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We have subsidized the D3 since at least 1963 keeping PU trucks built off shore out of the USA. We did it with a huge tariff. Face it we cannot compete within our own borders with UAW high labor costs. That is the reason for the bankruptcy and gigantic bailouts. Can you give me a country that has spent even close to the nearly $100 billion we have committed to our two auto losers?
The UAW can and will go on strike while they are not under contract.
The UAW did go on strike last year while under contract, conveniently at the only plants building the only vehicles that GM could sell. That was a real help to prevent bankruptcy.
Now would you please give me one instance where the Big Three were given incentives by governments of other nations?
I imagine if GM had fuel efficient vehicles for sale in Germany during their cash for clunkers they were popular. Many Germans opted for Hyundai same as here. If the D3 could build fuel efficient cars with their bloated labor costs I am sure they would sell in other countries.
If you remember that many public funds held D3 Bonds that Barry tossed under the pro union bus. It is the fiduciaries responsibility to guarantee the investments are sound. Many cities and states got greedy like the UAW and ended up losing. Too bad, so sad.
Ignorance abounds here. I am not a union person, nor a person who like unions. However, to put all the blame on the UAW is plane ignorance. The management is also to blame at GM/Chrysler/Ford. They could not and would not adapt to a changing market, or changing consumer desires. I just watched on HBO the last truck, about a plant in Ohio that closed. People, we need to think about the future of this country, get past the finger pointing and figure out how to bring back a good family wage paying job back to America. Over the last 15 - 20 years we have shipped so much wealth and so many jobs overseas at who's benefit? We need to teach the next generation how to spend their money wisely. Vote with YOUR money, demand products and services made here in the USA. Funny how retailers can whine about sales, yet they don't think about where what they are selling is made!~!~. No jobs, no buying power. Doesn't take an economics masters degree to figure this one out.
People, we need to think about the future of this country, get past the finger pointing and figure out how to bring back a good family wage paying job back to America. Over the last 15 - 20 years we have shipped so much wealth and so many jobs overseas at who's benefit? We need to teach the next generation how to spend their money wisely. Vote with YOUR money, demand products and services made here in the USA.
That sure sounds nice. Problem is it is WRONG. People in this country have shown that they will buy the BEST products, the BEST deals. So if we want jobs in this country we had better figure out how to compete. We need to be smarter, not whiners. We also need to abolish rules that cause Ford to put its most modern plant in BRAZIL instead of the US. If we fail to change then we have done it to ourselves.
sorry to have to point this out, but this is plain ignorant.
Ignorance abounds here. I am not a union person, nor a person who like unions. However, to put all the blame on the UAW is plane ignorance.
A plane is what I used to work on at the Boeing Everett Division. We made 747's, 767's and 777's while I was still there. An ignorant, money-grubbing, way overly conservative bunch of idiots in grey suits decided that 40,000 of us would have to be laid off. So much for showing loyalty to employees that busted their butts for the Company. In overly stressful working conditions most of the time. Under pressure to meet deadlines. Without very much complaining, I'd be lying if I tried to say we never complained.
But, all is not lost, I think you meant to say plain ignorance.
And, in this case, gagrice and most of us regulars on here are right, the UAW's have de-railed the U.S. auto industry with their ignorant greed. The union Heads still get their money, right.
Unions don't have to exist. I work now in a hospital and no unions exist. We get good pay and benefits, too. Both imagine and fancy that. It can happen to you.
We need to teach the next generation how to spend their money wisely. Vote with YOUR money, demand products and services made here in the USA.
I DO spend MY money wisely- and I will always value quality over price. If the best product is made in the USA I'll gladly buy it- but I won't accept an inferior product just because it was slapped together in the USA...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
It should be a lesson for everyone. Living up to your income is dangerous. It may have been the American way. It is going to change. The UAW people that were frugal when making the big bucks will do ok when jobs only pay $15 per hour instead of $30. As we have seen the people going into debt based on Overtime income will come crashing back to earth. They may lose some of their toys and many will lose their homes. They have no one to blame but themselves. Being American does not guarantee you a fat paycheck and success. People need to diversify. Get some education in a different field than you are employed in. Then when the mortgage business dries up you can go into another field such as health care. That will be the next likely bubble in the USA.
Wow, that's pretty brutal, going from $100K per year to $8.50 at Macy's. Also shows how those lower-level retail stores haven't kept up with inflation. I used to work part time for Hecht's (taken over by Macy's a few years back) , and they started me off at $6.50 per hour back in August 1991. I got a bump to $7.03 per hour the following summer, and one reason that bump was so high was because they eliminated time and a half for Sundays. I got incremental raises here and there after that, but I think the last raise I got was to $7.83 per hour. That was in the fall of 1995. FOURTEEN years ago!
$8.50 is only aout 8.5% higher than $7.83. However, I'm sure it's a safe bet inflation has gone up a lot more than 8.5% over the course of the last 14 years.
"Ignorance abounds here. I am not a union person, nor a person who like unions. However, to put all the blame on the UAW is plane ignorance. The management is also to blame at GM/Chrysler/Ford. They could not and would not adapt to a changing market, or changing consumer desires. I just watched on HBO the last truck, about a plant in Ohio that closed."...
We all agree that management has a part in this, too...they designed vehicles that no one wanted to buy...but I have this sneaking suspicion that the Big 3 COULD have sold many more cars, if not for the perceived lack of quality or perceived lack of workmanship in the product itself...
Like it or not, many buyers bought imports BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE BETTER MADE WITH A HIGHER LEVEL OF QUALITY...and that I place squarely on the shoulders of the workers...we have repeated this before...doors that do not close or fit right, rattles in the dashboard, uneven spaces where parts like hoods and trunk lids line up with the body, etc....frankly, I think many, not all, UAW folks were just overpaid children thinking they were playing with Lincoln Logs, and threw them together anyway they might fit...the thought of CARING that the final user might think it was junk never dawned on their infantile little minds...
If doors squeak, vehicles rattle, wires are exposed, and something doesn't work right (A/C duct controls don't work, radio does not sit securely in the space) a buyer rightfully assumes that "if this is what I can see, what is wrong that I CAN'T see?"...
Mgmt has its share, but once you are past the overall look of the vehicle, if you like the way it looks, then the rest comes down to quality workmanship, and this is the large part where the UAW falls flat on its face...
Blame the workers, blame the UAW...they drove the Big 3 into the Big 1 (Ford)...if they made their cars with the perceived reputation of quality of Honda or Toyota, I really wonder if they would have gone Chapter 11...and yes, the top mgmt took bonuses they never deserved, but those millions are NOT what drove them into Ch 11, it was the $billions for employees that drove them under...
We are still the worlds number consumer nation. But like cannon3 said folks without good jobs don't have much extra money to fuel economic growth. Fact during contraction, those UAW jobs gone ripple and cost others their jobs. Most of us have homes and the more buyers the higher price those homes will fetch. Simple supply and demand has price as its rationing mechanism.
Fact during contraction, those UAW jobs gone ripple and cost others their jobs.
If you want to preserve those jobs, then the solution is simple: build what we want to buy, build it well & sell it to us for a price that we're willing to pay. Stop whining about "unfair trade practices", roll up your sleeves & get to work.
People in this country have shown that they will buy the BEST products, the BEST deals.
