earlier this month, police said they were sending papers to prosecutors on three Toyota officials in a criminal investigation on suspicion of professional negligence for allegedly shirking recalls for eight years. Police say they suspect the three Toyota officials, whose names have not been disclosed because they have not been charged, knew about the problems as far back as 1996 but took no action.

The defects being investigated, a suspected faulty steering part, may have caused an August 2004 head-on crash in southwestern Japan that injured five people, they say.

Toyota has denied any wrongdoing, saying the reported problems had not appeared serious enough to warrant a recall until October 2004, when Toyota recalled in Japan 330,000 Hilux Surf vehicles manufactured between December 1988 and May 1996.

The 2004 recall affected more than a million vehicles sold in 180 nations, including the U.S. and Europe, and some problems had been reported from abroad, according to Toyota. None of the reports from abroad had caused accidents, the company said.
Replies to this message:
• imidazol97 (Jul 22, 2006 8:26 pm)
• chuck1959 (Jul 23, 2006 2:56 pm)

#7614 of 11674 Re: Toyota losing it's golden throne? [62vetteefp] by imidazol97 Jul 22, 2006 (8:26 pm)
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Jul 22, 2006 8:24 pm)

#7614 of 11674 Re: Toyota losing it's golden throne? [62vetteefp] by imidazol97 Jul 22, 2006 (8:26 pm)
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Jul 22, 2006 8:24 pm)

Is this the recall I heard mentioned today that involves 450,000 vehicles? Or is that a different recall.
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• chuck1959 (Jul 23, 2006 2:56 pm)

#7653 of 11674 Re: Toyota losing it's golden throne? [imidazol97] by chuck1959 Jul 23, 2006 (2:56 pm)
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Replying to: imidazol97 (Jul 22, 2006 8:26 pm)

#7653 of 11674 Re: Toyota losing it's golden throne? [imidazol97] by chuck1959 Jul 23, 2006 (2:56 pm)
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Replying to: imidazol97 (Jul 22, 2006 8:26 pm)

I'm glad Toyota are having all theses recalls! It just shows they really are not so much superior as most have thought.

Currency manipulation:

#8212 of 11674 Can GM get a break? by 62vetteefp Aug 08, 2006 (10:07 am)
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The latest quarterly reports from Toyota, Nissan, Honda and other Japanese automakers show they earned over $2 billion in windfall profits due to an artificially weak yen, Collins said.

Tokyo's exchange rate policies could easily give Japanese automakers an $8 billion subsidy this year, the Automotive Trade Policy Council said in a statement highlighting the Japanese automakers' recent quarterly earnings.

"These are windfall profits that we say translate into subsidized exports" to the United States,
Replies to this message:
• logic1 (Aug 08, 2006 10:25 am)

#8214 of 11674 Re: Can GM get a break? [62vetteefp] by logic1 Aug 08, 2006 (10:25 am)
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Aug 08, 2006 10:07 am)

Economists are predicting the yen will rise to about 105 to the dollar by year end (currently it is at 115 or so) That will make a difference in profits.

#8377 of 11674 Re: Timeframes [lahiri] by logic1 Aug 11, 2006 (8:58 am)
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Replying to: lahiri (Aug 11, 2006 8:49 am)

FJ Cruisers, Tundras

With both being recalled (Tundra multiple times), the spouse may have to worry about being served with divorce papers.

Rapid product line ramp up often means recalls and quality glitches. Look at the JD Power listing of manufacturers going up and manufacturers going down.

Apparently, Toyota can have quality glitches and a segment of the public will ignore them. GM wants to eliminate the problem. The only proven way manufacturers can avoid manufacturering glitches is by implementing deliberate and careful programs.

#8379 of 11674 Re: Timeframes [logic1] by gsemike Aug 11, 2006 (9:12 am)
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Replying to: logic1 (Aug 11, 2006 8:58 am)

"Toyota can have quality glitches and a segment of the public will ignore them. GM wants to eliminate the problem"

How's that going?

#8381 of 11674 Re: Timeframes [gsemike] by logic1 Aug 11, 2006 (9:28 am)
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Replying to: gsemike (Aug 11, 2006 9:12 am)

How's that going?

Given the sudden surge of Toy recalls - for new products - and the drop off of GM, especially with the newer products, appears to be working fairly well so far.

#8386 of 11674 Re: Timeframes [irnmdn] by logic1 Aug 11, 2006 (9:44 am)
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Replying to: irnmdn (Aug 11, 2006 9:40 am)

Based on this, will you admit that GM has a little catching up to do?

Catch up? First, the hybrid Prius has been recalled several times already. The all new FJ has been recalled. The new Sienna is under investigation. The existing Tundra is on the second recall in a matter of a few months.

