Radar/Lidar detectors

pcleveland2

Unless you can blind it!

pat_pending

According to several articles, in particular from a 1997 Car and Driver article, laser is NOT a single dot, as many police officers and others believe. Depending on the brand of laser gun, it is in fact three beams, and they do have significant spread at the ridiculous distances that the police believe they can use them, particularly when they use them free hand.

From the C&D article:

(quote) In 1995, three German engineers at the university in Erlangen tested the LTI 20-20 and two European laser guns. They found that the LTI had three beams side by side instead of a single beam, which raises doubts about what spot on the car is actually being tracked. Moreover, the beam strike did not correspond to the targeted area, raising the possibility of hitting other vehicles than the targeted one. In this way, the real advantage of the laser devices over radar is lost, namely, pinpointing a vehicle in moving traffic, their report concluded.

(quote) Comparing laser with radar is revealing in another way. Paul Greenberg, a NASA laser scientist, points out that a radar unit sitting atop a dashboard can measure speeds all by itself, with no input from a human operator. But a [laser] gun cannot operate by itself; it must be aimed by someone, and it must track a moving target for the one-third of a second it takes to produce a reading. In effect, it is a hand tool, and its output can never be independent of its operator.

(quote) The usual description of the laser beam: four feet in diameter at 1000 feet, overstates its precision in actual use, too. Henry Roberts, a Bell labs scientist, pointed out the (quote) slice of bologna (unquote) problem. Laser gunners do not stand in the road, they stand alongside it, and therefore see a slight side view of traffic. What happens when the invisible beam sweeps down the side of a string of vehicles? Imagine bologna cut at a small angle. With a beam angle of two degrees to traffic, he calculates the active end of the beam to be an ellipse about 115 feet long. From what does it produce its reading?

(quote) Laser accuracy and reliability can never be separated from the question: What did it hit?

The article can be read at:

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/1997/May/199705_feature_laser.xml

-PP

pat84

The SIGHT is a dot type sight. I was caught by a laser. The police officer let me use it. Without a problem, I put the dot on a car and pulled the trigger. It was reading 900 foot distances and giving me the speed. I had no doubt that it was the car I was pointing at. While I have no idea how many beams it had, I was thoroughly convinced that it can pick out a single car and that it does not take any real training, although I had used a radar gun previously. How are you going to prove it wasn't you who got hit with the laser ? Give them your bologna story ? I would want to be there for that.

francois

Been playing around with my new 8500 Passport for about 3 weeks and no complaints. Picked up a laser as the state police targeted me. I had all ready slowed down based on C.B. reports. I was about 1000 feet away, all alone, and got a full alert. Just as advertised. I also was alerted to a K.A. radar, by my estimate, almost a full mile before I spotted the officer. I was beginning to think it had falsed. I like all the extra features the 8500 offers, and in AUTO mode, very few false alarms. I bought the newest Passport over the V1 based on price and previous experience with the original Passport a long time ago. 300 dollars is a stretch as it is, 400 to me, I can't justify. I also read 2 very favorable reviews. Here are the U.R.L.s

http://www.radartest.com/
http://www.speedzones.com/

The radartest.com site is by Craig Peterson, who I believe has been accused of bias against the V1 in other tests he has been involved in. Based on what I've read, I can't argue much. He tends to nitpick the heck out of the V1. It also looks like he may have tested an older V1 based on some of his comments. The Bell 980 did very well.

The Speedzones test seems to be more fair and unbiased. I suggest anyone interested in purchasing a radar detector in the near future look at this site and make a decision. The top 3 are Passport 8500, V1, Bel 980. Not in any order.

As you may have noted I use a C.B. radio in my car when traveling. They seem to be making somewhat of a small comeback. Many times I was warned of a speedtrap before ever getting into danger. They can be a hassle sometimes, particularly with bad mouthed truckers. If you speed however, I believe it's just some added protection. Anyone else use a C.B.?

HAPPY HOLIDAYS !!

pat_pending

Pat84-

1) Not MY bologna story. Part of the Car and Driver article. But I understand your point... I suspect the judge would not let you get past the word (quote) bologna (unquote) before he cut you off.

