SOA Warranty Problems & Questions

larryak

Up till the "fresh vs. recirculate" moment I thought we were making progress. Just for grins, here's what happened that day:
I dropped the car off on Tuesday A.M. I had a bad omen because the AC was working when I dropped the car off. Received no updates until I called on Thursday at which time they said they had not been able to replicate despite repeated attempts. Too late to pick up that day so I go in Friday noonish to pick the car up. The service advisor that I'd been dealing with was out to lunch, but another advisor was pulling lunch duty. I insisted on him being present as I started the car. Low and behold, the AC is not working. Compressor pulley is not engaged, no cooling fans operative, etc... Just warm air coming out of the vents since it was parked in the sun. Now this is where I made my "fatal" mistake. I noticed that it was set to recirculate, which I hardly ever use. So I switched to "fresh". Anyway, the guy agree with me that it was not working. We ran it for 5 minutes or so, during which time the compressor pulley never engaged. Since the adviser I had been dealing with was not expected back for 20-30 minutes I turned the motor off and walked down the street to have lunch. When I returned the two advisor's and the mechanic were gathered around the car and as I walked towards them the meeting broke up and my adviser announced that they had found the problem. Although dubious, I said "great!". This is where it got "fun". The AC was now working, pumping out plenty of cold air. They said the reason that hot air was coming out earlier was because the "fresh" air was being pulled in over the warm hood. Somewhere around here the service adviser who was present when the AC was not working scurried off. I then pointed out that earlier the cooling fans had not been running and the compressor pulley was not engaged as I would expect based on my previous observations during periods when it was cooling properly. In the ensuing discussion it became apparent that even the mechanic was seemed unsure about what cooling fans should be operating when the AC was on. Anyway, I wasn't getting anywhere and had to get back to work so I left. That weekend I emailed Subaru.

During '06 I had the car in for 3 "official" visits, the first in Feb, the last in Sept. Plus there was at least one other unannounced visit when I took the car there while it was malfunctioning and demonstrated it to the service adviser.

Does anyone have an opinion on if there is anything to be gained by talking to the regional rep or asking for someone higher in the organization? Does that ever work?

larryak

Actually, now that I think about it my digital camera will record for 15 seconds.
The issue with recording it is how do you prove a negative? If I show them video of the AC not working, who's to say that I didn't have the switch on? I guess I'd need to have a notary present during filming. :-)
A video might be useful in "proving" that I'm not hallucinating, but if they can't replicate on the premises and there's no service bulletin dealing specifically with "phantom" AC malfunctions then I probably would not have been much better off.

larryak

I think I didn't start beating on them right away because I expected the frequency of malfunction to increase over time, which should have made it easier to diagnose. As the standard warranty had already expired and the extended warranty had 18 months left there wasn't an urgent reason to bring it to their attention. Initially the car would go for a few weeks between malfunctions, and in '05 there was a period of several months when it behaved itself. Made a dealer visit easy to put off as the car was not in need of any other service or maintenance in early to mid '05.

Larry

xwesx

Well this (the service personnels' behavior) is very curious, indeed, because the problem does not seem to me like all that much of a mystery. Seems the problem is with the clutch on the compressor pulley, or with the electronics that control it. Either should be a relatively simple (labor-wise) fix unless the compressor clutch cannot be replaced independently from the compressor.

As for the cooling fans (I assume you are referring to the dual electric cooling fans mounted to the radiator for the engine coolant), they turn on based on the temperature of the coolant. I do not think they come on automatically simply because the A/C compressor is on, though the compressor does add a significant load to the engine at idle so it is far more likely to come on once the car is warmed up.

There are many times that my cooling fans do not run at all during the winter months (or very intermittently), even at highway speeds, simply because the ambient air temperature is cold enough to keep the coolant temperature down even without the forced induction.

paisan

The secondary fan comes on anytime the compressor is engaged on Subarus.

-mike

bogey5

Good Day All,

Five months and five thousand miles after the damage to and replacement of my front differential following a catastrophic draining of the differential during an oil change, the car is running fine. Mileage is as expected. No noise, no smoke, no smell, no nothing.

Thanks again to all those who offered advice and counsel during the height of the anxiety. I always recommend CarSpace to folks who are having car problems or questions.

Bogey5 (Pastor Steve)

paisan

Thanks for the update Pastor Steve! Hope all is well and spring is treating you well!

-mike

ateixeira

Glad to hear it. Thanks for sticking around to give us a long-term update. :shades:

xwesx

Absolutely. I am still amazed at how well this event worked out (thus far) for you; due mostly to your persistence! I refer to it frequently when musing "oops" scenarios with service centers.... I hope you do not mind!

bogey5

Don't mind at all. I think that anything that contributes to better service at service centers helps us all.

