So basically you're saying if you compare 2 vehicles, more HP is always better...I don't buy it. The lower HP vehicle may be able to do all those things you mentioned, and get better mpg
I didn't quite say that, I said that not having enough HP means you will struggle up steep inclines when you have a lot of weight in the car.
You won't make it up the hill at 80 with less than 200hp carrying a 1200 lb payload, you may not be able to hold 55mph.
More HP is better IF the new engine can obtain the same efficiency as the one it replaced. The 3.5l in the Sienna did that, as it has the same efficiency as the 3.3l. It even beats the 3.0l that came before. 266hp vs. 190hp and it's more fuel efficient!
Reply to post 247 by dennis: yes, plenty of competitors have backup cameras, the Ody I test drove had one and I was able to sample it.
Reply to post 248 by marine2: I did list the Dodge features I knew off the top of my head, and you added a few to my list. But half the stuff you mentioned I have in my Sienna, and it's a pretty basic model.
Maybe it's time to update my list, I'll try to do that.
It might be useful for us to list what is unique about each of these 3 vans. I'll start, please feel free to add things I forgot to mention.
Now let's update the list:
Dodge has Stow-n-Go, Swivel-n-Go, self-leveling shocks, 2 screen Sat TV, power folding 3rd row, 6 speed auto, lifetime powertrain warranty, class-leading torque, knee air bags, battery saver, AC power, adjustable pedals, integrated booster, LED lighting, flashlight, umbrella holder, flex-fuel, myGig, remote start.
Honda has VCM, rear mutli-link suspension and run-flats. Help me out Honda owners because I know there are more! Edit: add voice recognition on the NAV and power adjustable pedals, AC outlet (note: all 3 have this!).
Toyota has power folding 3rd row, all-wheel drive, HIDs, run-flats, power 3rd row vent windows, 3rd row that can tailgate, 8 seat model, Bluetooth, Laser Adaptive Cruise Control, tow prep package standard, turn signal in the mirrors, telescoping wheel, auto express button moonroof, auto dimming driver's side mirror, fold flat passenger seat, 2 in glass antennae, 2 115 power outlets, battery saver, and class leading power.
Same rules as last time: let me know what I missed.
I will by a minivan sometime in the next few months, and have read lots of reviews, but this is one of the best discussions I have seen, so thank you everyone. A couple of things I would note/ask: 1 - People here seem very quiet on the Kia/Hyundai, is this just a reluctance re: a new line that hasn't proven its worth? I have read lots of good safety/cost reviews of both of them. 2 - I am frustrated by automotive reviewers who review only mid-level or totally decked-out vehicles. I don't care about moon roofs, heated seats, cup holders, or what the top of the line engine does. I want to know how the basic models stack up against each other, I am not looking to spend as much as I can, I am looking to spend as little as I have to. 3 - Sorry if I missed it, but I now do not understand the general difference between the Dodge GC line and the Chrysler T&C - I thought the T&C was the upscale line, but with things I have seen here I am now not so sure. What is the rationale/difference between the two lines? 4 - I am a newby at buying a new vehicle - let's say I must buy one by February of next year - any insight on when the best time to buy on 08 model would be? Or is it all the same until we get to Fall 09? 5 - Fellow Toronto-area folk, I have heard Toyota dealers have high enough demand that they are not overly accomodating on the Sienna $ - anyone have personal experience with this? 6 - Last but not least, when I look at the online stock of my Dodge dealer, they seem to have an awful lot of 07 minivans left. What do people here think - go for a discounted 07, or a new 08 GC? I am a little worried that so many 07 GCs are left - I can't find any 07 Sienna's at local dealers. And most positive reviews I've read of GC deal with the 08 model, not the 07s.
More HP is better IF the new engine can obtain the same efficiency as the one it replaced.
If the old engine already had enough HP for it's intended use, then if the engine is more efficient it should keep the HP the same but increase the fuel efficiency because better MPG is always better, while more HP at the expense of MPG is always worse if there already was enough HP to do the job.
Either that, or you just gear the engine very tall, which is what Toyota did.
Tall gearing has the same effect as using a smaller engine. The bigger engine turns fewer RPMs and uses the same amount (or even less) fuel. Yet you have the power for the times when you need it, the transmission can just kick down.
Their strategy worked. I've twice averaged 30.6 mpg driving to the beach, about a 3 hour trip.
That's with 5 people, luggage, and a dog, going 65-75 mph. I could do better at 55mph with an empty van.
Drive them, they're not far from what I consider the class leaders. Value is a strong point.
In fact, in my opinion the base vans from Hyundai and Kia represent the best value, because at those prices they make no excuses whatsoever.
By that I mean material quality that you might complain about on a $28k van are perfectly fine at $19,800, which was the street price for a Hyundai Entourage GLS last time I checked.
I drove a more loaded up one, and felt that for mid 20s pricing I wanted a nicer environment.
I shopped here: www.fitzmall.com
My concerns:
* at the time, Kia/Hyundai had not yet sorted out a tire balance issue, now there is a TSB * unproven reliability, though it looks promising * poor resale still plagues Hyundai (1 star ALG) * wife still felt Hyundai's image was not there yet
I didn't care about image, but the Sienna has 5 star resale and a nicer interior, so we spent a bit more and have no regrets.
If my budget were $20k there might be an Entourage in my driveway, though.
