Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • mmspealmmspeal Member Posts: 122
    That is your opinion and that is fine - everyone is entitled to their opinion. But then ... why the hell are you in a mini SUV message board???

    You obviously know what you want and it is not a mini SUV. We know what we are interested in and it happens to be a mini SUV.

    One of these things just doesn't belong ... hmmm, wonder what that is. Why don't you go find a "real truck" message board to chat in and then you "looking at cars" won't be a problem for any of us !?!?!?!?!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So your SF is a babe magnet, if women keep coming up to you to ask about it. That's not a bad thing.

    Steve: diapers? You blew my cover, man!

    kayaker: yes, I've used them, but they were slow. I got slightly better prices and quicker service by e-mailed parts@libertysubaru.com.

    Let's keep the tone friendly, folks. It makes for a far more interesting read.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I didn't mean Image as in visually, I mean Image as in all the outdoorsy driving through the wilds of wherever etc. Also the "I would never be caught in a grocery getter" is excatly what I mean. Mini-van owners are stereotyped something awful, so much so that the auto industry had to come up with mini-utes so that people would buy em. It's funny though. :)

    -mike
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    Why do you think the Acura MDX and Honda Pilot exist? To serve the segment of the population that "wouldn't be caught dead" in a mini-van. So you basically have a re-skinned Odyssey - right down to the magic third row seat - with a tacked on "AWD" system like that in the CRV! A co-worker of mine wants an MDX badly - he's married w/ no kids. He gave me a really funny look when I asked him why he wanted a minivan.

    Back on topic, the Santa Fe does a great job at grabbin' groceries - including diapers ;-) I second Juice on the call for civility here - I kinda like reading about some of the real differences between vehicles, and not just name calling. On that note, does anyone here own a CVT Vue? Are they out yet, or still having problems? I'd like to hear from anyone who bought / drove one, since it's a new feature for the class.

    -Jason
  • gsogymratgsogymrat Member Posts: 97
    I've had my Santa Fe 6 months and I'm still happy with it. I got the FWD and have no problem with power or accerlation. I've always liked the styling, but then I have an affinty for the unusual. The major selling points for me were the sedan-like ride, that it was quiet and that it had leather and all the option for under $22K.

    Unfortunately I had to take in into the shop twice because of the battery dying. It turned out that my aftermarket Blaupunkt in-dash CD changer (which I had professionally installed) had an exposed connection which was shorting out. So I can't blame Hyundai for that. The service was good and they replaced the battery for free.

    My second choice was the Liberty but I've had problems with Jeeps. I was leasing a Cherokee before I got the Santa Fe and at 37K miles (just out of warranty) the engine developed a problem. I took it to a garage and the mechanic recommended I stop driving it and turn it in before it stopped running. I still had some mileage left but decided to turn it in early and pay the balance. They never asked if it ran okay and I didn't offer the information. It's been 6 months with no word from them so I guess I got away with it.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Who says a small SUV can't be used to go camping, fishing or whatever? Most places people go camping are accessible by car so a small SUV will be perfect, lots of room for stuff. You get far to hung up on your terminology, mountain climbing capability and what and isn't a "real" SUV. Get past it already.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I don't doubt the Santa Fe is a decent performer, I just can't get past the looks. Hopefully Hyundia will fix it soon.
  • txsantafetxsantafe Member Posts: 25
    Hey guys,

    Some of y'all keep forgetting that Santa Fe was designed in California not Korea. IMO the curviness of the Santa Fe design gives it, a more aerodynamic design.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I would not be caught dead in a mini-van. This was the reason I went for a mini-ute. I can tow up to 3,500lbs, and have towed 2 jet skiis with my Escape with no problems.. The fact is the majority of people want a nice, stable ride and the car based mini-utes do this for you. They are also able to handle any access road/gravel road or logging road or get into any camp ground.
    I crack up at Jeep because they push the Liberty as this tuff, offroad vehicle, yet stats show over 90% of people do not offroad.. I believe Toytoa/Honda/Ford/Hyundia made the right choice by going with a car based mini-suv. I believe the "image" thing comes from those who drive the Liberties and Xterra's to have the macho, grunt I can offroad sterotype, yet they drive them to and from work everyday.. go figure..
  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Escape is a nice truck. It was in our top 3.