The idea is taught as if were gospel.
AOL is the number one ISP (internet service provider). Ever try to switch? How about you getting that off your computer? Great marketing, you throw millions of CD's into mail boxes and folks will load it. I could go on at the inferior product having the lions share of the market because of brilliant marketing.
Has everyone in America had the pleasure of driving a UAW made Cadillac CTS or STS? There are many reasons for consumers opting for one product/service over another. I can only agree that the more choice, the better for the consumer. However, the consumers are far and few these days. For all of the automakers not just the domestics. For that matter folks are buying generic over brand names. Bad for Pepsico, Coke, P&G......................Prior recessions consumer staples did well compared to the rest of the economy. This time its different. So one might even assume this is closer to a depression.
Internet unsavvy folks may not know the difference between AOL and another ISP, but folks have different opinions about cars...plus, AOL is, I assume, under $50/month, and DSL is DSL and dial-up is dial-up, with little difference between them...cars, OTOH, may be large payments for a long time, offering utility, comfort, convenience, status (to some who care), and pure transportation...comparing the quality of AOL to the quality of a UAW product is not useful, as they have no meaning...if someone is dissatisfied with AOL, they can try any one of other ISPs and, as long as the signal comes thru, nobody really cares...a car, especially a lemon, will affect your brain for 1000 years, as in "I will NEVER own another XXX again, worst car I ever owned...all those payments, and the dealer could never find the rattle, or, the dealer could NEVER line that door up"...
And, of course, ...:):):)...you KNOW why the dealer could never find the rattle or line up the door...those worthless, useless, overpaid, underworked, welfare-entitlement-attitude UAW workers who couldn't competently build a car if it only had 2 pieces...could there be any OTHER reason???...
Foreign gov't industry supports, monopolies, oligopolies, and cartels are only illegal in this country? Sure as there is child and slave labor in China these imperfection are fact to this laissez faire capitalism which only exists in text books/minds of Libertines. Lets get real and see the whole picture. You certainly don't want to awaken to the realization that the rest of the world doesn't play fair and or by rules we hold in high esteem?
You certainly have to accept the UAW as an evolution of American capitalism.
However, the consumers are far and few these days.
Gee, we're the #1 consumer market in the WORLD. We are still tied as the #1 auto market in the world. You are sobbing too soon. It's just competition. The D3 reaped the rewards of 30 years residual sales as the products went to hell. Why is it unfair that it takes the same 30 years for people to believe they have changed?
Ford is doing a good job. Thank god they got a non-car guy in place to really shake things up. Hyundai has really shaken things up. GM is not there yet. Chrysler is hopeless.
Foreign gov't industry supports, monopolies, oligopolies, and cartels are only illegal in this country? Sure as there is child and slave labor in China these imperfection are fact to this laissez faire capitalism which only exists in text books/minds of Libertines.
When you build the best products people will want those. Instead of dwelling on all the unfairness in the world, make the best products. The reason Toyota and Honda have been so successful is that for the mainstream market, they have been the best in most segments.
There is no reason a Ford or a GM cannot be the best. It just takes the management to set that goal and the workers to rally behind that goal. Workers striking the plant of the best sedan a company like GM makes WHILE the company is hemorrhaging money and dying is inexcusable. It confirms the idiocy and the destructiveness of the UAW. THAT is not the fault of foreign monopolies or cartels. Those are just intellectual diversions from the real goal - BUILD THE BEST PRODUCTS.
Has everyone in America had the pleasure of driving a UAW made Cadillac CTS or STS?
Does not appeal to me. However I rented a Chevy Equinox for two weeks in Hawaii and it was a horrible noisy little POC. Did the UAW put it together? There part was the $7 billion spent on gold plated health care by GM. When you are spending more than you make you cut corners. So maybe the Caddy is a decent car. Who cares except for a small handful of diehard Caddy lovers? Mainstream America wants a decent CUV. Sadly GM (Obama Motors) does not build one. Ford builds one, Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Mazda all build one. GM spent all their R&D money on a Ponzi scheme cooked up with the UAW bosses. Wonder how much they got under the table for selling out the workers?
You certainly have to accept the UAW as an evolution of American capitalism.
I accept the UAW as a failed attempt at Communism, by the thug leaders like Walter Reuther. May he RIH. He helped ruin Unions along with thugs like Jimmy Hoffa.
However I rented a Chevy Equinox for two weeks in Hawaii and it was a horrible noisy little POC. Did the UAW put it together?
People point to the CTS, the Malibu as examples that GM has changed - why do people still not like GM? Well in addition to taking tons of our tax money, they have something like 30+ models even after all the trimming, and we are citing maybe 3-5 vehicles as competing in the top of their class! That is NOT a sea change that is needed.
Where are >50% of the GM models that should be competitive with other brands? I dare say Honda and Toyota both compete in >50% of their models. Even Mazda does this. Over 50% of Audi models are highly competitive. Get rid of the junk, GM. Don't just have a few good vehicles. Dump the junk!
Sure as there is child and slave labor in China these imperfection are fact to this laissez faire capitalism which only exists in text books/minds of Libertines.
My family's cars were built in Germany & Japan, so why are you blabbering about "child & slave labor in China" & "Libertines" (whatever they are)?
Why stop there? Why not blame sunspots & male pattern baldness for your misfortunes?
Your posts aren't doing anything to dispel my suspicion that the UAW would rather make excuses than good cars.
In addition, if you are still loyal to GM or C and the UAW as Dallasdude is, you need to check because your screws are not only loose, they have come completely out!
A failed industry proves the UAW evolution was a total failure...the Government acknowledges this and despite that hand out money that will never be repaid.
I have the immense pleasure of driving a Cadillac DTS Performance! I am extremely happy with the car! :shades: We also have a super-reliable Buick LaCrosse and 1989 Cadillac Brougham in our household fleet. :shades:
Slowly, as time progresses, lemko may be the ONLY person who owns a Cadillac, so when we need to go to a museum to see the "ancient" cars of the first decade of the new millenium, we won't go to Henry Ford Museum, we will all go to lemko's house...
lemko, please list your address, and the hours your facility is open for visitors...are cameras allowed, or will the intense flash destroy the UAW paint on your UAW vehicles???... :P
Didn't some of those have a hoary third rate Chinese-built engine?
Yeah, it was either the 3.4 or 3.5 (can't remember which). Either way, IMO both were third rate engines whether they were built in China or the heart of UAW country.
It was probably an 08. Point being I wanted a Trail Blazer and was stuck with a much inferior vehicle. They gave me a big discount for not having my TB there when I arrived. The damage to GM was done. If I ever considered a small CUV I will always remember the Equinox. I think that is the biggest mistake GM makes selling sub par vehicles for the rental trade. How many people rent a Grand Am and drop GM from their list of cars to buy? I rented TBirds from Hertz for my 3 weeks off out of 6 weeks for most of the 1980s. I really liked those years of TBird. When Ford dropped the line and all I could get was the Taurus I switched to Alamo. I rented UAW Built Trail Blazers and liked them for several years. Now they have discontinued one of the few GM products I would rent. Not sure what I will get stuck with on my next time in Hawaii. Maybe Alamo will get smart and buy Fords. As far as the 2010 Equinox. Forget it. Only comes with 4 cylinder and takes more room to turn than a full size Toyota Sequoia. 40 feet to turn in is crazy. What are the GM engineers smoking?