Another Quest basher, huh? What do you own? I'm a bit sick and tired of hearing all the bad-mouthing of the Quest. Here is my own personal experience with the Quest (since I own one!). We bought a Quest SE in May 05. Since then, we have accumulated ~22.5K miles on it, and did numerous trips from Potomac, MD to Williamsburg, VA. We also did a few longer trips to Outer Banks, NC, and to Montreal, QC (Canada). Any problems as you mentioned (loud engine noise, rattles, squeaks, etc.)? NO, NON, NOPE, NIET, NADA (feel free to add a few more "NO" in other languages if you know them!). We carried load (and I mean LOAD OF LUGGAGES) on these trips and never ran out of space. With 2 young kids (or infants), you can imagine what you have to bring, right? "Cargo is least in its class"! What do you carry? Your whole house with you? "Lack of split 3rd row" True but I never felt I needed one! "Lack of roll-down window for the 2nd row" That's why the AC is there for, for God's sake! Beside, roll down your own window brings in enough wind to blow your wig off, trust me! "Test drive sienna/ody" Yup, did that and I loved what Quest gave me over the 2 other ones, including the styling (What is there to like a boxy thing like the Ody. Sat in, drove it, even have my sister owns it, so I guess I know a bit what I'm talking about here); I take it you like vanilla ice cream over all the other flavors, right?). Sing all the praises on Sienna or Ody or any other van if you will, but stop bashing the Quest for no good reason.
3 - Sorry if I missed it, but I now do not understand the general difference between the Dodge GC line and the Chrysler T&C - I thought the T&C was the upscale line, but with things I have seen here I am now not so sure. What is the rationale/difference between the two lines?
The Chrysler is the upscale line. You'll get a little upgrade finish, like wood grain look dash, a softer ride, different wheels and a bit more chrome. But everything else about the two makes is pretty much the same.
Difference between 07-08 Dodge/Chrysler is new look compared to old. You can get the life time warranty on both and there should be some great discounts on the 07.
I own 2005 Nissan Quest S. It is the most disappointing vehicle i ever purchased. I bought mine in Nov 2005 (new 15 miles on ODO). It is slightly over 12k miles now. I am on the 3rd set of rotors. My tranny slip from 2-3. Nissan refuses to repair this junk. There many places has rattle that both slide doors, back hatch, side mirrors, Front windows, and seatbelts. I feel like the van is going to fall apart soon. Currently, I still have a 1997 Mercury Village (brother's of Nissan Quest) at the same time. I thought the junk will be as reliable as my Villager so we go with the Quest. What a mistake! I should have believe the Consumer Report. My old one drives nicer than 2004+ junk, despite it underpowered. I won't make a personal attack at you. I do notice it has way too much vibration in this van. When it idles in Drive, look towards the passenger side, the headrest/chair is shaking/vibrating. If you dont notice this in your van, Congratulation. Lastly, I forgot about this van has a big turning radius that a sienna could make a 5-pt turn, whereas i make 9-pt turn on same tight spot. The rear view is so bad that it is very hard to see/estimate the space when back-in. Congratulation to you again that you have the rear view camera so it does affect you! Glad to see you love your Quest!
Amazing to see such opposite opinions & experiences. Do you know anyone with a 2007 Quest though? Supposedly they made major improvements with the 2007 and addressed many of the issues you've experienced.
The rattle still exists on 07. I haven't driven one, but it rides alike. The shuttle i rode on has only one rattling slide door (wow), yet it is a lot louder than mine. Still, 2007 has improved, but still nowhere near Ody/Sienna level of refinement. Look how little Quest sales even they revised it, I would wonder why.
When looking at minivans a few years ago, I was told by a Toyota salesman that the power sliding door was the cause of 99 % of Sienna problems. Fortunately, my 06 Sienna does NOT have the driver's side power sliding door that is the subject of this Toyota Sienna Defect. :shades:
Will Toyota step up and offer a recall to fix this major problem? :confuse:
Even if you don't stow the seats, there's a tremendous amount of storage area in those wells. So then though, if you have stuff stored in them and you then need to stow the seats, you'll have to remove all the stuff stored in the wells.
Both fully loaded FWD - T&C cost about $3K more! $39175 vs $42K+. Is the T&C worth that much more? Doesn't the Sienna have higher quality materials inside?
For $3K I could still have $ left over after buying a computer w/ more than 20 gig, an ipod,dvd player, snack trays and more than 1 flashlight, extended warranty. Don't really need dvd's, but nice to have for the rare occasion and don't need SAT TV w/ just 3 channels for a monthly fee after 1 yr. So which is a better vehicle as far as driving, comfort, etc. Is the T&C worth $3K more so my passenger has more power seat adjustments and the 2nd row passengers can heat up their seats when it's cold? Or paying more because it looks different....etc. Which has the better sounded stereo? That's important to me. Guess I should go test drive a 2008 Sienna.
Both fully loaded FWD - T&C cost about $3K more! $39175 vs $42K+. Is the T&C worth that much more? Doesn't the Sienna have higher quality materials inside?
Yes, but the Chrysler will probably be discounted and the Toyota won't. So chances you'll pay more for the Sienna and not get nearly as much on it. The leather on the Chrysler has been upgraded. The main difference inside, is the plastic look. One is softer and rounded. the other is more squared off and harder. Both look nice.
So which is a better vehicle as far as driving, comfort, etc. Is the T&C worth $3K more so my passenger has more power seat adjustments and the 2nd row passengers can heat up their seats when it's cold? Or paying more because it looks different....etc. Which has the better sounded stereo? That's important to me. Guess I should go test drive a 2008 Sienna.
I don't know which has the better sound system. I do know Chrysler has a 506 watt 7.1 surround system with subwoofer. What does the Toyota and Honda have?
Funny, before Chrysler came out with all this stuff on their van, Toyota and Honda owners were saying they got them because of all the goodies and safety features they had that Chrysler didn't. The inside of Chrysler was to bland. The 1.7 second advantage Honda had in the quarter mile made Chrysler vans a dog and unsafe to pull out in traffic. Now Chrysler has put to bed all those concerns and did Toyota and Honda one better and all of a sudden it's who needs all that stuff on their vans? Funny how things change.
