Half-ton Pickups - The full field

drfill

If the lesson is over, hopefully you've learned something!

The final drive ratios and gearing are factors, but far from the final chapter in the story of fuel economy.

The chances of a Tundra driver with a 6-speed and a Silvy driver with a 4-speed getting the same economy are slim, factoring in vehicle weight, power/torque curves, engine technology available, aerodynamic drag, driving conditions, driver input, road conditions, drivetrain applications, payload/towing usage, etc.

Maybe you should tell me you want a 4-speed instead and be done with it.

The comparison does mean zip, because you are better off with the 6-speed for both acceleration and/or economy purposes, depending on your needs, if you are of normal intellect.

The fantasy island you live in, where every factor will be equal between two unequal trucks, is ready for YouTube, but not a serious discussion.

If you want 4-speeds please, take the 4-speed! Just don't advertise it as something of any particular value against a better tranny.

I'm trying to give you some credit here..... :confuse:

DrFill

dennisplus

:surprise: Hey doctor. Who do you think you are. Even the host of this disscusion said gear ratios have a lot to do with it. It looks like you just base your info on what your buddies at the dealership say. LEARN SOMETHING! Doctor? I think not.

drfill

Or read much period, this being the 3rd time I've posted this, I am not a car salesman.

And, to repeat, no two trucks are alike, or will be treated alike. Therefore gear ratios are a factor, but not the final factor, in acceleration and/or economy.

If you want a 4-speed over a 6-speed in your vehicle, raise your hand and be counted.

DrFill

obyone

" I am not a car salesman. "

Ooooooook if you say so.....seriously doubt anyone will believe you. Oh that's right you're a TOYOTA SALESPERSON.... :P

12ozcurls

Toyota vs. Nissan vs. Ford vs. Dodge..bla bla bla....who cares, everyone knows, lifted CHEVY'S get the girls... :shades:

anythingbuttoy

Yeah, but you know what they say about guys who lift their trucks..... :shades:

toykicks

lol i love edmunds... So many car enthusiasts..

Well ok lets see doesnt the chevy silverado 5.3 have cylinder deactivation of some sort? like dodge? Toyota doesnt have this on their 380hp tundra and gets the same or better mpg towing or not towing then a 5.3 vortec with 4.10 gears. Gears do matter but so does the engine .

I would like to see GM put out their direct injected engines out already to see how they line up against toyotas direct injected. I dont expect much from toyotas specs for the 5.7 direct injected landcruiser since they are sand baggers. It'll be an interesting match when ford and dodge come out with their new redesigned 1/2 tons :P

Cant wait for SEMA either

anythingbuttoy

"If you want 4-speeds please, take the 4-speed! Just don't advertise it as something of any particular value against a better tranny."

Better tranny? Why, beacuse it has 2 more gears? Well, maybe if the reliability was there too, but since it's NOT, then I'd say the proven reliable 4 spd is the "better" tranny. You may want to spend some time over at TS convincing all of the several posters/owners who have had their 6 spds replaced, some more than once, and others with problematic replacements. Good luck!!!

Let me guess, your dealership has not seen any of these failed trannys yet have they?

1offroader

OK, so are you a "Toyota Salesperson"? Or a "Toyota Motors Sales Consultant"? Do you now, or have you ever, sold Toyota vehicles?

Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion. Especially if you're a car salesman.

1offroader

12ozcurls

um...that they like to go offroad? oh and they get the chicks..

toykicks

Theres some places where lifted trucks are as played out as hondas with fart cans.

hmmm i never knew girls go for lifted GM trucks so maybe theres hope for us ugly fat bald looking guys lol i'm going to lift mine 15 inches what the hell lets do 20 just to play it safe... j/k :P

The higher the Sexier she gets. oh yeah Dont forget the viagra stickers :P

12ozcurls

well now you know...and now you can go get urself a real truck and hell, who knows maybe you'll actually use it for its intended purpose?

drfill

Do I get tired of being right. :surprise:

DrFill

obyone

You mean about the Tundra having the same frame as the F250 SD?

bristol2

I hate to interrupt you guys telling each other their truck sucks but.....

Does anyone on this thread have any insight into which manufacturers are bringing diesel engines to their light-duty trucks and when?

anythingbuttoy

GM will have the 4.5L Duramax in late 2009 (2010 MY). Can't speak for the others.

anythingbuttoy

Yeah, about as tired as we are of hearing how you THINK you are always right, but never are.

