LexusRX 400h Hybrid Battery Failure

johnt7

Our 6 mos old 2007 Lexus RX400h has apparently experienced a hybrid battery failure. I'm told that this is an $8000 part and we are the first in-warranty hybrid battery failure that Toyota/Lexus has experienced.

Has anyone heard of this?

larsb

1. Sounds about right on the price.

2. You are not the first. You might be the first RX400h, but you are not Toyota's first hybrid battery replaced under warranty.

Good luck with the replacement and I hope they give you a suitable loaner for the long repair delay.

lexusowner2

I experienced battery failure in a 2.5 year old RX400h with 29,000 miles. I was told by the service people that they have seen a "handful" of battery failures. I live in Houston with an extremely hot climate, so that may be a factor. This raises big questions to me about the battery reliability. With a small sample, they have already seen a number of failures in a short amount of time? This could imply the probability of battery failure is much higher than previously thought.

Also, when battery failure occurs, it can be very dangerous. The car totally shuts down, power steering, engine, the works. My failure occurred at 60 mph on the highway, and I was lucky I was able to coast to a stop on an inner median. It was a very dangerous situation. Has anyone else experienced this?

larsb

Heat is not a failure factor. Government fleets of hybrids were tested in the hottest parts of Arizona and the cars averaged 160,000 miles and had no failures.

I live in Phoenix and have owned both an HCH and now a TCH and have combined 46,000 miles on those two cars and have had zero battery issues.

The "complete" battery replacements for any of the hybrids are few and far between.

So far to my knowledge there have been zero reported accidents due to battery failures.

Not to say it can't or wont happen, but it's really far less likely than just having a normal traffic accident.

ktwsocal

This just happened to us also. We have a 2006 model wit 54K miles. We are in humid Louisiana and until now no problems. We were on freeway going 65 and the car just shut off. It's now at the dealership being repaired. I shudder at what the bill will be.

stevedebi

"This just happened to us also. We have a 2006 model wit 54K miles. We are in humid Louisiana and until now no problems. We were on freeway going 65 and the car just shut off. It's now at the dealership being repaired. I shudder at what the bill will be. "

The hybrid parts are covered by a 7 year, 120K warranty. It should cost you nothing to have any part, including the battery, replaced or repaired.

stevedebi

"The regional lexus rep. informed my dealer that these batteries have not failed anywhere else in the country. I know this total not true based on the following forum posts. "

You don't indicate where you live, if you live in the United States, you are in luck:

It doesn't make any difference if yours is the only one. You don't say where you live, but at a minimum you have an 8 year / 100K warranty on your hybrid components. The dealer should know this. CARB states are 10 years and 150K.

This has nothing to do with your 3 year / 36K warranty on the other parts of your 2006 vehicle.

This is from the Toyota website, but it covers all Toyota products:

"Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet for details."

Toyota Hybrid Warranty

Here is the Edmunds website:
"And there doesn't seem much reason to worry. All the hybrid-specific components in every hybrid vehicle currently on the market are covered under warranty for eight years/100,000 miles or 10 years/150,000 miles, depending on the state, but these components have been shown to have a much longer lifespan in testing. "

Hybrid Costs

I went to the Lexus site and noticed that they indicate that hybrid components are covered in certain "Platinum" extended warranties. While this is true, it is deceptive - those parts are covered by the basic hybrid warranty, regardless of "extended warranties".

Lexus pays for the repairs, not the dealer, so they should not give you any trouble.

BTW: If possible, find a different Lexus dealer, those Bozos don't even know their warranties (or they are trying to get $$ out of you in a dishonest fashion, which is worse).

NOTE: If you have already paid, contact Lexus for reimbursement. Tell 'em you'll call in the FBI to enforce Federal law!

george118

I have 2007 Lexus RX400h - hybrid. It has gotten water damage to the hybrid system and we do not know how. It was not flooded but was outside during a heavy rainstorm in the Boston area on 9/6/08. The windows were not open. The "Check Hybrid System" warning light came on within driving 5-6 miles of starting to drive on the Monday after the rainstorm. There had been no sign of any water in the passenger part of the car. I stopped for gas and after that the car would not start. Lexus examined it and said there was significant water damage to the hybrid system (hybrid batteries are under the rear seats). Lexus Service said the interior of the car below the carpets was all wet & that it "looked like I had parked in a river". The car was not parked in a place where that much water could accumulate or pool to flood the car. The insurance company wants to repair it, but Lexus Service says it "should be totaled", that it will never be the same again, even after repairs, that I will always have problems with it, etc.