    The Santa Fe didn't even get a test becuase my wife hated the looks. I'm not crazy about them either regardless of where it was designed.
  • bumpy47bumpy47 Member Posts: 1
    Howdy, all. 'Scuse me for just jumping in without knowing the thread well :)

    I am just looking at vehicles at this point, but am really thinking of a Liberty. Not 'cause it would look cool to others, but that it rides high up, (over my current Tercel) and that I would just feel safer in case I were caught in a James Bond/McGyver situation. You know, with flooded streets, blizzards etc. I really only plan to go to the store with it occasionally, and visit my Dad about 50 mi down the road.

    Offroad- What, are you crazy? It might get scratched. I may even get a bumper sticker that says "Yes, I only go to the store in this."

    To me, that feeling of solidity and capability is what I would be buying. And that's worth it to me. Still, I'm just in the research stage, and I've been finding an unsettling number of posts about crappy support from the Jeep People (Diamler-Chrysler?), and some pulling-to-the-right problems and a few other minor things like tipping over and/or exploding where the dealer ends up just shrugging and saying "Hey, tough luck".

    Hmph. More research is needed.

    -Russell
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 3rd row in the MDX is actually quite different from the Ody, and not nearly as magic.

    We could care less about image. In fact we test drove several minivans, including the Sedona and MPV. Heck, I wouldn't have minded one at all.

    Why did we pass? Some issues:

    * front wheel drive: which meant torque steer, not very fun to drive, no AWD on the MPV or Odyssey, our two top choices

    * too much mass: all seemed heavy, even the relatively light MPV

    * poor visibility: it may even be the sheer size of some of these, but my Forester is far easier to maneuver, and visiblity is a whole lot better

    I think most sport/cutes address these, at least having AWD and less mass/bulk to haul around. They are just more fun to drive.

    -juice
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Since you are only going to use this mini-suv as a commuter/on pavement vehicle.. I would highly recommned you look more closely at the car based SUV's. They get better MPG and ride much nicer than your truck based SUV's. Test drive them all, the RAV4, CRV, Escape/Tribute, VUE, Santa Fe.. Test drives are free! When I was shopping I told the salesperson right up front I was only test driving and in the beginning stages of comparing... Good luck..
  • canadatwocanadatwo Member Posts: 198
    not quite.

    I remember reading an article about the performance of the MDX AWD in the snow.
    It was the clear winner, beating all comers, even the Jeep GC (with its real 4wd system).
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I find this hard to believe.. a car based SUV beating a truck frame/based SUV in snow?? I wouldn't be surprised if their was bias involved because of the Acura name.....
  • mad0865mad0865 Member Posts: 176
    What does one have to do with the other? The idea behind getting a truck based SUV is for off roading. Most car based suv's have AWD and should do fine in the snow/rain.

    Get what you want. Listen to Scape2. Test drive everything you're interested in 3 times, different dealers. Read the reviews, and don't listen to other users blowing their comments about ugly suv's, or this one can't do that attitudes. Good luck.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    don't get mad...
    I own a 4x4 truck and also have been offroading for many years now. Believe me, you don't want to take a car based SUV into MOAB or up lions back, or through the Rubicon. YOu will absolutely tweak the frame/drivetrain and you would not make it.
    Snow/ice - Although I have had my Escape in snow/ice conditions I still feel my truck handled them better, just felt more stable/solid.
    I have however had the Escape on logging roads/access roads and its done just fine too!
    I see another topic coming along Truck based SUV's vs car based SUv's.. anyone interested?
    It really depends on your personal use..
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    The reason I read this board avidly is because I am actively looking at all of these cars, I think I will find what meets my needs in this bunch. I am looking for strictly a commuter car - not an off-roader. I want something that gets good gas mileage because my commute is 75 miles one way. I need something with pretty good power and a good tranny because I have to go up steep grades on the freeway home - I live at 6,000 feet and work at sea level. I need AWD/4x4 to get out of my driveway in winter, since I have a thing about chains and shovels at 4am. So yes, I am looking at all these.

    They aren't as car like as the CRV and Rav4, which I don't like due to my personal preference for trucks (and seeing too many stuck CRVs up here in the winter). They are better for commuting than more truck based SUVs. But I stand by my original statement - they really are more car based than truck based. That was not meant to be a negative.