Why do you keep dodging 1offroader's question as to what you do for a living, if your not a "car salesman"??? Maybe because you are just a lot-boy? "Yo Doc, did you get the cobwebs off the Tundra's yet?" "Yes, sir, right away sir"....LOL

KCRam

Dodge will introduce a light-duty Cummins in the redesigned Ram 1500 in late 2009/early 2010.

kcram - Pickups Host

drfill

Buttoy, Some people can work.....Without kneepads.

May explain your, and others', preoccupation with me.

DrFill

anythingbuttoy

So you really are a car salesman then. Got it!

1offroader

All,

Every year, there is a poll published that ranks jobs in terms of overall respect by the public. Typically, scientists, engineers, doctors rank very high. And every year, politicians, lawyers rank lowest. And who ranks lowest of all EVERY YEAR??? Car salesmen (aka "sales consultants"), that's who! No kidding! Doubt it? Google it!

So, let's not rag too badly on the car salesmen of the world. They have a heavy burden to bear, right from the git go. Hey, it's a sucky job, and no one likes them, but someone's got to do it. Like taking out the trash, & cleaning up after the dog .....

1offroader

obyone

Not to take us too far off topic but I'm curious as to why would anyone want a diesel in a half ton truck? There are costs associated with a diesel one being the upfront purchase cost to justify whatever mileage increase. There was a time where diesel was a lot cheaper at the pump but that no longer applies.

I can understand having a diesel in a one ton truck but in a half ton I'm kind of at a loss as the gain in mpg would be hard to justify against the cost of a diesel plus the frame limitations in a half ton.

Sorry for the off topic post.

I know a few car salespersons that make over a $100K a year though that is not the norm. I admit it is a tough profession and wouldn't care to pursue it as a career. I also noticed that they are all thick skinned like some that post here..... :P

paisan

Diesel here in NY/NJ is generally .20-.30 cheaper than Gasoline. I like the idea of diesel and would pick one up in a heartbeat if they were more widespread

-mike

bristol2

Good question (and surely not off-topic since this thread is mostly just 4 guys insulting each other).

It's all about mpg. I put on ~25k miles per year for my job. Doing that at 28 mpg instead of 19-22mpg makes a huge difference to me. Also, I plan on keeping a truck for about 8 years, so at 25k miles per year for 8 years that puts 200k on the engine and I'm not sure that I trust a gas engine to do that with much confidence.

Finally, why not get more torque out of a truck?
Truck drivers in this country tend to be very conservative with truck capacity. In the rest of the world truck users would consider our 1/2 tons the heaviest duty available. It always surprises me to see a 3/4 ton or 1 ton being used to pull a boat for instance. With the exception of some farming and the guys who haul heavy construction equipment, 99% of truck buyers have more frame than they will ever need.
I am not in any kind of heavy construction so I wouldn't be pulling 12k plus pound trailers so the frame limits (that I really do think are over-stated) would not impact me.

Almost forgot, last point is that a diesel would open the opportunity for bio-diesel which I think is the only feasible way we are going to get out from under wars in the Middle East. Let those guys blow each other up if we can turn around waste product and algae into diesel!

obyone

I'll be looking for a new truck in a couple years and will keep that in mind. Only problem here diesel is $.20-.30 higher than regular.

1offroader

bristol2 - good points, you hit the nail on the head. The benefit of diesel is mpg and longer engine life due to the HD nature of diesel engines generally, and the fact that they turn very low rpm, reducing wear and tear over the long run. I don't buy a truck to run 1/4 miles, or 0-60 times. That's juvenile stuff, outgrew that about 30 years ago (funny how some people never grow up). I want my truck to get decent mileage, be reliable, comfortable, and to take me and my family & friends and our stuff camping and hunting and fishing. I doubt I'll ever own a 10K lb. trailer, or yacht. And if I do, I'll be getting a 1-ton to drag it.

1offroader

obyone

Wow!!

12ozcurls

hahahaaha....figures...also interesting is the link at the bottom of the page suggesting former Toyota president jim press worked for them for 30 years and never owned a Toyota or Lexus...

1offroader

LOL on both counts!!!