Yeah, if GM wants to have more recalls it has catching up to do. Seems to me, GM wants to stay as far away as possible.

#8388 of 11674 Re: Timeframes [irnmdn] by logic1 Aug 11, 2006 (9:47 am)
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Replying to: irnmdn (Aug 11, 2006 9:31 am)

On how Toyota is trying to get Tundra launch right...

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060811/AUTO01/608110339/1148- - -

So if I am following this morning's arguments correctly:

Methodical new launch efforts by GM - misplaced notions that are bringing the company down.

Methodical new launch efforts by Toyota - brilliant way to get things right.

Let's see if that Tundra gets recalled before the new Silverado.

#8438 of 11674 Re: Timeframes [logic1] by tlong Aug 11, 2006 (2:03 pm)
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Replying to: logic1 (Aug 11, 2006 8:58 am)

Rapid product line ramp up often means recalls and quality glitches. Look at the JD Power listing of manufacturers going up and manufacturers going down.

Apparently, Toyota can have quality glitches and a segment of the public will ignore them. GM wants to eliminate the problem.

Well Logic1, you must agree that GM earned this reputation with over 30 years of poor product. Toyota can make mistakes, too. If they correct quickly and recover it won't hurt them. GM has done so poorly for so long that a large fraction of the population can't believe that anything has changed. Even if GM HAS changed, it's going to take time. That's one of the reasons that their 30 years of mistakes are so costly. It's a very long climb back to the

rockylee

Well Logic1, you must agree that GM earned this reputation with over 30 years of poor product. Toyota can make mistakes, too. If they correct quickly and recover it won't hurt them. GM has done so poorly for so long that a large fraction of the population can't believe that anything has changed. Even if GM HAS changed, it's going to take time. That's one of the reasons that their 30 years of mistakes are so costly. It's a very long climb back to the top of the perception hill.
Replies to this message:
• logic1 (Aug 11, 2006 2:09 pm)
• tlong (Aug 11, 2006 2:37 pm)

#8441 of 11674 Re: Timeframes [tlong] by logic1 Aug 11, 2006 (2:09 pm)
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Replying to: tlong (Aug 11, 2006 2:03 pm)

you must agree that GM earned this reputation with over 30 years of poor product. Toyota can make mistakes, too. If they correct quickly and recover it won't hurt them. GM has done so poorly for so long that a large fraction of the population can't believe that anything has changed. Even if GM HAS changed, it's going to take time. That's one of the reasons that their 30 years of mistakes are so costly. It's a very long climb back to the top of the perception hill.

Don't disagree.

My point has been that high number of recalls and glitches come from putting quantity ahead of quality, and, to a lessor extent, supporting too many separate platforms.

As Toyota has ramped up both quantity and variety of product, it is not surprising to see they are running into many of the same problems that GM and Ford suffered over the years.
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• tlong (Aug 11, 2006 2:37 pm)

#8442 of 11674 Re: '09 Camaro [logic1] by tlong Aug 11, 2006 (2:19 pm)
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Replying to: logic1 (Aug 11, 2006 1:45 pm)

Belated hybrid efforts, they still don't really believe in them (per Bob Lutz)

Belated is not a problem if it is better:

If the new two-phase hybrid actually turns out to work as advertised and is reliable, then I agree kudos to GM. Unfortunately so far it is all positive forward-looking spin. I've seen a lot of previous GM spin that turned out quite underwhelming. Perhaps this hybrid story will be different.

This is what I got so far......I've read through thousands of posts looking for related subjects. I think I'll find more concrete articles including links in late august/early september...So be patient please.

Rocky

210delray

Rocky: it’s a brand new year already; no need to rehash old news!

The huge number of Toyotas recalled (2.2 million) in the US was for 2005. I see that Toyota’s recalls in the US for 2006 decreased sharply to 766,000 vehicles.

See this.

So maybe 2005 was just a blip caused by the large number of SUVs and pickups recalled for faulty tie rods (1989-96 models), the ones in which the 3 managers were accused of covering up problems. There was one known crash -- and no one was killed.

For the record, GM and Ford were both down sharply as well in recalls, but DCX was up.

drjames

rocky, "...three Toyota officials in a criminal investigation on suspicion of professional negligence for allegedly shirking recalls for eight years. Police say they suspect the three Toyota officials, whose names have not been disclosed because they have not been charged,..."