    And juice has just about convinced me that the Forester is the way I should go. I have 6 more months to try to convince my husband of this before we will be in a position to buy anything, so I avidly read this board.

    I would also be interested if anyone has any experience with the CVT Vue. That could solve my tranny concerns without going to a manual.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    Check the VUE board.. I think there are some problems with the CVT.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    I'm gone for a week and there's 65 new posts on this board! Wow.... Some comments on what I read...

    Liberty....doesn't belong here. It handles like a truck. Its a truck. Period. Its the first mini-SUV I test drove. Never drove it again. Handling was poor and the ride was tippy. My next test drive was the Escape and the difference in handling was amazing (on the positive side). It was that test drive of the Escape that convinced me to go the "car based" SUV route. The VUE and the CRV should be included here as I mentioned earlier.

    VUE vs. Santa Fe looks. Neither is really ugly. But overall, I think the SF is better looking. And no problem loading the "curvy" cargo area! The SF did wonderfully on our vacation (28 MPG on the way down!). I think Saturn will get disappointing sales results on the VUE. First, its lateness to the market. Second, its cheap interior and mini-van like handling. I am seeing more and more SFs on the road in my area and saw a surprising number down at the beach (even another Pine Green one!).
    Didn't get to ride on the beach with the SF since I didn't want to pay $100 for the privilege! I understand why they make it so hard to get the permit, though!
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    I have no problems believing that an AWD system like that on the MDX would be better than that of the Jeep Grand Cherokee at keeping a vehicle ON THE ROAD in the snow. That's what it's designed for. I had a 4x4 S-10 that wasn't really that great in the snow either. For off roading, however, the Jeep's system would walk all over the MDX's. I still would take an Odyssey over a Pilot or MDX, simply because it's cheaper and truer to the purpose of the original design - transport 7-8 people comfortably. I just don't see the "value add" for the Honda SUVs. Moot point anyway, since I'd have a hard time buying anything much bigger than an MPV (wife hates driving large vehicles).

    -Jason
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    "The reason I read this board avidly is because I am actively looking at all of these cars, I think I will find what meets my needs in this bunch. I am looking for strictly a commuter car - not an off-roader. I want something that gets good gas mileage because my commute is 75 miles one way. I need something with pretty good power and a good tranny because I have to go up steep grades on the freeway home - I live at 6,000 feet and work at sea level. I need AWD/4x4 to get out of my driveway in winter, since I have a thing about chains and shovels at 4am. So yes, I am looking at all these. "

    No offense but the trannies found in the car-based SUVs with AWD are considered pretty weak comparted to say truck/SUV based ones. I'd go for the Liberty for power/tranny/rough and tumbleness.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The Liberty is Unibody just like the rest of the SMVs being discussed here.

    -mike
  • jellin2374jellin2374 Member Posts: 1
    I'm looking at the 2wd Escape and would like any comments on this. Also would like to do some towing with the vehicle.
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    2wd Escape is awsome. I have one and the combo of front wheel drive and decent ground clearance gets one a long way in snowy conditions.

    I wouldn't tow anything more with the Escape than you would a normal passenger car.. It's a light vehicle, and short wheelbase. Watch carefully how much weight you tow and be careful.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Throw on some snow tires and I bet it would be even better! :) Tires are probably the #1 thing that helps in snow, IMHO.

    -mike
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    carseeker - thanks for the suggestion of looking again at the Vue board. I quit reading it after I test drove one and didn't like the blind spot where the front windshield attaches to the side. But I could get used to it if the CVT were a viable auto tranny alternative.

    One of the reasons I keep coming back to the Forester is because they offer a manual tranny with all kinds of other options, like heated seats, etc. That's not something that the others offer - the Escape/Tribute offer a manual only with the 4 cylinder, and they always seem to be too basic for what I want. I already know what it is like to spend 3 hours a day, every day, in an uncomfortable vehicle - that describes my 2000 xtra cab 2WD Tacoma (74,000 miles on it in 22 months). The only good thing about it is the 5 speed, 4 cylinder combination (good gas mileage and adequate/good power).