Amazing, the Big Kahuna Toyota guy never owned one. And he's a serious motor head. What does that say? He was pullin' down, what, maybe $3-5 mil a year at Toyota and couldn't even pop for a lousy $20K to buy a Camry or something? Even just to support his troops??? He spent more that that on lunches every year!

Hey, but seriously, give the Toyota guys some credit. They know a great truck when they see it. Now, all they need to do is build one.

New Toyota motto: "If you need a set of wheels, give Tundra a look. If you need a truck to do some work, don't do what we say, do what we do".

1offroader

gotoyota

Try to hold back your excitement, 12oz'er. The article simply says he never owned a Toyota or Lexus. It also says the only vehicle he owns is a Yamaha motorcycle, and I'm sure he doesn't ride that all the time. You guys crack me up - you'll grasp at anything. As an exec, you can bet your curls he drove a Toyota or Lexus as part of his compensation package. If he drove anything but a Toyota/Lexus while he was with Toyota, it would have received all kinds of airtime and this would not be the first time you would have heard about it, as seems to be the case. As for the Silverado towing the Toyota trailer, I guess it looks funny, but I don't see the big surprise here. The Tundra is only a half ton, as y'all are so fond of pointing out.

By the way, I've found several articles about a 750 lb/ft Tundra HD coming as an '09-'10 model.

gotoyota

Actually, Toyota Exec's are compensated much less than execs at other automakers. Money talks - if you read the articles that are out there, there are several references to the fact that Cerberus (the owners of Chrysler) went after Press HARD and offered a huge raise. They also successfully courted and won the heart (and wallet) of the VP of marketing (I think) from Lexus. It's not because Toyota is a sinking ship, it's about the MONEY. It's a little disappointing in a way, because I like Jim Press a lot and think he did a lot of good for Toyota. Hopefully he will have the same lattitude at Chrysler and be able to drive some healthy changes, starting with the UGLY designs of most of their new cars (except the 300).

KCRam

...for what executives drive and get paid... head to the Automotive News and Views Board for that

kcram - Pickups Host

kdhspyder

Just remember Toyota is the leader in recalls right now. On the famous Toyota sludge you're looking at over 2.2 million vehicles.

Actually both references are false but let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument. Carry on.

kdhspyder

The article simply says he never owned a Toyota or Lexus. It also says the only vehicle he owns is a Yamaha motorcycle, and I'm sure he doesn't ride that all the time. You guys crack me up - you'll grasp at anything. As an exec, you can bet your curls he drove a Toyota or Lexus as part of his compensation package

He drove a Tacoma DblCab before he moved to NYC Corporate. At that time he switched to a Hybrid Camry

12ozcurls

hehe...geeze you toyota guys are sens-a-tive...but anyway this back and forth is gettin boring. anyone got any weekend warrior stories?

kdhspyder

Just facts.. it keeps the emotional outbursts in check and strangles exageration.

kdhspyder

F-Series .. 56100 .. 537,200 ( 616,800 ) - 12.9%
Silverado.. 56900 .. 518,700 ( 525,200 ) - 1.2%
Ram........ 30100 .. 277,000 ( 275,200 ) + 1.0%
Sierra...... 18400 .. 157,200 ( 157,700 ) - 1.6%
Tundra..... 19600 .. 144,500 ( 91,500 ) + 57.9%
Titan......... 5200 .... 51,000 ( 56,300 ) - 9.4%

The Silverado outsells the F-Seris this month but trails slightly for the year.
The Tundra outsells the Sierra this month but trails slightly for the year.

Overall the Tundra has gained 53,000 units but despite that the market has lost 39,000 units. It's mostly due to the retraction of Ford in the marketplace. That's a possible win/win situation???

Ford closed the Norfolk assembly plant and reduced it's costs dramatically at the cost of some sales. Those buyers seem to have migrated mostly to Toyota at a large financial windfall ( $500 million? ).

anythingbuttoy

This is more accurate:

GMT800(classic)/GMT900 Sales: Sept. 75,300, YTD 682,400

How many "new" Tundra's have been sold YTD? I'm assuming the numbers you posted include all Tundra's sold this year, correct?

drfill

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gm- - news/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=74&docid=40014

GM says they sold 52k in Sept, still down 2% YTD.

The 56k includes Avalanche, a seperate model line.