You buy what you choose and I'll do the same. If you choose to blame all of the worlds ills on the UAW, so be it. Your woes won't be gone after the UAW is gone. For decades they have been representing labor now. Perhaps we could blame them, the UAW, for the prior depressions?
Perhaps we can be the financial advisors to the WORLD in this new service economy? We must be the best at that since there isn't any UAW involved in that? How many cars or how expensive a car could have purchased if the wonder boys of Wall Street hadn't kept letting your money ride. You know those who lost millions with Madoff have to be mad at the UAW as well. As they say in Vegas, the comps are over high roller.
Car plants around the world are idle or running below capacity as the industry copes with a slide in sales that sent General Motors Co and Chrysler Group LLC into bankruptcy and has Toyota headed for a record loss this year.
The auto companies that try to copy GM and over pay their workers are dying on the vine. Just like the D3 with their over paid UAW workers. Non Skilled workers making over $15 per hour is a recipe for disaster. Too bad GM management did not have the guts to cut and run in 1998 when the UAW started their downhill slide into oblivion.
Paying a janitor, forklift operator or a line person in a factory $30 an hour is crazy. I can hire skilled plumbers, electricians, carpenters, roofers, painters, brick layers, concrete finishers all self starters without 2000 pages of rules for $20 per hour. That is here in San Diego where we have one of the highest cost of living indexes in the country. And guess what they are tickled to get the work and are on the job on time and sober. Something went wrong with the UAW and now it is on the brink of extinction. The UAW was not a good example to what Unions should be.
Perhaps we can be the financial advisors to the WORLD in this new service economy?
As long as the UAW is involved in financial acumen related to making great cars (as part ownwers), no chance. We don't have to worry about that yet until the UAW pay is again in line with the rest of the economy, now, do we? AFAIC, the cars in the rest of the world track the financial acumen in those economies as opposed to the bankrupt UAW-member economic representation in the US manufacturing system.
I think the financial world has taken a big hit. I believe it was Citi group that laid off 50,000 people. Lemko posted an article about someone in finance going from $130,000 per year to $8.50 per hour at Macy's. The reality of this economy has taken a toll across the board. Why the government felt they should bail out the UAW is suspect in my mind. If anything it should have been the construction industry. That was a much wider loss of jobs than the miniscule auto industry. At most the auto industry represents less than 3% of the workforce.
"The damage to GM was done. If I ever considered a small CUV I will always remember the Equinox. I think that is the biggest mistake GM makes selling sub par vehicles for the rental trade. How many people rent a Grand Am and drop GM from their list of cars to buy?"...
I fail to understand why the line would make rental cars different...or, put another way, maybe rental cars are the UAW assembly workers at their absolute worst...but it does make sense that if you rent a car from a given carmaker, say, GM, and it is absolute junk, it does tend to infect your opinion of the entire line...now, if the rental has 100K miles, maybe not so much, but if the vehicle has under 30K miles, and is falling apart, well, 'nuff said for that carmaker's products...
I don't ever remember renting a car with over 20k miles on it. I doubt they are the rejects from Monday morning UAW hangovers. I just think it is the automakers poor planning and trying to keep volume over quality. I have rented both Malibu and Grand Am cars with less than 10k miles and they had parts rattling and brakes that were noisy.
It all goes back to the Ponzi scheme cooked up by GM management and the UAW to cover retirees. The automaker has to sell so many cars to keep that money rolling in. Then we get a little downturn and the scheme falls apart. Very similar to SS and Medicare that is losing money even with increased SS taxes every year.
left the jetmaker to go head up Ford, he still has to contend with the UAW and their list of rules, and their overly-inflated pay. Eh?
And Ford limped out a profit in 1st Q 2009, didn't they? Ford is doing pretty well, and the fact that Mulally came from Boeing and not automaking no doubt helped him and Ford in this quest, you're right on with that assessment tlong.
I for one would like to see Ford succeed. I have bought several Fords, although GM and Chrysler not so many of them. If both failed I could still wake up tomorrow and get stoked for the Seahawks to dismantle opponent #1 on Sunday. Hopefully Lost Wages, bookies and crooked ref's won't affect this season's Super Bowl.
Talking to my dentist yesterday after he finished his work on my crown about Super Bowl 40 between Seattle and Pittsburgh, and guess what. I didn't lead in with my assessment of the refereeing and he says this.
"Super Bowl 40? That game was rigged. Obviously the Seahawks were the better team. I couldn't believe the calls." Apparently fans watching the Super Bowl in the New England region were throwing food at the TV screen! Come on, give each team a fair chance to win the big Enchilada. Must betting control pro sport outcomes? That is truly pathetic. :sick:
I shook his hand and thanked him. Honest-hearted Americans know that Super Bowl 40 on February 5, 2006, was thrown. If you doubt it, answer me this. Why has the NFL front office banned Super Bowl 40 referees from ever reffing another Super Bowl?
Greed and corruption is alive and well in the U.S. Not only in NFL football but in the UAW's union antics and frantics as well.
Oh, well, I'll just turn up the best rock band ever, Foghat, and drown it all out. Over.
All of your words are so true but it can't last forever. C4C is another scheme that we paid for that will also prove a loss just like the bailout money that will never be returned.
I didn't agree with the BO for the Banks but at least some have paid it back already. Fat Chance GM and C pay it back. In fact, who wants to bet they suck wind again and come crying for more crumbs??
The UAW will continue to shrink away...just like the sales of US cars that are second-rate at best.
no, I wouldn't, either. There have been many a sceptic give their view on Ford's chances of survival. They still owe a lot of money to creditors. Ford struck a deal(pardon the union pun)with the UAW that their management seemed to bless.
The American Workforce! Americans work harder, longer hours and drive an economic engine that is STILL the envy of the world. American workers make it happen every day. To say that its only the UAW is just not true.
The baby boomers are having to face a new reality. Last year, 2008, was supposed to be the year that the first baby boomers turned 62, beginning a retirement frenzy because people could begin to draw on their social security benefits. However, the economy has nosedived, and studies show that many are delaying their retirement by many years. The unfortunate reality is that those who had an investment plan for retirement will now join the millions of other baby boomers who were never able to save and have to work until the grave.
This is a perfect storm. Everything that could go wrong is going wrong. This storm was created by the coordinated effort of big-business and their ‘bought and paid for’ politicians. This was done by the deliberate destruction of defined benefit pension systems and its replacement with the 401(k). Now that the economic crisis has emerged, we're beginning to see just how ruinous the effects are. At the end of September 2008, it was discovered that in the previous year the value of stocks in 401(k) accounts had fallen by nearly $2 trillion with stocks having lost nearly half their value for the year. This is especially devastating since almost one-third of 401(k) participants who are now in their 60s had 80 percent of their money in stocks. People over 60 years of age should have 60 percent of their money in bonds, but investment brokers lured them from safe investments with stories of getting rich with stocks.
The 401(k) was the scam of the century. Corporations offloaded their "burdensome" pensions and used the combined forces of the media and politicians to sell the ruse to the public, to the great benefit of Wall Street. Workers were told that stocks were a sure thing. There were additional factors that pushed people to invest in stocks: interest rates were so low on bonds and other low risk instruments offered only tiny returns; and since employers stopped contributing to retirement funds, a bigger return was required.