'I knew it was hawg wash from the get go but I being the nice guy I am had to at least give you the benefit of the doubt and look it up for myself to confirm'

So, NOBODY has gone to jail, and NOBODY has been found guilty of doing anything wrong. It's an investigation.

rockylee

210delray,

Okay I'm just tired of people telling me I was buffaloing them on the incident. Well that's the way it came across to me. I hate rehashing old news but wanted to point out Toyota, isn't the perfect, flawless, brand so many americans believe. I in fact despise such a notion. I'm tired of their commercials that say you won't be stranded on the side of a road in a toyota, that is often played here in the Texas Panhandle by a Amarillo, Toyota dealer. :mad: The sad thing is some of my friends still believe that perception and bought a toyota for that very reason instead of looking at the facts. :sick:

Rocky

rockylee

I've read they were put in jail........but whatever.....perhaps I'm wrong and misread it. :confuse:

Rocky

drjames

rocky, I can't speak for others here, but I don't believe Toyota or ANY auto manufacturer is perfect. It simply isn't possible. However, as much as you dislike Toyota and their marketing of their reliability reputation, how do you feel when GM has a huge International ad campaign advertising the new Silverado with a nice country song back track and nice images of "American" families and farmers... claiming it's "our country", only... half of all Silverados are built in Canada. Tell me, how do you feel about that? Or the Countless number of "domestics" which are in FACT built in Mexico? But they bought it because it had the blue oval or the general on the front grille. Maybe they should get their facts right too?

rockylee

#1092 of 1094 Re: UAW-unbelievable [rockylee] by imidazol97 Jan 16, 2007 (4:46 pm)
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Replying to: rockylee (Jan 16, 2007 3:19 pm)

1. Toyota's managers targeted
July 12, 2006 •• 612 words •• ID: det24386194
Toyota Motor Corp. finds itself in a deeply uncomfortable position as three of its quality-control managers in Japan are the focus of a criminal investigation into whether they downplayed reports of steering problems in the mid-1990s. That problem was subsequently cited as the possible cause of an accident in Japan that injured five people and eventually led to a global recall by Toyota of more than 1 million vehicles. Toyota, whose brand has long been synonymous with vehicle quality, said

This I found by searching the Detroit News Auto Insider. I believe a link was posted to their article more recently than July 12th about the coverup of steering problems. I thought they were found guilty.

I find links in a Tundra discussion about steering problems.
Replies to this message:
• rockylee (Jan 16, 2007 5:19 pm)
• rockylee (Jan 16, 2007 5:22 pm)

The GM advertisement of "Our Country" even though half are built in Canada is fine with me. I living in Michigan, for the majority of my life loved Canada. It was like visiting another state. I enjoyed the people and the majority like americans and cross the border frequently to visit relatives and friends living in the U.S. I personally wished Canada could be divided up into other states and have the whole country be part of the United States. The difference between building in Canada, or Mexico is significant. GM, building trucks in Canda is giving good people good jobs and the employees are well compensated for their days work. building in Mexico is $2-3 bucks an hour and the people end up with pretty much nothing because that country unfortunately is a 2nd-3rd world country ran by a corrupt government that keeps the common people down.

I know Delphi has quite a few plants in Mexico, and it's ashame. :sick: I honestly can't think of a vehical made by GM, that is still assembled in Mexico ???? Unless they are still bringing SUV's from across the border but I read somewhere they quit making vehicals down their I thought ?

I know ford has assembly plant for the fusion/milan/mkz down there. Toyota has a plant their also for the Tacoma. DCX I do know still assembles some Trucks their because my FIL Dodge 4x4 1-ton was made there.

So I wouldn't say a countless number of domestics are made in mexico

Rocky

geo9

ROCK...............Your wasting bandwidth posting ANYTHING negative (yet TRUE) about toyotas past/current quality problems.

The LEMMINGS won't hear of it and will post excuses and ride YOU like a pony till the cows come home!

Now if was about GM/Ford etc. they would have a different attitude................ :P

w9cw

Rocky - don't forget about the Chinese manufactured engine in the Equinox.

kdhspyder

Well you might need to keep abreast of things at your favorite importer.

HHR's are all made in Mexico
Avalanches are all made in Mexico
They just announced that all auto production at Saturn Spring Hill would be ended. The Ion will be killed and the replacement, the Astra from Opel Europe, will be made in Mexico along with the HHR.

Aveo's are all imported from Korea.

It must be really really tough to live with your head buried in the sand all the time.

Rocklee....they are gone. It's only a matter of time.

rockylee

geo9,

I know it's a lost cause but I'm hoping to light up that last brain cell that is flickering in some of their minds. :P

Rocky

rockylee

I read that the Equinox engine being made in China was going to be canceled. Perhaps 62' can add more to it since I believe it was he that posted it a while back ?

Rocky

rockylee

HHR's are all made in Mexico
Avalanches are all made in Mexico
They just announced that all auto production at Saturn Spring Hill would be ended. The Ion will be killed and the replacement, the Astra from Opel Europe, will be made in Mexico along with the HHR.

Got a link to support that ?

Aveo's are all imported from Korea.

I know that. It's a daewoo......

It must be really really tough to live with your head buried in the sand all the time.