On the way home from Sam's, I stopped at a Chrysler dealer and test drove my first 08 T&C limited today. Here's my impressions:
1) OMG is it fast, compared to my 2005 3.8. Shifts were smooth too.
2) Was quieter than my 05 I noticed.
3) I think the interior matches anything else on the market. The small graining was uniform from IP to door, it was rich looking and I loved the satin metal inserts.
4) $38,000 - OUCH!!!!!
5) The sales person knew all about it, showing me all the features of MyGig and even loading pics to it!!!
6) Seats were very comfortable, supportive etc.. Although Swivel n Go, did nothing for me. I want/need Stown N Go.
Said he could probably knock a few thousand off?
I can't justify a new minivan when my old one has only 21k miles on it though. I think I'll hang on a few more years here!
Too bad Chrysler doesn't make the 4.0L optional on the LX model. :shades:
To be fair: WHY don't Honda and Toyota make the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger optional on the Odyssey LX and Sienna CE? :confuse:
To be fair to all, Motorweek never met a car it DIDN'T like so do not quote them. Motorweek is best used to see the features of the vehicles they are testing. Unlike Consumer Reports who BUYS the vehicles they test, Motorweek is loaned their vehicles by manufacturers. Also,in some markets Motorweek is on commercial TV with commercials. One has to wonder how much consideration Motorweek gives "not biting the hand it feeds from". Yes, the Odyssey has been their Driver's Choice Award for best minivan for the past couple of years but that means doodly squat to me.
Before you start calling me all manner of names I am not trying to be negative or positive about the Chrysler vans, just stating a case for NOT using Motorweek as a test standard.
Anyone know of any small minivans out there on the horizon except for the current Rondo and Mazda5? By small minivan I'm talking about small 3-row vehicles.
Yet still, 79% of Sienna owners would buy another, compared to only 49% of Caravan owners.
My point is, if you look hard enough you'll find many sites like this for any given vehicle.
I Googled "Dodge AND Caravan AND Lemon" and got 602,000 hits. Given the human life expectancy of a mere 75 years or so, I would die before I finished my research, so I'll pass on any further investigation, but it's fair to say it would not be hard to find one (or 50) similar sites for the Dodge vans.
marine wrote: Chrysler will probably be discounted and the Toyota won't
You mentioned this in the other thread, and I showed how loaded Chryslers in the Mid-Atlantic actually cost $2400 more right now. This is comparing 2008s for both, with no rebates on either, same exact dealer, both no-haggle prices.
Now Chrysler has put to bed all those concerns and did Toyota and Honda one better
No sir! Not so fast (pardon the pun). Edmunds has not yet tested the new 3.5l Sienna, which is the quickest van ever tested by many magazines. It is both lighter and more powerful than the Dodge/Chrysler top 4.0l engine. I'm willing to wager the Toyota is still quicker - some reviews have 0-60 in the high 6s, the slowest times I've seen was 7.8 seconds to 60. So even the slowest time for a Sienna beats Edmunds' 4.0l T&C.
Toyota and Honda owners were saying they got them because of all the goodies and safety features they had that Chrysler didn't
I respectually disagree. When I did my research in shopping for a minivan that's not at all the impression you got from the Ody/Sienna threads.
The Honda Ody threads focus mostly on the handling. Sure, some people here and there will mention their favorite feature, but the bottom line that made the Ody stand out was that it handled most like a car.
If you go to the Sienna threads and ask why they got it, the two things that come up consistently are reliability and space. It's the only van with 8 comfortable seats, and many owners are on their 3rd (or 10th) Toyota.
Safety features? No way, Sienna didn't even make VSC standard until 2008! How could they be bragging about that? :confuse:
I will say this - I am seeing a lot of passion from Dodge owners, and I respect that a lot more than any talk of 0-60 times. :shades:
Go to this website, out of all minivans, the Odyssey had the most complaints, a lot about the transmission even on 2006 models. The sienna didn't have many, and the chrysler had a few, but the dodge had a lot.
OK so make it over a million minivans for DCX who's made how many minivans in 24 years? I'm guessing 10 million+? vs. Honda who's been building minivans since 1999 and sold maybe 1.5 million?
All this proves, conclusively, is that...I'm hungry for lunch.
I brought this up, remember, when hansienna offered up a link to one single web site relating to unhappy van owners.
My point then, and now, reiterated by thegraduate, is that a bunch of web sites don't really prove anything. The data they are gathering is not scientific.
The millions of web sites I Googled just goes to show, anyone can do it, i.e. put up a web site to whine about something.
And as has been noted in just about every problem forum here and in the web universe, those that have issues with their vehicle are far more vocal than the happy and content owners.
Yet still, 79% of Sienna owners would buy another, compared to only 49% of Caravan owners.
I think I can understand that. While I love my 2005 DGC. The outside is as nice as any of them. Up until the 2008, the inside of the Dodge/Chrysler's were very bland and for years, they didn't do anything to dress them up. My Brother's 1999 Plymouth minivan looks much like my 2005 inside. That has to be a turn off to anyone buying a new one. I know I kept a Ford Ranger for 11 years and went to buy a new one and the inside was much like my old one. Instead I bought a Dodge Dakota.
The Honda Ody threads focus mostly on the handling. Sure, some people here and there will mention their favorite feature, but the bottom line that made the Ody stand out was that it handled most like a car.
One thing they have said about the Chrysler minivans from the first year they ever made them, was they drove like a car.