Every "safe bet" for investing has been proven unsafe. The recession has left nothing untouched. After the dotcom bubble burst -- taking with it millions of people's 401(k) savings -- the housing market became the place to invest. Now the safest possible investment, too, has turned sour. Millions of people bought very large homes as an investment. They had planned to sell and move into a smaller place once the kids were gone, but now, due to the crash in the housing market, this will not happen for many of them. They are stuck in homes that are too large and expensive to maintain if they retire. So, they must keep working.
U.S. citizens are between a rock and a hard place because corporations have been allowed to move a large part of their companies overseas to take advantage of cheaper labor. And foreign auto companies have moved into the southeast U.S. where labor is cheap and benefits are non-existent. These foreign companies were given huge tax breaks by the state governments basically allowing them to function in this country with little to no tax “burden.” This enabled the corporations to drive down real wages for U.S. workers. At the same time the cost of living rose exponentially, causing most workers to have to spend more of their paychecks to just live. There was little to no money left to save for retirement.
This process is being accelerated by the newest scam of big business: declaring bankruptcy just to destroy pension and healthcare obligations. This destruction of benefits also applies to workers who are already retired because their pensions are slashed in half, forcing them out of retirement at a very old age. The threat of bankruptcy is now used in union contract negotiations to scare workers into concessions, since after achieving bankruptcy labor agreements are torn up and benefits are lost.
Worker benefits were at the center of the debate about whether or not to help the Detroit car companies. The Republicans in Congress, who are mostly corporate politicians, wanted the companies to declare bankruptcy – a proven method to destroy pensions and healthcare benefits. Of course the media, owned by large corporations, also attack the pension and health care benefits of the "spoiled" auto workers. Yet, at the same time, we the people, can only dream of the kind of retirement and health benefits these hypocrites have.
These Congressional Republicans would also like to see the end of Social Security. Just think what would have happened if they had been able to achieve their goal of privatizing Social Security. Everyone under 55 years of age would have been required to put part or all of their Social Security into the stock market. Where would that money be today? Non-existent.
A business going under and closing it’s doors forever is one thing. The corporate strategy of “re-organizing” through the use of bankruptcy is another thing altogether. This tactic will increase in number as the crisis deepens and companies strive to restore profitability by drastically lowering the wages and gutting the benefits of U.S. workers.
Equally important is the emerging struggle for maintaining pensions of public employees, the last stronghold of workers who receive them. Public employees will find their pensions under immense attack as the economic crisis intensifies and government budgets are depleted. Those state workers who have a strong union or professional organizations that work with state legislatures in their name are the ones who still have decent wages, pension, and health benefits – so far.
The ultimate goal of big business and their puppet politicians is to destroy the unions, destroy benefits, and push the wages of U.S. workers down even further so that business can achieve ever higher profits and line the pockets of the wealthy with more and more and more.
A battle must be waged against the destruction of pension and health benefits. It must be done by uniting both seriously determined retired and active workers with new levels of organizing and solidarity. Workers can no longer rely on the promises of Democratic politicians (although if they fail, it won’t be from lack of trying). Workers must rely on their own collective strength. Otherwise, we will see the end of retirement for everyone except the very wealthy – and the politicians.
that the new world order deal between the UAW and Ford was already a sewn-up deal. If Ford is the most successful U.S.automaker, then, the union method is to not give up any more concessions than they really should. Or could.
Shouldn't they give some things up? I don't know about you, but near-bankruptcy should cause a UAW member to want to give up concessions in order to help their employer stay intact and operating more so in the umm...black, right? :sick:
but near-bankruptcy should cause a UAW member to want to give up concessions in order to help their employer stay intact and operating
You are not talking about a rational workforce. This is the UAW the ones that brought the US auto industry to their knees and into chapter 11. You think they will go away while Ford still has a chance at survival? Ford needs to move all their manufacturing to Mexico and Brazil before the UAW buries them. They are a greedy bunch and feel they are entitled to make more than any other non skilled labor on the planet. Ford needs to lay it on the line. $15 per hour for everyone still working. You don't like it we are shutting down your plant and moving where people are willing to work for a decent wage. If GM had done that in 1998 they would still be at the top of the heap. Instead of Barry's experiment.
The 401(k) was the scam of the century. Corporations offloaded their "burdensome" pensions and used the combined forces of the media and politicians to sell the ruse to the public
You just don't get it do you? The reason so many corporations opted out of their pension plans was ERISA. The Feds got involved and made it too expensive to keep and maintain a pension plan. Pensions were there for employees that stayed with the company for decades and they were given a retirement at around 65. ERISA says an employee only has to work 5 years into the pension plan and they will get a retirement at the given age. That may be nice but unsustainable for many companies. So it was easier to just opt out and say here you handle your own retirement. No scam involved the person could invest in gold or tinkertoys under most 401K plans. Whatever they felt was a safe investment. I know I am happy with my 401k that is back above what it was when I retired 3 years ago. They go up and down depending on the level of risk you want to take.
You just watched while GM went into bankruptcy trying to pay $7 billion per year into retiree health care. You still defend the UAW with a straight face. :confuse:
GM in the early 1980s still ruled the global auto industry. But the company had been jolted by the recession of that era, and lost money for the first time in 60 years. The import market nearly doubled—from 13 percent to more than 24 percent—between 1970 and 1985. And the fledgling Japanese auto plants in America were building top-quality products with just half the workforce that GM factories needed.
And yet another cut/paste:
My father spent his working years in a union. My wife is in a union. I don't hate unions, but over the years, I've always wondered how workers and companies could be expected to succeed when the workers and companies habitually acted as if they were in battle against each other.
In terms of the auto industry, I've long been interested in the principle of kaizen, which is so pervasive in Toyota's auto business. This philosophy of continuous improvement has enabled Toyota to develop more reliable automobiles more quickly than their US counterparts. And it has represented the antithesis of the UAW.
According to a fascinating Newsweek piece, this adversarial relationship killed GM's early '80's interest in developing a new kind of car company focused on small cars - even hybrid cars - that could compete with the Japanese, while creating a new relationship between the UAW and GM partially based on incentives and success. This was to be the future and the salvation of GM. It was called Saturn.
The original idea didn't survive, but the reasons for its failure were not just limited to corporate ineptitude, but the stubborn, refuse-to-adapt-to-the-future UAW mentality. However, had the original intent of Saturn succeeded, according to Newsweek, many analysts speculate the US auto industry wouldn't just be free from the tentacles of bankruptcy, but far more successful and fuel efficient.
Here is an article and counter-point that's very interesting.
ARTCLE: UAW bristles as Ford seeks concessions
DETROIT - The amicable relationship Ford Motor Co. has shared for decades with the United Autos Workers union may be on the verge of cracking, as the automaker seeks to cut its labor costs at time when it is in a far stronger position than its U.S. competitors.
Dearborn-based Ford and members of the UAW's bargaining committee for Ford are meeting last week. On the table: additional concessions on work rules, strike provisions and wages for new hires.
The talks will be challenging. Ford's union workers agreed to amend their 2007 contract in March with concessions to help the automaker cut costs and avoid taking government aid. Some local union officials say workers have no interest in accepting further cuts.
