what I said was that if the Lucerne is really just a DTS w/o the snob appeal, I could either consider a used DTS or a Lucerne...I want something with power that can get 25 mpg highway, and the DTS does, according to posters...if the Lucerne is a DTS with Buick skin, I would consider it...
I also requested that nobody tell you I would consider a UAW product, or I would NEVER hear the end of it...
All different sheet metal, all different interior pieces, share V8's but Lucerne has 3800 still as base. Same suspensions but tuned differently. DTS has more uplevel features available.
First the robots in the video are all in the bodyshop. That is exactly what any modern US plant has also. All plants in the US today (at least GM) also have only one cafeteria for all employees. Of course there is no one uniform here because none are supplied.
What is different is the source integration into the plants. Here the subassemblies are built near the plant by the sources and shipped into the plants. So that is really what I get out of the story, sources are responsible for the installation of their own parts so they are right there if there are ever any problems with the part they supplied.
Sending women to work bought us some breathing room. Having fewer children bought us some more.
You might be right about the growing participation of women in the workforce, which shot up in the 1970s in response to inflation, but the trend to smaller families goes back much, much further & can't be tied to income inequality. The birth rate in the U.S. actually began to trend downward well before the Civil War - more than 150 years ago. While there have been periodic spikes - notably, the post-WWII baby boom - the long-term trend has been clearly down.
The reason is simple. In an agricultural society, large numbers of children are an asset. But they're an expense in a cash-based industrial society. Young people in wealthy countries postpone marriage until they've finished school & established themselves in their careers. Then when they do have kids, they tend to have 1 or 2 so that their children can have the best of everything.
This is true wherever you look. Once a country has developed to the point where a majority of its population no longer farms, its birth rate begins to drop. When you think of Italians, you think of large families. But Italy's birth rate is now well below the replacement rate. Japan is in even worse shape. I've seen predictions that before the end of this century, its population may fall by 50%.
social welfare programs like Social Security based its premise for existence on a growing pryramid base to keep paying into the system for a growing number of retirees, you have a recipe for disaster, because fewer workers will be paying in to people who expect more each year...
For all of his mistakes, one of Bush's brilliant proposals was to allow workers under 50 to take some of their Social Security Tax $$$ and place it into a IRA-like retirement fund that would be theirs to invest and leave to their heirs...the short-sighted Democrats and half the Republicans could not stand to see the possibility of financial independence free of gov't intervention...
You can pay into SS for 45 years, and if you die before your first check, all that $$$ is lost forever...Bush' plan would have made that retirement $$$ YOURS...
I thought the UAW and GM had settled their contracts? What is with these new strikes? If they are sympathy strikes for AA, the UAW leadership is dumber than I thought. They will successfully push all the manufacturing south of the border with that kind of ignorance. AA and the UAW are probably history. If I was one of the last surviving UAW members I sure would not follow them to the unemployment office. The other GM plants already took a cut in pay. Why do the AA guys think they are better than the 1000s of UAW members that have already settled for less? I bet Ford is loving this.
You know that both Canada and Mexico have unions right? How far south are you talking? Maybe getting the Colombians making axles would depress the drug trade?
These are for local contracts to tune each plant for it's own conditions. I think GM left too much on table when they got the national agreement and now the national is using the locals to get as much as they can. Sure GM was hurting overall and so the UAW gave some historic consessions but now they are striking at the hot plants to keep as much as they canand they are trying to force GM to throw in a bunch of money to AA to give them more buy outs. AA used to be part of GM.
I'd think the union workers would want to help keep the more popular models selling well instead of trying for every last dime that will cause their jobs to move south. Somehow I think they operate with the same lack of mental ability many of our politicians use to make decisions.
Maybe getting the Colombians making axles would depress the drug trade?
When they get to Tierra del Fuego they can head over to South Africa. The world is full of small countries that are longing to come out of poverty. We have diverted some of the land in Columbia from growing coca to cut flowers. Most of the roses you get from the florist are Columbian grown. It has put pressure on Hawaii flower growers. Cutting into my profits or I should say making my losses even greater. That is life in this global economy. Striking with the idea you are EVER going back to the "good ole days" is crazy.
I dunno if I can go back to the Civil war, but I can track my family throughout the 20th Century. My Dad was number nine of ten kids, my parents had three kids, and I have none.
My grandparents were first-generation immigrants and it's said they have many children and number of children declines from each generation out.
GM offers American Axle $200 million to end strike Money would be used for UAW buyout program DETROIT -- General Motors has agreed to pay $200 million to help with employee buyouts and “buy-downs” to help resolve a crippling strike at American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc. In a regulatory filing today, GM said the agreement is “predicated upon an expedited resolution to the ongoing strike called by the International UAW against American Axle
Striking with the idea you are EVER going back to the "good ole days" is crazy.
True, but striking to keep what you have is not. AA wants to cut their salaries from $28/hr to $12. Not pay new hires $12 mind you, like the other suppliers, but CUT CURRENT EMPLOYEES SALARIES FROM $28 to $12.
The "many" it works for are the newcomers to this country. I may be wrong ( Rocky, 62, a little help here), but wherever The Big 3 goes in this country, the UAW is sure to follow.
Lets say for example GM closes its Malibu plants and builds one big one in Georgetown, Ky, right next door to Toyota (yes there is a method to my madness). I'm sure there must be some language in the contract about rules for plant closures, offering relocation for displaced workers, etc. All that will lead to one thing; unionization of the new plant (and unionization of the Toyota plant w/in 10 yrs., I suppose).