No sir! Not so fast (pardon the pun). Edmunds has not yet tested the new 3.5l Sienna, which is the quickest van ever tested by many magazines. It is both lighter and more powerful than the Dodge/Chrysler top 4.0l engine. I'm willing to wager the Toyota is still quicker - some reviews have 0-60 in the high 6s, the slowest times I've seen was 7.8 seconds to 60. So even the slowest time for a Sienna beats Edmunds' 4.0l T&C.
Are we to buy a minivan for speed? I mean they're not race cars. The 4.1 is faster than the 3.8 and the 3.8 was only 1.7 sec. slower than the Honda in the quarter mile. My 3.8 has all the horses I need. How fast it was, wasn't even a consideration. Having enough speed to climb a mountain and to merge onto the freeway easily enough was and it did both quite well.
I think with the new minivans, you'll always find one that will do somethings better than the other in all the makes. So when you pick one, you have to know what you want and need. I wouldn't buy a Chrysler minivan if I needed to carry eight people at times. Some wouldn't buy a Honda or Toyota if your going to carry a lot of stuff, as I doubt you'd want to haul seats in and out. If you don't have a few kids, Chrysler's television or duel individual DVD's wouldn't interest you. But if you like to load your own music and pictures on My Gig, Chrysler might be your choice.
My self, I like to buy American owned and made when ever possible. It keeps money here to help create jobs for other Americans. Although my wife loved the dash in the Honda Civic, over the Ford Focus, she won out. I wanted the Dodge because of the stow-n-go. I have had trucks for years and saw how much a minivan could hold when my Brother and I moved my Sister and he used his minivan and I used my truck. He was getting more in than I was. I just didn't like having to take out and put back his heavy seats. So a lot depends on what you want and how you feel.
Good post...there's not any "best" because it really depends on your needs.
Yet still, 79% of Sienna owners would buy another, compared to only 49% of Caravan owners.
Or maybe Sienna owners aren't even willing to look at other vehicles? Maybe Caravan owners are smarter shoppers who like to look around and compare, while Sienna owners don't even consider anything else based on the other reviewers. I've heard many folks say that "I'd never buy a Dodge because they're unreliable." or "I'd never buy a Ford because they're junk" but then I've never heard anyone say "I'd never buy a Toyota because they're junk" True or not, it's the perception for many.
The survey is more about buyer's remorse than it is about satisfaction. They asked existing owners if they would buy the same van again if they could go back in time. It's not what they would consider next time around.
If buyers only want Toyota, and won't consider another brand, it's likely due to a good experience with the product in that past, and that would have been earned.
But remember, they asked people if they could go back, would they buy the same van again, so very few Sienna buyers felt buyer's remorse, i.e. they were happy with their decision after the purchase.
Any how, one would expect Dodge's numbers to improve substantially given the significant update.
Vans are not for speed, but someone mentioned the Dodge was the quickest, and I don't believe it is. I was correcting them. I didn't bring up speed as a high priority.
Given the high payloads these are rated to carry, however, I do think that having abundant power is important.
I'm a Brazilian citizen so the "Made in America" tag doesn't mean much to me, but the Sienna is built by Hoosiers, FWIW.
I guess I should buy a Mini Cooper, because the engines are made in Brazil. :shades:
"If you’re in the market for a minivan now, the Town & Country Limited provides an incredible set of options, and is nicer to drive than the Toyota Sienna, and more comfortable than the Honda Odyssey; reliability rankings generally put the Chrysler and Honda together, in the “average” category, but the new “lifetime” powertrain warranty might help nervous prospects to give some more credence to the Chrysler. Either way, this generation once again leapfrogs the competition - and perhaps Chrysler will surprise us again in a couple of years, instead of making us wait until 2012. "
That's a great writeup, but then again it is a Chrysler site I'll think of it as "balance" for the Edmunds/CR writeups.
I really liked the detail they got into, such as lighting of controls and storage like map pockets. Pictures were great too, not the typical OEM provided marketing pics.
The review actually seems pretty balanced, though, all things considered. They actually found it less nimble than the outgoing 2007s. Ride is better, though, and it's more quiet.
Sounds like T&C will chase the Sienna (quiet, ride-biased), while Dodge goes Honda hunting (handling).
While backing up "yellow and red LED lights that can be seen in the rear-view mirror" - cool.
Soft table is "not useful as an adult work table", but that's gotta be because they were concerned about it becoming a projectile in a crash. So this makes sense.
Why are the door pockets so shallow? And how 'bout a bottle holder, or is that just not shown in their picture?
The green lighting is pimp! Can you turn them off so the kids can sleep? (Yes, answered later in the article)
D-pillar is wide for that power hatch, so I wonder if that affects visibility. They have 3 kinds of backup assistance so you're probably fine there.
Bummer they didn't test a model with NAV to comment on its operation.
The Swivel seats look *much* nicer than the Stowable ones.
They should just make 1st gear taller, that would fix the tire squeel and probably help EPA city mileage, too.
As a former satisfied owner of a T&C, I disagree with the statement that the T&C Limited is more comfortable than the Honda Odyssey.
I sat in a 2007 Odyssey Touring yesterday, and ALL seats were MUCH more comfortable than any of the dozens of T&C I have ever sat in....including more than one T&C Limited. The severe tilt of the 3rd row seat bottom of ALL Chrysler Stow 'N Go (and now also Swivel 'N Go) makes the 3rd row seat much less comfortable than either the Odyssey or Sienna 3rd row seats.
