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But it seems like you've decided on a CUV and you say you will "probably end up buying one, thereby keeping my self respect, and the boys from shrivelling away in embarrassment."
It's too bad you have to cave into peer pressure or believe and buy into the "stigma" of a minivan being for "soccer moms" - another made up "label". What if Dad's started hauling their kids and kids friends to other events? Then you could be considered a "football dad" a "wrestling dad", a "rugby dad", a "rock concert dad", etc. You get the picture.
Who gives a S..t if others have negative thoughts about the vehicle you drive. Drive what you like and want and can afford. Are you insecure? You couldn't keep your self respect if you bought a minivan ? That's ridiculous. I could understand if you don't like the outside appearance, but the interiors, the drive of some, safety features, options are as good as the CUV's.
So people bought SUV's to feel macho. How macho do they feel when they're flipped over on the side of a road or get crappy gas mileage and have gas guzzler fees. I don't think those drivers are macho. Other words come to mind.
I'm waiting to check out the Enclave and new Chrysler T&C or Dodge GC 2008 minvans coming this summer that look more aggressive than previous yrs. They're squared off more like the Durango and Aspen SUV's. Maybe the stigma will pass. And you can load up these 2008's with more features than any of the CUV's in the discussion.
The only thing some of the CUV's are better at is towing capacity.
Enclave may not have Bluetooth for awhile. Bummer - that's about the only thing missing that I would definitely want. The 2008's minivans have Bluetooth available. Hope I like them.
That works out to 20 inches by 6 ft2 which is equivalent to 2 or 3 rather large suitcases. I would consider that significant.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
The very fact that you drive a minivan aggressively tells me you really don't know how to drive.
Otherwise, you'd be cognizant of the handling constraints inherent to any minivan, based on the basic structure's design dynamics. Minivans do not give sufficient or accurate feedback at the limits. Therefore, you cannot be "in control" at the edge.
You are the definition of a bad driver, putting those around you in danger.
(Don't take my word for it. Go find any mechanical engineer and ask them. Better yet, ask a physicist who's into cars. They can explain the situation better than I.)
/it has that much?! It didn't look that much to me when i saw it. But the number still standes. only 10 more cuft of cargo for a vehicle that's over 20 inches longer!
The "only 10 more cuft of cargo" statement doesn't stand because it's incorrect. Where did you get this number? If there is 24CuFt more cargo space behind the 3rd row in the EL model, where do you get that there is only 10?
People have different assessments of what driving a vehicle to its limits means. I don't really think you can judge based on one post how carcom2 drives.
I was using the emasculating imagery simply to reinforce how silly our reasoning is to avoid minivans.
That being said, I probably don't like them because of the stigma that's been ingrained into my own brain over the years.
It's a vehicle type I associate with my parents' generation.
Besides, when it's all said and done, it's my wife's call on what we get, since she's the main driver of the family vehicle. Currently, she thinks she wants something with sliding doors.
Remember all: "A happy wife is a happy life."
Minivans and SUV's should not be driven "aggressively".
If people want to drive that way, buy a sporty wagon at a minimum.
Regarding the body roll on the GC, I've driven my uncles on several occasions, and always thought it was much worse than the Honda.
His is not a sport version, so that may make a significant difference. I don't know.
Actually I disagree with this statement. ANY vehicle can be driven "at the edge" whether it's a sports car, minivan or truck. The difference is that the "edge" of a minivan will be a lot slower around a corner than the "edge" of a sports car.
I have a Honda Fit that zips around corners and twisty roads better than my Freestyle, but driving on the highway I can just as easily take a entrance ramp pretty fast because for this type of driving, the Freestyle handles really well.
One of the reasons I bought the Freestyle was because it handles better then minivans I've driven and I was looking for a station wagon-type vehicle with a decent 3rd row. I don't like sliding doors because they're awkward to operate manually and the power ones are slow and to me look like a maintenance problem waiting to happen. Plus even with the best minivans, it still feels to me like my knees are up too high when sitting in the 2nd and 3rd rows as compared to my Freestyle.