Many of us can tell a similar story (although my Dad, an only child, went on to have 2 of his own), but that doesn't change the fact that people began having smaller families generations before income inequality became a topic of conversation.
AA wants to cut their salaries from $28/hr to $12.
That is a big cut to current employees. Does anyone know what the UAW countered back with that was not accepted? Maybe AA will accept the $200 million from GM and buy off the older workers. If GM finds suppliers paying $12 to $15 per hour making the same product the 3600 AA workers will be out without anything. They walked out which gives them little protection other than whatever they have built up in retirement.
It may surprise you that I am not a UAW member ( ), but I was under the impression that if a Big 3 was to close a few plants in order to consolidate into one new big plant, as long as it was located in the USA, they would have to offer jobs to the displaced workers on either a seniority basis or a merit basis (i.e. those employees with the fewest disciplinary actions)...
Even tho the South is right to work and generally nonunion, our GM Doraville and Ford Hapeville plants were unionized because they were part of a northern unionized company...Now that both of those plants have closed, I wonder just how much unionized labor we have now in GA...
I am also quite sure that the new Hyundai (Kia???) plant being built here will be nonunion...
GM does offer jobs to its union members at other plants.
If GM ever tried to open a US/Canada plant w/o union representation the entire UAW workforce would shut everything down, everywhere.
This is just one of the disadvantages of being an old player. Union wages/beni's, retiree pensions, health care, old plants, etc. True for every business.
Shoot, I'm surprised they're not burning the plant and pushing managers' cars over on their sides! Geeze, the price of everything is going up and AA wants to cut their pays by more than half? I don't think men tired from walking to work and malnourished due to unaffordable food are going to build decent axles!!!
South Carolina (BMW plant, Michelin, etc) is a right to work state. The strongest unions appear to be the longshoremen at the Port of Charleston. Even if there is a union at the place one works, a worker doesn't have to join. :shades:
That not having to join even if there is a union is the definition of a right to work state. It amazes me that there are any unions at all in such states sinc banding together is the whole idea in a union.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
You are absolutely correct lemko, and it kills me that so many on here find nothing wrong with the idea. Now if their boss came in on monday morning and said "Hey Bill, we are cutting your pay in half, oh and don't let me forget you are going to lose health care benefits and pay double for those reduced benefits" How many of these armchair Quarterbacks, with all the answers would be up in arms having that done to them ???? I believe most, if not all !!! Getting them to admit it well is another thing !!!!!
-The Rock
P.S. Bob, that is still shocking to me that you would buy anything "union made" since you dislike people like myself !!! :surprise:
it kills me that so many on here find nothing wrong with the idea.
If AA came in and offered $12 per hour to those who are currently making $28 per hour and said we are going to implement this the day the contract expires. Then you have a good case. If this was an opening offer and the UAW dug in their heels at the current $28 per hour, I have little sympathy. There is nothing in our laws that say you should always get a pay raise at contract time. If the UAW is willing to push the last bit of union manufacturing off shore, I guess that is the way it is. The Japanese, Koreans and Germans have come to realize they can get cars built here in the USA and be competitive with the labor market in their own countries.
$12 an hour is fine if you're a 19 year-old guy sharing a ratty apartment with two other guys and your only real expenses are a case of Old Milwaukee and pizza.
However, if you're an older established guy with a wife and a few kids and your oldest is about to go away to college, a 58% pay cut is really going to hurt.
What's a guy to do? Is he supposed to forgo having a family in anticipation that it'll no longer be cost-effective to do so?
Is a man supposed to save every dime and die of a heart attack working three low-paying jobs just to get by? I'm living to THRIVE not just survive! Shoot if all I'm doing is living to work to make some other guy rich beyond the dreams of avarice, I might as well get the .45 out of the nightstand drawer and say adios!
Is a man supposed to spend all his disposable income and free time going back to school to earn a degree that may or may not get him that magical position that'll allow him to spend time with his family while all along his wife's been having an affair due to his absence and junior has joined the Latin Kings or MS-13 due to the lack of a male role model in the house?
Bob, if you are replying to the post I think you are, I think that was the gist of it. Someone had wrote about anything south of the Mason-Dixon line being "union safe" (my words) and I was pointing out that if GM moved a plant to the South, the UAW would be sure to follow, as there is probably contract language that would require it.
As far as not being required to join a union, Here in RI (as Union friendly a state as you can get) there is NO requirement that I belong to the union. But, as acrimonious as union/management relationships can be in a union shop, you are at risk of becoming a scapegoat, as if management were to discipline you, and you felt they were just picking on you, there would be nobody to back you up. Also, and I imagine the same could be said in a Southern union shop, you risk being ostracized by your co-workers, as you will receive the same contract benefits that the union workers get, only you pay no dues (although I believe if I were to tell my local to screw, the equivalent of my weekly dues will still be deducted from my pay and given to charity, so as to discourage people from getting that extra $10-12 bucks a week in their paycheck and riding the coattails of the contract). And YES I do believe this forces some people to say well, just give it to the union so I get protection, and they reluctantly go with the flow.
you are at risk of becoming a scapegoat, as if management were to discipline you
I learned at about 20 years old the advantage to being part of the Union. I was not a member of the CWA at Pacific Telephone. It was very low key and I don't think I was ever really asked to join. I got in situation where the boss wanted to get rid of me and the CWA guys jumped to my defense. Needless to say I have been a paying member ever since. The CWA was really not a real strong Union. In my 46 years in the Telephone business my only strike was with the CWA. 37 years a Teamster and we never walked out. That to me is good Union management. Which overall the Alaska Teamsters had.