You thought the Swivel'N Go in the 2008 had a severe tilt? I think they're comfortable and my knees are not up high with little thigh support like in the crossovers. I'm still waiting to check out the improved Stow'N Go. The 3rd row didn't seem bad either except you have to raise the head rests so they're not down to your shoulders. I haven't seen the power 3rd row in person. Wondering if it's more comfortable than the manual third row. And per videos, it looks like you manually would still have to lower the head rests for the seat to stow or else the obstacle detection system would make the seat return upright. Still driving a '97 GC Sport with fabric seats. Still just as comfortable as always. SO are the 2nd row captains chairs and the 3rd row non stowable bench is comfortable too. It seems to even have more leg room than the 2008 and it can be slid back and forth for either more leg room or more cargo area. Nice feature. The fabric on all seats still looks almost new. They're holding up remarkably well.
I have a 2004 Sienna and have liked many of the comfort features, ride, etc. However, my van has the drivers side door weld that has broken (see http://www.toyotasiennadefects.info).
Has anyone seen a 2008 Sienna if they have made any changes to the design? I am gun shy of them. I plan on will getting mine fixed and looking at the Honda or Chrysler...
Or maybe Sienna owners aren't even willing to look at other vehicles? Maybe Caravan owners are smarter shoppers who like to look around and compare, while Sienna owners don't even consider anything else based on the other reviewers. I've heard many folks say that "I'd never buy a Dodge because they're unreliable." or "I'd never buy a Ford because they're junk" but then I've never heard anyone say "I'd never buy a Toyota because they're junk" True or not, it's the perception for many.
Well for a long time, vehicles like the Toyota did have a big advantage over American vehicles. But that advantage is pretty much gone. American vehicles are rated better than European in quality and dependability and I think close to par with Asian vehicles. Toyota has sliped badly in the last few years, although you would never know it by reading Consumers Report. They still can do no wrong in their eyes.
Toyota Recalls 533,000 Vehicles DETROIT -- Toyota has launched a recall of 533,000 trucks and SUVs, including ... between Big Three-made product and Asian automakers, Toyota somehow manages ...brandweek.com/bw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003535184&... - 49k - Cached Bring Em On In!...Again?: Toyota Recalls 220,000 Highlander and Rav4 ...
Toyota Motor Corp. said it would recall more than 200,000 ... big they always lose quality and I would say we can expect more recalls from Toyota. ...autospies.com/news/Bring-Em-On-In-Again-Toyota-Recalls-220-000-High... - 107k - Cached
Toyota Recalls Mounting - The Car Connection Company expects big revenue increase this year. ... also is continuing its review of Toyota's recall of 775,000 Tundras and is also ...thecarconnection.com/.../Toyota_Recalls_Mounting.S175.A10753.html - 60k - Cached
In the United States, Toyota's largest market, the number of vehicles recalled soared to 2.2 million last year. That was double the number of vehicles recalled in 2004, and more than 10 times the 200,000 cars it recalled in 2003, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
I'm sure that feature will be appreciated by those who tow, unfortunately the car mags rarely do. Even then, they have SUVs in their fleet and use those.
With a 3500lb trailer and, say, 350 lbs on the tongue, I'm sure you would appreciate that self-leveling feature.
I agree that two decades ago the difference was significant, i.e. several defects per vehicle better, but nowadays the differences amount to small fractions of problems per car.
I don't agree that recalls mean Toyota is "slipping badly", though, as they still have the lowest warranty costs per vehicle in the business.
Most importantly - none of those recalls affect the Sienna.
Comments
I didn't quite say that, I said that not having enough HP means you will struggle up steep inclines when you have a lot of weight in the car.
You won't make it up the hill at 80 with less than 200hp carrying a 1200 lb payload, you may not be able to hold 55mph.
More HP is better IF the new engine can obtain the same efficiency as the one it replaced. The 3.5l in the Sienna did that, as it has the same efficiency as the 3.3l. It even beats the 3.0l that came before. 266hp vs. 190hp and it's more fuel efficient!
Reply to post 247 by dennis: yes, plenty of competitors have backup cameras, the Ody I test drove had one and I was able to sample it.
Reply to post 248 by marine2: I did list the Dodge features I knew off the top of my head, and you added a few to my list. But half the stuff you mentioned I have in my Sienna, and it's a pretty basic model.
Maybe it's time to update my list, I'll try to do that.
It might be useful for us to list what is unique about each of these 3 vans. I'll start, please feel free to add things I forgot to mention.
Now let's update the list:
Dodge has Stow-n-Go, Swivel-n-Go, self-leveling shocks, 2 screen Sat TV, power folding 3rd row, 6 speed auto, lifetime powertrain warranty, class-leading torque, knee air bags, battery saver, AC power, adjustable pedals, integrated booster, LED lighting, flashlight, umbrella holder, flex-fuel, myGig, remote start.
Honda has VCM, rear mutli-link suspension and run-flats. Help me out Honda owners because I know there are more! Edit: add voice recognition on the NAV and power adjustable pedals, AC outlet (note: all 3 have this!).
Toyota has power folding 3rd row, all-wheel drive, HIDs, run-flats, power 3rd row vent windows, 3rd row that can tailgate, 8 seat model, Bluetooth, Laser Adaptive Cruise Control, tow prep package standard, turn signal in the mirrors, telescoping wheel, auto express button moonroof, auto dimming driver's side mirror, fold flat passenger seat, 2 in glass antennae, 2 115 power outlets, battery saver, and class leading power.
Same rules as last time: let me know what I missed.
1 - People here seem very quiet on the Kia/Hyundai, is this just a reluctance re: a new line that hasn't proven its worth? I have read lots of good safety/cost reviews of both of them.
2 - I am frustrated by automotive reviewers who review only mid-level or totally decked-out vehicles. I don't care about moon roofs, heated seats, cup holders, or what the top of the line engine does. I want to know how the basic models stack up against each other, I am not looking to spend as much as I can, I am looking to spend as little as I have to.
3 - Sorry if I missed it, but I now do not understand the general difference between the Dodge GC line and the Chrysler T&C - I thought the T&C was the upscale line, but with things I have seen here I am now not so sure. What is the rationale/difference between the two lines?
