Subaru Legacy/Outback Engine Issues

ateixeira

Here is a pic that really shows it.

xwesx

Hahaha- wow, yep. That shot definitely nailed it. :P

krall

I have a 2001 outback wagon (4-cyl) with ~79K.
(1) Over the last 3 weeks the car has been chugging when accelerating from RPMs<2,000.

(2) This morning when I started my car the idle jumped up and down (b/w 850 - 1,750), the engine began to misfire and the check engine light began to flash - so I shut down the engine.

I attempted to remedy the first symptom (#1 above) by installing a new air filter, running high-test with an injector cleaner, and checking all vacuum hoses, sensor plugs, and the air-intake body (all &#147;looked&#148; fine). These remedies resulted in a (poss.) slight, albeit brief improvement; however, the symptoms grew noticeably over the last 2 days. For example, yesterday the chugging (poss. Misfire) began to occur at higher RPM&#146;s (<3000) and today the car is suddenly not drivable (see #2 above).

Thanks in advance for any suggestions regarding what else to check before getting it towed to a garage OR what the likely problems are?

ateixeira

Spark or fuel, so I would consider:

* spark plugs
* spark plug wires (though I think yours doesn't have those)
* ignition coil
* fuel filter
* fuel pump?

Probably one of those. Do you know what the code was? Do you have access to an ODB2 scanner?

krall

Unfortunately I don't have the error code. I can get access to an ODB2, but it will take a few days (I lent it to an out-of-state friend). Would the OBD2 simply give an error code relaying a misfire or would it detail which cylinder actually misfired?

I should note that the check engine light only came on this morning when symptom #2 (from original post) began and it only flashes (not constant).

The spark plugs have ~ 15k on them, so I assume that their probably OK.

Thanks again for your help and I welcome any further thoughts.

ateixeira

It will identify which cylinder, if it is indeed a misfire.

I'm thinking plugs, or ignition coil. The one for my 98 Forester only cost $80, and there is only one to buy. Not bad.

krall

The error codes were P0303 and P0304 (misfire in cylinder 3 & 4, respectively).

I started the car this evening - it started fine and ran no different than during the last 3 weeks (retained symptoms described in #1 of original post)…

Could be coincidence, but during yesterday afternoon and this morning (car ran poorly, at best) there was blowing drizzle with near 100% humidity; however, this evening (car ran better) it was cool and dry. Can humidity affect the ignition system?

I should also note that my coil is original, plugs have 15k on them, and wires…. not sure whether I changed them with the plugs? I&#146;m I correct to start with wires ($30) and if that doesn&#146;t work go for the coil ($120) &#150; I just hate to put in a new coil if I don&#146;t need one.

Thanks again for all your help.

paisan

Have your alternator and battery checked. Could be a low voltage issue, especially if the misfire is in more than 1 cylinder. Could be the coil pack as well.

-mike

krall

Thanks Mike,

I had the battery and alternator tested by a local parts store when the symptoms first began. Both the battery and the alternator tested fine, but I could swing by and get them tested again.

If both test fine, would changing the coil be the next move or is there an intermediate step to ensure that the coil is the problem?

Thanks again.

paisan

Wires before the coil, but then the coil.

After that you have to look to fuel injectors.

-mike

ateixeira

I agree with mike.

You probably need wires anyway, as a part of preventative maintenance.

Shop around for the coil, I only paid $80.

Better yet, I used Subaru Bucks from my Chase Subaru Master Card, so technically it was free. :shades:

krall

First and foremost, thanks to both ateixeira and Mike for the suggestions.

I replaced the wires last night, which made an incredible difference. The engine runs noticeably smoother both while/immediately-after starting and when under load.

I'll keep a watchful eye on it and if the symptoms return I replace the coil (and I'll post to let others know).

I can't express how thankful I am for your advice. Thanks again.

ateixeira

Holy cow, I was actually right?!

You're welcome, glad it helped.

paisan

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

krall

Two days ago (rainy day with 100% humidity) my check engine light came on while driving. The car was not running as smoothly as it has over the last week (since replacing wires), but not nearly as poorly as before the new wires. The error code was P0325 (Knock Sensor), I haven&#146;t seen this error before.

Yesterday (dry weather, little humidity) I took a mister and misted the coil to see if the car would run rough (chug, poss. misfire) with a &#147;damp&#148; coil = this appeared to have no effect on ignition (car ran fine). The check engine light has now gone off, but I assume that&#146;s b/c the car has restarted (cold-start) and run a few times with no errors.