The car was previously rear-ended and was repaired at body shop authorized by my insurance company to repair Lexus cars. It's possible that that body shop failed to seal something properly. But Lexus Service has at least initially said that they cannot determine how so much water got in the car to cause such extensive damage. This seems odd to me. If Lexus Service & the Insurance Company can not figure out how this happened, then I really think it does not make sense to repair the car, as it's likely to happen again.

The car is usually garaged, but has been outside all summer due to other stuff being in the garage. Car has been unaffected by rain up to this point and I have loved the car.

I have 2 questions: #1: Has anyone else experienced problems with this car on any Lexus getting water in the car as a result on just heavy rain that somehow got into the car and could not get out thereby accumulating on the floor of the car and causing significant electrical damage? Specifically in the hybrid models?

#2: Lexus Service man said his advice about "totaling the car" was "off the record". This really has me annoyed. I paid Lexus $50,000 for a car that has suffered a catastrophic failure because it was left outside in a rainstorm and they will not go 'on record' to help me to get the insurance company to total the car. Has anyone had similar unsatisfactory experience with Lexus Service in such a situation and what advice do you have?

rx400h2

I own a Lexus RX400h - hybrid. I took it in for a oil change were the car setout side overnight in the rain. I thought the service people had left the sunroof opened or cracked because I smelled carpet mildew coming from the rear when I picked the car up. I felt the rear passenger side of the floor and it was soaking wet. The car started ok and I drove it home. Little did I know that this was only my first encounter with water. The car is usally in a garage, however another occasion during a heavy rain, the car failed to start. The car had to be towed to the lexus dealrship for repair, initally I thought it was the battery, however the service people said the car had severe water damage to the hybrid system, and that there was dampness inside the car rear passanger side of the seat flooring. This was similar to what I thought was the sun roof being left open, however this was not the case, some how when it rains, the water was finding its way in and damging the hypbrid battery to propel the car. I decided to serach to see if anyone else had experinced the same issues and found this blog. This is very strange that leaving a car in the rain would cause such damage. My RX400h has not been in any accident resulting in repair and I purchased it brand new off the show room floor. It is now being totaled becuase it was left out in the rain is bazare. I like the RX400h however, I do not want the problem again especialy since this could have occured while driving the vehicle as in other cases.

cypress_point

I'm considering purchasing my 2007 400h off lease in December. My biggest concern is future battery issues. Any input on battery issues is greatly appreciated.

johnt7

Our RX battery failed a month or two after we bought the new car and the replacement has been trouble free since--two years ago. Hybrid batteries has a reputation for being very reliable. Toyota guarantees them for eight years. The Prius has been around for several years and its batteries enjoy a good reputation.

lastlaflar

Actually the warranty on the Hybrid system is 8 years or 100,000 miles but yes your repairs should be covered.

sam614

I experienced a similar problem with my RX400h. I was driving around 70 mph on the highway in rush hour traffic, and my car just shut off. I had heard a clanking sound (like a belt being hit by a fan), and all of the lights on the dash came on. Everything just shut down. No power steering. No brakes. Nothing. After three weeks of the dealer trying to find the problem, we still don't have the car back. So far the inverter has been replaced. It was "fried." The high voltage fuse was blown, and the relay connector was burned up. They think that this will have resolved all of the problems, but we won't know for sure for several more days.

It was a rather uncomfortable situation to be in with my car just shutting off while driving 70 on the highway in rush hour while in the left lane. I, fortunately, was able to get the car off the road without hitting someone or someone hitting me, but let me tell you it was just luck. Not to mention the hour spent waiting for the tow truck to come and rescue us. Fortunately, I wasn't alone when this happened.

My concern is that there is something more wrong with this hybrid system, i.e. battery problems that might not surface until sometime later (hopefully not when I'm on the highway again). I'm actually looking to trade the car in on a non-hybrid.

rsniady

I am the owner of a 2006 Lexus RX400h. After 51,000 miles, I did notice the electric engine is barely running. Most of the time the gasoline engine is running. It used to run mainly electric and now I am getting very poor mileage. I don't know if this is normal, but can someone clear this up for me?