2) I'm not saying laser CAN NOT tell you the speed of a car. I am saying that it is limited by the way it is used. That you believe you hit the car with it does not make it true. I can put a laser sight on my shotgun, but that does not make the shot all land in that one spot.

-PP

scotian

Is he the idiot that calls the V1's arrows "confusing," or was that someone else?

pcleveland2

Its not a matter of of telling the judge its "bologna", it's a matter of finding a lawyer willing to tell the judge its "bologna". When your on legal turf, you gotta do it with a lawyer.

pat_pending

Okay, to be technical, it is a matter of
having your lawyer put an expert witness on the stand who will tell the judge about the bologna!

But I think Pat84 was merely suggesting a humorous scene, and I agree that it would likely go nowhere.

this_is_nascar

First off, I'll let you know that I've been a die-hard Valentine user for several years now. To date, I've never seen a better detector.

Recently, while searching for car reviews, I stumbled across some articles about the Passport 8500. I've read many comparision reviews that put the 8500 head-to-head with the V1. Most of those reviews are coming back rating the 8500 BETTER than the V1.

So, my question is, does anyone have the 8500 and can comment on its performance? Of those that have the 8500 have you ever used the V1?

francois

This a response for
This is Nascar

The reviews that I have read indicate that the 8500 is about equal to the V1. I have owned an 8500 for close to a month now and I am pleased with the performance. My last radar detector was the original Passport, so its been awhile. I would not purchase one of the cheaper radar detectors because they flat out do not work for the most part. I resorted to using a C.B. radio for when I was with out a radar detector, and it has worked well for me.

I have always been an Escort/Passport fan, but I admit their products could not compete with the V1 until the 8500 came out.

So why don't I have a V1? Price, price, and price. If the V1 was selling 299.99 I would of had one by now. We all have a perception of what is to expensive to spend for an item, and 400 bucks was just over the limit in my book. I am not criticizing those who did, this is just what my budget(?) will allow. I am sure some people think I am crazy to spend 300 bucks for an 8500.
So be it.

So which one to get? You all ready have the V1, keep it and forget about the 8500. The difference in performance is negligible.
My opinions only.

P.S.
The Bel 980 is also getting alot of good press.

this_is_nascar

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to order the 8500 for comparision testing to my V1. I'll post my findings here.

pat84

I concur that you need a lawyer in court.
Unless the cop loses his ticket book. It actually happened to me once. The judge dismissed the case. There are challenges that can be raised about laser speed detection I would imagine. The dot sight on the laser gun was like those sold for sporting equipment or so it seemed to me. I have no doubt I was getting the car I aimed at. It really gave me an appreciation of how vulnerable to laser guns we all are.

ciscokid70

I do a lot of high speed highway driving. Not the joy riding that people do in the city. REAL HIGHWAY DRIVING 110mph for 8 hours straight. I get from dallas, tx to el paso, tx in less than 7 hours 646miles (that includes stopping for food, gas and sodas) fastest was 5hours 42 min of driving time.

I tell you what city cops are nothing...those sherrifs in small towns accros the us ussually have better equipment than the state troppers. Speeders mean $$$ to small towns so they consider it a business and try to be as profitable as possible.

Needless to say I started at the bottom of the radar detector price range long ago and moved up ticket by ticket unitl I finally bit the bullet and bought the valentine. It is so much better than any other detector.

I have only been pinged ONE time in 4 years since I got my valentine!!

All my friends that are serious about driving have one and LOVE IT! I have never met anyone who actually owned one that did not love it. They are worth every freaken penny!!!

ccotenj

to go 110 for 8 seconds, let alone 8 hours...

-Chris

div2

I drove back from O'fest 1984 through PA at about 105 in my 1973 Bavaria. Back then I had an original CM Escort. Not bad for an 11 year old car with 90K on the clock. My wife never even looked up from her book once. Oh, to be (relatively)young and invulnerable again...

philly7

I picked up my 2001 Black on Black Cadillac Deville DTS two weeks ago. I had been using a Whistler 1575 in my last Deville but I wanted to upgrade. After a lot of surfing it came down to the Passport 8500, the Top of the line BEL and the V1. I read everything I could get my hands on and paid close attention to everything contributed to this forum. Yesterday, a friend (Venom Viper owner) was going out of town for 2 weeks and lent me his V1 to test it out.