So I bought the Freestyle because I won't be using the 3rd row all of the time, but when I do, I want to be able to hold adults and luggage behind the 3rd row. When not being used, I wanted to drive a big station wagon. For me, I didn't need the minivans extra interior space, so it wasn't worth it to me to sacrifice the handling, seating comfort, regular doors, less width and and less bulky feeling of my Freestyle to buying a minivan. We're a family of 4 with two adults 2 kids. If we had 3 kids, then I'd go with a minivan (Odyssey or Sienna) because I'd use the 3rd row all of the time.
For me that's the dividing line between CUV and minivan:
If you're using the 3rd row all of the time...get a minivan because you can't beat the 40+CuFt of cargo space behind the 3rd row of a minivan, nor can you beat the 40" of 3rd row legroom.
If you only need to use the 3rd row occasionally, then if the occasions are for kid use and limited cargo, then you can get one of the smaller CUVs, but if the occasionally use is for adults plus cargo, then get one of the larger CUVs.
And try not to care what your neighbor thinks...we're not in high school anymore!
Yes for both of them.
Which has greater 2nd row legroom?
The CX-9 has greater 2nd row legroom but less 3rd row legroom.
Agreed!
There is a Top Gear episode where a German race car driver took an off-the-shelf diesel delivery van around the Nurburgring and was passing Porsches, motorcycles, and everything else in her way. It was fantastic to watch the little, "top-heavy, underpowerd" van up on three wheels, in four-wheel-drifts, etc.
Point being, if a driver is truly skilled, they can do magical things with almost any vehicle - and the limits of all vehicles are higher than we usually think.
I was using the emasculating imagery simply to reinforce how silly our reasoning is to avoid minivans.
That being said, I probably don't like them because of the stigma that's been ingrained into my own brain over the years. "
So which is it? :P
I was using the emasculating imagery simply to reinforce how silly our reasoning is to avoid minivans.
That being said, I probably don't like them because of the stigma that's been ingrained into my own brain over the years. "
So which is it?
Both.
The difference is that, were I a shallow individual, I might not want a minivan because of the stigma, even though I LIKED them.
I do NOT like them, even though, with 3 kids, they are eminently more practical. We use the 3rd row in our Freestyle all of the time. Though, as the youngest gets older and will no longer need a stroller, the storage behind the 3rd row will be less important. So I can look at CUVs as a replacement 18 months from now.
On the flip side, I LIKE small, tossable convertibles, even though they are impractical for my current life. So I keep my little '98 Cabrio running, because I know I can't justify replacing it with the same type of vehicle.
The difference is that, were I a shallow individual, I might not want a minivan because of the stigma, even though I LIKED them.
I do NOT like them, even though, with 3 kids, they are eminently more practical. We use the 3rd row in our Freestyle all of the time. Though, as the youngest gets older and will no longer need a stroller, the storage behind the 3rd row will be less important. So I can look at CUVs as a replacement 18 months from now.
On the flip side, I LIKE small, tossable convertibles, even though they are impractical for my current life. So I keep my little '98 Cabrio running, because I know I can't justify replacing it with the same type of vehicle. "
I hear ya. We had a T&C for 3 years and it was very practical (and pretty well loaded, so it was a nice ride too). It didn't have stability control or side airbags or fold down seats, so we atarted looked at some new vans. At some point, I beleive partially because of "peer pressure" from some of her friends, my wife just didn't want to drive one anymore. Even though I was fine with it, I'm not the one driving it most of the time (and I get to drive my Mazda3s stick every day, as I too like small tossable cars). So, we looked at some used vehicles and wound up getting an 04 Navigator. It's a great ride, handles really great for a big vehicle, and has the full array of safety features and . I warned my wife of the gas mileage, and now it's starting to bother me (avg about)14 MPG. That's why I'm here - in a year or 2, I will hopefully be able to convice my wife to switch to a crossover that has just as much interior space and bells and whistles while getting much better mileage. We'll see...