"Once you open door, it just doesn't stop, they keep coming back for more," said Gary Walkowicz, bargaining committee member for UAW Local 600, representing workers at Ford's Dearborn truck plant. Walkowicz said he is opposed to future concessions and is "not surprised the company keeps coming back."
But concessions agreed to by General Motors and Chrysler hourly workers went deeper than Ford's, as workers feared their companies would slip into bankruptcy and be forced to layoff thousands of workers. Most of those jobs were saved during the quick trip through bankruptcy court because GM and Chrysler union contracts were already amended and approved before the bankruptcy filings.
Now Ford, the only U.S. automaker to pass on government aid and the first to get a modified contract deal approved, is back at the table looking for parity with GM and Chrysler.
Ford CEO Alan Mulally has repeatedly said the company would "not be disadvantaged" when it comes to labor costs.
.... And the company is improving. Ford turned a $2.3 billion profit in the second quarter thanks to its debt reduction efforts. July sales rose 2.4 percent, and with Ford Focuses and Escapes being among the top sellers in the Cash for Clunkers program, August sales are expected show an improvement over last year.
"Everything looks favorable for Ford. This means it's difficult for them now to suddenly claim poverty," said Gary Chaison, professor of labor relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass. "It can very easily strain their relationship with the UAW."
Counterpoint:
The claim to poverty isn't exactly "sudden." The fact is that the company (FORD) lost an incredible $30 billion from 2006 through 2008 and had a relatively narrow loss in the first quarter of 2009. The company has one good quarter, and "suddenly" it can afford to put itself at a 4-year competitive disadvantage? Uh, no.
If the economy doesn't (excuse the expression) pick up, a cost structure significantly higher than that found at GM, Chrysler, and its principal Japanese transplant rivals Toyota, Honda, and Nissan could hurt margins and start the cycle of losses in Dearborn all over again -- and this time the company is mortgaged to the hilt.
Johnson's failure to explore the drop-dead obvious conflicts of interest inherent in a company having to negotiate with an entity that owns and/or controls two of its principal rivals is an unfortunately likely foreshadowing of the kid-glove approach we'll see from the establishment media in the coming years.
now, you and I don't have a stake in these discussions, unless of course we own Ford stock, so we can clearly see the UAW's folly here.
Heck, I remember clearly in 2000, when my Engineering Union, SPEEA, was cheerleading the "strike" idea through our heads over and over again. And the group was so headstrongly sullied by their leadership that they thought it good and well to reject the 1st offer from the Company. I read that first offer thoroughly and I kid you not, the 2nd offer from the Boeing Company to SPEEA was worth less money than the 1st offer!
It's just that by the time 45 days of striking has rolled around, people are starting to get hungry. What a waste...most people conceded that that strike(the longest white collar strike in U.S. history, something like 45 days)was just to show that SPEEA collectively had the kahuna's to bring Boeing's to their knees. :confuse:
Excuse me, but it seems to me that it was Boeing that had the real Kahuna's here: their offer the 2nd time actually saved them money. Plus, with their Dr.Evil layoff mentality, with some grey-suited set of dorks always ready to push the ejector seat buttons and let people go, they knew they really always had and have the upper hand in things.
In this UAW/Ford scenario, Alan Mullaly(yep, he was my biggest boss at The Boeing Company)now the CEO of Ford Motor Company, knows he holds all the cards here. He could do what gagrice is suggesting, and close down the American assembly plants altogether and do the famous Boeing trick of "offloading" all of their producion work to Mexico or...I don't know...Brazil or something.
"Everything looks favorable for Ford. This means it's difficult for them now to suddenly claim poverty," said Gary Chaison, professor of labor relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass. "It can very easily strain their relationship with the UAW."
The above words just floor me. What planet are these Union cheeseheads really from? Or even those like the guy above that studies these issues for a living? Sheesh.
Comments
The UAW can and will go on strike while they are not under contract.
The UAW did go on strike last year while under contract, conveniently at the only plants building the only vehicles that GM could sell. That was a real help to prevent bankruptcy.
Now would you please give me one instance where the Big Three were given incentives by governments of other nations?
I imagine if GM had fuel efficient vehicles for sale in Germany during their cash for clunkers they were popular. Many Germans opted for Hyundai same as here. If the D3 could build fuel efficient cars with their bloated labor costs I am sure they would sell in other countries.
People, we need to think about the future of this country, get past the finger pointing and figure out how to bring back a good family wage paying job back to America. Over the last 15 - 20 years we have shipped so much wealth and so many jobs overseas at who's benefit? We need to teach the next generation how to spend their money wisely. Vote with YOUR money, demand products and services made here in the USA. Funny how retailers can whine about sales, yet they don't think about where what they are selling is made!~!~. No jobs, no buying power. Doesn't take an economics masters degree to figure this one out.
That sure sounds nice. Problem is it is WRONG. People in this country have shown that they will buy the BEST products, the BEST deals. So if we want jobs in this country we had better figure out how to compete. We need to be smarter, not whiners. We also need to abolish rules that cause Ford to put its most modern plant in BRAZIL instead of the US. If we fail to change then we have done it to ourselves.
Ignorance abounds here. I am not a union person, nor a person who like unions. However, to put all the blame on the UAW is plane ignorance.
A plane is what I used to work on at the Boeing Everett Division. We made 747's, 767's and 777's while I was still there. An ignorant, money-grubbing, way overly conservative bunch of idiots in grey suits decided that 40,000 of us would have to be laid off. So much for showing loyalty to employees that busted their butts for the Company. In overly stressful working conditions most of the time. Under pressure to meet deadlines. Without very much complaining, I'd be lying if I tried to say we never complained.
But, all is not lost, I think you meant to say plain ignorance.
And, in this case, gagrice and most of us regulars on here are right, the UAW's have de-railed the U.S. auto industry with their ignorant greed. The union Heads still get their money, right.
Unions don't have to exist. I work now in a hospital and no unions exist. We get good pay and benefits, too. Both imagine and fancy that. It can happen to you.
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I DO spend MY money wisely- and I will always value quality over price. If the best product is made in the USA I'll gladly buy it- but I won't accept an inferior product just because it was slapped together in the USA...
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Loss of Earning Power Permanent
$8.50 is only aout 8.5% higher than $7.83. However, I'm sure it's a safe bet inflation has gone up a lot more than 8.5% over the course of the last 14 years.
We all agree that management has a part in this, too...they designed vehicles that no one wanted to buy...but I have this sneaking suspicion that the Big 3 COULD have sold many more cars, if not for the perceived lack of quality or perceived lack of workmanship in the product itself...
Like it or not, many buyers bought imports BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE BETTER MADE WITH A HIGHER LEVEL OF QUALITY...and that I place squarely on the shoulders of the workers...we have repeated this before...doors that do not close or fit right, rattles in the dashboard, uneven spaces where parts like hoods and trunk lids line up with the body, etc....frankly, I think many, not all, UAW folks were just overpaid children thinking they were playing with Lincoln Logs, and threw them together anyway they might fit...the thought of CARING that the final user might think it was junk never dawned on their infantile little minds...