My original plan based on the responses above was to get a new coil &#150;does the &#147;Knock sensor error&#148; still support a new coil OR should I be thinking of something else?

Thanks again.

xwesx

Try misting near the air intake - moisture sensitivity may indicate a dirty airflow sensor. If it is sensitive, you can easily pull the MAS out and clean the element, then try the procedure again.

pavelp

I changed my oil today (140000 miles on the car) and there was only about 2.5 quarts that drained from the oil pan. this never happened before. I have always changed the oil myself at 3500 miles. Is a sign of a problem developing?
Paul f

paisan

When did you change the oil last? When did you check the oil last?

-mike

pavelp

I changed the oil around 3500 miles ago and i never checked the oil, because it never was lower than 4 qts at each oil change.

paisan

You should routinely check your oil, at least 1x every 1,000 miles.

There could be any one of a multitude of reasons why it may or may not have been low on oil, or appeared to be low on oil.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

pavelp

could you be a little more specific at to the multitude of reasons, so i can have some idea what to look for.
thanks

pavelp

the only reason i never checked the oil was the fact that every time i changed the oil, i poured the used oil back into the gallon container the new oil was in and it always showed at least 3.5 quarts in the container. I will definitely start checking it every thousand miles.. i was surprised to hear that 1 qt per 1000 miles is acceptable. want .

paisan

Yeah most manufacturers have that spec, to cover themselves. My Isuzu Trooper took about 1Q per 1K miles.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

paisan

Well if you went 3,000miles most car manufacturers specify 1Q per 1,000 miles is acceptable use.

Other reasons could be extended high speed runs.

Could not have been filled fully at the previous oil change.

I just have to question why you haven't checked your oil in 3500 miles. That's craziness!

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

blufz1

Curious how long the Trooper lasted miles wise w/the burn rate? Can an enginge go 150-200k burning oil?

paisan

It's got 150k on it now and my dad still daily drives it. I also towed a 6,000lb race car trailer with it for the first 90k miles.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

shaddie

My little car has been running great since I got it, has been getting great gas mileage and all things we love about Subarus were good.. Until recently.

It's got a brand new engine in it, and it's been regular in all of it's maintence & etc.

But I just had the thermostat replaced, and now it's trying to die on me when in Idle. The car kind of shudders, it reminds me of a clutch, but it's an automatic. I'm convinced it's the alternator going? I was told last summer that the alternator wasn't working as well as it should be, and it wasn't charging the battery with the AC on in idle (which I learned the hard way after killing a battery). Now it's doing this.

And it's kind of weird about when it decides to do it. Normally right after I start it up, it sometimes might not do it until midday.. Or about 2 hours later..

The steering wheel also sometimes vibrates pretty bad when I'm driving on the freeway, I kind of need to know what that's all about.

I'm planning some extensive maintenance on the car once summer hits, but what I really need to know is what is probably going on, and how long might I have until the thing dies at a stoplight? And if I should be driving it period.

It's happy enough to start, and for the most part runs great, but there's a couple times where I've wondered if it smells like it's leaking coolant somewhere. But I recently had the hoses flushed too.

It's almost a brand new car, the engine has under 70000 miles on it, it's probably around the 45-50k mark.

I also know I need to have the radiator replaced (as was suggested to me by the mechanic who put the thermostat in)

The biggest thing I'm terrified of is blowing the head gasket. Because I really can't afford that fix!

Any help/insight would be very much appreciated!

Oh, and the check engine light has been on ever since I bought the car. Not sure why.. It was off for maybe about a day and half after I got the battery replaced, but then it turned back on after I ran the car in idle with the AC on for a few minutes. So I assumed it was just the faulty alternator.

xwesx

I recommend that you first get an OBD-II reader. They are inexpensive and will allow you to know the codes stored in the computer.

