Maintenance hurts more than helps?

dwwebstedwwebste Member Posts: 9
edited February 2014 in General
My father has warned me not to change the coolant
nor tranny fluid in my two cars (89 Celebrity and
87 Cutlass Ciera both with 3 speed autos) because
removing the pan gasket will cause the tranny to
leak form then on out and if you flush the coolant,
any debris in there could be plugging up tiny
holes that are no big deal, but when the debris is
removed, now you have coolant leaks. I was curious
to know anyone's opinion on these "myths".

Comments

  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    Changing the transmission fluid does not automatically cause leaks. Usually transmissions that have their pans dropped and their gaskets changed leak because the bolts for the pan are either too loose or too tight when they're put back on. Loose bolts will cause oil to seep through between the transmission body and the pan. Tight bolts could crack, tear or weaken the gasket to the point that oil leaks from the gasket. The trick is getting the bolts tightened firmly, but not too firmly.

    The coolant thing I'm not sure about.
  • mrimri Member Posts: 7
    I have heard that transmission theory before, i.e. leave it in a "factory sealed" condition unless you notice a problem. It's only anectdotal evidence, but some people swear that they never have transmission problems (leaks, etc) until AFTER they've had service. For the radiator fluid, I'd check the color and have it's protection level tested. As long as it's still good i leave it in.
  • cobra98cobra98 Member Posts: 76
    Although maintenance should be performed, I've always said that once you open a seal/gasket from the factory, it leaks!! I know this obviously can't be the truth (at least I hope not), but I've replaced the rear axle gasket 3 times and nearly sand blasted the carrier trying to make it clean, and the damn thing ALWAYS leaks!!!! I torqued the bolts, tried it with/without permatex, etc... Just my experience...
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    David,
    While a lot of manufacturers claim that their automatics don't require fluid changes, I would not go over 50,000 miles without a change. I use Mobil 1 ATF in my Pathfinder and change it every 50,000. No leaks or failures at 108,000 miles. I would NEVER exceed the manufacturer's service interval on coolant. Even if the freeze point is good the anti corrosion additives weaken and the coolant becomes more and more acidic, attacking the gaskets, seals, and alloy parts. If the system has been maintained properly their should be no leaks to unplug. Does your father work for a radiator rebuilder? :)
  • dwwebstedwwebste Member Posts: 9
    My father has no official mechanical training, but experience leads him to preach what he has seen. The coolant in the olds is green and at a good level, but the coolant in the chevy is brown. Also, when we bought the old in March, the guy who inspected it told me that there could be a leak around the pan gasket. I checked with the previous owner and found out service had been done that December (3 months prior). I have always wondered if the shop man was just incompetant, or if the changing of fluid is prone to cause leaks. Thanks to all so far for your advice!

    David
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    If the person who services the auto trans knows what he is doing you will not have a leak!

    Also, radiator coolant gets bad with age - Change it! It is doubtful that you would ever have a problem.
  • dhoffdhoff Member Posts: 282
    One 'theory' I have heard regarding changing transmission fluid (either M/T or A/T) is to NOT change it if the car has over 60,000 miles on it.

    The rationale behind this is that transmission fluids have very aggressive detergent properties. If a transmission has gone 60,000 miles without a change it likely has formed deposits because the old fluid cannot hold any more impurities in suspension. When the fluid is changed, the new fluid dislodges the deposits and can lead to bearing failure or valves and passages clogging.

    I have no idea if this is in fact true, but it sounds plausible. Anyone here have any experience with this?

    Dave
  • clintonjohnclintonjohn Member Posts: 99
    I change the coolant every two years and in looking down the radiator opening, the channels still look clean and open. my girlfriend hadn't changed her coolant ever in her '93 mustang. when i went to change the fluid, looking in the radiator, there was tons of lime build up in the channels. my theory is that many radiator failures are due to these channels getting clogged. while old coolant will always retain its cooling properties, the additives that inhibit corrosion do deteriorate and wear out. do it yourself for a $4 bottle of antifreeze or $40 for a professional every other year. small change compared to a failed radiator. will it guarantee to prevent a failure? no, but in my mind its a cheap preventative job.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    Sorry, I just had to say it!
  • dwwebstedwwebste Member Posts: 9
    I posted this topic because I have 2 cars at 60K miles, that I bought them at 40K. So the likelyhood of much maintenance being done on them has probably been very little. I greatly appreciate everyone's opinions. I am just unsure that I should mess with anything, until I do have a good reason to go messing around with things. I apologize to anyone who thinks that maintenance is a dumb thing to talk about, but that is why I am here. Sorry!