Mounting this BIG box effectively is a problem due to various obstructions including the diversity antenna system embedded in the windshield. I decided to experiment using several different mounting points. I noticed that in "A" mode (auto-logic)there were a lot of -band false alarms, but they seemed to diminish a bit when I ran it in "L" mode (Logic?).

Anyway, what made me a believer, was the drive home from my Thursday night poker game. I was at a light facing an up hill arterial just before it passes under an interstate. This is a very congested area packed with strip malls, fast food joints and supermarkets. It is famous for false alarms. When the light turned green I gave the DTS a spur since I had the pole position. As soon as I got 10 feet or so the V1 light up like a Christmas tree. It showed 3 bogey's on the readout but the strange thing was that the strongest signal was a "K" hit coming from behind me! By the time the car hit 40 (Speed limit 35) I realized that there was an unmarked county mount right behind me.

Had it not been for the V1 I would have kept accelerating right past the 50 mark and would have been cold busted. That sold me. The peripheral and rear radar coverage alone sets this detector apart from any other! I'm placing my order today! Thanks to all the folks who have taken the time to share their experiences on this conference.

this_is_nascar

For those of you that have the V1, do you find yourself using the All-Bogies mode or the Advanced Logic mode more often? Is there any loss of sensitivity in the "AL" mode?

ciscokid70

First of all I do not recommend speeding above 100mph unless your car is in good shape especially Tires, Brakes and suspension.

Technically you can not increase the sensitivity of the V1 but... you can modify the programing

here is a link:
http://www.valentine1.com/lab/MikesLabRpt3.asp

I modified 5: to more responsive and on the open road I run it in A (which is all bogy mode)

A = all bogy mode means that anything resembling a radar signal will be noted (which can get very noisy in the city)

I and little I mode are best for the city.

I WILL ASK ALL VALENTINE OWNERS FOR A FAVOR: Join me in calling Valentine and complaining about the lights! Think about this would it be nice to have a blue led for laser, orange for a, yellow for I and red for X.

when I drive at night I completely turn off the volume so I do not wake up my wife and kids and staring at that all RED display is irritating. But worst of all difficult to discern which signal I just read.

UNITE ALL VALENTINE 1 OWNERS!!

scotian

I wonder if Valentine One, BEL, etc., ever read this board...

ccotenj

well, i'm gonna make sure i'm equipped to make the o'fest trip next year to new hampshire (permission has been granted from mrs. ccotenj to make the trip!)... not sure what enforcement is like now, but 20 years or so when i lived up there, the state police used to enforce the speed limits quite closely...

-Chris

philly7

You are absolutly right. It seems like a no brainer to distinguish the threats by color. I wonder hard it would be to have the indicators changed myself. I'm sure that it would present a warranty issue, but it seems like a tempting Idea.

scotian

Make them to the remote display only; leave the main unit alone.

Having examined the insides of one, I noticed that they use surface mount LEDs. Good luck!

All you would really be able to do is to replace the LEDs for each band indicators with different colors (and it would be a miracle if anyone were able to find these things, let alone install them). The arrow will be one color, unless you plan on programming your own chip that takes the V1 signals and lights up stuff according to your own design.

this_is_nascar

How about a translucent colored-paint or dye to dab on each LED.

philly7

I don't care about the directional indicators as they have a unique shape.

I thought about the translucent dye myself. I think if the LED's were clear or even light in color it might work.