    And the fact that the Liberty seems to have the best auto tranny is why I still consider it. While I would like to get an auto tranny, it isn't the biggest thing on my list. Disadvantage is the gas mileage, and that is significant.
  • mmspealmmspeal Member Posts: 122
    My dad works at a GM transmission plant and at the beginning of the year, their production was cut as they thought the CVT was going to take over. Although the concept is great, apparently there are still some significant issues with cooling the CVT. When I purchased my VUE, he told me not to buy the CVT which is why I ordered the 4 cyl., 5 speed. Since then, production in their plant has been boosted back up again to pre-CVT levels - that tells me that even GM doesn't have a lot of faith in the CVT yet.
  • vin_weaselvin_weasel Member Posts: 237
    All of the Jeep Suv's have been unibody for the last 18 years (except for the Wrangler, of course) and I think you'll agree that out of all of the vehicles listed in this comparison, the Liberty has the strongest.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Agreed weasel.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    mtngal: sounds to me like you've chosen, so what's the hold up? ;-)

    Subaru does equip their models comprehensively. The "base" model has AWD and ABS, for instance, and loaded Premium models have more gadgets than any other competitor, particularly when you narrow it down to 5 speeds only.

    And given as much time and distance you cover in your vehicle, those just might make ownership that much better. Heated seats, for instance, can be a back saver, and not just when it's cold.

    -juice
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    I thought they were a little silly at first - then again, we bought it in the spring! After spending a winter with them I doubt I'll ever get my wife to drive a car without bun warmers.

    -Jason
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    any of us would disagree the Liberty has the strongest frame/suspension out of all the above..
    mnt, sounds like your minds already made up...
    Sounds like the 5spd Forester fits your needs for MPG and road conditions.. Good luck!
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    It all comes down to money. We are still very upside down on the loan for the Taco, which is what we will dump. It is depreciating faster than I can pay it off! So a new car will have to wait until the '98 Wrangler is paid off this coming spring. My husband wants to wait until the fall for other financial reasons, but I don't think my back is going to hold out that long!

    The other thing is that while I got excited about the 2002 Forester we test drove, my other half was only luke-warm, especially since I really want those heated seats, which means the XS. He's been luke-warm about everything we've looked at - I think he's gun-shy, since he was the one that chose the Tacoma. When we finally realized that there was no way we could buy something until we were down to one car payment he quit looking at cars altogether, so I haven't really looked at the 2003 Forester. The Wrangler was my choice, and he used to give me all kinds of grief about it at first. Now he even talks about just getting another one to go with our current one (while I would love to have a new Wrangler, it really isn't practical). So now I'm (im)patiently waiting and reading so I'll be a better buyer when the time comes.
  • zaimonivizaimonivi Member Posts: 3
    Has anyone here looked at Edmund's "True Cost to Own" service? I got some interesting results by looking up a 2002 Mazda Tribute based on 5 years of ownership in my area: $38,039.


    It actually ended up being the second cheapest of similarly-equipped mini-utes to own over a 5 year period:


    • Honda CR-V: $34,778

    • Ford Escape: $40,685

    • Jeep Liberty: $41,300

    • LR Freelander: $46,356

    • Hyundai Santa Fe: $38,698


    These prices were for the Northern California Area. I'm sure that they may come out differently in other parts of the country once you calculate gas costs, taxes and licensing...


    Sorry for just jumping into this forum without any warning... However, some of you may remember me as jmlagasca (it's been more than a year since I last posted, i think). I still have my 2001 Mazda Tribute ES 4wd, now with 26k miles and (other than some cosmetic dings) no mechanical problems (i.e. stalling, gas smells...) for more than 18 months! Should I keep knocking on wood?

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hasn't been all that long since you posted:

    jmlagasca "Mazda Tribute/ Ford Escape problems" Mar 21, 2002 10:00pm

    Did you lose your password or something?

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    TCO is an interesting way to look at things, but it ignores the ownership experience.

    I'll offer an example. Would you rather drive a vehicle that you love, and are thrilled with, and pay a little more? I certainly would.

    -juice
  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
    We're crazy in love with our Forester and the TCO is cheaper than that quoted for competing vehicles posted above! Plus, we didn't finance, so we're even better off! I think I'll go downstairs and kiss my car!
  • canadatwocanadatwo Member Posts: 198
    $2,700 diff over 5 years does not make sense.

    They should depreciate the same, have same repair costs etc.

    Original cost is within $1,000

    what gives?
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I like the TCO because it gives you some comparison figures. However, I don't take it as my personal, actual cost of ownership over a 5 year period.