It sounds to me like the problem you are having is sensor/computer related, as it does not occur until the car's diagnostics have run during the driving cycle.

dakotadriver

I bought a 2001 Outback wagon last Spring with 113k on it (2.5l engine). It has 124k now. I replaced a front O2 sensor last summer, and had an aftermarket catalytic converter put on in the fall. It was getting about 24mpg until it got really cold here, at which point it has been averaging about 18mpg. I also have started noticing an anti-freeze smell after driving for awhile (rarely inside the car). My wife commented that she smelled it in the garage just after I got home from work. I've noticed it coming from the car after I park it at work, etc. I have never noticed anything leaking. It is not overheating at all. It seems to be running good otherwise. The check engine light always comes on now when I take it on the interstate and always comes back as cat efficiency. This has happened from the day the mechanic told me it needed a new cat, and even after the new one was installed. It only happens when I take it on the interstate though, never around town driving. I put a new air filter in thinking that that was an inexpensive and easy thing to do to check if the mileage increased. I haven't noticed anything yet, but haven't even went through a full tank since then. Could this be the dreaded head gasket thing I've been hearing about, or something else? What should I do about it at this point?

xwesx

At this point I am suspicious about there being coolant residue in your exhaust, which likely would mean an internal head gasket leak. If there is, the coolant will foul your oxygen sensors very rapidly. The reason you get the CEL illuminating during highway driving is because the car completes diagnostic checks that require highway driving, and one of them is failing. If your mileage continues to be poor, it is likely a result of inaccurate or no feedback from the oxygen sensors. If the sensors are not working altogether, you should get a code indicating that. In order to fix it, if coolant is the cause, you will have to address the leak before you can replace the oxygen sensors unless you want to replace them repeatedly and often.

dakotadriver

I was worried about this being a head gasket thing. The code that the mechanic always reads is cat inefficiency, which they told me meant that the aftermarket cat would need to be replaced by a factory part, and never that a sensor was going out (of course, they never got that code when they changed the first sensor, which made the car stop idling rough so I know that was the actual problem). They said they did not believe it was an oxygen sensor, but I could never rule that out myself due to the lowered mileage (seemed to make sense to the novice). I don't remember the anti-freeze smell until a few months after the converter was changed. Would this be something that would not be noticeable at first, or maybe more noticeable in extremely cold weather?

xwesx

It depends quite a bit on quantity and temperature. If there is only a tiny amount being vaporized in the exhaust, you very well may not smell it. It will still foul sensors and the cat, but the nose could be oblivious. If there is more now, you may smell it. If it condenses in the air in cold temperatures, you might also notice it more because it lingers. Very hard to say, but I would definitely consider the head gaskets as suspects and proceed by eliminating or confirming them as a problem.

dizzle2

Discovered my Outback 2.5i was burning oil after only 40,000 km at which time the dealership put me under oil monitoring program. At 52,000 km dealership stripped down the engine under warranty to find valve stem seals leaking/damaged and one head had dropped.

All was repaired at no cost to me..but has me doubting all the great stuff I've heard about these vehicles when I decided to purchase. Have also heard this is a common problem for 2005 model year!

Is this an isolated incident? Should I be worried about this down the road once warranty runs out?

dakotadriver

I took it in this morning. After poking around a bit more I noticed it was definitely coming from the engine bay, but I still couldn't notice anything dripping or bubbling out from anywhere in particular. I didn't notice anything in the exhaust, but I wasn't willing to inhale too much of it while walking around behind the car. I will pass along what I find out to see if this was the problem. Thanks again.

xwesx

Yours is the first I have personally heard of this problem. As 2005 MY is approaching 4 years of vehicles on the road, I would expect more postings about this. 52,000 km is fairly low still, I am sure there are quite a few '05s out there with 60-100,000 miles on them.

Also, what does "one head had dropped" mean?

rebel71

Wow, I can only imagine how much a rebuilt engine would have cost if not under warranty. Previous model years were known for head gasket issues. I'm curious about this particular issue and am going to do some research. Sorry to hear about your engine, it's quite frustrating when a car w/ low mileage has a major problem like this.

tapj

I have a 92 Subaru Legacy, 2.2L,non-turbo,5-speed. (wife's car).170K miles
Would not start. Had it towed home. At first, I thought it was a Elec problem. Decided to look at the timing belt. I took the two side covers off the timing belt housing. Thinking the timing belt was broken. Belt is intact and has teeth. The engine turns over, and the Alt. belt is turning, but timing belt is not moving, at all.
There are no unusual noises, or burning rubber smells. I'm not sure where to go from here. Is this engine toast? Tapj :

xwesx

Take a look at the timing sprocket on the crankshaft. Is the sprocket turning with the shaft? If it is, then the teeth on the belt must be shorn, which could mean the belt failed or a camshaft froze. If it is not moving, then perhaps the "key" on the shaft is shorn. Those are easy to replace, but if it did shear, you might also have something seized.