The driving condition and styles are the same, so I did not change anything.

gilo

We have an rX400h and 2 weeks ago, it just died on us as my husband was pulling away from the lights. We bought the car second hand in July with 66k miles on it (its a 55 plate) but we did not buy from a Lexus dealer. Lexus have told us that the warranty for the hybrid is out of date as it is a 5 year 60k warranty. The cost for a new inverter is £5000 - yes that is thousand not hundred. What an absolute joke. We bought a lexus thinking they were reliable and now it is completely bust and to get it working again we are going to have to pay the equivalent of a small run around!
BE VERY WARY OF BUYING A SECOND HAND HYBRID OUT 0F WARRANTY! I still can't believe this is happening to us! :sick: :sick: :mad:

johnt7

In the US, the battery system is warranted for eight years. I'm assuming you're quoting the price in pounds and that you're abroad. It's seems odd that Lexus would have a much shorter warranty in other countries.

tomnlori

I had a similar problem with a 2006 RX400h. I was accelerating on an entrance ramp and just as I merged and going about 60 mph, I felt a severe shudder, thud then nothing, no power. The dash lit up like a pinball machine including messages like "Check Hybrid System" and something about a VSC failure. Not a pleasant sensation. I coasted off the highway and called a tow truck. The dealer checked it out, determined it was a bad inverter, they ordered a new one, installed it and had the car back to me in two days. There was no charge since the car has 64,000 miles and is covered by warranty. I inquired as to what the cost would have been if the car had been out of warranty (96mo or 100k miles). On the paper work that the service desk kept, I saw that the inverter alone was $9,355. There was also a part or labor for about $300 bringing the total to $9,700 without tax. In the paper work they did not give me I also noticed there was a 2007 technical bulletin referring to a shudder at 60 to 70 mph. Sounds like Lexus knows about the problem.

gilo

Hi, yes I have the misfortune of owning a Lexus in the UK. Here it is only a 5 year warranty and 60k miles. This of course is real bad news as mine has done 70k. My advice to anyone in the UK would be not to buy a lexus hybrid anywhere near 60k miles......it could cost you the equivalent of a small car to fix it! It clearly must be a faulty part as it is a sealed unit. Maybe Lexus think it is acceptable to have to replace an inverter after 60k miles!! :sick:

gilo

Thanks....you bet they probably know about it!! Unfortunately, they are only a multi million pound company and so won't help. The UK seem to get a worse deal on the warranty for some reason :sick:

voiced

Am I the only one who finds it astonishing that Lexus Service will charge a customer $9,700 to fix a bad inverter that goes out at no fault of the customer?

beware007

I just had this HUGE problem last night driving my 2006 Lexus Hybrid 400H down the freeway at rush hour traffic on hwy 680 freeway at 70 mph in the left lane, and my car just shut off. The dash lights lite up saying" CHECK HYBRID" "VSC FAILURE" I had no power steering. No brakes. It took all of my strength to just to move to the slow lane as my car went from 70 MPH to 30 MPH There was no area to pull over to the side of the road becauseuse of road work. As I started to panic I glided slower and slower to an off ramp. I am so lucky that I was not killed or that I did not kill someone. I waited for the tow truck driver and my husband to rescue me an hour of sitting. Thank god for cell phones. Yes, I was alone when this happened. I called my dealer in Monterey they said tow it to the nearst dealer. The Lexus manufacture says $9,000 for a INVERTER! No Way am I paying this. I service my car on a regular basis. This is my third Lexus that I have owned and my first Hybrid . What is the point of buying a HYBRID??? Lexus / Toyota needs to step up to the plate as I see others have had this same problem.

1cinda1

yes, my battery was replaced @ 6 months in but now car is 4yrs old
91K and the battery keeps going out often, luckily not while driving... eeeh gads, that is scary -
I am demanding they change my battery this mon, I have taken it in 2x and told them to check battery, but they told me it was fine. ITS NOT fine, now that I have more ammunition from this forum, I can be more demanding. it is under warranty.

time to dump this car :mad:

ricks1947

I had a similar problem, fortunately just after exiting a highway. My 2006 RX400h has just over 66000 miles on it. The inverter was replaced under warranty, but I could see the dealer's part of the bill - $8500!

My question, to you and others who have had this failure is this:

Do you (as I did, but am re-thinking) use the"B" shift position extensively?

I was pretty pleased with myself that I didn't have any brake repairs until 60K. I'm now wondering if this puts an excessive load on the inverter system, and am just leaving it in "D" for now. I'd rather pay for brakes than an inverter!