4 - I am a newby at buying a new vehicle - let's say I must buy one by February of next year - any insight on when the best time to buy on 08 model would be? Or is it all the same until we get to Fall 09?
5 - Fellow Toronto-area folk, I have heard Toyota dealers have high enough demand that they are not overly accomodating on the Sienna $ - anyone have personal experience with this?
6 - Last but not least, when I look at the online stock of my Dodge dealer, they seem to have an awful lot of 07 minivans left. What do people here think - go for a discounted 07, or a new 08 GC? I am a little worried that so many 07 GCs are left - I can't find any 07 Sienna's at local dealers. And most positive reviews I've read of GC deal with the 08 model, not the 07s.
If the old engine already had enough HP for it's intended use, then if the engine is more efficient it should keep the HP the same but increase the fuel efficiency because better MPG is always better, while more HP at the expense of MPG is always worse if there already was enough HP to do the job.
Tall gearing has the same effect as using a smaller engine. The bigger engine turns fewer RPMs and uses the same amount (or even less) fuel. Yet you have the power for the times when you need it, the transmission can just kick down.
Their strategy worked. I've twice averaged 30.6 mpg driving to the beach, about a 3 hour trip.
That's with 5 people, luggage, and a dog, going 65-75 mph. I could do better at 55mph with an empty van.
In fact, in my opinion the base vans from Hyundai and Kia represent the best value, because at those prices they make no excuses whatsoever.
By that I mean material quality that you might complain about on a $28k van are perfectly fine at $19,800, which was the street price for a Hyundai Entourage GLS last time I checked.
I drove a more loaded up one, and felt that for mid 20s pricing I wanted a nicer environment.
I shopped here: www.fitzmall.com
My concerns:
* at the time, Kia/Hyundai had not yet sorted out a tire balance issue, now there is a TSB
* unproven reliability, though it looks promising
* poor resale still plagues Hyundai (1 star ALG)
* wife still felt Hyundai's image was not there yet
I didn't care about image, but the Sienna has 5 star resale and a nicer interior, so we spent a bit more and have no regrets.
If my budget were $20k there might be an Entourage in my driveway, though.
The Chrysler is the upscale line. You'll get a little upgrade finish, like wood grain look dash, a softer ride, different wheels and a bit more chrome. But everything else about the two makes is pretty much the same.
Difference between 07-08 Dodge/Chrysler is new look compared to old. You can get the life time warranty on both and there should be some great discounts on the 07.
Amazing to see such opposite opinions & experiences.
Do you know anyone with a 2007 Quest though? Supposedly they made major improvements with the 2007 and addressed many of the issues you've experienced.
When looking at minivans a few years ago, I was told by a Toyota salesman that the power sliding door was the cause of 99 % of Sienna problems. Fortunately, my 06 Sienna does NOT have the driver's side power sliding door that is the subject of this Toyota Sienna Defect. :shades:
Will Toyota step up and offer a recall to fix this major problem? :confuse:
$39175 vs $42K+. Is the T&C worth that much more? Doesn't the Sienna have higher quality materials inside?
For $3K I could still have $ left over after buying a computer w/ more than 20 gig, an ipod,dvd player, snack trays and more than 1 flashlight, extended warranty. Don't really need dvd's, but nice to have for the rare occasion and don't need SAT TV w/ just 3 channels for a monthly fee after 1 yr. So which is a better vehicle as far as driving, comfort, etc. Is the T&C worth $3K more so my passenger has more power seat adjustments and the 2nd row passengers can heat up their seats when it's cold? Or paying more because it looks different....etc. Which has the better sounded stereo? That's important to me. Guess I should go test drive a 2008 Sienna.
$39175 vs $42K+. Is the T&C worth that much more? Doesn't the Sienna have higher quality materials inside?
Yes, but the Chrysler will probably be discounted and the Toyota won't. So chances you'll pay more for the Sienna and not get nearly as much on it. The leather on the Chrysler has been upgraded. The main difference inside, is the plastic look. One is softer and rounded. the other is more squared off and harder. Both look nice.
So which is a better vehicle as far as driving, comfort, etc. Is the T&C worth $3K more so my passenger has more power seat adjustments and the 2nd row passengers can heat up their seats when it's cold? Or paying more because it looks different....etc. Which has the better sounded stereo? That's important to me. Guess I should go test drive a 2008 Sienna.
I don't know which has the better sound system. I do know Chrysler has a 506 watt 7.1 surround system with subwoofer. What does the Toyota and Honda have?
Funny, before Chrysler came out with all this stuff on their van, Toyota and Honda owners were saying they got them because of all the goodies and safety features they had that Chrysler didn't. The inside of Chrysler was to bland. The 1.7 second advantage Honda had in the quarter mile made Chrysler vans a dog and unsafe to pull out in traffic. Now Chrysler has put to bed all those concerns and did Toyota and Honda one better and all of a sudden it's who needs all that stuff on their vans? Funny how things change.
On the way home from Sam's, I stopped at a Chrysler dealer and test drove my first 08 T&C limited today. Here's my impressions:
1) OMG is it fast, compared to my 2005 3.8. Shifts were smooth too.
2) Was quieter than my 05 I noticed.
3) I think the interior matches anything else on the market. The small graining was uniform from IP to door, it was rich looking and I loved the satin metal inserts.
4) $38,000 - OUCH!!!!!
5) The sales person knew all about it, showing me all the features of MyGig and even loading pics to it!!!
6) Seats were very comfortable, supportive etc.. Although Swivel n Go, did nothing for me. I want/need Stown N Go.
Said he could probably knock a few thousand off?