There's lots of ways to do things. Here in NJ there are closed shops., open shops and agency shops. In a closed shop you are either a member of the union or unemployed. In an open shop there's a union but you have the option of joining. In an agency shop (which we are here in the land of government employ) if you choose not to pay full union dues the union still represents you in the case of a dispute with the employer and all that good stuff but you can't vote in elections including voting up or down on a contract, You still pay 85% of full union dues as an agency member.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
>"$12 an hour is fine if you're a 19 year-old guy sharing a ratty apartment with two other guys ..."
Actually it is quite fine for a high school education just getting started in life. Much better than $7 or $8 for most jobs requiring a high school education.
That is a time in life when they should be making decisions about their future. Get that education that will allow them to earn the good life. OR....Earn or learn a valuable skill.
Every person flipping burgers, selling shoes, and picking cabbage would like to earn $28+ per hour with full bennefits. So what makes the guy hanging bumpers so special? Earning as much or more as the Nurse with 4 years of college and dealing with human lives daily. Or the cop, fire fighter, teacher, blah, blah, blah...! Of course, that has been happening at UAW shops for many moons. Management allowed it to happen instead of nipping it in the bud. Now the time for a reality check has come. Don't expect to walk out the door of high school and start a job allowing you to "THRIVE" in the good life.
>"What's a guy to do? Is he supposed to forgo having a family in anticipation that it'll no longer be cost-effective to do so?"
Yes, we should not take on any more responsibility than we can afford. If he is a $12 dollar an hour guy, he should expect to lead a $12 life.
>"Is a man supposed to spend all his disposable income and free time going back to school to earn a degree that may or may not get him that magical position that'll allow him to spend time with his family while all along his wife's been having an affair due to his absence and junior has joined the Latin Kings or MS-13 due to the lack of a male role model in the house? "
Might be time for the MAN to face his responsibilities. Do whatever it takes to support that responsibility. The career he chose, the wife he chose, and the kids he had are HIS responsibility.
>"However, if you're an older established guy with a wife and a few kids and your oldest is about to go away to college, a 58% pay cut is really going to hurt."
Agreed And it is ridiculous for management to do that to the established employees that have been earning or promised that higher wage. Management agreed to it and they should stick to their obligation. However, NEW HIRES should/could expect the same pay/bennefits as the same type job in any other industry. What is so wrong with that?
The original role of unions was to ensure fair treatment of the employees, decent working conditions and overtime pay for overtime hours. The UAW has pushed that envelope entirely too far and the Big 3 and their subsidiaries have allowed it to happen.
UAW appears to be going to continue pushing the issue until that $28 dollar job becomes a $7 job in Mexico. And people will be rushing back there and standing in line for them.
that only proves you have no comprehension of me...:):):)..."Bob, that is still shocking to me that you would buy anything "union made" since you dislike people like myself"...
I don't dislike YOU, I think unions are dead or dying on the vine, because their members have no understanding of business, simply because the UAW cannot just get higher wages for unskilled work, expecting the price of an Impala to reach $40K and expect their CUSTOMERS, their real bosses, to buy the product...if the buyers won't buy at the listed price, and you can't decrease the price of your supplies and materials, then labor costs get cut, simply because there ARE people who would LOVE to work for $15 an hour, because their lack of skills has them flipping burgers for $8 an hour...it is the MARKET that will kill the UAW, along with its own greed and ignorance...
You also forget that as much as I admire Honda and Toy for quality products, and they were the best cars I ever owned, since 1998 I have owned a Regal, Intrepid, Sable, and now a Crown Vic and a Ram 1500, all bought new except the Sable...My purchases have probably actually SUPPORTED the UAW with my money than your silly union rah-rah sticking your head into the sand...
I really do WANT the American manufacturing base to thrive, but my comments for YEARS have been that with the level of automobile quality constantly decreasing due to union ignorance, militancy, subtle sabotage and the intentional making of trash products , it is no wonder that factories are moving away, as the only way to stop the union was to bite off its head and take the jobs away, as the union only desires to raise its pay, BUT HAS NO REGARD WHATSOVER ABOUT THE PRODUCT THEY MAKE...THEY MADE JUNK FOR 30 YEARS AND HAVE THE GALL TO GET OFFENDED WHEN SMART CONSUMERS TAKE THEIR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE...that is why the union should be destroyed...once silly union work rules have been removed from our thinking processes, and rotten employees can be fored at will, then, and only then, will superior quality return to American cars...
So, while the best cars I ever owned were 4 Hondas between 1985 and 1998, I have owned Big 3 union cars since then, over a decade by now...I may scream and yell about the union, and I am confident about its demise in the near future, but I still support the American factory base, doing what I can...
Most folks who jump down my throat for criticizing unions (usually those who have NO comprehension about business, just those who are brainwashed by the entitlement mentality, thinking that paychecks just come in the mail) have not taken THEIR hard earned money and bought 4 new union-made cars in the last 10 years, between $90-100,000.00 total value...
"So, while the best cars I ever owned were 4 Hondas between 1985 and 1998,"
That's about the perfect time frame for Hondas. It's a wonder given that history that you managed to go back into the domestic fold.
I'll give the domestics every shot next time around on a new vehicle but that will likely be a while. They should start on a roomy convertible now so they'll be ready for me.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
As much as I rail against unions and the UAW, I felt in 1998, as the imports were gaining market share, that it was time to give the Big 3 another opportunity...
