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Comments
I mean I want as much cargo space as I can get without the truck being a tank in parking lots & parking garages. Even my current 97' 4Runner has plenty of room behind the second row seats. You can keep the Mercedes ML & the BMW X5. There is absolutely no room behind the second row seats in those trucks. Where is the Utility in those. I also don't want to drive a Tohoe or Sequoia because those are HUUUGE trucks.
So my pont being the Acadia & Outlook seem to have the best of both worlds, but I am nervous about the reliability. I keep my vehicles for a long time as you can see,so that is a big deal for me.
The Lacrosse is also nothing special, in fact I think it's worse than the Regal it replaced.
Some Buicks can be "upscale", but definitely not luxurious. Heck, if an Audi A4/A6 is called an upscale sedan (I believe the A8 is the one that gets the luxury moniker), there's not way in heck that a Buick is luxurious in comparison.
And I apologize if I communicated my point poorly. I did not intend to say the VC was a definitively more luxurious vehicle than the Buick. I am saying that when one sits in a BASE Enclave as compared to the VC, I think you'd find that most would perceive the interior of the VC as more luxurious. Heated leather, sunroof, equal to or more room in front row, very nice dash lay out, etc.
I think I'd lean more to the Lambdas if I needed the third row for daily use. I don't. If you do, then there is certainly some value added in that super roomy back seat and the cargo space behind it. For our purposes (two little people who claim to be my children), the VC is huge. And my wife did not like the feel of the 202 inch long Lambdas when she tried parking them. (She's not necessarily the GREATEST driver on the planet...sorry honey!...love you!)
Hi Volkov. I'm in Southwestern Ontario. I don't know about BC, but there's plenty of dealing going on here by everyone. I WAS told by one GM dealer that the other GM dealer I was negotiating with would never give me the deal I wanted on the Enclave, but I had no problem getting what I wanted. The Toyota guy was great too. Maybe I was lucky, but I usually find that if you know the cost price, and you're willing to allow the dealership a modest profit, that they will usually deal with you.
As far as options on the Enclave go, other than the trailering package, the only option we wanted was the backup camera, but it was part of a $4300 Nav package. So we will just get an aftermarket backup camera, and use the Onstar voice navigation system or a portable nav system.
As to size, the Enclave may be bigger, but I certainly wouldn't call the VC mid-size. Can you provide your definition? Or is it another "anything smaller than a Lambda isn't full size"? What other CUV's are full size? From my viewpoint, I consider any of the vehicles with 3 real rows that could accomodate adults full size. VC qualifies on that score along with Lambdas,CX9, and TX. I think Highlander is the cusp between large and mid.
To those of you who have a Veracruz, I must say that it is an excellent vehicle. And I agree, that it is a well kept secret.
However, I will also say, that in "our opinion" the Enclave was the only vehicle we tested that "felt" like a luxury vehicle. And it was the only vehicle that was large enough to hold 6 of us plus our gear. My wife likes it better than the luxury SUV/CUVs that our neighbours have (Lexus RX400, BMW X5, Cadillac Escalade). And the Enclave won the AJAC award in Canada, competing against Mercedes and BMW SUV/CUVs. So, perhaps Buick is not quite a luxury brand, but in "our opinion", the Enclave is indeed a luxury vehicle.
I actually looked for a nav option on the Buick but couldn't find one on the web-site. I noticed it got the AJAC award for best SUV over $60k, but couldn't figure out how to get the build cost that high even getting every last accessory. I'm guessing $4500 for Nav would do it.
The lack of a nav/rear camera option is a big oversight for the Hyundai trying to go upscale. They could readily have made it an option and pawned development over to a third party. Most of the other brands do that anyway. I could care less, but after driving with the Nav and 8" display integrated with back-up camera on the Highlander, it's all Dra can talk about. She hasn't been excited about anything else vehicle related since getting her Bug 6 years ago. She's not a fan of add-ons either. Is there an aftermarket system that integrates Nav screen and camera display?
BC used to have this Toyota Access Pricing in place. They touted it as a no stress, hassle free pricing, but it was about $300-$500 off MSRP and they wouldn't deal. There were charges that it amounted to price fixing and I think there was actually a court case. Don't know how it turned out. But someone did tell me the name has been dropped but the practise continues.
Regards,
OW
For you it is, after driving TX/FS. I see this way lux:Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Lexus, BMW...., upscale: Buick, Mercury. \
Of course if you full loaded a Hyundai, it will look like lux car and same you can say about GMC or any other car. But is it?
What is define a lux car? standart options?
By the way Toyota Avalon is define in MT as lux car. (just example)
In my opinion, the lux car doesn't have cheap model or entry level (doen't have climate control, leather, alloy wheel, side airback). So Hyundai, GMC, Saturn......
and many other not a lux cars. (we're all taking about CUV only).