The weather in the Northeast is spectacular today and for any friends in the mid-west especially Greensburg, KS our prayers are with you.

acdial

Our follow-up: After breaking down in SC and having car towed to Subaru dealer in Savannah, car was diagnosed as having damaged differential and trans due to low differential fluid level. Subaru refused to cover under powertrain warranty (still in effect). They claimed mechanic must've drained fluid during most recent oil change (several days before break down). Took the issue to the mechanic, who said he would submit paperwork to his insurance company. We had to pester the mechanic several times before he finally gave us his insurance company contact info. We talked with an adjuster and submitted supporting documentation (service order from Subaru dealer, letter from SOA stating why they wouldn't cover under warranty, service records for the car showing regular required maitenance, etc.). Within 2 weeks of that, we got a check for $5,000 from the mechanic's insurance company. That amount covered the cost of repair, towing, and rental car. We actually traded the car as-is to the Toyota dealer affiliated with the Subaru dealer for a 2007 Rav4. The amount we lost in trade in value was also about $5,000. So we came out even and have a brand new car that we actually like better (roomier interior and better mileage than the Outback). It just took some persistance on our part. We still feel that SOA could have done a much better job in the customer service area. Due to that, we will never buy another Subaru.

ateixeira

Stories like that make me paranoid enough to change my own oil.

It's really the mechanic's fault, though, not Subaru's. How would you have wanted them to help more? I'm sure they backed off due to the liability issue.

paisan

I'm with Juice, how on earth could you hold SOA responsible for a mechanic's problem? That would be like me missing a shift and going into 3rd instead of 5th and blowing my trans, then complaining that SOA wouldn't cover it under warranty.

To each his own though.

-mike

snowbelter

I don't know how often this "mistake" with the wrong plug happens, but when it does the consequences are serious and expensive to fix. If these plugs are made of metal and look alike, couldn't Subaru stamp each of them with an O for oil, T for transmission, and D for differential?

ateixeira

Well, it's not a problem at dealerships. They seem to train their mechanics well enough to avoid that.

We had one Edmunds member take their Outback to Jiffy Lube and the same thing happened - they drained the transmission and then proceeded to overfill the engine oil. :sick:

I found at least one Sienna owner that had the same thing happen to them at a quicky lube place.

I'll do it myself, thanks.

bat1161

That is the risk you take not going to a dealer/knowledgeable party for service.

Years ago before I had my first OB I had a Honda Accord. On a trip up to Niagara Falls, on the Canadian side my transmission started to slip. I went into a Canadian Tire who said they could get me running to get home to Brooklyn for service. Turns out they put engine oil in the transmission so I had to get a new tranny. After going back and forth with them for a couple of weeks they finally reimbursed me the cost of parts, not labor. Wound up costing me enough that I started looking around for a new car. That's one reason I go to the dealer for everything now -this way there is a record.

Definitely have to watch what these guys do.

Mark

xwesx

It would be very difficult to pull the wrong plug by mistake. Anyone who has ever removed an oil plug would know exactly which one was for the engine oil. Sheer carelessness is the only explanation, in which case the party at fault should absolutely be held fully liable.

The fact that Subaru changed their differential plugs to a T70 Torx is a testament to their willingness to reduce the frequency of the problem... at the expense of mechanics and DIYs of course.

paisan

Also, anyone who is at all concerned about their work, or works in the auto-repair/mod environment, would CLEARLY know the difference between fluids coming out:

Motor Oil: Blackish/brownish/distinct odor/distinct viscosity
Differential Oil: Clearish-redish/VERY RANCID SMELL/significantly thicker than motor oil
Automatic Trans Fluid: Redish-brown/different odor from Motor or diffy oil, thinner viscosity than both those.

As Wes said, plain and simple old fashion lazyiness/carelessness is to blame, and marking the plugs with an O, T, or D would not help that!

-mike

subearu

At least on my '04 F-XT, the engine undercover is clearly marked "ENGINE" where the oil filter and drain are. I bet your '05 LGT has similar markings on the undercover.

-Brian

ateixeira

Absolutely correct, my wife calls it "gear oil cologne" and won't even get near me until I've showered - twice.

It doesn't look, feel, or even smell anything like used oil.

dbw001

Should I buy the extended warranty?

Should I buy any of the rust/undercoat/fabric packages that they have on sale for less than $200 each?

Thanks!

ateixeira

I'd say no to the undercoating, rust proffing, and fabric protection.

Maybe to the warranty. The warranty includes roadside assistance for the entire duration, and we got one and dropped AAA. That offset about half the cost of the warranty, which made it worth it to us.

dbw001

Many thanks. They did a pretty convincing sell of the undercoating, etc and had a very reasonable price, so I almost went for it.

Will think about the warranty - I guess I can purchase it anytime before the current warranty runs out.

cptplt

the undercoating and rustproofing can actually make your factory warranty invalid if not applied properly or they drill holes etc to spray box sections.
you can buy a can or 2 of Scotchgard and get the same fabric protection

tia13

Hi all,

I just traded in my 1995 Legacy wagon (I loved it) for a 2002 with 82,500 miles (yes, I know, a tad high for its years). I am debating on an extended 4 year/48,000 extended warranty which will tack on about $60 a month for life of loan (5 years). I do not drive a lot (1995 only had 110,000). My other option is a one year Subaru extended warranty on the Power Train for about $20/month (the 4 year is not a Subaru warranty). Any thoughts???? I have to decide by tomorrow.