I can't justify a new minivan when my old one has only 21k miles on it though. I think I'll hang on a few more years here!
To be fair: WHY don't Honda and Toyota make the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger optional on the Odyssey LX and Sienna CE? :confuse:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118911195022019743.html?mod=autos_feature_articl- - es
Before you start calling me all manner of names I am not trying to be negative or positive about the Chrysler vans, just stating a case for NOT using Motorweek as a test standard.
Yet still, 79% of Sienna owners would buy another, compared to only 49% of Caravan owners.
My point is, if you look hard enough you'll find many sites like this for any given vehicle.
I Googled "Dodge AND Caravan AND Lemon" and got 602,000 hits. Given the human life expectancy of a mere 75 years or so, I would die before I finished my research, so I'll pass on any further investigation, but it's fair to say it would not be hard to find one (or 50) similar sites for the Dodge vans.
marine wrote: Chrysler will probably be discounted and the Toyota won't
You mentioned this in the other thread, and I showed how loaded Chryslers in the Mid-Atlantic actually cost $2400 more right now. This is comparing 2008s for both, with no rebates on either, same exact dealer, both no-haggle prices.
Now Chrysler has put to bed all those concerns and did
Toyota andHonda one betterNo sir! Not so fast (pardon the pun). Edmunds has not yet tested the new 3.5l Sienna, which is the quickest van ever tested by many magazines. It is both lighter and more powerful than the Dodge/Chrysler top 4.0l engine. I'm willing to wager the Toyota is still quicker - some reviews have 0-60 in the high 6s, the slowest times I've seen was 7.8 seconds to 60. So even the slowest time for a Sienna beats Edmunds' 4.0l T&C.
Toyota and Honda owners were saying they got them because of all the goodies and safety features they had that Chrysler didn't
I respectually disagree. When I did my research in shopping for a minivan that's not at all the impression you got from the Ody/Sienna threads.
The Honda Ody threads focus mostly on the handling. Sure, some people here and there will mention their favorite feature, but the bottom line that made the Ody stand out was that it handled most like a car.
If you go to the Sienna threads and ask why they got it, the two things that come up consistently are reliability and space. It's the only van with 8 comfortable seats, and many owners are on their 3rd (or 10th) Toyota.
Safety features? No way, Sienna didn't even make VSC standard until 2008! How could they be bragging about that? :confuse:
I will say this - I am seeing a lot of passion from Dodge owners, and I respect that a lot more than any talk of 0-60 times. :shades:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Toyota+Honda+Lemon&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&start=90&sa=N
Thanks for showing us that Toyota and Honda are NOT as good as CR, Edmunds, and some Car Space posters would lead us to believe. :sick:
Gotta have the AND in there, otherwise you're hitting all Honda and all Toyota and all Lemon related sites.
Toyota AND Sienna AND Lemon got 358,000 hits.
Honda AND Odyssey AND Lemon got 473,000 hits.
Try again.
Honda AND Odyssey AND Lemon got 473,000 hits.
Chrysler looks pretty good when you consider how many more million minivans they've built than Honda and Toyota.
If this has been posted already, i apologize. There were over 230 new posts in this forum since my last visit - too many to go through all of them!
Chrysler AND Town & Country AND Lemon
got another 557,000 hits. Over a million combined.
My point was, you can't point to one web site and conclude a certain vehicle is poor.
Surely many of those 557k sites are disgruntled owners and the sites themselves aren't of much merit.
Googling proves nothing guys...
I brought this up, remember, when hansienna offered up a link to one single web site relating to unhappy van owners.
My point then, and now, reiterated by thegraduate, is that a bunch of web sites don't really prove anything. The data they are gathering is not scientific.
The millions of web sites I Googled just goes to show, anyone can do it, i.e. put up a web site to whine about something.
I think I can understand that. While I love my 2005 DGC. The outside is as nice as any of them. Up until the 2008, the inside of the Dodge/Chrysler's were very bland and for years, they didn't do anything to dress them up. My Brother's 1999 Plymouth minivan looks much like my 2005 inside. That has to be a turn off to anyone buying a new one. I know I kept a Ford Ranger for 11 years and went to buy a new one and the inside was much like my old one. Instead I bought a Dodge Dakota.
The Honda Ody threads focus mostly on the handling. Sure, some people here and there will mention their favorite feature, but the bottom line that made the Ody stand out was that it handled most like a car.
One thing they have said about the Chrysler minivans from the first year they ever made them, was they drove like a car.
No sir! Not so fast (pardon the pun). Edmunds has not yet tested the new 3.5l Sienna, which is the quickest van ever tested by many magazines. It is both lighter and more powerful than the Dodge/Chrysler top 4.0l engine. I'm willing to wager the Toyota is still quicker - some reviews have 0-60 in the high 6s, the slowest times I've seen was 7.8 seconds to 60. So even the slowest time for a Sienna beats Edmunds' 4.0l T&C.
Are we to buy a minivan for speed? I mean they're not race cars. The 4.1 is faster than the 3.8 and the 3.8 was only 1.7 sec. slower than the Honda in the quarter mile. My 3.8 has all the horses I need. How fast it was, wasn't even a consideration. Having enough speed to climb a mountain and to merge onto the freeway easily enough was and it did both quite well.
I think with the new minivans, you'll always find one that will do somethings better than the other in all the makes. So when you pick one, you have to know what you want and need. I wouldn't buy a Chrysler minivan if I needed to carry eight people at times. Some wouldn't buy a Honda or Toyota if your going to carry a lot of stuff, as I doubt you'd want to haul seats in and out. If you don't have a few kids, Chrysler's television or duel individual DVD's wouldn't interest you. But if you like to load your own music and pictures on My Gig, Chrysler might be your choice.