    David
  • gusgus Member Posts: 254
    Nothing to apologize for.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    I usually drive my vehicles 150,000 to 200,000 miles before selling and I race off road motorcycles which I don't like to break.

    Maintenance is KEY! If you want stuff to last, MAINTAIN THE HECK OUT OF IT..... Follow the severe service chart in your owners manual.
  • ralph124cralph124c Member Posts: 36
    Remember the old myth about changing the oli on an old car? It went like this...if the oil has'nt been changed regularly-don't do it, because the gunk on the inside of the engine will break loose and clog up the oil passages, leading to bearing failure. I guess this goes back to the days before high-detergent oils-I am old enough to remeber seeing non-detergent motor oils for sale-some brand name like "Blus Sapphire"-I remember it was very cheap-less than 1/2 the price of the detergent oil...why did people use the stuff?
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    ralph,

    "less than 1/2 the price of the detergent oil"

    You answered your own question :) Some people will only see $$$.
  • dwwebstedwwebste Member Posts: 9
    Ralph, then are you saying that even though it may have been 62K on the odometer, I should still change the tranny fluid (I have decided to change the coolant for sure!)? Are there any places that offer guarantees that the tranny won't begin to leak? I think I should get it changed, because I NEED this car to last at least 5 more years.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    Any reputable shop should guarantee their work.
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    I, too have encountered auto trans pan leaks with various gasket types, even when taking great care to clean the mating surfaces and carefully tighten the bolts in sequence. Especially on GM cars. Subsequently, I've had very good luck with Loctite Type 598 "Ultra Black" silicone sealant. This is available at most parts houses (a ~$5/tube is more than enough) and has a filler to give it a much heavier consistency than the familiar silicone sealants. Follow the instructions, using it without any cork or composit gasket material. It's also good for valve covers and should be OK on differential case covers.

    Coolant Change....These guys are absolutely right that the coolant will deteriorate even though the freeze protection remains OK. Please don't exceed 30 months without a change. Unfortunately, the GM (Harrison) radiators are likely to deteriorate beyond practical repair after 8 to 10 years even with good cooling system maintenance. The fellow who said an old Harrison radiator may leak if you flush the contamination out of its corroded spots is quite correct....but I don't think you want to depend on "dirt to keep the holes plugged." Suggest that a reputable radiator shop perform a phosphoric acid flush, pressure test, and do a visual inspection. Some solder repair may put you back in business but, unfortunately, you should also be prepared for the possibility of buying a new radiator or radiator core.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    Agree with you on the ultra, although I use the "ultra grey".

    Have to take issue with you on coolant change, the new "Dex-cool" orange low silicate coolant is good for 5 years or 150,000 miles. I switch all vehicles to it nowadays.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    I always take mileage claims of something that has nothing to do with mileage with a grain of salt. Coolant is not affected by mileage; instead, it's engine hours that make a difference. If you drive for 5 hours, you have put a certain amount of wear on an engine and its fluids, and in fact, 5 hours of 20mph city stop-and-go is a hell of a lot harder on an engine and its coolant than 5 hours at 65mph on an interstate. But if you go by mileage, it's 100 vs 325, and the person going by mileage would be less likely to change the coolant if they did mostly city driving.
  • dwwebstedwwebste Member Posts: 9
    I have two points: the first is that the orange coolants are not meant for car's radiators that are not aluminum. Supposedly, this can cause more harm than good (believe I saw this on this website). Second, I cannot afford to have a new radiator, so if it leaks, then I am in big trouble. That is why I am scared to change it. I have decided not to mess with the tranny fluid from too many horror stories, even though it has been 62K miles.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    kcram Not miles only - That's why they say 5 years or 150,000


    dwwebste - put 50,000 miles using Orange Dexcool on my brass/copper radiator in my F350 Diesel with no problems. What's your radiator made of?
  • fuzzyfuzzy Member Posts: 1
    for what it's worth... you can do a complete tranny fluid change without dropping the pan. why hasn't any one mentioned this? sure, the filter doesn't get changed and so forth, but at least you have new fluid working for you instead of the 60k old fluid. If you're *that* worried about leaks, money, etc. this is your solution.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    markbuck,

    I wouldn't believe 5 years either. Name one fluid you're willing to leave in an engine for 5 years untouched. My point was, regardless of how many or how few miles you have driven, the deciding factor for maintenance should be how long the engine was running in engine hours. GM even added an engine hour meter on the new Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra to accomodate this.