The 75k counts the Avalanche and GMC Sierra, a different marque altogether. :confuse:

DrFill

anythingbuttoy

Spin it how you want Doc, the Silvy, Av and Sierra are ALL GM full size trucks. Just because Toyota only offers ONE truck, why should we only count ONE GM model? i.e. Tell me, doc, what truck do you suppose a Sierra buyer would buy if GM only had the Silvy?

Any way you spin it though, 19K is still paultry in comparison.

drfill

But I can't spin like you. Olay! :P

DrFill

kdhspyder

Where did you get those screwy figures from? They are not in GM's press release. Now the problem for GM is those figures I posted ( Yes Dr they do include the Avalanche ) also include all the GMT800's ( Classic ) sold since the beginning of the year.

This means that the GMT800's last year really kicked the hell out of the brand spanking new GMT900's. What is it about the new models that the buyers don't like?

To get the sales of the 'New' Tundra you'd have to deduct Jan 07 sales and at least half of Feb 07 sales to get an accurate estimate. There were a few isolated 'Old' models left in March.

This is even more important, in the mid-priced retail buyer segment which is the only small niche Toyota is really competing they may be way ahead of both the Ram and the Sierra and near the two biggies. Choosing the ground on which you want to do battle is often the first step to victory.

It's also the most lucrative segment so that's the one to win.

KCRam

...are posted here, every month: Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer??

The Avalanche is an SUV and shares very little with the Silverado besides the 4 doors and windshield... it's a Suburban with its rear roof removed.

kcram - Pickups Host

anythingbuttoy

The Avalanche is just as much Pick-up as it is SUV, it has a BOX!!! And again, if the Av and Sierra buyers did not have these vehicles to choose from, which truck would they have bought? That is why it is more fair/accurate to include these buyers than to not include them. If Toyota offered more than just ONE option in LD trucks, they would most certainly have less Tundra sales as well. Think about it!!!

kdhspyder

GM classifies and reports it as a 'full sized pickup' so just to keep consistent with the published stats I go with the Silvy and Av together.

drfill

So I do as well.

Nobody cares what somebody would've, could've, should've bought. There is a reason why they bought one model over another, or over another marque.

DrFill

1offroader

An article in the FoxNews business section says Sept. 2007 Toyota truck sales are down 5.7% from Sept. 2006, and Toyota car sales are down 3.5% from Sept. 2006, which was their best month ever. Ford pickups are down a whopping 21% from last Sept.

Any sales comparison of the new Tundra vs. the old Tundra is like saying we sold more raisins this year than we sold cherries last year. Next year's Tundra sales figures will be much more meaningful.

However, I think those figures indicate that sales overall of gas guzzling trucks is down. The economy is slowing (witness Fed Chariman Bernanke's recent loosening of the money supply), and gas prices have risen from last year.

Well Duh.

1offroader

kdhspyder

'Trucks', for reporting purposes, include both pickups ( +19% ), the Sienna ( -29% ) and all the SUVs ( -10% ). In total they were down ~5%.

Link:Sept 07 and YTD sales

It's the SUVs that are taking it in the neck at every vehicle maker. As gas stays at about $3 a gallon and most SUVs cost $30000 - $50000 this segment of 'trucks' is going to drag down the stats of every vehicle maker. This segment may never come back...
..a lot of them are being replaced by crossovers
..if gas goes to $5 a gallon only the filthy rich or those that absolutely need an 8-pass V8 will own them.

Sequoia .... -29% YTD
4Runner .... -17%
Expedition . +18%
Explorer ... -24%
Durango .... -30%
TB / Envoy . -26%
Tah/Yuk .... -10%

Pickup trucks OTOH are pretty stable except for Ford's planned contraction.

drfill

Pickup trucks OTOH are pretty stable except for Ford's planned contraction.

Maybe I missed something, but did Ford plan to lose market share, and then mount a large ad campaign as a defense of their truck's status as #1? I'm confused. :confuse:

DrFill

gdtaliq

I have a 2001 F-250 with the V10. Noticed a clicking on the passenger side of the engine. Found 5 broken (Rusted) manifold studs on that side. Found 4 on drivers side. Only have 50,000 miles on vehicle. Talked with a number of other F- series owners from 1998-2003, with both the 5.4 and V-10. All looked and found same problem. Dealer is pricing the repair at about 500.00 per side, if everything goes well. 1000.00 total. Extreme could be as high as 3000.00, if cab has to be removed. How many other F-series out there have the same problem? So far 100% of the owners I have talked with have the same problem