My self, I like to buy American owned and made when ever possible. It keeps money here to help create jobs for other Americans. Although my wife loved the dash in the Honda Civic, over the Ford Focus, she won out. I wanted the Dodge because of the stow-n-go. I have had trucks for years and saw how much a minivan could hold when my Brother and I moved my Sister and he used his minivan and I used my truck. He was getting more in than I was. I just didn't like having to take out and put back his heavy seats. So a lot depends on what you want and how you feel.
Yet still, 79% of Sienna owners would buy another, compared to only 49% of Caravan owners.
Or maybe Sienna owners aren't even willing to look at other vehicles? Maybe Caravan owners are smarter shoppers who like to look around and compare, while Sienna owners don't even consider anything else based on the other reviewers. I've heard many folks say that "I'd never buy a Dodge because they're unreliable." or "I'd never buy a Ford because they're junk" but then I've never heard anyone say "I'd never buy a Toyota because they're junk" True or not, it's the perception for many.
If buyers only want Toyota, and won't consider another brand, it's likely due to a good experience with the product in that past, and that would have been earned.
But remember, they asked people if they could go back, would they buy the same van again, so very few Sienna buyers felt buyer's remorse, i.e. they were happy with their decision after the purchase.
Any how, one would expect Dodge's numbers to improve substantially given the significant update.
Vans are not for speed, but someone mentioned the Dodge was the quickest, and I don't believe it is. I was correcting them. I didn't bring up speed as a high priority.
Given the high payloads these are rated to carry, however, I do think that having abundant power is important.
I'm a Brazilian citizen so the "Made in America" tag doesn't mean much to me, but the Sienna is built by Hoosiers, FWIW.
I guess I should buy a Mini Cooper, because the engines are made in Brazil. :shades:
http://www.allpar.com/reviews/2008/minivans.html
"If you’re in the market for a minivan now, the Town & Country Limited provides an incredible set of options, and is nicer to drive than the Toyota Sienna, and more comfortable than the Honda Odyssey; reliability rankings generally put the Chrysler and Honda together, in the “average” category, but the new “lifetime” powertrain warranty might help nervous prospects to give some more credence to the Chrysler. Either way, this generation once again leapfrogs the competition - and perhaps Chrysler will surprise us again in a couple of years, instead of making us wait until 2012. "
I really liked the detail they got into, such as lighting of controls and storage like map pockets. Pictures were great too, not the typical OEM provided marketing pics.
The review actually seems pretty balanced, though, all things considered. They actually found it less nimble than the outgoing 2007s. Ride is better, though, and it's more quiet.
Sounds like T&C will chase the Sienna (quiet, ride-biased), while Dodge goes Honda hunting (handling).
While backing up "yellow and red LED lights that can be seen in the rear-view mirror" - cool.
Soft table is "not useful as an adult work table", but that's gotta be because they were concerned about it becoming a projectile in a crash. So this makes sense.
Why are the door pockets so shallow? And how 'bout a bottle holder, or is that just not shown in their picture?
The green lighting is pimp! Can you turn them off so the kids can sleep? (Yes, answered later in the article)
D-pillar is wide for that power hatch, so I wonder if that affects visibility. They have 3 kinds of backup assistance so you're probably fine there.
Bummer they didn't test a model with NAV to comment on its operation.
The Swivel seats look *much* nicer than the Stowable ones.
They should just make 1st gear taller, that would fix the tire squeel and probably help EPA city mileage, too.
"We have over 1,300 pages! Please use the menus or search!"
I sat in a 2007 Odyssey Touring yesterday, and ALL seats were MUCH more comfortable than any of the dozens of T&C I have ever sat in....including more than one T&C Limited. The severe tilt of the 3rd row seat bottom of ALL Chrysler Stow 'N Go (and now also Swivel 'N Go) makes the 3rd row seat much less comfortable than either the Odyssey or Sienna 3rd row seats.
Then just look for the 2008 minivan info.
Has anyone seen a 2008 Sienna if they have made any changes to the design? I am gun shy of them. I plan on will getting mine fixed and looking at the Honda or Chrysler...
Well for a long time, vehicles like the Toyota did have a big advantage over American vehicles. But that advantage is pretty much gone. American vehicles are rated better than European in quality and dependability and I think close to par with Asian vehicles. Toyota has sliped badly in the last few years, although you would never know it by reading Consumers Report. They still can do no wrong in their eyes.
Toyota Recalls 533,000 Vehicles
DETROIT -- Toyota has launched a recall of 533,000 trucks and SUVs, including ... between Big Three-made product and Asian automakers, Toyota somehow manages ...brandweek.com/bw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003535184&... - 49k - Cached
Bring Em On In!...Again?: Toyota Recalls 220,000 Highlander and Rav4 ...
Toyota Motor Corp. said it would recall more than 200,000 ... big they always lose quality and I would say we can expect more recalls from Toyota. ...autospies.com/news/Bring-Em-On-In-Again-Toyota-Recalls-220-000-High... - 107k - Cached
Toyota Recalls Mounting - The Car Connection
Company expects big revenue increase this year. ... also is continuing its review of Toyota's recall of 775,000 Tundras and is also ...thecarconnection.com/.../Toyota_Recalls_Mounting.S175.A10753.html - 60k - Cached
In the United States, Toyota's largest market, the number of vehicles recalled soared to 2.2 million last year. That was double the number of vehicles recalled in 2004, and more than 10 times the 200,000 cars it recalled in 2003, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
With a 3500lb trailer and, say, 350 lbs on the tongue, I'm sure you would appreciate that self-leveling feature.
I don't agree that recalls mean Toyota is "slipping badly", though, as they still have the lowest warranty costs per vehicle in the business.
Most importantly - none of those recalls affect the Sienna.