Frankly, I still believe that my Hondas were better built and better cars than the vehicles I have purchased since 1998...however, I have not experienced any lemons, just little annoying things that make me or my wife say, under our breath, "we never had these little problems with the Hondas"...
I have not been in any import since 1998, so my feelings about imports are simply from 13 years of, IMO, some of the best automotive products I have ever seen, especially when you consider that the Hondas were bought after the boat-anchor, union-made junk of the 70s and 80s, so the American competetion at that time, built by a worthless union, had a quality rating somewhere below "trash"... except that no one with any pride at all would disgrace a landfill with that Big 3 junk...
My Regal was a disappointment, but not a lemon...the A/C would not cool the front seat, and rear seat passengers would boil in the summer, as NO AIR got into the back, and the Buick dealer just said that everything was working fine...that was when I swore off GM products for the next 1000 years...almsot went back to Honda, pinching my own rear end for actually thinking that the worthless members of the UAW could actually make a product that had any quality, this being 13 years after my first 85 Honda...
But, wanting to keep the dollars here instead of over there, I then bought (leased, actually) a 2000 Intrepid...I must say I liked the car, I had a 75K mile lease with a 75K mile extended warranty...good thing, because everything began to break and shut down at 72K miles...the car saw the dealer 4 times for 4 different major problems between 72K and 74K miles...I was quite glad that I gave the car back at 75K miles...I really did wonder as I gave it back if it was destined to become one of those cars that simply fell apart at the low mileage of 72K, but I do not know what happened to it...
In 2004, the lack of a lumbar support in the 2001 Sable seat was taking its toll on my lower back, so I traded it on a 2004 Crown Vic, with lumbar support...thought of an import, but simply didn't do it...aside from being underpowered, the CV has been a decent car...has its rattles and weak points, but hit 95,000 miles today and still runs OK...
Also in 2004, turning in the Intrepid meant needing another car... my wife really wanted a pickup truck, so we looked...almost bought a used King Ranch F150, after my Regal I knew I could never buy a GM truck, but went with a 2004 Ram 1500...I was hoping that Dodge at least knew how to make a pickup truck, since their design rarely changes...So far, at 40K, a few warranty repairs but nothing major, so I will say that the truck is a good truck...
Now I am reading that maybe, just maybe, GM has been paying attention and its car quality has been improving...nice to read that...so, the thought of a possible DTS, or Lucerne (a discount version of the DTS with the same powertrain, i.e. HP over 250) or even an Impala/Malibu sounds like a possibility...
So, I may rail and scream about unions, union members, and how I believe that unions have destroyed the factory base more than any other factor, but, unbeknown to many, I have actually bought US union made products because I believe it was the right thing to do...
I criticize the union and its member's mentality because I see then as the problem...railing at the couple of overpaid CEOs will not change the product, but destroying the union and firing bad workers on the spot w/o some stupid 2-year union-imposed grievance process will probably mean attracting better workers who care about the product...the current union does not, IMO...it probably ranks up there in the "miracle" range that GM products are as good as some say they are...time will tell...
I wonder if rocky will ride with me if I buy a used Lexus LS430???
pinching my own rear end for actually thinking that the worthless members of the UAW could actually make a product that had any quality, this being 13 years after my first 85 Honda...
I'll try to restrain my emotions here. Anyway, do you blame your Regal's A/C problem on the people on the line who built it or the engineers who designed it?
You seem to blame everything wrong with a car with the workers on the line. They only put together what is provided to them in the parts bin. They have nothing to do with the design or purchase of the various parts. They are no different than the "worthless" members on the line at Toyota or the "worthless" members at a Honda assembly plant.
Glad to hear that your Ram truck is doing well. Let me know when you're ready for a new one and I'll probably be able to get you a big discount. There's a new Ram HEMI hybrid announced for 2010.
You are absolutely correct lemko, and it kills me that so many on here find nothing wrong with the idea. Now if their boss came in on monday morning and said "Hey Bill, we are cutting your pay in half, oh and don't let me forget you are going to lose health care benefits and pay double for those reduced benefits" How many of these armchair Quarterbacks, with all the answers would be up in arms having that done to them ???? I believe most, if not all !!! Getting them to admit it well is another thing !!!!!
Here is the major difference, Rock. I (well not me anymore) but my wife would say OK, give me my severance pay (in this case I beleive AA is offering about $90K) and she would get another job, probably with more pay.
Sure we would be pissed but she would just get another job. The big issue here is that most of these workers will never be able to find another job at the same pay UNLESS they do something to earn the higher wage. It could simply be move to another state/industry that offers higher pay for the same type of work (good luck on that). Or get some kind of skill or education that offers higher pay or perhaps even starting their own business. I know that is very hard to do since I come from a background also that said college was a waste of money (my dad said that!) or that running a business is something too risky or just too hard to do.
The big issue here is not the fault of the business's that are going bankrupt. It is the fact that we now compete with the world and we seem not to be able to compete in any industry.
There was a blurb awhile ago about job banks. Here is an article on what is happening to Chrysler job bankers. So if Chrysler workers in Job banks do not accept one of four offers they are let go.
Gotta remeber job banks were put into effect to allow robots and production improvements into the plants. This was when GM saw the imports starting to eat their cake with low cost vehicles.
Hundreds of laid-off Chrysler LLC workers in Sterling Heights are facing the reality of the landmark UAW contract they agreed to last fall as they find themselves choosing between out-of-state posts and the possibility of permanently losing their jobs.