    One of the things that Edmunds factors into their figure is resale prices. If I'm not going to sell at 5 years it won't be something I'm going to figure in (though it would be an appropriate figure for a business computing depreciation and expenses). If you have a high mileage vehicle the resale is going to be less, but not necessarily at the same rate as another vehicle, so that will throw it off also.

    As far as the Escape and Tribute being different - that doesn't surprise me at all. They don't cost the same and they won't depreciate the same. An example will probably be the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe. They are the same car but in 5 years the Toyota will be worth more because it is a Toyota.
  • zaimonivizaimonivi Member Posts: 3
    I haven't lost my password. However, lets just say I've gone through some sort of identity change, my post history (e.g. March 2002) would testify to that, j/k. I just felt like being a bit different, anyways, if anyone out there has AIM and wants to chat about mini-suvs they can reach me at the same name.

    Regarding TCO, I checked again and Edmunds gave me different prices. Overall, the relationship between the vehicles' TCO prices remain the same.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    ..... how do we extrapolate a 5 year cost of ownership when the cars are only 2 model years old?! Just a dumb question. Is that like a weather forecast?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hey Zaimonivi, the Members Agreement says you can only have one id, so we'll kill the other unless we hear from you otherwise.

    The guy who figures out the TCO stuff has been known to hang out in the New Edmunds.com Tool: TCO discussion.

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    TCO has some holes in it. First of all the actual resale and TMV don't match up when you punch the numbers. I punched my 2001 Escape in for TMV and the numbers are way off when comparing the TCO resale. I asked Edmunds and didn't get an answer.. As you said TCO can have many variations, financing, insurance costs, fuel price fluctuations, initial price paid. I have yet to see anyone who paid 24K for an Escape. XLT V6 Ford Escapes like mine are now going for $19,999 in my region. And the dealer just doesn't have 1 or 2 you have a nice selection of colors to choose from. I have about 12k on my Escape and not any problems here either..:-)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Me too (no financing). Plus I paid below the Edmunds TMV, and would sell mine privately and get better resale that way, if I sold, that is.

    The CR-V does particularly well, but I'm not sure they factor that most owners pay MSRP. So resale is great, yes, but they paid more to begin with.

    Conversely, the Santa Fe, for instance, may not have good resale as a % of the MSRP. But most owners don't pay MSRP. If you get $3000 off the MSRP, that's $3000 less depreciation you experienced.

    -juice
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    I asked the guys in Real World Trade in how the Santa Fe is doing resale wise, and I was pleasantly surprised. They said it would probably do in the $14k to $15k range as a trade in - I expected worse for a year old car with 22k miles I paid well under $20k for new. Granted, it's not an Odyssey with no depreciation to speak of, but it's not the proverbial Korean depreciation monster, either. Probably because it's still selling well new with no incentives.

    Oh, and my neighbor just bought a new Liberty. She's wanted one ever since she had a rental for a week while her Honda was in the shop. I told her I thought it was cute, and she seemed pleased ;-)

    -Jason
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Remember, many Odyssey owners paid markups, plus they had to wait in line to get them.

    So although they seem to have great resale, there was still some depreciation, at least.

    To me, the bottom line is that if you enjoy your SF, it was the right choice.

    -juice
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    I keep bugging a girl at work who ordered an Odyssey in April and figured she'd have it by July....nope... not till Sept now! I think that is ridiculous! Honda either needs to improve production or something.... its nuts. They're great vehicles, but I'll thankfully settle for a bit less and have it within a reasonable time. Plus, the HAF (Honda Arrogance Factor)... I keep trying to buy one but the prices, arrogant dealers and the wait keep moving me somewhere else. Honda will be in trouble in a few years if this kind of nonsense keeps up.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    I just noticed that the Saturn VUE was included in on the discussion topic! Congrats, VUE-seekers. Now if we can get the CRV in here, I can insult those arrogant Honda dealers to their virtual face! (I am not under the illusion that dealers don't post here!)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "HAF" Honda Arrogance Factor! LOL! thats good!. This is rampant and is spreading like wildfire across the net. This stigma of Honda can do no wrong by reviewers/magazines is going to start to backfire. I own a 2000 Accord and have had it in the shop 3x! I thought these cars were supposed to be perfect and go a million miles on one oil change, and never need brakes, and never need fuel...:-)).
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