Your reply - "carcom2,
The very fact that you drive a minivan aggressively tells me you really don't know how to drive."
Otherwise, you'd be cognizant of the handling constraints inherent to any minivan, based on the basic structure's design dynamics. Minivans do not give sufficient or accurate feedback at the limits. Therefore, you cannot be "in control" at the edge.
You are the definition of a bad driver, putting those around you in danger.
(Don't take my word for it. Go find any mechanical engineer and ask them. Better yet, ask a physicist who's into cars. They can explain the situation better than I.) "
Here ya go: Learn how to interpret what you read before you start jumping to obviously ridiculous conclusions. I said " I can be an aggressive driver because I know how to drive and test a car to it's limits" doesn't mean I drive like a maniac and flip the van for taking turns too fast. I'm a very careful driver even when I drive aggressively. I don't always drive aggressively, but when I do, know the limits of the vehicle, watch out for the other crappy drivers on the road talking on cell phones, etc. Am very aware of my surroundings. I've seen drivers with excellent handling cars that are bad drivers. Those are the bad drivers. The driver makes a huge difference on how safe one feels in the car. Right?
You have no idea how good a driver I am, better than most, and your accusations are false. And BTW, no need to ask a physicist. There's one in my family. I never put anyone in danger and my minivan gives me very good feedback as to the limits and after driving this minivan for 10 yrs. I know what I'm doing and talking about. And even test driving some newer Sienna's, I still thought my GC handled better. And that's why I passed on the Sienna although the loaded ones seem Lexus-like inside.
So stop generalizing and accusing.
That's right. You don't know. Glad you can admit that and that's one reason why you shouldn't have accused me of not knowing how to drive or saying "You are the definition of a bad driver, putting those around you in danger."
"Actually I disagree with this statement. ANY vehicle can be driven "at the edge" whether it's a sports car, minivan or truck. The difference is that the "edge" of a minivan will be a lot slower around a corner than the "edge" of a sports car. "
Glad to hear it. You hit the nail right on the head.
FOR A MINI-VAN
"Handles really well, takes turns fast and drives better and was more comfortable than many cars I drove then."
You need to drive better cars then.
"The minivan has come in handy for the great cargo space when needed to haul sheetrock and wood and stuff for when I was finishing my basement"
Absolutely, because thet's why Chrysler makes them.
"...and I can be an aggressive driver because I know how to drive and test a car to it's limits"
and bragging about one's "skills" behind the wheel of a mini-van seems ridiculous... how many laps do you have in your mini-van at Lime Rock where it's safe and LEGAL to "be an aggressive driver and test a car to it's limits"
I'm suspecting none...in the mini-van or otherwise. Do we even know what Lime Rock is???
"That being said, I probably don't like them because of the stigma that's been ingrained into my own brain over the years."
Seems like a contradiction. Seems like you don't like them because of the stigma or what?
OK. Now since that's cleared up, let's move on.
Looks like my observation of you was pretty accurate - It's too bad you have to cave into peer pressure or believe and buy into the "stigma" of a minivan.
How about we stop talking about each other's driving abilities and get back to the crossovers? Thanks,
Steve, Host
Well, Ford did it again. The Freestyle is based on the Volvo, this one appears to be based on the Rover. I sure hope is has better maintenance than the Rover...
It looks to be as if I can see a lot of Freestyle parts in that interior. The front console and shifter appear identical.
I also think the long rear sunroof is too far back. The second row is far more likely to have passengers on a regular basis.
It's built on the same chassis as the Freestyle.