It's better than it being buried in my tailpipe like some people I know.

Rocklee....they are gone. It's only a matter of time.

I've heard that what now for 10-15 years.....Even if a few more cars are made outside the U.S. with the right guy in the white house we will see them come back.

Rocky

drjames

"The difference between building in Canada, or Mexico is significant. GM, building trucks in Canda is giving good people good jobs and the employees are well compensated for their days work. building in Mexico is $2-3 bucks an hour and the people end up with pretty much nothing because that country unfortunately is a 2nd-3rd world country ran by a corrupt government that keeps the common people down."

So, you're suggesting that there are NO good people in Mexico and/or working for GM Mexico? Though Mexican GM employees are paid significantly less than their North American counterparts, their wages are considered very good relative to other Mexican jobs.

As for a corrupt government keeping "the common people down."? Have you ever looked at the NET worth of US congressmen/women, senators,...? They aren't exactly among the "common people", nor would any reasonable person create laws and govern in ways that would harm their wealth and property. As for corrupt, not exactly Mexican, but honest? lol....

So rocky, how do you feel about the hundreds of Millions if not Billions that Americans spend in Mexico on vacations each year? Do you rally around Old Glory and tell fellow americans NOT to give their American dollars to the bad Mexicans and their corrupt government? Do you ever visit the beautiful beaches in Mexico?

rockylee

drjames,

dude you are trying to get under my skin like a Tick :P

So, you're suggesting that there are NO good people in Mexico and/or working for GM Mexico?

I never said such a thing. I know you are trying to spin this as I don't like hispanics. I have many hispanic friends. i do live in Texass where the majority of the population is hispanic. I however do think they need to revolt against their corrupt government instead of marching on our streets for rights they don't have.

Though Mexican GM employees are paid significantly less than their North American counterparts, their wages are considered very good relative to other Mexican jobs.

That is a pile of B.S. !!!! They make no more salary than any other factory worker in mexico. $2 and change an hour.
YEAH-the wages are so wonderful drjames most live in one room shacks with parents, grandparents. American business is lifting up and taking care of those people and isn't polluting the drinking water in mexico even though the Rio glows at night. Good God dude !!! *shaking my head*

As for a corrupt government keeping "the common people down."? Have you ever looked at the NET worth of US congressmen/women, senators,...? They aren't exactly among the "common people", nor would any reasonable person create laws and govern in ways that would harm their wealth and property. As for corrupt, not exactly Mexican, but honest? lol....

Well most americans aren't starving, without any medical coverage(yet) and have the oppertunity to get educated in a safe school. Mexico, is run by a corrupt government filled with lobbying drug lords with only the wealthy elites in mind.

So rocky, how do you feel about the hundreds of Millions if not Billions that Americans spend in Mexico on vacations each year?

The only reason why americans go to Mexico on vacation because it's so cheap !!!!! I personally wouldn't risk my family's lives going there. My friends tell me certain area's where american tourism takes place are for the most part okay and relatively safe. However many americans have had to buy off crooked police officers and military officials to keep them from throwing them in jail for petty or false crimes. I have hispanic co-workers who's family's live in mexico that won't go back to see their parents and family's because certain area's have gotten so bad. Americans see the resorts, beaches, and not the real mexico. One of my best friends who's a computer engineer hated going to Mexico City to do business and is one of the reasons he quit his job because he felt un safe in mexico and U.S. border towns he often had to visit for his company. I've heard enough of his experiences and told my self no-way !!!!

Do you rally around Old Glory and tell fellow americans NOT to give their American dollars to the bad Mexicans and their corrupt government?

I in fact don't support them doing it but if that's what they want to do then so be it. I luckily have a family that would rather travel to a U.S., Canada, European, Scandinavian, destination for vacations.

Do you ever visit the beautiful beaches in Mexico?

Yes they are beautiful, but I can get the same experience going to the Florida Key's, Hawaii, Tahiti, Puerto Rico, etc, even though it might cost a few bucks more.

You can have Mexico, I'd rather relax in peace or take a cruise. :shades:

Rocky

kdhspyder

HHR's are all made in Mexico
Avalanches are all made in Mexico
They just announced that all auto production at Saturn Spring Hill would be ended. The Ion will be killed and the replacement, the Astra from Opel Europe, will be made in Mexico along with the HHR.

Got a link to support that ?

Three links:
HHR production
Avalanche production
Saturn Ion being killed replaced by Opel Astra from Europe; Saturn Vue production moving to Mexico .. from GMInsidenews blog

Even if a few more cars are made outside the U.S. with the right guy in the white house we will see them come back

This is precisely the head-in-the-sand view that I was speaking about. Why would GM ( or Ford or DCX? ) move production of low margin vehicles from a low-cost nonunion labor location outside the US to a high-cost and unionized labor site back in the US? It's not going to happen. It's bad business to do it.