The only problems I was beginning to encounter with my 1995 were due to age and rust (not body, but parts affecting suspension, exhaust, etc.) which were beginning to add up, thus the new car.

thanks!

xwesx

It might be worthwhile to get the extended Subaru powertrain warranty for a year, assuming the $20/month is only for the duration of that covered year, considering the possibility of head gasket issues. I would not opt for the non-Subaru warranty, as they tend to be more bark than bite, unless they are biting you in the rear. At $60/month, it sounds like a generous fleecing. $3600 (the amount you would pay over five years for the FOUR YEAR "warranty") is a fair chunk of maintenance change - an amount you are not likely to exceed during 60 months of low-mileage ownership including normal maintenance and occasional repairs. And, that amount you pay to the warranty would cover the non-maintenance portion only!

Even a head gasket replacement should not cost more than $1800 for the pair, and that is still half of your "budget!"

Good luck with the car!

tia13

thanks for the quick reply! Actually, the $20 is the life of the loan(!) as the total cost is about $1140 so I am even a bit hesitant about that. Considering that I had no engine or transmission trouble with my '95 and other costs were mainly wear and tear I do feel that the 4 year is not worth it. I definitely don't like paying for it PAST the year it covers! I guess if I'd had a lot of service issues I would not have bought another Subaru. A service tech commented that the 2002 is a newer line altogether than the 1995/97 and that the rust issues are not even as much of an issue.

Have you found/heard of head gaskets being a problem with these or was that just one of the more expensive problems and that is why you mentioned it?

thanks again!

ateixeira

Ask if your 2002 model had the coolant conditioner added and find out for sure if it's covered by Subaru's head gasket warranty that they extended.

That's the most common problem by far. If Subaru will already cover that for the next couple of years.

If so I'd pass on buying longer warranty protection at all (and I have a Subaru Gold warranty, FWIW).

tia13

I will call Service and find out. Can you direct me to online info for this head gasket/coolant info? I did a search and found some unofficial sites but couldn't find anything on Subaru or NHTSA site (might not have been looking in right place on latter)

thanks!

xwesx

Yes, the head gasket problem was somewhat hit-and-miss by 2002, as they apparently updated gasket material at some point during that model year to help alleviate the high frequency of the problem. I would say it is the most likely large-dollar repair you are likely to face during the next 100,000 miles.

$20 for 5 years? With one year of coverage? Wow... quite a deal, there! Pass. Or tell them you'll pay $5/month over the loan for it. Unless there is an existing problem, they will still likely make money off it! And, if there IS an existing problem, they should pay anyway. If they scoff, ask them, "Why? No confidence in your own product? I only put a few thousand miles per year on my cars!" :P

ateixeira

I think they may have put a sticker under the hood near the radiator instructing mechanics to use the conditioner from that point on. You may see it when you pop the hood, if not ask them about it.

I don't have the URL for the HG issue because it has not affected any of the 5 Subarus in my family.

tia13

yeah, I definitely need to follow up on this. I am so glad I found out about it here. I did finally find the TSB on NHTSA site cooling link but it does not give any specific info. I also looked up the recalls so I can ask about them as well. The good thing is that the car only had one previous owner and it was (mostly) serviced by the dealer I bought it from so the service history should be accessible. This is also the same dealer where I had my old Subaru serviced so I DO have a longstanding (9 years) relationship with them - should account for something!!

on the warranty - yeah, I agree. I bought a Subaru for their reliablity

thank you

mommymoose

So, we just purchased an 02 OB, and it has about 50k miles, if i remember correctly... we're scheduled to p/u wednesday, and we have to decide whether to take the extended warranty on it- it was 4 years/32 k miles, for $1500.... we originally thought, no.. but i see there are a few problem spots, and i am worried that we will regret not taking it....
what would you do???

ateixeira

Is it a Subaru warranty? Or an aftermarket one?

My concern is that at 50k miles, the bumper-to-bumper warranty already expired, so there might be a lot of exclusions, i.e. anything that may have developed between 36k and 50k miles.

With a lapse in coverage, it may not be worth it.

We do have a Subaru Gold warranty for our 2002 Legacy (though we've never used it).

mommymoose

i thiiink its aftermarket, despite being offerred by the guy at the subaru dealership.... he gave us a list of what it did cover, and couldn't give a list of what it didn't....

u think it did have an extended coverage that ends in a few months or something, so i dont think there'd be a lapse... does that change your suggestions??? m

ateixeira

couldn't give a list of what it didn't

Why? Because it was too long?

I dunno. Subaru has a CPO program. I would search for a different car, or get that one and pass on the warranty.