If workers reject a certain number of offers -- four at Chrysler and General Motors Corp., two at Ford Motor Co. -- they can lose their jobs.
By asking workers to move or lose their jobs, automakers can clear the banks, an expensive employment protection program they set up in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to make factories more productive. Workers in the jobs bank receive full pay.
Your assesment is quite correct but at the same time a sad result of the unbalanced business environment we all live in. The corporate structures need to change so everyone is equally compensated. This balance will take many centuries to achieve!
It is not relegated only to Auto Manufacturers and Airlines. The new reality is constant change at a faster rate. Gone are the lifer jobs from the last century.
You are your own keeper. These former Big 3 need to change or die. Everyone is affected. Even UAW members AND non-members.
Yes, many report to work on Monday in all industries where the managers have marching orders to reduce headcounts and HR sets the meetings for Exit Interviews. Been on both sides...never easy either way. Just a cross road we all must take.
That awful UAW expecting jobs for life at high pay.
I'm curious about executive pay. I posted something recently about 1980 executive pay was 40 X the worker's and that had become something on the order of 400X the worker's pay rate. How does that match up with the usual conundrum solution that's because of world competition?
How does executive pay match up with those around the world? Has it been NAFTA'd like the worker pay? Have trucks from Mexico buying cheap Mexico diesel fuel polluting our air, reducing US truck companies loads and employment had the same impact on executive pay and number of jobs in the US? No.
The business world has had laws passed to protect itself and actually to allow them to gouge the worker even more. Look at bankruptcy laws changed a couple years ago to benefit card issuers. Guess who wrote those laws for our politicians?
Look at the current effort to change credit card methods. The change would require 21 days after billing before bill is due. The change would prevent companies from jumping rates on someone with a good reason. The change would prevent other techniques they use that parallel those of the payday type lenders.
Do people feel those industries need to compete with worldwide competition?
Somehow I perceive the UAW is hated because, well, just because. I'm not sure what it represents that some people harbor so much vitriol against the workers.
I, for only one, would not say I hate the UAW. I think the need for unions reflects unbalanced policies in the business world globally. If everyone was treated fairly, UAW would not exist.
The problem is the UAW administration just feeds the unbalance on the management side....and this model is now in an insurmountable tailspin... a quite long one but sooner or later...it hits.
Everyone represented by the UAW needs to plan for the inevitable now...do not be surprised when you loose even more than you hoped. Bleeding begets more bleeding.
Here's a quote from one worker, take it as you will:
"We're an insular group. We'll stay or go on our own terms. GM is going to have to pay us for either choice. The cost of doing business. When dinosaurs such as we are finished and done with, perhaps the idyllic, responsive GM which everyone here seems to want can finally exist unfettered. But until that time arrives, we'll still be on the job, business as usual, earning our pay and benefits."
I don't know if this is a joke or for real, but it seems rotten in any case.
Comments
I also requested that nobody tell you I would consider a UAW product, or I would NEVER hear the end of it...
Looks like somebody told you.....:):):):):)
Depends on what your skin is.
All different sheet metal, all different interior pieces, share V8's but Lucerne has 3800 still as base. Same suspensions but tuned differently. DTS has more uplevel features available.
You know sorta like the Camry and ES.
Check out this video from Ford.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What is different is the source integration into the plants. Here the subassemblies are built near the plant by the sources and shipped into the plants. So that is really what I get out of the story, sources are responsible for the installation of their own parts so they are right there if there are ever any problems with the part they supplied.
You might be right about the growing participation of women in the workforce, which shot up in the 1970s in response to inflation, but the trend to smaller families goes back much, much further & can't be tied to income inequality. The birth rate in the U.S. actually began to trend downward well before the Civil War - more than 150 years ago. While there have been periodic spikes - notably, the post-WWII baby boom - the long-term trend has been clearly down.
The reason is simple. In an agricultural society, large numbers of children are an asset. But they're an expense in a cash-based industrial society. Young people in wealthy countries postpone marriage until they've finished school & established themselves in their careers. Then when they do have kids, they tend to have 1 or 2 so that their children can have the best of everything.
This is true wherever you look. Once a country has developed to the point where a majority of its population no longer farms, its birth rate begins to drop. When you think of Italians, you think of large families. But Italy's birth rate is now well below the replacement rate. Japan is in even worse shape. I've seen predictions that before the end of this century, its population may fall by 50%.
For all of his mistakes, one of Bush's brilliant proposals was to allow workers under 50 to take some of their Social Security Tax $$$ and place it into a IRA-like retirement fund that would be theirs to invest and leave to their heirs...the short-sighted Democrats and half the Republicans could not stand to see the possibility of financial independence free of gov't intervention...
You can pay into SS for 45 years, and if you die before your first check, all that $$$ is lost forever...Bush' plan would have made that retirement $$$ YOURS...
Maybe we can talk about the UAW some.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When they get to Tierra del Fuego they can head over to South Africa. The world is full of small countries that are longing to come out of poverty. We have diverted some of the land in Columbia from growing coca to cut flowers. Most of the roses you get from the florist are Columbian grown. It has put pressure on Hawaii flower growers. Cutting into my profits or I should say making my losses even greater. That is life in this global economy. Striking with the idea you are EVER going back to the "good ole days" is crazy.
My grandparents were first-generation immigrants and it's said they have many children and number of children declines from each generation out.
Great retort.
And Toyota recently built a factory to make trucks in Occupied Mexico (down near San Antonio).