Mexico is the next Michigan. That's reality.

rockylee

Three links:
HHR production
Avalanche production
Saturn Ion being killed replaced by Opel Astra from Europe; Saturn Vue production moving to Mexico .. from GMInsidenews blog

kd, I honestly appreciate you taking the time to gather that info. I did know the Avalanche was made in Mexico, when it was first introduced and is one of the reason why I didn't buy one.

I didn't know the HHR was made in Mexico or honestly believe the "VUE" was going south. Well you sure gave me a kick in the groin. *ouch!!!!* :sick:

This is precisely the head-in-the-sand view that I was speaking about. Why would GM ( or Ford or DCX? ) move production of low margin vehicles from a low-cost nonunion labor location outside the US to a high-cost and unionized labor site back in the US? It's not going to happen. It's bad business to do it.

Mexico is the next Michigan. That's reality.

It's a sad reality because GM and Delphi, not many years ago had some major quality issues in Mexico, and were talking about bringing some production back to the U.S.

Something needs to be done at the federal level to stop this flood out of our country. I will refuse to buy anything made in Mexico, if I can help it.

Rocky

lemko

Funny thing with all those "well-paying" jobs available at Mexican factories, people are still flooding over our southern border to do fast-food and other assorted minimum-wage jobs.

rockylee

I know lemko.....It doesn't make any sense does it ?

With the media hyped about Obama and Hillary neither one in my estimation will do anything to stop or fix the problem. Hillary will probably be to much of a free market supporter like her husband. Obama, doesn't really have a chance. Edwards, I don't think has the finacial backing to push him at the top like Hillary, even though he IMHO has the best plans to keep manufactoring in this country. Duncan Hunter, has said he wants to keep manufactoring in this country but that could be lip service. I think if we let manufactoring jobs disappear like they are we are doomed unless the Toyota's and Honda's keep building plants here to reduce the affect on our economy. I however don't see enough being built to replace the ones we have lost and like you said when they own the market what's going to keep them from pulling up the anchor when the same job can be done in Mexico for a fraction of the cost. :sick:

Rocky

210delray

when they [Toyota and Honda] own the market what's going to keep them from pulling up the anchor when the same job can be done in Mexico for a fraction of the cost.

Well, because they both spent millions of dollars building brand new plants in the US and Canada, and suppliers have also set up shop nearby, they're not going to abandon those large investments -- wouldn't make sense.

geo9

YUP............Good old toyota looking out for the good old USA !

New tacoma plant in BC Mexico.............
tacoma and tundra truck beds made in mexico and shipped here
for assembly.................

Heck, toyota doesn't even trade stock here in the USA !
What you get is a ADR (American depository recipt) instead !
Which represents 2.....YES 2 share of actual toyota stock !
Lets not forget the BIG 17 cents PER share dividend that toyota pays its "stockholders" SEMI-ANNUALLY !!!!!!!!!!!

NOTE: that actual toyota stock (like you could buy in GM, Ford, Coke etc) CANNOT be sold in the USA because yota
refuses at abide by US stock traDING LAWS,SEC regs, accounting methods etc., etc...................
(toyota.com has the details for you NON believers)

Sheep to the slaughter believing toyota is a savior to the USA ! :P

Kirstie_H

Folks, this discussion is about Toyota and not about GM or foreign workers. It is also not about discussion hosting policies. We're simply not going to turn every discussion into an import v domestic battle.

The only reason why americans go to Mexico on vacation because it's so cheap !!!!!

You've gotta be joking. Sweeping generalization that's just flat-out wrong.

I have hispanic co-workers who's family's live in mexico that won't go back to see their parents and family's because certain area's have gotten so bad.

Instead they may choose to visit "certain areas" in NYC, LA, or Detroit, where safety is priority numero uno.

It's comments like these that send a discussion WAY off the rails and they don't contribute to the automotive content, nor to reasonable debate about the issues. Let's steer clear of generalizing about other countries and the people who originate there, OK?

bigo08

Toyota is recalling Tundra pickups and Sequoia SUVS right before the launch of the 07 Tundra

Ha I love it

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119283

geo9

Seems the transmission problems and related posts
around Edmunds forums on the "flawless wonder car"
07 camry keep mounting daily................

It is ALL lies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

scape2

"Toyota is recalling Tundra pickups and Sequoia SUVS right before the launch of the 07 Tundra

Ha I love it

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119283

Funny, once again. The only place I have read about this recall is right here on Edmunds by someones link.. I have not hear it on the news nor read it my local paper??? Why??
Yet another crack in Toyota's armor? What do you want to bet however, this is the 08 Truck of the year next year?

kdhspyder

Here is a hint.