BTW: I find the whole luxury vs. non-luxury sniping to be amusing. I am not an emblem snob so I just look for a car that has all the features I want in the price range I am looking. Especially in CUVs and minivans. It's not like I am going to take it to the track and race the thing. I can see paying the extra coin for a BMW over a Chevy for the driving experience. But in the case of a CUV or a minivan it is silly to me. They are people/stuff haulers pure and simple.
We eliminated the CX9 from our list based on:
- Ride is more firm that what we were after. In buying this type of vehicle we wanted serene, smooth, quiet - limo like. Sporty feel was not required. If it is for you, I'd strongly suggest looking closely at the CX9 of all the vehicles we are discussing cause it's done a great job with that.
- VC felt roomier to us. Particularly wider.
- Price. When we outfitted the CX9 in the same fashion as the VC it was considerably more expensive.
- Appearance (just not our taste though I know many love it)
Also, until Cadillac comes out with their lambda equal, then the Buick will be the luxury GM CUV.
At the same time, how many of these vehicles are larger and wider than the VC? The GM's. The CX9 is longer but I don't think wider. It's a limited number. And I think the VC has as much or more first and second row room than either. I don't have time to check again but I recall that from when we were shopping. And then I guess you have all those behemoth boxes from several years ago like the Armada and Navigator. I have no idea how large they are, though looking at the two Nav's on my street they seem pretty damn big!
So I suppose a case can be made either way.
And I'm sure for all of us we are less concerned with "Full Size" or "Mid Size" than we are "Right Size" for our individual needs.
Sounds like a Lexus to me. Or maybe a Toyota, or Buick.
Lexus doesn't get much respect from the enthusiast community because many of them aren't sporty, but they will satisfy someone with your desires far better than BMW, for instance, where the feedback offered might be considered NVH.
With your criteria I think you're right on target in the top picks from this category.
If that's what you think, why did you say this yesterday?
I can agree with that, of course VC cheaper than Enclave. May be you need built an Acadia, because Buick is lux car.
If you are going to contradict yourself, best wait at least 24 hours to do it. That way some of us may have forgotten and it's less obvious. Instead of being sarcastic, maybe I should just say, "Thank-you for agreeing with me, Buick as a brand is upscale, not luxury."
I'm not sure what you mean with the crack about "...after driving TX/FS", my opinion comes after driving the BMW and the Mercedes also. The R-series was very nice, but there wasn't $30 more luxury there for me. (price diff from the VC).
So it hard to say is Buick enclave lux or upscale?
The alloy wheel, good entertainment center, safety futures (airbag), HID, power liftgate, 6 way power seats, auto-dimming mirror - all these standard and for 33,500 USD. Is it enough to qualify as a lux car?
Buick is claimed as a finest lux crossover.
It's a tough sell against the MDX, FX35/45, Mercedes R-Class, Volvo XC-90. Sure, the Buick is cheaper, but cheaper doesn't make anything "finer," just easier to buy and therefore less exclusive.
Who claims Buick is the finest luxury crossover?
It is lux and not at same time. If the count a fact that the leather seats as a option on CX and standard on next model up (CXL).
it's like Honda is claimed, that the Pilot is SUV, but we're here think - CUV
You have to take what manufacturers say about their own cars with a grain of salt.
Remember Chrysler's finest corinthian leather?
Do you have ANY idea how this sounds?! Really now, lets get over it - you - and a few others here who will not disengage themselves from this quibbling over inane definitions of luxury, or not are really hijacking this discussion.
Can we get on with talking about the merits of each platform, or new features coming, etc. ANYTHING other than this running diatribe for personal pride over who 'won the argument'. Get OVER it children.
Lets talk about the new direct injection engine that is coming out for the lambdas, or the fact that they are going to get heated/cooled seats, or the fact that blue tooth is coming for the platform (bet OnStar is going to like that).
In short lets move ON - PLEASE.
I'll take my cues from the host, not a tourguide.
Posting a response to any post just pushes the topic further. If you dislike it, don't reply to it - even skip posts from members you don't care to read from including myself. I was posting in response to another member who can't keep their story straight.
I love new topics, but please leave the personal criticism to the hosts; it's their job to guide the forum when things get off-track.
You are hereby nominated to kick it off!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Seems like it would be worth reducing horses to 290 if they could also get 280-290 lb-ft out of it for a vehicle as large and heavy as the Lambda. It would make those currently used to V8 torque feel a lot better if they had another 30 lb-ft I bet!
True enough. Europe has had DI for a long time - I am confused about why it took GM SO long to bring it here.
It looks like in the Traverse it is barely a gain in hp, but I have seen it discussed elsewhere that the engine is supposed to be tuned to deliver most of the torque at lower RPMs. This is VERY good news if it is true. The caddy motor delivers its specs at higher RPM - in the bigger vehicles this would not be a plus.