2009 Ford Flex
Too bad Ford is doing it again...introducing something they have no intention of selling for more than a year hence. Other production ready concepts are usually unveiled a few months before Job One. Plus, Ford's gestation time for any new model still seems to be the longest in the industry. They need to fix that.
Shifter and console are not identical. Only common parts I could see that I see in my FS are the window switches, headlight switch, and rear view mirror poisition switch. That hardly constitutes a lot.
I'm guessing she won't like it (see below). I wouldn't cross it off my list, but I've been focusing on the Mazda and the Lamdas
When we passed a CX-9 the other day, I pointed it out as one of the new crossovers I liked. She said "it looks like a glorified station wagon." We're having some disconnect here
Kinda what I was thinking. It's ironic to me - in their rush to get out of the minivan market, Ford comes back with something more boxy than any current minivan
Must be why I like it - too bad sliders isn't an option.
OK, since we are getting into some more crossovers, we're going to rename this one - apologies in advance for any confusion.
Crossover SUV Comparison - nice ring to it eh?
Probably 2/3 of the people in the crossover/minivan market have no idea what driving dynamics are...
It's primarily about the "stigma".
My prediction is that many people will shy away from the Flex because of the design. Remember, Nissan tried to think out of the box and the Quest has been a sales disappointment, not even sniffing the solid Honda and Toyota numbers
The Quest is also significantly overpriced for what it offers. You can push it over $41k. Besides, minivans are very "inside-the-box" things. You can't make them too wild or people won't buy them.
People want crossovers because they think they are thinking "outside-the-box". If Ford can price this thing right and get the engineering right, I think they can significantly impact both markets.
so are the captains chairs in the 2nd row worth it in the long run for the Acadia?
The Toyota Sienna is still available in AWD, but be aware that it comes with run-flat tires (no spare) that many owners have complained wear out fast and are expensive to replace.
Trust me, it's boxy combined with the soccer mom image. Personally I like the fact I look out over a hood of reasonable dimension and have a crumple zone of some size in front of me & my family regardless of the safety numbers the mini-vans post.
"Probably 2/3 of the people in the crossover/minivan market have no idea what driving dynamics are..."
And add even more then that when you include all the arm chair test drivers in the various forums around the web who think their high school driver's ed is proper driver training and criticize, speculate on, and post opinion as fact on a car/truck/CUV because they parked next to one one day at the mall...but I digress...
back on topic,
"My prediction is that many people will shy away from the Flex because of the design"
People will embrace it specifically for the design, it looks like an xb(looks much better than any xb in my opinion) or even a xxxxl mini when you squint. If they get the interior right on it I might line up for one. Just wish it had a CVT.
The Quest is hardly an apples to apples scenario here. Nissan missed the mark plain and simple from solid competition. If Ford can take the year to screw this thing together properly and price it correctly it has great potential as it is more handsome than the lambda triplets, less cartoonish than the mazda, potentailly a better value than all of them and I'll take Volvo safety every day of the week if it is indeed based on Volvo underpinnings. It could be a winner.
Crossover SUV Comparison - nice ring to it eh?
Might I suggest adding "3-Row" to the title? Would hate to see this thread expand to include Edge, CX-7, Murano, Equinox, etc.
We forgot the Santa Fe...
Ah, but! Nissan has had solid hits with the Maxima and Altima, 350Z, Titan and Armada.....so one failure with the Quest isn't all bad. The Flex resembles the concepts of the FJ Cruiser, and will appeal to the same crowd, who likes to be "different", but wants an automatic transmission. If it's realy comfortable and made well, it'll sell....
The search engines don't like long titles, so let's try it a while like it is and see how it works.
We'll save the last available category for the Flex when it hits our lists.
Who's got the scorecard?
I don't see anything really good happening for Ford, in general, this year, into next. Ford Flex looks like an overgrown Mini Cooper, without the style or anything nice.
If anyone can see a bright spot, let me know. New Forum is up: Is Ford's End Right Behind Chrysler's?:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f12b513
DrFill