I just did a search on our local paper, which I belive is owned by the NYT, and the last article on automotive recalls by any automaker was 18 months ago, July 2005.

It's a subject not worth printing apparently. People get notices and then they get the fixes done. That's not very exciting it's not something to drive up newspaper sales.

Of course auto makers and local dealers are among the largest advertisers in any newspaper. Printing low-level interest stories on a weekly basis "GM recalls.....", "Toyota recalls.....", "Ford recalls......", "Honda recalls....." may be seen as putting its advertisers in a bad light.

british_rover

Just google 'Toyota Sequoia recall' and select news stories...

Google

eltonron

Here's an article on the Toyota Sequoia Recall, posted this morning.

Eltonron
Host- Automotive News & Reviews

rockylee

Toyota, don't feel bad your sister Honda is also recalling vehicals.

It's ashame edmunds.com is the only major source reporting it.

Conspiracy ? :P

Well it shows edmunds.com isn't all that biased after all. Perhaps next time they (Toyota) better open their pocket books a little wider to keep edmunds lips locked

Rocky

kdhspyder

It's been all over the internet since last week.

rockylee

Well I never saw a related news story on the sites I visit. Of course last week I didn't visit very many.

Rocky

british_rover

Look at this post...

Here

lokki

The continuing recalls are hurting Toyota - as they should.
Who wants a car with problems when there are other choices?

...Art Spinella, of CNW Marketing Research, Bandon, Ore., said recalls will hurt a company whose reputation for quality has been bulletproof.

"We have already started to see some of the perceptions of Toyota deteriorate because of this kind of stuff--problems with Tacoma, Tundra, and Prius," he said. "Little things, but I think one thing that has hurt them the most is seeing Hyundai beating them in a couple of major categories" in the J.D. Power Initial Quality Study, which measures new vehicle quality.

"Many focus groups thought that was a fluke, but when it happened two years in a row it changed from a fluke to an eye-opener," he added.

"It's little things, and that's what hurt [consumer perception of] GM--one little thing after another."

carguy58

Toyota's getting bashed. I mean they are like any other company thats trying to make money. GM sells cars outside their home country too. Toyota is hitting a rough spot but the Domestics have had their rough spots too. Remember it took years and years for the Domestics to damage their reputation. It wasn't like it was a overnight thing.

I mean I like Mazda but Toyota fans have bashed me in the past but I don;t hate Toyota or anything like that. Every car make has their problems. I mean Toyota is much bigger than even going back to 1997-1999 period in the US. Their market share was 8.5&% of the US market in 1998 and in 2006 it was 15.3% of the Us market. I mean thats a big difference. Toyota had a small vehicle line-up in the US in the 80's. They didn;t have Lexus back then in the 80's. The Camry was not a big seller like it has been since its 1992 redesign in the US. Somewhere around the mid 90's is when Toyota(fever) popularity started to escalate in the US.

carguy58

"We have already started to see some of the perceptions of Toyota deteriorate because of this kind of stuff--problems with Tacoma, Tundra, and Prius," he said. "Little things, but I think one thing that has hurt them the most is seeing Hyundai beating them in a couple of major categories" in the J.D. Power Initial Quality Study, which measures new vehicle quality."

"It's little things, and that's what hurt [consumer perception of] GM--one little thing after another."

Well if Toyota keeps on having these problems their sales will start to decline(in the long term) in the US. It took years and years for GM's reliability problems to catch up with them in terms of sales declines in the US.

drjames

I completely agree with you carguy58, IMHO, some of the posts here are simply a result of a protectionist attitude. Anything that threatens American "dominance" is hated.

kdhspyder

.. it will end up as a customer service issue.

If the recall/service is done efficiently and quickly with little inconvenience then it's like it never happened to 99.99% of the people involved. I had two recalls done to my vehicles last year. Yawn, done during a normal oil change and there was no effect on me.

Quick does anyone remember which company lead all manufacturers in recalls in 2005? Who was 2nd? 3rd? Nope didn't think so.

If handled properly then like every other hurdle in sales it's just another way to win customers over or keep them coming back. ( Hmmmm now there's an off-the-wall outside-the-box idea. Issue a recall in order to get all prior Tundra/Sequoia customers back into the Service Dept/Showroom just as the new Tundra is coming out. No, couldn't be that easy. ) I'm way too cynical.

But what about gasoline prices? Last year gas prices jumped up over $3/Gal again for the 2nd time in 12 months and owners dumped all their big trucks and SUV's and snapped up all the small cars in the market.. all of them at one point. Then Toyota launches it's biggest risk yet a $3 Billion investment and gas prices are dropping to the lowest levels in two years. Nahhh just a coincidence I guess.