    For example, Driver 1 does nothing but stop-and-go city driving just 20 miles a day at an average speed of 15mph. After 5 years, he has only driven 36,500 miles. Driver 2 drives exclusively highway for 90 miles a day at 65mph. Driver 2's car will have gone 164,250 miles in 5 years. But in both cases, the engine has operated the same amount of time, and both cars should receive servicing at the same time, regardless of their odometer reading.

    It's like the "100,000 miles before tuneups" claim. It's marketing - it has nothing to do with the car you have or how you drive. I'm sure 75% of the car owners in the US would have to say yes to at least one of the conditions that require you to use the heavy duty maintenance schedule in the owner's manual, which requires much more frequent servicing than those kind of claims would imply.
  • atcersatcers Member Posts: 26
    For what it's worth I have a 91 Olds with 113k miles on it's A/T. I just had the fluid and filter changed along with a "NEW" pan gasket, not one little drip! GM makes very good transmissions but they need to be serviced on a regular basis. I recently read an article on cars.com that stated "automatic transmission failure is the single most common high priced repair that a vehicle owner is likely to encounter" the reason why was "fluid breakdown, due to lack of proper maintenance". I say change the fluid!
  • dwwebstedwwebste Member Posts: 9
    Marckbuck, I don't know what my radiator is made of, but I had just read that there are three types of coolant: green, orange, and yellow. And you should put the correct color in your car, because new radiators are not meant for old green coolant and old radiators are not meant for the now orange stuff. But that is all hearsay, for I can not give any references.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    After all the reading on the new coolant I have done, I will run the Dex-cool for 5 years or 150,000. The OTR diesels are putting in blank coolant filters when they run this stuff.....
  • rmarinormarino Member Posts: 3
    I took my 85RX7 for an oil change and they told me that the transmission fluid needed to be changed ($99.00). This was the same price they charged for changing the fluid in my van that has an automatic trans. This struck me as being odd, so I declined. The RX7 has 76,000mi and to my knowledge, the trans. fluid has never been changed. Well, being an idiot, I asked some "car" experts and got 5 different opinions. Some said it should be changes every 20K, some said never, some said $99 was a good deal, yet one garage said they could do it for $22. What the hell is going on. By the way, the dealer said every 25K.
    What the hell is going on here. Does anyone really know or is this like the debate surrounding the big boom theory. HELP
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    What does the owners manual say?
  • bubbabubba Member Posts: 1
    Regarding transmission fluid:
    A few years back, I bought a '77 Datsun B210 with a 3-speed automatic and about 100k miles. When I finally checked the tranny fluid (didn't do too thorough a pre-purchase inspection -- funny what you'll do when the price is right and you're broke) I found that the fluid had never been changed. Instead of a nice red, the fluid was a light gray. A couple of mechanics told me _not_ to change the fluid. I seem to remember their logic as being "the tranny is very worn, but because the burnt fluid has totally lost its viscosity, it compensates for the wear. If you put fresh fluid in a worn tranny, you're likely to get slippage."
    I have no idea whether they were correct, but I drove that rust bucket for another 3 years (and 40k) -- and it wasn't the tranny that forced the car's retirement. Dealing with a failing steering box, a thrashed carburetor, a shot suspension, and a broken starter switch finally got too frustrating and I junked it (man, I miss that car).
  • LuzerLuzer Member Posts: 119
    If it leaks, add more.

    Most cars don't have to drop the pan for tranny fluid. They have a bolt - like changing oil.
    Except the Tranny bolt is a lot tighter.

    Coolant was changed in my cars every 2 to 3 yrs (sometimes 1 1/2 years when bored) Just empty & re-fill, never flushed.

    Harrison Radiator leaked after 9 years on my '89 Corolla. (GM and Toyota Joint Venture).

    My '88 Corolla has a leak somewhere but not in the radiator (Denso Radiator - I think). Still original, but I lose a quart every 6 months. (Add a pint every few months).