If doors squeak, vehicles rattle, wires are exposed, and something doesn't work right (A/C duct controls don't work, radio does not sit securely in the space) a buyer rightfully assumes that "if this is what I can see, what is wrong that I CAN'T see?"...
Mgmt has its share, but once you are past the overall look of the vehicle, if you like the way it looks, then the rest comes down to quality workmanship, and this is the large part where the UAW falls flat on its face...
Blame the workers, blame the UAW...they drove the Big 3 into the Big 1 (Ford)...if they made their cars with the perceived reputation of quality of Honda or Toyota, I really wonder if they would have gone Chapter 11...and yes, the top mgmt took bonuses they never deserved, but those millions are NOT what drove them into Ch 11, it was the $billions for employees that drove them under...
We are still the worlds number consumer nation. But like cannon3 said folks without good jobs don't have much extra money to fuel economic growth. Fact during contraction, those UAW jobs gone ripple and cost others their jobs. Most of us have homes and the more buyers the higher price those homes will fetch. Simple supply and demand has price as its rationing mechanism.
If you want to preserve those jobs, then the solution is simple: build what we want to buy, build it well & sell it to us for a price that we're willing to pay. Stop whining about "unfair trade practices", roll up your sleeves & get to work.
The idea is taught as if were gospel.
AOL is the number one ISP (internet service provider). Ever try to switch? How about you getting that off your computer? Great marketing, you throw millions of CD's into mail boxes and folks will load it. I could go on at the inferior product having the lions share of the market because of brilliant marketing.
Has everyone in America had the pleasure of driving a UAW made Cadillac CTS or STS? There are many reasons for consumers opting for one product/service over another. I can only agree that the more choice, the better for the consumer. However, the consumers are far and few these days. For all of the automakers not just the domestics. For that matter folks are buying generic over brand names. Bad for Pepsico, Coke, P&G......................Prior recessions consumer staples did well compared to the rest of the economy. This time its different. So one might even assume this is closer to a depression.
And, of course, ...:):):)...you KNOW why the dealer could never find the rattle or line up the door...those worthless, useless, overpaid, underworked, welfare-entitlement-attitude UAW workers who couldn't competently build a car if it only had 2 pieces...could there be any OTHER reason???...
You certainly have to accept the UAW as an evolution of American capitalism.
Gee, we're the #1 consumer market in the WORLD. We are still tied as the #1 auto market in the world. You are sobbing too soon. It's just competition. The D3 reaped the rewards of 30 years residual sales as the products went to hell. Why is it unfair that it takes the same 30 years for people to believe they have changed?
Ford is doing a good job. Thank god they got a non-car guy in place to really shake things up. Hyundai has really shaken things up. GM is not there yet. Chrysler is hopeless.
When you build the best products people will want those. Instead of dwelling on all the unfairness in the world, make the best products. The reason Toyota and Honda have been so successful is that for the mainstream market, they have been the best in most segments.
There is no reason a Ford or a GM cannot be the best. It just takes the management to set that goal and the workers to rally behind that goal. Workers striking the plant of the best sedan a company like GM makes WHILE the company is hemorrhaging money and dying is inexcusable. It confirms the idiocy and the destructiveness of the UAW. THAT is not the fault of foreign monopolies or cartels. Those are just intellectual diversions from the real goal - BUILD THE BEST PRODUCTS.
Does not appeal to me. However I rented a Chevy Equinox for two weeks in Hawaii and it was a horrible noisy little POC. Did the UAW put it together? There part was the $7 billion spent on gold plated health care by GM. When you are spending more than you make you cut corners. So maybe the Caddy is a decent car. Who cares except for a small handful of diehard Caddy lovers? Mainstream America wants a decent CUV. Sadly GM (Obama Motors) does not build one. Ford builds one, Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Mazda all build one. GM spent all their R&D money on a Ponzi scheme cooked up with the UAW bosses. Wonder how much they got under the table for selling out the workers?
You certainly have to accept the UAW as an evolution of American capitalism.
I accept the UAW as a failed attempt at Communism, by the thug leaders like Walter Reuther. May he RIH. He helped ruin Unions along with thugs like Jimmy Hoffa.
People point to the CTS, the Malibu as examples that GM has changed - why do people still not like GM? Well in addition to taking tons of our tax money, they have something like 30+ models even after all the trimming, and we are citing maybe 3-5 vehicles as competing in the top of their class! That is NOT a sea change that is needed.
Where are >50% of the GM models that should be competitive with other brands? I dare say Honda and Toyota both compete in >50% of their models. Even Mazda does this. Over 50% of Audi models are highly competitive. Get rid of the junk, GM. Don't just have a few good vehicles. Dump the junk!
My family's cars were built in Germany & Japan, so why are you blabbering about "child & slave labor in China" & "Libertines" (whatever they are)?
Why stop there? Why not blame sunspots & male pattern baldness for your misfortunes?
Your posts aren't doing anything to dispel my suspicion that the UAW would rather make excuses than good cars.
And you certainly have to accept it's demise is the continuation of that evolution.
Regards,
OW
Treasury Department officials have acknowledged that most of the $23 billion provided by the Bush administration is likely to be lost.
A failed industry proves the UAW evolution was a total failure...the Government acknowledges this and despite that hand out money that will never be repaid.
Regards,
OW
lemko, please list your address, and the hours your facility is open for visitors...are cameras allowed, or will the intense flash destroy the UAW paint on your UAW vehicles???... :P
An '09 or 2010?? Either way, they are built in Ingersoll, Ontario. But the 2010 is supposedly worlds better
Yeah, it was either the 3.4 or 3.5 (can't remember which). Either way, IMO both were third rate engines whether they were built in China or the heart of UAW country.
Perhaps we can be the financial advisors to the WORLD in this new service economy? We must be the best at that since there isn't any UAW involved in that? How many cars or how expensive a car could have purchased if the wonder boys of Wall Street hadn't kept letting your money ride. You know those who lost millions with Madoff have to be mad at the UAW as well. As they say in Vegas, the comps are over high roller.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/aug/26/toyota-suspends-japanese-producti- on-line
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE57O58A20090826
Car plants around the world are idle or running below capacity as the industry copes with a slide in sales that sent General Motors Co and Chrysler Group LLC into bankruptcy and has Toyota headed for a record loss this year.
http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2008/04/21/story2.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/697671.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/business/13bizbriefs-HONDASCALESB_BRF.html
Paying a janitor, forklift operator or a line person in a factory $30 an hour is crazy. I can hire skilled plumbers, electricians, carpenters, roofers, painters, brick layers, concrete finishers all self starters without 2000 pages of rules for $20 per hour. That is here in San Diego where we have one of the highest cost of living indexes in the country. And guess what they are tickled to get the work and are on the job on time and sober. Something went wrong with the UAW and now it is on the brink of extinction. The UAW was not a good example to what Unions should be.
We've failed at US nameplate cars AND US nameplate financial management. :mad:
As long as the UAW is involved in financial acumen related to making great cars (as part ownwers), no chance. We don't have to worry about that yet until the UAW pay is again in line with the rest of the economy, now, do we? AFAIC, the cars in the rest of the world track the financial acumen in those economies as opposed to the bankrupt UAW-member economic representation in the US manufacturing system.