GM offers American Axle $200 million to end strike
Money would be used for UAW buyout program
DETROIT -- General Motors has agreed to pay $200 million to help with employee buyouts and “buy-downs” to help resolve a crippling strike at American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc.
In a regulatory filing today, GM said the agreement is “predicated upon an expedited resolution to the ongoing strike called by the International UAW against American Axle
True, but striking to keep what you have is not. AA wants to cut their salaries from $28/hr to $12. Not pay new hires $12 mind you, like the other suppliers, but CUT CURRENT EMPLOYEES SALARIES FROM $28 to $12.
AA is PROFITABLE, unlike Delphi.
Lets say for example GM closes its Malibu plants and builds one big one in Georgetown, Ky, right next door to Toyota (yes there is a method to my madness). I'm sure there must be some language in the contract about rules for plant closures, offering relocation for displaced workers, etc. All that will lead to one thing; unionization of the new plant (and unionization of the Toyota plant w/in 10 yrs., I suppose).
That is a big cut to current employees. Does anyone know what the UAW countered back with that was not accepted? Maybe AA will accept the $200 million from GM and buy off the older workers. If GM finds suppliers paying $12 to $15 per hour making the same product the 3600 AA workers will be out without anything. They walked out which gives them little protection other than whatever they have built up in retirement.
Even tho the South is right to work and generally nonunion, our GM Doraville and Ford Hapeville plants were unionized because they were part of a northern unionized company...Now that both of those plants have closed, I wonder just how much unionized labor we have now in GA...
I am also quite sure that the new Hyundai (Kia???) plant being built here will be nonunion...
If GM ever tried to open a US/Canada plant w/o union representation the entire UAW workforce would shut everything down, everywhere.
This is just one of the disadvantages of being an old player. Union wages/beni's, retiree pensions, health care, old plants, etc. True for every business.
Limited Time Offer!
People on both sides that are angry isn't the prescription for top quality automobiles either.
Regards,
OW
-The Rock
P.S. Bob, that is still shocking to me that you would buy anything "union made" since you dislike people like myself !!! :surprise:
If AA came in and offered $12 per hour to those who are currently making $28 per hour and said we are going to implement this the day the contract expires. Then you have a good case. If this was an opening offer and the UAW dug in their heels at the current $28 per hour, I have little sympathy. There is nothing in our laws that say you should always get a pay raise at contract time. If the UAW is willing to push the last bit of union manufacturing off shore, I guess that is the way it is. The Japanese, Koreans and Germans have come to realize they can get cars built here in the USA and be competitive with the labor market in their own countries.
However, if you're an older established guy with a wife and a few kids and your oldest is about to go away to college, a 58% pay cut is really going to hurt.
What's a guy to do? Is he supposed to forgo having a family in anticipation that it'll no longer be cost-effective to do so?
Is a man supposed to save every dime and die of a heart attack working three low-paying jobs just to get by? I'm living to THRIVE not just survive! Shoot if all I'm doing is living to work to make some other guy rich beyond the dreams of avarice, I might as well get the .45 out of the nightstand drawer and say adios!
Is a man supposed to spend all his disposable income and free time going back to school to earn a degree that may or may not get him that magical position that'll allow him to spend time with his family while all along his wife's been having an affair due to his absence and junior has joined the Latin Kings or MS-13 due to the lack of a male role model in the house?
As far as not being required to join a union, Here in RI (as Union friendly a state as you can get) there is NO requirement that I belong to the union. But, as acrimonious as union/management relationships can be in a union shop, you are at risk of becoming a scapegoat, as if management were to discipline you, and you felt they were just picking on you, there would be nobody to back you up. Also, and I imagine the same could be said in a Southern union shop, you risk being ostracized by your co-workers, as you will receive the same contract benefits that the union workers get, only you pay no dues (although I believe if I were to tell my local to screw, the equivalent of my weekly dues will still be deducted from my pay and given to charity, so as to discourage people from getting that extra $10-12 bucks a week in their paycheck and riding the coattails of the contract). And YES I do believe this forces some people to say well, just give it to the union so I get protection, and they reluctantly go with the flow.
I learned at about 20 years old the advantage to being part of the Union. I was not a member of the CWA at Pacific Telephone. It was very low key and I don't think I was ever really asked to join. I got in situation where the boss wanted to get rid of me and the CWA guys jumped to my defense. Needless to say I have been a paying member ever since. The CWA was really not a real strong Union. In my 46 years in the Telephone business my only strike was with the CWA. 37 years a Teamster and we never walked out. That to me is good Union management. Which overall the Alaska Teamsters had.
Actually it is quite fine for a high school education just getting started in life. Much better than $7 or $8 for most jobs requiring a high school education.
That is a time in life when they should be making decisions about their future. Get that education that will allow them to earn the good life. OR....Earn or learn a valuable skill.
Every person flipping burgers, selling shoes, and picking cabbage would like to earn $28+ per hour with full bennefits. So what makes the guy hanging bumpers so special? Earning as much or more as the Nurse with 4 years of college and dealing with human lives daily. Or the cop, fire fighter, teacher, blah, blah, blah...! Of course, that has been happening at UAW shops for many moons. Management allowed it to happen instead of nipping it in the bud. Now the time for a reality check has come. Don't expect to walk out the door of high school and start a job allowing you to "THRIVE" in the good life.
>"What's a guy to do? Is he supposed to forgo having a family in anticipation that it'll no longer be cost-effective to do so?"
Yes, we should not take on any more responsibility than we can afford. If he is a $12 dollar an hour guy, he should expect to lead a $12 life.