Fortunate timing ... on both the recall and the drop in fuel prices. Forget I even mentioned it

mcdawgg

Just remember one thing: Toyota has more money than anyone, so they can easily fix any quality issues. It may take a few years, but they will be fixed. Toyota admitted they were having some issues, it is not like they have their head in the sand or they are trying to hide it. And not only did they admit it, they have the cash to fix the problems!!

Also, I still don't see any other brand that is really, truly better right now - they all have issues, and I don't see one that stands out above the rest. Toyota may not be clearly number one right now, but I don't see any other outright winner in the quality/reliability contest.

210delray

...is a farce. What does 90 days of ownership tell you?

(This from a guy who kept a Volvo 240 for 21 years.)

drjames

210delray, JD also has long term studies and awards, along with consumer reports.... everything I've ever seen has always reported the same things. And the same few brands always top the charts.

kdhspyder

I agree the mfrs and NHTSA are more likely to do a recall. But it sounded like you were implying THAT was the reason for the increased Toyota recalls, which I don't agree with.

But if the statistics, even as they go down from 2005 to 2006, include recalls for issues like carpeting and cupholders the statistics are certain to 'appear' to show a deterioration. Number of recalls goes up so it appears that quality goes down. Issues like these would never have been safety recalls in the past for any manufacturer.

I'm saying that the recall stats are too narrow a focus to determine if a manufacturer's quality is down or up. One huge recall of say 2 million vehicles from 1997 - 2004 ( way before the current range of quality being considered ) means nothing to a current evaluation of a manufacturer. It only means that vehicles made in the past period need correcting - nothing more.

To get an appreciation of the quality from this current period we will have to wait 3 or 4 or 7 or 10 more years.

lokki

Well if Toyota keeps on having these problems their sales will start to decline(in the long term) in the US. It took years and years for GM's reliability problems to catch up with them in terms of sales declines in the US.

I'm not so sure that Toyota will have the years and years of forgiveness that GM got, for several reasons:

1. The internet. News of problems spreads fast now days.

2. The competition. There are so many possibilities out there. During the years of GM's decline, your real choices were just more of the same - GM, Ford, Chrysler or some unproven foreign make. Nowdays, if you THINK there's going to be a problem with a car, there are plenty of other reliable brands to jump to. Why take a chance on anything with questionable quality now days?

3.Less Loyalty - I think there's less loyalty to Toyota than there was in the GM vs. Ford days. That is, a Chevy guy would almost never buy a Ford, but I believe that most Toyota guys would easily jump to a Honda without a flinch, Nissan with a shrug, Subaru with a nod, and Hyundai without a sigh if the price were right.

4. GM's problems almost never stopped the cars. Remember the old saying "GM cars run bad longer than most cars run at all" ? Well, Toyota's problems have been sludge and transmissions.... That's different than lousy panel fit, ugly interiors, or trim bits that come off in your hands. Those don't strand you in the rain somewhere.

Finally, I don't think that GM is the real comparable for Toyota in this situation. I'd suggest that Volkswagen might be a closer analogy. Recall that Volkswagen was a well established brand known for their quality back in their Beetle days. The Rabbit came out and sold great - so well that VW set up a factory in Pennsylvania.

Well, the cars that came out of that Pennsylvania factory were so bad that they nearly killed VW in the states within about 5 years - and it took VW years to recover their sales.

Obviously, I don't think that Toyota will fall that far or that fast, but I do think that if Toyota has two or three more prominent problems over the next few years, it could bite them very hard.

carguy58

I'm not so sure that Toyota will have the years and years of forgiveness that GM got, for several reasons:

1. The internet. News of problems spreads fast now days.

2. The competition. There are so many possibilities out there. During the years of GM's decline, your real choices for many years were just more of the same - GM, Ford, Chrysler or some unproven foreign make. Now, if you THINK there's going to be a problem there are plenty of other reliable brands to jump to. Why take a chance on anything with questionable quality now days?

3.Less Loyalty - I think there's less loyalty to Toyota than there was in the GM vs. Ford days. That is, a Chevy guy would almost never buy a Ford, but I believe that most Toyota guys would easily jump to a Honda without a flinch, Nissan with a shrug, Subaru with a nod, and Hyundai without a sigh if the price were right.

I agree with all 3 of those points. Your right about the internet point(point number 1 on your list.) I didn;t even think about that in terms of how it would effect Toyota sales more quickly than it affected GM sales in the 80' and 90's.

4. GM's problems almost never stopped the cars. Remember the old saying "GM cars run bad longer than most cars run at all" ? Well, Toyota's problems have been sludge and transmissions.... That's different than lousy panel fit, ugly interiors, or trim bits that come off in your hands. Those don't strand you in the rain somewhere.

I think GM had more problems than cars with terrible trim bits ugly interiors, lousy panel fit back in the 80's from what I hear anyway on these boards. Remember I'm only 27 years old.