I am hoping it helps boost the city MPG, but I'm not holding my breath.
We are shopping for a replacement on my Highlander lease that is up in the spring of 09, so I am hoping the DI engine goes across the whole platform (as I have heard it will).
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Here are a few:
Styling on the highlander seems uninspired to me. I've been told my current 05 looks like a jeep. Out for dinner one night looking at the back of a new 08 (before they were more visible and around on the road) I mistook a new model for a jeep until I saw the badge.
Lack of a usable third row. Most of the time this translates into cargo space for us, but even this is valuable. When we do use the third row nobody is comfortable back there unless they are less than 30 weeks gestation, or a spider monkey.
Now we get to the real dagger in the heart of the deal, lack of available features. What features you ask? HID headlights, sonar backup system, heated/cooled seats (these are coming for the 09 lambdas).
Price for what you get seems out of line on the highlander.
Interior on the highlander seems a bit cheap to me. The gigantic dials in my 05 seem to have infected the redesign. I know they don't cost a lot to make, but they feel cheap when you touch them. Seats also are WAY to soft. This leads me to believe they will not hold up well over time. My 05 has firm seats (this is my preference), but the redesign feels, well, cheap and insubstantial. I don't necessarily mind sitting in softer seats, but squishy (which the new seats ARE) is a strike in my book.
Negative experience with the local dealer trying to shove add-ons at me at close on my 05. Really kind of ticked me off now that I think about it.
Toyota has a take it or leave it approach to features. Don't want a sunroof? Tough, you're getting it because it comes with that package. Then they make it difficult or impossible to order what you want. Not really customer friendly. Basically, if you can't find what you want on the lot, or at another dealer you are SOL.
How is that for a list?
Lol! I think the lambda vehicles match up with our needs very well right now. Reasonable fuel economy, decent styling, nice features. Seems a win. I worry about the reliability too, which my current highlander has been good about (bullet proof in fact) but buick is right up there in reliability with the big names (this is what I have read).
Almost ALL nav sytems suffer from some database problems. The ability to update the maps is important, but some errors seem persistent. I have a Garmin streetpilot and it seems that it takes about 3 years to get new items into the database. My inlaws new place in florida didn't show up until they had been there 3 years. Moral of the story - sometimes nav is wrong and you need to rely on the old fashioned maps. It DOES sound like this is an area GM could improve.
It's interesting to note that Mitsubishi actually was the first manufacturer to mass-produce and mass-market gasoline direct injection engines back in 1996. When they got taken over by Daimler in 2000, they killed the R&D and focused on the GEMA engines...
Unfortunately that meant they never saw use in the US...
Isuzu ended up being the first manufacturer to bring DI to the US in the Axiom.
Funny how the small guys never get any credit.
TIA
I only go to the Mazda events. I do get a lot of inside information about Subaru, though
Interesting bit there. Whenever I hear about stuff like that it makes sense to me why American auto manufacturers are in so much trouble. Makes you wonder who got PAID to make that decision.
DI engines are the next big thing on the auto scene here in the states now. Ford is making the leap and combining that with turbo. GM it seems is going to meter out the tech. Likely for GM turbo versions will come later, as they see more of a screaming need for effeciency. Hard to imagine GM can't see that now, but oh well. Ford will rule this tech for some time to come. Ecoboost will be big. Hard to see why they couldn't come with this tech faster really.
The two are likely similar in relability, so between the two, unless space is crucial for you, the nod would seem to go Mazda.
This is a problem with more than just the lambdas really. Our former Expedition had this same problem too. Whenever I sat in the second row seats I had this very same feeling. Lots of owners of mini-vans complain too of this same thing. It was most surprising to me though in our Expedition as this is a really big vehicle.
My personal view as to why OEMs do this kind of thing is to meet headroom needs and give a more spacious feel. Comfort does suffer though.
If you can wait until the 2009 Acadia comes out (if it has the direct injection engine and more torque and hp), I think the only factor between that and the CX-9 would be the looks.
We love the CX-9 so far. The engine/transmission is definitely more responsive than the Acadia, which I like, and my wife was more partial to the way it looks (i.e. the CX-9 is sleeker as compared to the Acadia). So it's a win-win for both of us!
I would go with the Acadia. GM's reliability and resale value are on the rise lately, and though Mazda's reliability may be a little better, I don't ever remember their resale being that great. For saftey, the Acadia got a 5 star crash test rating. What are your otherrequirements? Space? Comfort? Gas mileage?
I'd say the new Highlander isn't improved enough to keep up with today's competition. No split third row? No driver's memory seat. The Buick is so much nicer. But to stay in line with the sizes, if I was looking at something Highlander sized, I would buy the VC in a second and not even give the Highlander a second look. Seems like a lot of other CUV buyers agree as there are some big incentives on the Highlander right now.