You might start with removing the timing belt and checking whether you can turn each of the camshafts by hand.

dizzle2

Not really sure what it meant...other than one of the cylinder heads wasn't working in coordination with the other 3? From the time we bought the car there have been problems. It would idle around 900 rpm before dropping back to 400 rpm for a few seconds..then back up. We had a starting problem which the dealership needed a week to figure out..or come up with some kind of a solution. Last resort they replaced the fuel pump. This icon says it all.... :lemon:

xwesx

Very sorry to hear it, but unfortunately it does happen. Considering that these cars are a very precise marriage of mechanicals with electronics, one mistake upon manufacture can manifest itself into endless headaches and symptoms.

bsasser

I have 1995 Legacy and the battery was going dead on me for a month, often while driving -- radio and gauges would go out, then lights dim. When I cut off the car it wouldn't recrank without a jump. Had battery, alt., and starter tested a couple of times at Autozone and they tested ok. Finally replaced battery a couple of weeks ago and that seemed to solve problem--have driven 1000 with no problem. Then last night the new battery starts to go dead while driving. Understand there is a diod or reg. in alt that won't show up on AZ test. Was wondering if that is most likely culprit, if there's a good way to test for sure, and how easy it would be to replace on my own. Understand that removing and bolting in new alt. is pretty straight forward, but I'm worried about getting the belt on an adjusted correctly

xwesx

Replacing the alternator is extremely simple. It takes about 20 minutes, give or take a few. Even installing and adjusting the belt is quite simple.

All you need to do is remove the electrical from the top of the alternator (one is a connected via stud and the other is a plastic plug), loosen the holder on the belt tension adjuster, reduce the belt tension to the point it slips off the alternator, pull the alternator, and then reverse the process with the new one. If you are worried about belt tension, check it now and duplicate that. It should have about a 1/4-inch of deflection from side to side. It needs to be tight enough that it does not slip but not so tight as to wear out the pulley bearings.

The last time I replaced my alternator ('96 Outback), I did it in a friend's garage. When I arrived, he said, "I am just finishing up dinner and then I will come down to help." When he came in the garage after twenty minutes, I was closing the hood. Simple.

paisan

Also note that you need to charge your battery before doing an alternator replacement. If you've worn down the battery, the alternator will burn out trying to revive it and you'll start the process again.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

garabaldi

This car has not been a joy to us. There have always been odd odors and "hot" smells that occur. Every time we back out of our driveway exhaust smells enter the car. We had the transmission replaced after numerous trial fixes (each a trip to the dealership). We have changed oil diligently at 3,000 - 4,000 miles, but on a number of times the gasket on the drain screw has been left off and we slowly lost oil. Evidently, it happened again, but this time we have be distracted by personal problems and ran all the oil out and lost the engine. The temperature gauge never varied and no idiot lights came on. We won't get an estimate until Monday. Any idea what this should cost us in Minnesota? :lemon:

paisan

Turbo or non turbo?

I'd say somewhere in the $3-5k range.

Also how can you blame Subaru for something that was clearly user error?

-mike

garabaldi

Clearly user error, Mike? What about the warning lights and temp. gauge - there was no "check engine" no "low oil" no rise in temperature. Why does this gasket come off so readily? I'll let you know what the diagnosis turns out to be.

paisan

I've done 100s of oil changes on Subarus, and sometimes that gasket is there, sometimes it isn't. If you lost all your oil due to the gasket coming off, I'd be very very suprised. How did you not notice oil leaking though? The oil pressure low light does work on these cars, cause I've ran my car low on oil and when pulling out of a light I've seen it flicker on. However, if you consistently ran it low on oil, the oil low pressure light wouldn't help you because the damage was already done. I'm fairly sure that the loss of oil over the course of 3-5k miles is what did you in wearing down internal components. That's why you need to check your oil, IIRC 1x every 1k miles and add more as needed.

If anything you should be blaming whoever changed the oil for not tightening the plug fully, but even then, you should still be checking it regularly.

-mike

paisan

Check engine light- is generally for electrical issues.
Low Oil pressure light- only comes on when the pressure is super low, it tells you that the car has just blown up, that's why a lot of folks don't like em, hence "idiot lights"
Temp Rise- may not have had a coolant temp rise.

ateixeira

drain screw has been left off and we slowly lost oil

That's not clear to me, if the drain plug is left off the oil would pour out rather quickly. Am I missing something? :confuse:

Having said that, a low oil level warning light should definitely have kicked on, either way.

paisan

There is no low oil indicator on any subarus. There is a low oil pressure light but that is all.

-mike