>"Is a man supposed to spend all his disposable income and free time going back to school to earn a degree that may or may not get him that magical position that'll allow him to spend time with his family while all along his wife's been having an affair due to his absence and junior has joined the Latin Kings or MS-13 due to the lack of a male role model in the house? "
Might be time for the MAN to face his responsibilities. Do whatever it takes to support that responsibility. The career he chose, the wife he chose, and the kids he had are HIS responsibility.
>"However, if you're an older established guy with a wife and a few kids and your oldest is about to go away to college, a 58% pay cut is really going to hurt."
Agreed And it is ridiculous for management to do that to the established employees that have been earning or promised that higher wage. Management agreed to it and they should stick to their obligation. However, NEW HIRES should/could expect the same pay/bennefits as the same type job in any other industry. What is so wrong with that?
The original role of unions was to ensure fair treatment of the employees, decent working conditions and overtime pay for overtime hours. The UAW has pushed that envelope entirely too far and the Big 3 and their subsidiaries have allowed it to happen.
UAW appears to be going to continue pushing the issue until that $28 dollar job becomes a $7 job in Mexico. And people will be rushing back there and standing in line for them.
Kip
I don't dislike YOU, I think unions are dead or dying on the vine, because their members have no understanding of business, simply because the UAW cannot just get higher wages for unskilled work, expecting the price of an Impala to reach $40K and expect their CUSTOMERS, their real bosses, to buy the product...if the buyers won't buy at the listed price, and you can't decrease the price of your supplies and materials, then labor costs get cut, simply because there ARE people who would LOVE to work for $15 an hour, because their lack of skills has them flipping burgers for $8 an hour...it is the MARKET that will kill the UAW, along with its own greed and ignorance...
You also forget that as much as I admire Honda and Toy for quality products, and they were the best cars I ever owned, since 1998 I have owned a Regal, Intrepid, Sable, and now a Crown Vic and a Ram 1500, all bought new except the Sable...My purchases have probably actually SUPPORTED the UAW with my money than your silly union rah-rah sticking your head into the sand...
I really do WANT the American manufacturing base to thrive, but my comments for YEARS have been that with the level of automobile quality constantly decreasing due to union ignorance, militancy, subtle sabotage and the intentional making of trash products , it is no wonder that factories are moving away, as the only way to stop the union was to bite off its head and take the jobs away, as the union only desires to raise its pay, BUT HAS NO REGARD WHATSOVER ABOUT THE PRODUCT THEY MAKE...THEY MADE JUNK FOR 30 YEARS AND HAVE THE GALL TO GET OFFENDED WHEN SMART CONSUMERS TAKE THEIR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE...that is why the union should be destroyed...once silly union work rules have been removed from our thinking processes, and rotten employees can be fored at will, then, and only then, will superior quality return to American cars...
So, while the best cars I ever owned were 4 Hondas between 1985 and 1998, I have owned Big 3 union cars since then, over a decade by now...I may scream and yell about the union, and I am confident about its demise in the near future, but I still support the American factory base, doing what I can...
Most folks who jump down my throat for criticizing unions (usually those who have NO comprehension about business, just those who are brainwashed by the entitlement mentality, thinking that paychecks just come in the mail) have not taken THEIR hard earned money and bought 4 new union-made cars in the last 10 years, between $90-100,000.00 total value...
That is my story, and I'm stickin' to it.....
Regards,
OW
That's about the perfect time frame for Hondas. It's a wonder given that history that you managed to go back into the domestic fold.
I'll give the domestics every shot next time around on a new vehicle but that will likely be a while. They should start on a roomy convertible now so they'll be ready for me.
Frankly, I still believe that my Hondas were better built and better cars than the vehicles I have purchased since 1998...however, I have not experienced any lemons, just little annoying things that make me or my wife say, under our breath, "we never had these little problems with the Hondas"...
I have not been in any import since 1998, so my feelings about imports are simply from 13 years of, IMO, some of the best automotive products I have ever seen, especially when you consider that the Hondas were bought after the boat-anchor, union-made junk of the 70s and 80s, so the American competetion at that time, built by a worthless union, had a quality rating somewhere below "trash"... except that no one with any pride at all would disgrace a landfill with that Big 3 junk...
My Regal was a disappointment, but not a lemon...the A/C would not cool the front seat, and rear seat passengers would boil in the summer, as NO AIR got into the back, and the Buick dealer just said that everything was working fine...that was when I swore off GM products for the next 1000 years...almsot went back to Honda, pinching my own rear end for actually thinking that the worthless members of the UAW could actually make a product that had any quality, this being 13 years after my first 85 Honda...
But, wanting to keep the dollars here instead of over there, I then bought (leased, actually) a 2000 Intrepid...I must say I liked the car, I had a 75K mile lease with a 75K mile extended warranty...good thing, because everything began to break and shut down at 72K miles...the car saw the dealer 4 times for 4 different major problems between 72K and 74K miles...I was quite glad that I gave the car back at 75K miles...I really did wonder as I gave it back if it was destined to become one of those cars that simply fell apart at the low mileage of 72K, but I do not know what happened to it...
In 2004, the lack of a lumbar support in the 2001 Sable seat was taking its toll on my lower back, so I traded it on a 2004 Crown Vic, with lumbar support...thought of an import, but simply didn't do it...aside from being underpowered, the CV has been a decent car...has its rattles and weak points, but hit 95,000 miles today and still runs OK...