Finally, I don't think that GM is the real comparable for Toyota in this situation. I'd suggest that Volkswagen might be a closer analogy. Recall that Volkswagen was a well established brand known for their quality back in their Beetle days. The Rabbit came out and sold great - so well that VW set up a factory in Pennsylvania.

I think Toyota is comparable to GM because of how many cars they have sold in the US and they(toyota)are a powershouse in the US. Remember too Toyota sold 2.5 million cars last year in the US. VW always had quality problems where as Toyota has that bulletproof reputation. VW has never been as big as Toyota(not in the US anyway) and VW only had a plant in the US for 5 years whereas Toyota has had their Kentucky Plant in the US since the late 80's and now has their new truck plant in Texas.

Obviously, I don't think that Toyota will fall that far or that fast, but I do think that if Toyota has two or three more prominent problems over the next few years, it could bite them very hard.

True.

210delray

But doesn't ol' JD stop at 3 years? Still not enough, not by a long shot. Consumer Reports is fine by me, but many (most?) on Edmunds think their reliability surveys are garbage or worse.

210delray

It wasn't just the Rabbits out of the PA factory that were bad. I had the first year model (made only in Germany, a 1975 -- my first new car) and it was JUNK. Then I turned around and bought another one, a 1979, the first year of PA production. This one was actually a considerably better by comparison, but still nothing to write home about.

I sold it after 33K miles to "trade up" to a much nicer used Volvo 240, the one I kept for 21 years.

drjames

"Consumer Reports is fine by me, but many (most?) on Edmunds think their reliability surveys are garbage or worse."

Of course they would take issue with CR, since the auto makers and vehicles they love so much and support historically do NOT do well. But, I'm sure you've noticed that when CR and JD Power and Associates has something positive to say about one of those vehicles, they love to tout the studies and rankings.

for long term studies, if you haven't seen this... (other manufacturers' data can also be found)...

http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranksToyota.htm

kdhspyder

No vehicle maker will be immaculate ever again. Everyone will be different shades of grey.

From the Detroit News article, Recalls for 2004, '05, '06
GM.... 17.4 Million
Ford . 12.7 Million
DCX... 9.2 Million
Toy... 4.7 Million

recent recalls

And there is no trend to be found in these stats GM/F/T could all go up again and DCX down as they all regress toward the mean

210delray

Actually no manufacturer ever was immaculate to begin with, going back to when recalls were first mandated by the landmark federal highway safety legislation of 1966. Does anyone remember the massive Chevy V8 engine mount recall in the early 70s? Or the even bigger Firestone 500 radial tire recall later in that decade?

It seems though now that as Toyota is closing in on being the world's largest automaker, their detractors are all to ready to fire darts at them.

dtownfb

this forum has taken off and has been all over the place (glad I am not the moderator).

I'll preference this by saying I have never owned a Toyota nor will my next car be one.

I see the recent recalls as a result of a company that has grown too quickly and one that constantly tries to remain on top (innovation). Toyota cars are at the top or near the top in every segment. To me that is amazing to see a company this large with such consistency. From the Yaris to the Avalon and Rav4 to the Sequoia. They were the first to create a line of cars targeting young buyers. they have the most successful hybrid (where is GM and Ford). They re-design their cars every 4-5 years. Ford is every 7 years. And now the CEO has said he is publicly embarrassed by the quality issues they have had. You would never hear that from GM or Ford.

the folks at Ford and DC should be very afraid. The fact that the CEO has stated that he is publicly embarrassed by the recent quality issues and Toyota has plenty of cash to fix these issues does not bode well for two companies who are struggling with nothing in place to turn around their fortunes.

I wish GM and Ford had the innovation that Toyota exhibits. Ford next big thing is an option that allows you to sync your cell phone and ipod to the radio using voice commands. Cool but I rather have a nice car with a fuel efficient 4 cylinder engine that gets around 35 mpg. GM looks like they are working their way in that direction but they still have so much to overcome. The good thing is they have finally realized that they will never achieve 30% market share again and are attempting to run their business in this fashion. And somebody finally got the message that it is about the product (although I don't think they can transform Saturn into what they want it to be). It still will be a number of years until they can stop relying on rebates and control their production. Honda still has the right business model in this regard.

I guess it is easy to target Toyota since it they are destined to take over number 1. Right now, as a company, Toyota has more American qualities then GM, Ford or DC. Innovation, entrepreneurial, quality, value, etc. Sure they are having some issues. When you have the kind of growth they are experiencing, these things happen.

As I mentioned before my next car probably won't be a Toyota either (buying this spring). It definitely will not be a GM or DC product. I need a break from GM. The Ford Fusion/Milan are still on my list but like I mentioned earlier wish the 4 cylinder was more efficient.