Regards,
OW
I fail to understand why the line would make rental cars different...or, put another way, maybe rental cars are the UAW assembly workers at their absolute worst...but it does make sense that if you rent a car from a given carmaker, say, GM, and it is absolute junk, it does tend to infect your opinion of the entire line...now, if the rental has 100K miles, maybe not so much, but if the vehicle has under 30K miles, and is falling apart, well, 'nuff said for that carmaker's products...
Except for lemko, of course...
It all goes back to the Ponzi scheme cooked up by GM management and the UAW to cover retirees. The automaker has to sell so many cars to keep that money rolling in. Then we get a little downturn and the scheme falls apart. Very similar to SS and Medicare that is losing money even with increased SS taxes every year.
And Ford limped out a profit in 1st Q 2009, didn't they? Ford is doing pretty well, and the fact that Mulally came from Boeing and not automaking no doubt helped him and Ford in this quest, you're right on with that assessment tlong.
I for one would like to see Ford succeed. I have bought several Fords, although GM and Chrysler not so many of them. If both failed I could still wake up tomorrow and get stoked for the Seahawks to dismantle opponent #1 on Sunday. Hopefully Lost Wages, bookies and crooked ref's won't affect this season's Super Bowl.
Talking to my dentist yesterday after he finished his work on my crown about Super Bowl 40 between Seattle and Pittsburgh, and guess what. I didn't lead in with my assessment of the refereeing and he says this.
"Super Bowl 40? That game was rigged. Obviously the Seahawks were the better team. I couldn't believe the calls." Apparently fans watching the Super Bowl in the New England region were throwing food at the TV screen! Come on, give each team a fair chance to win the big Enchilada. Must betting control pro sport outcomes? That is truly pathetic. :sick:
I shook his hand and thanked him. Honest-hearted Americans know that Super Bowl 40 on February 5, 2006, was thrown. If you doubt it, answer me this. Why has the NFL front office banned Super Bowl 40 referees from ever reffing another Super Bowl?
Greed and corruption is alive and well in the U.S. Not only in NFL football but in the UAW's union antics and frantics as well.
Oh, well, I'll just turn up the best rock band ever, Foghat, and drown it all out. Over.
And out. :shades:
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I didn't agree with the BO for the Banks but at least some have paid it back already. Fat Chance GM and C pay it back. In fact, who wants to bet they suck wind again and come crying for more crumbs??
The UAW will continue to shrink away...just like the sales of US cars that are second-rate at best.
Regards,
OW
Much Ado About Another Do-Over
Love Foghat, however.
Regards,
OW
At the time, anyway.
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UAW a hard sell for Ford...
Some say automaker's success hinders more concessions for union
Regards.
OW
The baby boomers are having to face a new reality. Last year, 2008, was supposed to be the year that the first baby boomers turned 62, beginning a retirement frenzy because people could begin to draw on their social security benefits. However, the economy has nosedived, and studies show that many are delaying their retirement by many years. The unfortunate reality is that those who had an investment plan for retirement will now join the millions of other baby boomers who were never able to save and have to work until the grave.
This is a perfect storm. Everything that could go wrong is going wrong. This storm was created by the coordinated effort of big-business and their ‘bought and paid for’ politicians. This was done by the deliberate destruction of defined benefit pension systems and its replacement with the 401(k). Now that the economic crisis has emerged, we're beginning to see just how ruinous the effects are. At the end of September 2008, it was discovered that in the previous year the value of stocks in 401(k) accounts had fallen by nearly $2 trillion with stocks having lost nearly half their value for the year. This is especially devastating since almost one-third of 401(k) participants who are now in their 60s had 80 percent of their money in stocks. People over 60 years of age should have 60 percent of their money in bonds, but investment brokers lured them from safe investments with stories of getting rich with stocks.
The 401(k) was the scam of the century. Corporations offloaded their "burdensome" pensions and used the combined forces of the media and politicians to sell the ruse to the public, to the great benefit of Wall Street. Workers were told that stocks were a sure thing. There were additional factors that pushed people to invest in stocks: interest rates were so low on bonds and other low risk instruments offered only tiny returns; and since employers stopped contributing to retirement funds, a bigger return was required.
Every "safe bet" for investing has been proven unsafe. The recession has left nothing untouched. After the dotcom bubble burst -- taking with it millions of people's 401(k) savings -- the housing market became the place to invest. Now the safest possible investment, too, has turned sour. Millions of people bought very large homes as an investment. They had planned to sell and move into a smaller place once the kids were gone, but now, due to the crash in the housing market, this will not happen for many of them. They are stuck in homes that are too large and expensive to maintain if they retire. So, they must keep working.
U.S. citizens are between a rock and a hard place because corporations have been allowed to move a large part of their companies overseas to take advantage of cheaper labor. And foreign auto companies have moved into the southeast U.S. where labor is cheap and benefits are non-existent. These foreign companies were given huge tax breaks by the state governments basically allowing them to function in this country with little to no tax “burden.” This enabled the corporations to drive down real wages for U.S. workers. At the same time the cost of living rose exponentially, causing most workers to have to spend more of their paychecks to just live. There was little to no money left to save for retirement.
This process is being accelerated by the newest scam of big business: declaring bankruptcy just to destroy pension and healthcare obligations. This destruction of benefits also applies to workers who are already retired because their pensions are slashed in half, forcing them out of retirement at a very old age. The threat of bankruptcy is now used in union contract negotiations to scare workers into concessions, since after achieving bankruptcy labor agreements are torn up and benefits are lost.
Worker benefits were at the center of the debate about whether or not to help the Detroit car companies. The Republicans in Congress, who are mostly corporate politicians, wanted the companies to declare bankruptcy – a proven method to destroy pensions and healthcare benefits. Of course the media, owned by large corporations, also attack the pension and health care benefits of the "spoiled" auto workers. Yet, at the same time, we the people, can only dream of the kind of retirement and health benefits these hypocrites have.
These Congressional Republicans would also like to see the end of Social Security. Just think what would have happened if they had been able to achieve their goal of privatizing Social Security. Everyone under 55 years of age would have been required to put part or all of their Social Security into the stock market. Where would that money be today? Non-existent.
A business going under and closing it’s doors forever is one thing. The corporate strategy of “re-organizing” through the use of bankruptcy is another thing altogether. This tactic will increase in number as the crisis deepens and companies strive to restore profitability by drastically lowering the wages and gutting the benefits of U.S. workers.
Equally important is the emerging struggle for maintaining pensions of public employees, the last stronghold of workers who receive them. Public employees will find their pensions under immense attack as the economic crisis intensifies and government budgets are depleted. Those state workers who have a strong union or professional organizations that work with state legislatures in their name are the ones who still have decent wages, pension, and health benefits – so far.
The ultimate goal of big business and their puppet politicians is to destroy the unions, destroy benefits, and push the wages of U.S. workers down even further so that business can achieve ever higher profits and line the pockets of the wealthy with more and more and more.
A battle must be waged against the destruction of pension and health benefits. It must be done by uniting both seriously determined retired and active workers with new levels of organizing and solidarity. Workers can no longer rely on the promises of Democratic politicians (although if they fail, it won’t be from lack of trying). Workers must rely on their own collective strength. Otherwise, we will see the end of retirement for everyone except the very wealthy – and the politicians.