Also in 2004, turning in the Intrepid meant needing another car... my wife really wanted a pickup truck, so we looked...almost bought a used King Ranch F150, after my Regal I knew I could never buy a GM truck, but went with a 2004 Ram 1500...I was hoping that Dodge at least knew how to make a pickup truck, since their design rarely changes...So far, at 40K, a few warranty repairs but nothing major, so I will say that the truck is a good truck...
Now I am reading that maybe, just maybe, GM has been paying attention and its car quality has been improving...nice to read that...so, the thought of a possible DTS, or Lucerne (a discount version of the DTS with the same powertrain, i.e. HP over 250) or even an Impala/Malibu sounds like a possibility...
So, I may rail and scream about unions, union members, and how I believe that unions have destroyed the factory base more than any other factor, but, unbeknown to many, I have actually bought US union made products because I believe it was the right thing to do...
I criticize the union and its member's mentality because I see then as the problem...railing at the couple of overpaid CEOs will not change the product, but destroying the union and firing bad workers on the spot w/o some stupid 2-year union-imposed grievance process will probably mean attracting better workers who care about the product...the current union does not, IMO...it probably ranks up there in the "miracle" range that GM products are as good as some say they are...time will tell...
I wonder if rocky will ride with me if I buy a used Lexus LS430???
I'll try to restrain my emotions here. Anyway, do you blame your Regal's A/C problem on the people on the line who built it or the engineers who designed it?
You seem to blame everything wrong with a car with the workers on the line. They only put together what is provided to them in the parts bin. They have nothing to do with the design or purchase of the various parts. They are no different than the "worthless" members on the line at Toyota or the "worthless" members at a Honda assembly plant.
Glad to hear that your Ram truck is doing well. Let me know when you're ready for a new one and I'll probably be able to get you a big discount. There's a new Ram HEMI hybrid announced for 2010.
Here is the major difference, Rock. I (well not me anymore) but my wife would say OK, give me my severance pay (in this case I beleive AA is offering about $90K) and she would get another job, probably with more pay.
Sure we would be pissed but she would just get another job. The big issue here is that most of these workers will never be able to find another job at the same pay UNLESS they do something to earn the higher wage. It could simply be move to another state/industry that offers higher pay for the same type of work (good luck on that). Or get some kind of skill or education that offers higher pay or perhaps even starting their own business. I know that is very hard to do since I come from a background also that said college was a waste of money (my dad said that!) or that running a business is something too risky or just too hard to do.
The big issue here is not the fault of the business's that are going bankrupt. It is the fact that we now compete with the world and we seem not to be able to compete in any industry.
Gotta remeber job banks were put into effect to allow robots and production improvements into the plants. This was when GM saw the imports starting to eat their cake with low cost vehicles.
Hundreds of laid-off Chrysler LLC workers in Sterling Heights are facing the reality of the landmark UAW contract they agreed to last fall as they find themselves choosing between out-of-state posts and the possibility of permanently losing their jobs.
If workers reject a certain number of offers -- four at Chrysler and General Motors Corp., two at Ford Motor Co. -- they can lose their jobs.
By asking workers to move or lose their jobs, automakers can clear the banks, an expensive employment protection program they set up in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to make factories more productive. Workers in the jobs bank receive full pay.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080510/AUTO01/805100346/-1/A- RCHIVE
It is not relegated only to Auto Manufacturers and Airlines. The new reality is constant change at a faster rate. Gone are the lifer jobs from the last century.
You are your own keeper. These former Big 3 need to change or die. Everyone is affected. Even UAW members AND non-members.
Yes, many report to work on Monday in all industries where the managers have marching orders to reduce headcounts and HR sets the meetings for Exit Interviews. Been on both sides...never easy either way. Just a cross road we all must take.
Regards,
OW
I'm curious about executive pay. I posted something recently about 1980 executive pay was 40 X the worker's and that had become something on the order of 400X the worker's pay rate. How does that match up with the usual conundrum solution that's because of world competition?
How does executive pay match up with those around the world? Has it been NAFTA'd like the worker pay? Have trucks from Mexico buying cheap Mexico diesel fuel polluting our air, reducing US truck companies loads and employment had the same impact on executive pay and number of jobs in the US? No.
The business world has had laws passed to protect itself and actually to allow them to gouge the worker even more. Look at bankruptcy laws changed a couple years ago to benefit card issuers. Guess who wrote those laws for our politicians?
Look at the current effort to change credit card methods. The change would require 21 days after billing before bill is due. The change would prevent companies from jumping rates on someone with a good reason. The change would prevent other techniques they use that parallel those of the payday type lenders.
Do people feel those industries need to compete with worldwide competition?
Somehow I perceive the UAW is hated because, well, just because. I'm not sure what it represents that some people harbor so much vitriol against the workers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The problem is the UAW administration just feeds the unbalance on the management side....and this model is now in an insurmountable tailspin... a quite long one but sooner or later...it hits.
Everyone represented by the UAW needs to plan for the inevitable now...do not be surprised when you loose even more than you hoped. Bleeding begets more bleeding.
Regards,
OW
Are you saying the UAW is responsible for the exorbitant executive pay in this country which doesn't occur in other countries?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"We're an insular group. We'll stay or go on our own terms. GM is going to have to pay us for either choice. The cost of doing business. When dinosaurs such as we are finished and done with, perhaps the idyllic, responsive GM which everyone here seems to want can finally exist unfettered. But until that time arrives, we'll still be on the job, business as usual, earning our pay and benefits."
I don't know if this is a joke or for real, but it seems rotten in any case.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW