Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

c_hunter

re: the active AWD, it's actually a 90F/10R nominal split, not 80/20.

Sam -- I could not tell from the pictures, but was the exit to the venturi clear? it looked like the venturi might have been at least partially blocked by a wiring harness or something (which may explain the problem!).

CRaig

samiam_68

I have moved that wiring harness around a few times and made sure the venturi opening was clear, that did not seem to solve the problem. There are a lot of XT and XS owners that are experiencing climate control abnormalities, I doubt that so many Foresters have a misrouted wiring harness.

As a matter of fact, I have not heard a single person on these boards state that the climate control was working very well in Auto mode, especially for heating.

I would like to hear someone from Subaru comment on these forums regarding the climate control issue. There are some posts on subaruforester.com about a fix that is supposedly in the works at Subaru, but I have not seen a concrete story, or an ctual TSB on this as of yet.

Do you have an XT or an XS?

c_hunter

We have an 03 XS.

I was thinking that the harness might not have been misrouted, just in the wrong place. But if you tried moving it out of the way with no effect, then I would suspect either the venturi was not designed right (throat too large) or there is a loss/blockage further upstream that is preventing the venturi from flowing fully enough. Or maybe there is just not enough flow there to begin with.

I'd be interested to see if Subaru comes up with a TSB.

Craig

samiam_68

On your XS, does the CC keep a steady temp in AUTO mode in the winter? Does it overheat at first on really cold days?

c_hunter

Hard to say, it's my wife's car. I don't recall it getting too hot for my tastes (but if I was driving, the max I would set the temp to is 67-70). My wife tends to crank it to 75-80 and she would not complain if it got too hot! Plus, she almost always goes to manual override.

Craig

paisan

re: the active AWD, it's actually a 90F/10R nominal split, not 80/20.

In the 1st gen 4EAT trannys it was 90/10, such ones as the SVX, XT6, 1st gen Legacy. The 2nd gen and newer ones such as the Impreza, 2nd-4th gen Legacy, etc. that are non-VTD enabled are 80/20 AS PER THE ENGINEERS AT SOA. We had a long drawn out discussion of this and Patti checked with the engineers for us.

-mike

c_hunter

We should look for real documentation on this instead of going by word of mouth. I saw some Subaru dealer tech training materials posted on NASIOC not too long ago (pertaining to recent model years) and it said 4EAT with active AWD had a 90/10 nominal split that varied with acceleration, deceleration, and slippage (I also remember reading that the system is 50/50 fixed in D1 or R). I would trust that documentation unless we see something else, in print, that says otherwise.

Craig

rsholland

In the 1st gen 4EAT trannys it was 90/10, such ones as the SVX, XT6, 1st gen Legacy. The 2nd gen and newer ones such as the Impreza, 2nd-4th gen Legacy, etc. that are non-VTD enabled are 80/20 AS PER THE ENGINEERS AT SOA. We had a long drawn out discussion of this and Patti checked with the engineers for us.

When I was in Las Vegas I asked one of the guys giving the technical updates on the new Legacy and Outback that very question, regarding the non-VTD automatic's power split. I mentioned there had been some dispute here regarding that, and the guy could not answer the question. Not because he was uninformed, but because he implied that there apparently isn't any real agreement, even among Subie engineers on this issue. Maybe he's wrong, but that's the answer I got.

It's also interesting to note that in the '05 Legacy and Outback brochures Subaru is very vague about that. They mention 50/50 in the description of the manual models, and they mention 45/55 in the description of VTD automatics, but when it comes to describing the "Active AWD" automatics (new term this year for the non-VTD automatics with AWD) there is no mention of percentages.

Bob

kens

Bob,

That is very strange. Somebody somewhere has got to know. When they build the Active AWD transmission, there has to be some type of production test to make sure that it's working okay.

Ken

rsholland

I agree, but that's the answer I got. Also add in the fact that the brochures are being so vague on only this AWD system, only adds to the confusion—and/or confirmation of what this guy was saying...

Bob

c_hunter

They used to post the actual numbers, and in fact Subaru used to have a detailed description of how it worked on their website. But now when I look, they are being very vague. My guess is that 90/10 looks too much like FWD with a reactive AWD (like the CR-V) and Subaru is trying to avoid that association. In fact, sending even 10% to the rear is important -- it offsets driveline losses and avoids a jerky lash effect when power does get transferred aft. Having driven a CR-V and a couple 4EAT Subarus with active AWD, there is definitely a difference. Regardless, the 90/10 split is only when cruising under nominal conditions. Most of the rest of the time, the system is somewhere between 50/50 and 90/10.

If anybody knows a dealer, ask to see their training materials from 00-03, and it should give the specific numbers. I bet the new 05 training docs are also vague....

Craig

njswamplands

c_hunter

Well, we're all nerds you see, so we must know the precise numbers! It won't change our opinions of the car, but we have to know all the facts!

Craig

paisan

Asking patti, and she checked for us. That's what I was going by.

-mike

tidester

You can find her here: Subaru Crew: Official SOA Presence (aka Patti)

tidester, host

rsay777

The 03 X does have the gusset noise. It goes away when pressing on the drivers side glass just behind where the tweeter would be. Does anyone have information on the fix for this?

c_hunter

http://members.cox.net/craig.hunter/gusset/

Try adjusting the angle with the screw shown in my pics (with the door closed, look from the outside to verify that the glass is sealing against the gusset).

The glass angle, up/down stop limits, and side to side position can also be adjusted -- that could also be the culprit. I would look at the general fit of the glass to make sure it's OK first, before proceeding to the gusset adjustment.

Craig

bluesubie

Yes, Patti checked and came back with the 80/20 number on the 4EAT.

Bob's post makes a lot of sense regarding the engineers not in agreement. When I emailed SoA back in '97 about the VC, they told me that the split can vary from 90/10 to 10/90.

Craig - A Subaru Master Tech on nabisco posted that the 4EAT does not "lock" in any gear selection, and if it does it's because there's a problem. Another one of those Subaru urban legends I guess. :-)

edit: found the post - "The only time the TCU is going to "lock" the torque split 50/50 (other than a slipping wheel condition) is in Failsafe, typically for a Speed Sensor fault or an MPT Solonoid fault."

-Dennis

edunnett

rsay, see my post in problems and solutions and the follow up two posts later as well as c_hunters fix. the new style gusset replacement should be included in the 3yr 36K mile warranty in my opinion. i am going to the dealer this thursday for gusset replacement (fingers crossed) under warranty on my 04 F-XT.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX4@@.ef0d013/3342

p0926

To the person asking about how to do this... common misperceptions not withstanding, running with your spare on for the length of time it takes to get a flat fixed should have no detrimental effect on your AWD system.

-Frank P

gmginsfo

Just catching up and saw your post, Jazz. Extremely cool for you! Days like that come one in a million and the simplest of pleasures are often the best. Here's to more of them for all of us!

rsay777

Thanks Craig. It looks as though a replacement is the best way to go as opposed to trying to adjust the angle. Bob L.

hypov

I too agree that 90/10 will look FWD being reason for their vague description.

I'm also guessing that the Active AWD do not have a fixed split like the MT 50/50 or VTD 45/55 and stating the split as 90/10 would not do the Active AWD justice. The 90/10 is the maximum split, like you've mentioned, is only when cruising under normal conditions whereas the MT and VTD will stay at 50/50 and 45/55 respectively when cruising under normal conditions.
IIRC, the Active AWD will start off at 50/50 and then variate aft and forth according to conditions.

-Dave

ateixeira

I agree. If it were 100% FWD, you'd feel it engage, like you do with the CR-V and GM's VersaTrak.

-juice

c_hunter

Dave, yeah that's what I heard too -- starts off 50/50 in 1 and R and then varies from there.

Juice: funny thing is, you can still get the active AWD on 4eat models to make a loud "bang" in the rear end if you floor it in snow. Still better than the CR-V by miles, however.

Bob: I only replaced the gusset because the opening was too large. If you can fix the problem just by adjusting the angle (of the gusset and/or glass) then save yourself $45. In my case, it was obvious that no amount of adjusting would fix the problem. Seemed like the original rubber seal was molded incorrectly such that it could never have a tight fit. the replacement part was much better.

Craig

hypov

How do you adjust the gusset?

-Dave

c_hunter

Look in my pics -- there is a screw that allows you to adjust the angle of the gusset, similar to a valve clearance adjuster in concept. They use the same kind of setup to adjust the glass angle and position.

Craig

hypov

ateixeira

Craig: I think that's the rear LSD, though, isn't it? Because I think that can happen with MT models with the rear LSD. Course how would I know, I don't own one! ;-)

-juice

c_hunter

Could be related to the LSD, I always thought it was a fore/aft thing with the clutch pack. I've never had a non-LSD Soob in the snow to find out!

Craig

edunnett

You guys got me thinking. I'd always heard that the manual tranny had a 50:50 front:rear split for power to the axles, and that the automatic was 90:10 front:rear. I went to the source, and was shocked to find it 50:50 and (GET THIS!) 35:65 with some automatic AWD systems! You can argue with me ;-) but that's what Subaru has documented. They have different AWD systems I guess for AT though.
-elissa

From http://www.subaru-global.com/about/awd/2321.html on the Manual Tranny front-rear torque split:
This system for manual transmission vehicles combines a centre differential with bevel gears and a viscous coupling type limited slip differential (LSD). Normally, the centre differential distributes the torque at a ratio of 50:50 to the front and rear wheels for extremely stable driving and maximum traction. Where the balance of traction is lost when front or rear wheels slip, viscous LSD automatically redistributes torque to maximize grip, so full traction and driveability are always available.

From http://www.subaru-global.com/about/awd/2323.html on the Automatic Tranny front-rear torque split:
V-T-D AWD is an AWD system for automatic transmission vehicles that provides positive, sporty driving by making improvements in turning-in while maintaining the basic driving safety performance of Subaru AWD. The system uses complex planetary gear type centre differentials that distribute the basic torque at a ratio of 35 for the front wheels and 65 for the rear. Distributing more torque to the rear wheels reduces the tendency to understeer when accelerating while cornering to provide smoother, more confident handling. Torque distribution is also optimally controlled to suit road conditions. This system provides both sporty driving and stability under any road conditions by automatically equalizing the front and rear wheel torque distribution to a maximum ratio of 50:50.

In 2003 VTD AWD is used on Outback VDC, GT with Sport Shift automatic transmission and Impreza WRX with automatic transmission.... And I have seen descriptions of the VTD system as being as high as 95:5 all the way to this 35:65. Seems there's a lot of contention on what the split REALLY is. I think the Forester autos all use the continuously variable (ie: "vague") distribution described below:

Much more vague on Automatic http://www.subaru-global.com/about/awd/2322.html
Active Torque Split AWD is a system that makes the most of stable driving performance of automatic transmission vehicles under any road conditions. Vehicle conditions such as variations in front and rear tyre grip, vehicle speed, and so on, are constantly monitored by sensors. Based on torque distribution readouts and directly coupled to front and rear tyres, it dramatically stabilises traction performance. Electronic Control MP-T (MultiPlate Transfer) is a device that increases AWD stability and driving pleasure by controlling the distribution of torque to the front and rear wheels in real time, responding directly to driving conditions. Electronic Control MP-T (MultiPlate Transfer) is a device that increases AWD stability and driving pleasure by controlling the distribution of torque to the front and rear wheels in real time, responding directly to driving conditions.
 

kens

Craig,

How difficult was it to remove the side mirror and take apart the door?

Ken

paisan

On the 4EATs that have the "manual" button and "power" light it's 90/10 on the 4EATs that don't have the manual/power items is 80/20 intial but as you drive it will vary.

-mike

c_hunter

It was very simple to do on my wife's 03 Forester. I have also taken the door panels off my Outback and WRX, and they were simple except for the trim ring aroung the lever -- you practically have to break it to get it off (luckily replacement pieces are cheap and in stock at most dealers....).

Side mirror also came off easily.

Craig

russski

Scott,
Do you still have the "problem" with Coolant Levels as you stated in your earlier post #4100. Your comments in that post is an exact reflection of my situation. Even my trip to a dealer was unfruitful.

Any comment from you or board members would be greatly appreciated.

Vitaly
Forester X my03 2.5L
20000Km

grahampeters

G'day

Before you get too excited, get the radiator cap and radiator pressure tested. Most garages have thee tool which is a simple pum with a pressure meter attached. It checks the blow off pressure of the cap is correct and then checks that the system is not bleeding pressure.

Cheers

Graham

bluesubie

Thanks Elissa.
But I believe the big mystery is what the variables of these systems are. :-) (e.g. VC = standard 50/50 with a maximum split of up to ___ ).

You won't find that in any Subaru publication that I'm aware of.

-Dennis

ateixeira

Elissa: that link is to Subaru Global, indeed the VDC overseas gets a different torque split than the US models. We get 45/55, JDM models get even more of a rear bias.

Vitaly: you can "burp" the system to purge any air pockets. Don't laugh, I'm serious.

On my '98, the radiator cap is on the right side, but the bleeder valve to burp the system is on the left. It's a black plug that looks like a big phillips screw.

Don't do it while it's real hot, start with a cold engine and open it slowly, wearing appropriate protection. You should see little air bubbles coming out.

I just flushed my radiator and went through two "burp" cycles to get all the air out. The 3rd time there were no bubbles at all.

You may want to ask your dealer if you already have the coolant conditioner as well.

Good luck.

-juice

spart

I have an 04 Forester X A/T w/ approx. 4k miles on it. At about 2500 miles I noticed moderate pinging coming from the engine when the engine was holding steady at about 2500 RPMs (say, for example, climbing a hill with moderate acceleration). I was using Mobil 87 octane, so I tried a tank of Shell 87 octane. Still pinging. I took it to my dealer and a senior tech went on a test drive w/ me driving w/ a computer plugged into the car. He said it reflected some timing issues (I can't be more specific), but he wanted to have the car filled up w/ 93 octane to see whether that affected the pinging. Apparently it did, because when I took it back we were unable to reproduce the pinging. He wants to me run 87 through it again and bring it back if the pinging comes back to attempt to gather some readings, and forward them to SOA this time. I do plan on doing this.

I've reviewed the message boards and see that folks were having issues similar to this in the 02s. I myself noticed the exact same pinging in the 02 Impreza loaner car the dealer gave me. Any thoughts on this issue. I bought the car, in part, because it ran on 87 octane and, in any case, I suspect running 93 for years would lead to issues in itself (i.e., carbon deposits). Thanks.

ateixeira

An occasional ping is normal, the knock sensor is supposed to pick up on it and dial back the timing just slightly, to get the best balance of power without pre-ignition damage.

If you've ever adjusted timing manually, it's pretty interesting to try to find that edge.

So if you have a pattern of pinging that doesn't go away with regular fuel, first thing I'd suspect is the knock sensor itself.

-juice

kens

We've seen similar phenomenon with previous Foresters and Imprezas. Even though the engine is designed for regular octane, *some* engines for some reason or another run better with higher octane fuel.

In the pre-WRX days, there was lots of discussion around this topic in the old i-club forums.

Colin probably could comment on this one.

Ken

rangerron7

What you describe is exactly what was ocurring with our '02 Forester. After 3 trips back to the dealer, they replaced the front O2 sensor and the pinging has not returned.
Ron

joseph50

A couple months ago I had my 2001S (41K miles) into the dealers for the coolant sealing recall.
They made a point that I hadn't been in their shop for the 30K maintanance routine which was now "way over due." (I had it done by the book by my own mechanic.) They also said my injectors needed cleaned out to the tune of $278. I let them do it, but that is not "in the book" that I could see. Car still runs fine, even a bit better, so I am not bent out of shape, just curious.
Has anyone else had this diagnosis and job done at that price?
Thanks.

1942131

Help!!! I am tired of my cold start piston slap, which I am told is a normal situation. I would buy another forester, but not if I experience the same thing again. I have a 99 forester with a 2.5 that began this piston slap at 30,000 miles. I now have 77,000 miles on it, and although it has not affected performance, I can no longer stand the deisel-like noise. If I buy a 2004 or a 2005, can I expect a solution Thank you, walleye

russski

Thanks Graham and Juice for reply.

Graham,
Tree hours after I brought my car to a dealer, I picked it up with invoice, saying Radiator Compression test carried out, all clamps tighten up. No fault found.
Next Tuesday I have booked another appointment with them. This time they want my car for three days. I have requested they do cylinder compression test this time.

Juice I have bled "burped" the system few month ago - did not work.

It is very small loss of coolant 20-30ml every 1000km and I am afraid the tests will not show any results.

At least if something will ever happen - it is well documented.

BTW in Australia there is no recalls related to external head gasket leaks. When I've asked them about additive - they've never heard of this recall campaign, which I don't believe anyway. (Additive is not available here)

Thanks again....Vitaly

stever

'05 pricing is up on the site. Of course, if you are getting off the fence, you knew that.

Here's the link for the curious.

Steve, Host

cmuniz

Am I missing something or isn't the FXT required to run on premium 93 octane gas? If you are using 87 octane it's not surprising that it is pinging.

spart

I have a non-turbo Forester X. The manual specifies 87 octane.

mckeown

Interesting you mention this, My 2002 has had this since it was 6 month old (approx 17K). Had it back to dealer 3 times AND a region rep listened. Same answer, NORMAL, will cause no problems. Live with it.
Well I finally got FED UP ! 2 weeks ago (This being by 7th Subaru), I went shopping for another car. Finally settled on an 04 XS Prem 5 speed. Got a GREAT PRICE........UNTIL......the tradein Manager drove my 02......He wanted to DEDUCT $500 for the PISTON SLAP.......
I asked him to bring up an internet browser right there in his dealership, and point to the 3 times, on MYSUBARU, I returned for this issue (02 was from a different dealership). After walking out of the dealer absolutley disgusted that night, the manager called me the next day to offer me the original deal.
Well I now own an '04 and the manager stated that they will help me fight for any future slap issues I have as they now have a 'slapper' to try to sell or wholesale. Maybe since it was reported 1st at 17k, they can get it repaired under warrenty.
Sorry for the long post....thanks for listening.....the 04 is Much Quieter than the 02.

bluesubie

What dealer was that? Just curious.
Congrats on the new car!

-Dennis