Shouldn't they give some things up? I don't know about you, but near-bankruptcy should cause a UAW member to want to give up concessions in order to help their employer stay intact and operating more so in the umm...black, right? :sick:
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You are not talking about a rational workforce. This is the UAW the ones that brought the US auto industry to their knees and into chapter 11. You think they will go away while Ford still has a chance at survival? Ford needs to move all their manufacturing to Mexico and Brazil before the UAW buries them. They are a greedy bunch and feel they are entitled to make more than any other non skilled labor on the planet. Ford needs to lay it on the line. $15 per hour for everyone still working. You don't like it we are shutting down your plant and moving where people are willing to work for a decent wage. If GM had done that in 1998 they would still be at the top of the heap. Instead of Barry's experiment.
You just don't get it do you? The reason so many corporations opted out of their pension plans was ERISA. The Feds got involved and made it too expensive to keep and maintain a pension plan. Pensions were there for employees that stayed with the company for decades and they were given a retirement at around 65. ERISA says an employee only has to work 5 years into the pension plan and they will get a retirement at the given age. That may be nice but unsustainable for many companies. So it was easier to just opt out and say here you handle your own retirement. No scam involved the person could invest in gold or tinkertoys under most 401K plans. Whatever they felt was a safe investment. I know I am happy with my 401k that is back above what it was when I retired 3 years ago. They go up and down depending on the level of risk you want to take.
You just watched while GM went into bankruptcy trying to pay $7 billion per year into retiree health care. You still defend the UAW with a straight face. :confuse:
Me too.
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GM in the early 1980s still ruled the global auto industry. But the company had been jolted by the recession of that era, and lost money for the first time in 60 years. The import market nearly doubled—from 13 percent to more than 24 percent—between 1970 and 1985. And the fledgling Japanese auto plants in America were building top-quality products with just half the workforce that GM factories needed.
And yet another cut/paste:
My father spent his working years in a union. My wife is in a union. I don't hate unions, but over the years, I've always wondered how workers and companies could be expected to succeed when the workers and companies habitually acted as if they were in battle against each other.
In terms of the auto industry, I've long been interested in the principle of kaizen, which is so pervasive in Toyota's auto business. This philosophy of continuous improvement has enabled Toyota to develop more reliable automobiles more quickly than their US counterparts. And it has represented the antithesis of the UAW.
According to a fascinating Newsweek piece, this adversarial relationship killed GM's early '80's interest in developing a new kind of car company focused on small cars - even hybrid cars - that could compete with the Japanese, while creating a new relationship between the UAW and GM partially based on incentives and success. This was to be the future and the salvation of GM. It was called Saturn.
The original idea didn't survive, but the reasons for its failure were not just limited to corporate ineptitude, but the stubborn, refuse-to-adapt-to-the-future UAW mentality. However, had the original intent of Saturn succeeded, according to Newsweek, many analysts speculate the US auto industry wouldn't just be free from the tentacles of bankruptcy, but far more successful and fuel efficient.
UAW helped kill GM
Any questions?
Regards,
OW
ARTCLE:
UAW bristles as Ford seeks concessions
DETROIT - The amicable relationship Ford Motor Co. has shared for decades with the United Autos Workers union may be on the verge of cracking, as the automaker seeks to cut its labor costs at time when it is in a far stronger position than its U.S. competitors.
Dearborn-based Ford and members of the UAW's bargaining committee for Ford are meeting last week. On the table: additional concessions on work rules, strike provisions and wages for new hires.
The talks will be challenging. Ford's union workers agreed to amend their 2007 contract in March with concessions to help the automaker cut costs and avoid taking government aid. Some local union officials say workers have no interest in accepting further cuts.
"Once you open door, it just doesn't stop, they keep coming back for more," said Gary Walkowicz, bargaining committee member for UAW Local 600, representing workers at Ford's Dearborn truck plant. Walkowicz said he is opposed to future concessions and is "not surprised the company keeps coming back."
But concessions agreed to by General Motors and Chrysler hourly workers went deeper than Ford's, as workers feared their companies would slip into bankruptcy and be forced to layoff thousands of workers. Most of those jobs were saved during the quick trip through bankruptcy court because GM and Chrysler union contracts were already amended and approved before the bankruptcy filings.
Now Ford, the only U.S. automaker to pass on government aid and the first to get a modified contract deal approved, is back at the table looking for parity with GM and Chrysler.
Ford CEO Alan Mulally has repeatedly said the company would "not be disadvantaged" when it comes to labor costs.
.... And the company is improving. Ford turned a $2.3 billion profit in the second quarter thanks to its debt reduction efforts. July sales rose 2.4 percent, and with Ford Focuses and Escapes being among the top sellers in the Cash for Clunkers program, August sales are expected show an improvement over last year.
"Everything looks favorable for Ford. This means it's difficult for them now to suddenly claim poverty," said Gary Chaison, professor of labor relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass. "It can very easily strain their relationship with the UAW."
Counterpoint:
The claim to poverty isn't exactly "sudden." The fact is that the company (FORD) lost an incredible $30 billion from 2006 through 2008 and had a relatively narrow loss in the first quarter of 2009. The company has one good quarter, and "suddenly" it can afford to put itself at a 4-year competitive disadvantage? Uh, no.
If the economy doesn't (excuse the expression) pick up, a cost structure significantly higher than that found at GM, Chrysler, and its principal Japanese transplant rivals Toyota, Honda, and Nissan could hurt margins and start the cycle of losses in Dearborn all over again -- and this time the company is mortgaged to the hilt.
Johnson's failure to explore the drop-dead obvious conflicts of interest inherent in a company having to negotiate with an entity that owns and/or controls two of its principal rivals is an unfortunately likely foreshadowing of the kid-glove approach we'll see from the establishment media in the coming years.
DD, let us know what you think!
Regards,
OW
Heck, I remember clearly in 2000, when my Engineering Union, SPEEA, was cheerleading the "strike" idea through our heads over and over again. And the group was so headstrongly sullied by their leadership that they thought it good and well to reject the 1st offer from the Company. I read that first offer thoroughly and I kid you not, the 2nd offer from the Boeing Company to SPEEA was worth less money than the 1st offer!
It's just that by the time 45 days of striking has rolled around, people are starting to get hungry. What a waste...most people conceded that that strike(the longest white collar strike in U.S. history, something like 45 days)was just to show that SPEEA collectively had the kahuna's to bring Boeing's to their knees. :confuse:
Excuse me, but it seems to me that it was Boeing that had the real Kahuna's here: their offer the 2nd time actually saved them money. Plus, with their Dr.Evil layoff mentality, with some grey-suited set of dorks always ready to push the ejector seat buttons and let people go, they knew they really always had and have the upper hand in things.
In this UAW/Ford scenario, Alan Mullaly(yep, he was my biggest boss at The Boeing Company)now the CEO of Ford Motor Company, knows he holds all the cards here. He could do what gagrice is suggesting, and close down the American assembly plants altogether and do the famous Boeing trick of "offloading" all of their producion work to Mexico or...I don't know...Brazil or something.
"Everything looks favorable for Ford. This means it's difficult for them now to suddenly claim poverty," said Gary Chaison, professor of labor relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass. "It can very easily strain their relationship with the UAW."
The above words just floor me. What planet are these Union cheeseheads really from? Or even those like the guy above that studies these issues for a living? Sheesh.
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