I will have some of the electrical wizards at work take a look at modifying the concealed display unit. I'll report my results here.

scotian

Although it was very cost-effective for them to create the concealed display directly from the built-in one, it would be nice if they offered a few more shapes/configurations, or at least one with wires hanging off so we could attach LEDs as we see fit.

wlm26

I was recently pulled over by an officer here in Colorado. I was heading north on a four lane street and he was "driving" south. Now get this, not only was there a huge median in the middle of the street with short trees, he was coming out out of a "very" sharp turn while I was going into this same turn on the opposite side of the rode!!!! When we passed each other I saw in my rearview that he whipped around the "next" median in the road and drove up behind me. He waited until I made a left-hand turn at the next light and pulled me over. He said he caught me doing 42 in a 25. Now I don't know, I was positive that neither radar or laser detectors could "see around corners," that they needed an unobstructed view of the vehicle, i.e. the trees in the median, and (I could definitely be wrong about this) can they actually be driving and have the rader/ laser gun send back a correct reading???? Anyone that can offer some help in this would be greatly appreciated!!!

this_is_nascar

wlm26: what is radar or laser that he got you with? If radar, what band of radar was he/she using?

scotian

is never used while moving, as far as I know. If so, at the minimum there would have to be a second cop in the car to pinpoint aim the laser. If the officer says he used laser, and there was no other cop in the car with him, you have nothing to worry about.

However, chances are he used radar which can be used while moving, but I think you have a good argument with those trees, if they do obstruct the line between you and the cop, and the tight corner. Did he say exactly where he was, how fast he was moving, what direction he was pointing, and if he was turning when he tagged you? From the image in my mind from your description, I don't see how he could claim to know how fast you were going down to the single mph. Drive there again and take some pictures as evidence if you want to fight it.

wlm26

No, nascar, he didn't say what type of laser, or whether it was actually laser that he used to tag me with, so I'm at a loss there.
Scotian, no, there wasn't another cop in the car. The gun was mounted on his dash from what I could see, and I don't see how he could be reading the gun, making the sharp turn, have the laser or radar see "through" the trees and around the corner all at the same time.

wlm26

Oh, and Scotian, I did go take pictures of the scene, and there's no way he could have tagged me!!

scotian

If you're still considering changing the V1's lights, this may be of use:

Gilway Technical Lamp
800 West Cummings Park
Woburn, MA 01801
781/935-4442
fax: 781/938-5867

"A wide variety of surface mount LEDs supplied on tape & reel are also offered."

pat_pending

Wlm26: Moving radar, which is probably what he used, *could* be affected by the trees, but...

As far as worrying about the small amount of time that the officer had to tag you, rest assured that even the most rudimentary moving radars require no hands or attention to use. They are constantly transmitting, the beam *can* bounce around corners, and it is not a hard thing to have the speed of the oncoming car just before or right as it pops into view.

You did not say that you were not speeding, so I assume you believe that you were. Furthermore, the nearly universal reaction upon seeing a cop is to lift the foot off the gas, followed by checking the speed. Therefore, you were likely going faster than the speed you saw by the time you looked down.

(What worries me far more is the fact that he was using moving radar on a 4-lane highway, and has virtually no way of knowing which oncoming car he has tagged. They can guess, but it is an easy area to make mistakes.)

Nevertheless, he is certified in radar, and you presumably are not, so you can bet that the judge will only listen to those who are certified, i.e., the cop. Virtually every jurisdiction has taken Judicial Notice on radar years ago, so the legal presumption is that it is accurate when used by a cop certified in its use.

Get a Valentine, and next time you will know about him before he will know about you.

tsquire1

I have a '99 Miata (supercharged) and a fairly clean driving record. I want to equip the car with a top of the line detector.

The Valentine seems to be the best there is, and I'd love to have the directional finder it comes with. The high cost is not that big a deal to me, but I am concerned by its large size and weight. Plus, I'd like to have a concealed unit, so am considering the BEL 915R.

A couple of questions:

1) Do concealed (remote) units perform considerably poorer than windshield-mounted units? I would think that they would not be as sensitive, given the fact that the receptor is mounted closer to the ground.

2) While the Valentine seems to be the hands-down winner, does it beat units like the BEL 980 and BEL 915R by an inch, a yard, or a mile. In other words, is the race close or is the Valentine in a race by itself?

Your comments appreciated.

mike734

Buy them both, try them out on some known speed traps and send one back.

philly7

I had the V1 hard-wired into my 01 DTS on Saturday. I finally chose to mount it 2 inches to the left of the rear-view mirror directly below the tint band. It seems to have a good view of the rear and is not obstructed by the diversity antenna system. My installer didn't have the time to install the concealed display unit and I am not sure I really need it. The unit is virtually invisible from the front and only a really low vehicle is able to see the display through the rear.