    Change the fluids!!
  • gozinggozing Member Posts: 4
    I have never understood why one should pay someone to drain automatic transmission fluid out and replace it unless water, motor oil or dirt have gotten in through some mistaken action and contaminated it.
    Transmission fluid should not "wear" out or "lose" viscocity from normal operations.
    Usually, when an automatic transmission fails it is because of a leak. Generally, the leaks are around the gasket which gets old and cracks. Stop the leak and the transmission will often work again. When a torque converter goes inside the transmission, it raises other questions too. These units are supposedly sealed so changing the fluid in the transmission does not have any effect on preserving the torque converters internal fluid.
    Once, I purchased a used GMC Motor Home with a 350 engine. The transmission leaked, and of course when the fluid gets low, the transmission does not work correctly. All the transmission shops I contacted, big ones, small ones and dealers, told me I needed to rebuild the transmission and replace the torque converter. No GM dealers could or would just "fix" the leak. Luckily, I noticed a guarantee being offered by Jiffy Lub that guaranteed no leaks after they changed the fluid and filter. Of course, it leaked afterwards, but when they were between a rock and a hard place, they got GM to confess that that model always leaked UNLESS a "special" corrective gasket was installed. Once, they installed the gasket that was known only to God and GM headquarters, no more leaks and the transmission ran fine and the torque converter kept right on doing its thing without being replaced or repaired. So, I recommend doing nothing until a transmission does not work the way you expect it to. Then, check the fluid level with the car on a level surface and check it both hot and cold. Add just enough automatic transmission fluid (The RIGHT ONE FOR YOUR CAR TO BE SURE) to get the fluid at the proper level. Then head to a Jiffy Lub or equivalent and request a filter and transmission fluid change and have a new gasket installed at the same time. If that does not fix the automatic transmission, trade or sell the car, transmission problems and all. Torque converters are too EXPENSIVE to make it a good deal to install one! Also, go to a good driving school and learn to drive right. If the torque converter goes, it is probably because you don't know how to drive a car right. You'll do it to the next car too. Once, should be enough.
  • clintonjohnclintonjohn Member Posts: 99
    That's great...scamming someone else, so you can get out of paying for your own repair. Ain't human nature grand?
  • jotjot Member Posts: 4
    I have changed coolant based on manufacturers recommendation . The only problem has been the loss of cooling fins due to salt.
  • jeffreyjeffrey Member Posts: 17
    dhoff (re #7)--ATF...highly detergent? 'Tain't so; it's an old backyardmechanic's tale. ATF has very little detergent in it--at least not nearly as much as engine oil--because engine oil has to deal with the horribly filthy products of COMBUSTION. I don't believe the deposits-loosened theory. If an AT has 60K-miles on it, change the fluid! It's worn out (ie oxidized).
  • miesnermiesner Member Posts: 1
    I have changed the tranny fluid with no problems on a Camaro with 112K and another with 156K. However, when I changed the coolant on the one with 156K I believe some of the good "gunk" came out causing a leak and now the car overheats.
  • meechiganmeechigan Member Posts: 5
    I'd be interested in more info on whether the long-life (orange) coolant can be used in older cars (i.e., my '93 Bonneville). It's only $6/gal at the local Murray's Auto Parts, and if it saved one coolant change/flush, it'd be well worth it. TIA.
  • KAURELIOKAURELIO Member Posts: 20
    I have a 1989 Aerostar with 172,000 miles on it. I have never changed the AT fluid. I do have a very slow leak and have to add now and then. The rear end fluid has never been changed. I would have not changed the antifreeze except for the occasional radiator hose blowing. I DO add a can of anti-rust every year. Folks are right, the antifreeze doesn't wear out, but the anti-rust does, it's less than a buck a year if you can find it. The last time I saw some was at Auto-Zone.

    I try to change my oil every 3-4,000 miles. I used to do it every 2,500, but marriage and kids take more time...

    My Dad was a mechanic in the old days ('40s and '50s) and taught me these things. He still works on his cars at 71.
  • clintonjohnclintonjohn Member Posts: 99
    dot-$2500 for a 10 year old Aries seems awfully steep to me. These cars weren't any marvels of automotive quality. In my opinion, you'd be better off putting that same amount into buying a ten year old Toyota Camry with 100,000 miles. I'm not a mechanic, but I would imagine that a cracked engine would require at the bare minimum a replacement block. You can get remanufactured engines for I believe under a grand. I don't know what the labor would cost. Overall, everything will probably cost more than the car is worth, but then you'd have a good engine so if all else is ok, it may be worth your while.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    Is it possible that the thickness of the metal that the tranny pan is made out of determines whether or not it warps, and thus, if it will leak when replaced after x miles? Or maybe the quality of the metal? Although I believe "steel" is "steel" in most cases. (no pun intended)
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