I made sure that the installer left plenty of slack in the wire so I can test different locations. He agreed that the location I have it in now is within acceptable operating range.

Scotian: Thanks for the heads-up on the lighting company. It is getting easier with practice to distinguish between the X & K bands.

So far so good.

PS - I also had them install PIAA Platinum Series Bright White head lamp bulbs. I know that is another conference, but I thought I'd mention it here for those who are interested. As soon as I find the "HID/xenon" conference, I'll post my impressions there.

vadp

I would like to get any input on how big of effect (if any) the modern metallic window tint has on the radar abilities to pick up a signal.
Thanks.

blane

vadp:

Here's what the Valentine One site says about your question:

http://www.valentine1.com/lab/Previously6.asp

this_is_nascar

Well, it's been a bit less than 2-weeks, but I've learned enough to make my decision. The only thing that I can't comment on is laser, since I
have not encountered it. Don't forget, I'm in NJ, so X and K bands are still the dominant radar.

I've been using both units, full time, since they arrived. My daily commute consists of mostly highway travel starting in New Jersey, through PA, ending in Delaware for a total of ~28-miles each way, each day.

I'll list my findings below, but my decision was made based on factors other than range or sensitivity. For the most part, the range on each
unit is comparable. On different occasions, one would beat out the other by a second or two, but that's about it. On 2-separate occasions, the 8500 reported a KA alert, while the V1 stayed silent. I never did find out what that was. I was unable to determine whether the 8500 was
falsing or if the V1 was just flat-out not picking up a real radar signal.

Being a V1 user for 3-years, I found it very "uncomfortable" not having the bogey counter and directional arrows. Yes, I know, the 8500 kind-of counts bogeys, but I found it too difficult to evaluate the read-out at
85-90 MPH. With the V1, I just glanced over and knew in a second what I was faced with. I have to say, that the 8500 (without a shadow of a
doubt) does not false as often as the V1. Both units were used in their respective "highway", "city", "auto", "advance-logic" and "all-bogeys" mode. Range for each stayed pretty consistent, in either mode, but the
"auto-mode for the 8500" and the "advanced-logic mode for the V1" definitely quieted both units down, not really effecting the range.

So, as I said in the beginning, I think everyone will have to use other things (as opposed to sensitivity) to make a selection. I am quite
happy with the features of the V1. I don't find myself needing what is offered on the 8500. My choice is the V1, because of the bi-directional
arrows and bogey-counter. Please folks, don't debate me on the usefulness of the directional arrows. I've read what everyone has to
say about them. For me, they work and are accurate and I miss not having them with the 8500. Besides that, I like the "look" of the V1.
I never understood why folks criticized the look of the V1. Anyway, to each their own.

So, tomorrow, the 8500 is going back. If price was an object to me and I've never used the V1, I would probably have better feelings about the
8500. If you're looking to purchase a radar detector and have the V1 and 8500 in mind, I'd suggest that you get each, try them out, then
return the one you don't like as much. In my case, the V1 stays. If all you're interested in the detector with the least amount of falses,
get the 8500. If you're interested in 360 degree protection and the ability to "know your surroundings" as it relates to where the radar is
at, get the V1.

scotian

http://www.epinions.com/elec-review-65AA-335A7ED9-3A09B68E-prod6

Although I dearly love my V1, especially its styling (I don't like the styling of the 8500 at all), it's nice to know that Valentine One finally has some serious competition! Capitalism creates innovation, and innovation creates better mousetraps.

this_is_nascar

Thanks for the information. I'm familiar with ALL the reviews available. That's why I purposely purchased both units and did a head-to-head comparision on my own, in my area.

this_is_nascar

Looks like Mike has updated the web-page.

http://www.valentine1.com/lab/detectortests.asp

scotian

Well excuuuuuuse me! :-)

philly7

I am happy to hear that the Passport 8500 failed to win over a happy V1 customer. I recently installed my first V1 after being a Whistler customer in recent years. I am very satisfied with the product. I was concerned about mounting, but with the installer's help I found a perfect spot. I don't even need the Concealed display unit as the main unit is in a fairly discreet location.

Thanks to all those who shared their experiences here making my choice a simple one.

scotian

No offense taken (notice the smiley)!

tsquire1

Thanks, everybody, for your comments. I've decided to purchase the Valentine for my Miata. I haven't run in to anyone yet who didn't love their Valentine, so I'll go for it.

I noticed something funny on Ebay. Valentines less than a year old are selling (used) for only about 10% under retail. Unbelievable how many people are looking for these things. One auction had been viewed over 1000 times.

Also, if you're into BEL detectors, a good place to buy them is netmarket.com (if you're a member). $219 for the 980, $279 for the 915 R (permanently mounted remote version). Or, you can buy used ones on Ebay for the same amount. :-)

QUESTION: Does anyone have a link to the Road and Track test of the Valentine, Passport, etc. that ranked the Valentine at something like 97 out of a possible 100 points, with the second place finisher in the 50's?

philly7

South bound I-5 between Seattle and Portland. 5 miles north of Kelso WA, I am alone between Packs.
All of a sudden my V1 blurts out a loud Laser warning. I hit the breaks within 2-3 seconds. As I scan the horizon I see a State Trooper begin to move off the overpass. I knew I was toast!! I didn't even wait for him to get on the freeway, I just pulled over and resigned to my fate. I was just greatful that he didn't get me 4 or 5 miles earlier when I was traveling in excess of 100mph. He was a nice guy as troopers go. Clocked me at 83 but knocked it down to 80 in a 70, a $62 fine. He did comment that I did not have a front license plate displayed. I gave him the line about waiting for the front mount to arrive at the dealer.

This proves that once you are hit by laser you are pretty much toast!

mike734

N on 405 in Bellevue WA around midnight traveling around 80 mph (the only time of day you can speed) My laser warning sounded just a slight short warning. It startled me and I let off the gas. Just then I received a full laser warning. As I got closer to an overpass I saw three cops sitting in the median and two down the road with victims. I can only guess that a stray reflection was picked up by my V1 when they checked another car. So it seems a laser detector can save you from a ticket. This thing has more than paid for itself. Long live the V1!!!

molloni

I'll start by reminding everyone that I did purchase the Bel980, which I really like. But I do have a question that crossed my mind recently about the V1 that I hope someone might be willing to answer for me. I also don't recall reading about this on the V1 site when I was doing my research. Most detectors work on detecting the reflections of the radar waves off of objects ahead of you to detect a source behind you. The V1 has an antenna facing the front and the rear, and it keeps track of contacts. How can it differentiate and count a single source from the rear while still getting reflections from the front? In other words, if the trooper is tracking you from behind, does the V1 give you just one contact from the rear or 2 contacts, one from the rear and one from the front (from the reflections)? I'm assuming it is "smart" enough to know that the signal is the same.
Again, I won't doubt the superiority of the V1, but since I don't drive as fast as some of you, the cost effectiveness of the 980 suited my needs, and it is a darn good detector.
Philly7 - I feel your pain...

artmbgolf

I was under the impression that the V1 would pick up Laser signals, directed at other cars, before you got close enough for them to get you???

Phill7, Did you think V1 should have warned you sooner, like Mike734?

philly7

Perhaps under different circumstances I could have (would have) gotten earlier warning. But, everything went his way. It was a nice clear day, I was alone in between two packs, I was coming down a gentle grade with a sweeping bend to the left and he was up on an overpass. I don't think it a warning would have helped me unless I got it at least 5 seconds sooner than I did. The summons said that he got his reading at 1148 feet. By the time I got the warning, processed the information and hit the breaks I was less than 500 feet from the overpass and I was doing 74.
Again, I am greatful he got me when he did. A few miles sooner and I'd have needed a lawyer!

BTW - Mike734, I live in Redmond and travel that stretch of 405 every day. I have seen that trap before, but I have never received a laser warning there. I think Laser is New to WA state.
Oh well, now I know; thanks for the warning.