I'd like to take a survey of others who have had this failure, to see if this might be part of it. Not that it doesn't make it Toyota's fault, of course - but once we're out of warranty, if this is a weakness we should all avoid it...

johnstuart

I have a 400h. Second time this has happened. Dashboard lights come on, even headlights, locks all work, but 'Ready' light will not light up and therefore engine won't start. Battery checks out OK. Had car checked last time it happened and nothing could be found. Now it's happened again.

skycaptain

Dear Friends,
Since these problems appear to affect the safe operation of the vehicle, I would suggest you go to the NHSTA website and file a report. If they get enough reports they will force a fix and or repair on Lexus. It is important that the National Highway and Safety Administration get these reports.
Also check with your states "Lemon Laws". In many states, if a vehicle requires 3 or more repairs for the same problem the dealer has to replace or buy back the vehicle.

maryland_john

I'm researching inverter failures for 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Similar story to others here. A dangerous complete power failure while driving. 9K+ estimate for replacement. First hybrid after many Toyotas in the family. Thought we were doing the right thing, even with the higher up front cost. Bragging the DAY of the failure this car was the best we ever bought. This is not right. My guess is that the Lexus 2006 inverter is the same part? Does anyone know?

maryland_john

Please report you inverter failures as skycaptain suggests. Toyota refuses to give any information regarding these failures. Only consumer outrage will force them to respond.

Office of Defects Investigation (ODI)
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/

Only takes a few minutes. Have your VIN number handy.
Some of us have our vehicles at dealers waiting repairs so this DOES matter. Please report your failure even if it was covered by warranty. Don't let Toyota get away with this dangerous and costly defect.

rarm1

Just purchased the RX450h with the navigation system (ultra premium) and I have experienced what I believe could be problems with the hybrid and 12 volt batteries.
First instance after acquiring the car, I started to set up some of the car functions through the navigation screen with the car on accessory/on. After a few minutes of setting up the various functions, everything went blank and could not start the car. However, after a few minutes, I was able to start the car. This happened on more than one occasion during the weekend.
Second instance:Parked the car in the drive way, parking brake on, all power off; after washing the car with a pressure washer, including the inside of the mags, I could not start the car. Both 12 volt and hybrid indicated fully discharged after I finally got the car started. On the navigation system, which shows the status of power, the hybrid has only the two lowest bar on the graph, and the color was violet/mauve. Took the car for a spin, and everything appears to have returned to normal. Are those signs of something much serious. Looking forward hearing from others who may have experienced similar problems with the RX450h.

rarm1

Have you experienced any problems with your new Rx450h, and if so, what were they.

maryland_john

I've have found the VIN break for the change from the defective inverter to the new part. Before the break you may experience total power failure, engine, steering and brakes. After the break the new part does not have any failures I can find.
Toyota 06 Highlander Hybrid 2wd - Ending in 60009725
Toyota 06 Highlander Hybrid 4wd - Ending in 60019910
Lexus 06 Rx 400h 2wd - Ending in 60002207
Lexus 06 Rx 400h 4wd - Ending in 60036526

My dealer did the right thing and brought my bill from $9000 to $1200, but how many owners are still driving these dangerous cars??

brendajoy

2006 RX400h, 51k miles, live in Houston, TX. Driving 65-70mph on Hwy 290 on July 30 and my car completely shut down (exactly the same circumstances as others have described). Check Hybrid Sytem, Check VSC system lit up on the dash. Car shut off, steering was difficult, brakes worked slightly. I pulled off on an exit and stopped the car. The lights, radio, power windows, etc. were all still working but the car would not work. When I shut it off and turned it back on, the READY light came on for 1-2 seconds but the car never did start again. While waiting for the tow truck, I left the key on to run some AC but it drained the battery within 20 minutes. Just received word from the dealer that they need to replace the inverter and it is covered under warranty. My 4 year warranty on the car has expired but the Hybrid system has 10 year/100k mile warranty. Thanks to all others who posted. This site was a savior to me so i could talk intelligently to my Service Advisor.

colwen

I'm beginning to think I have the same problem.. I bought our 2006 rx 400h with only 6600 miles on it from the Lexus dealer. It now has about 60k on it.

It started having starter battery troubles almost immediately. Had to be jumped if I left the four-way flashers on for a few minutes, and would not start occasionally, so I took it in several times to dealer and they said they couldn't replicate the problem, that it operated normally while it was in the shop. Finally, it wouldn't start in their driveway and they quickly put in a new small battery (the starter battery).

It's been fine now for a couple of years, but last week it started acting funny, wouldn't start first try, and would tell me I needed to shift to "park" before starting, well, I was in "park"!! Then I jumped it and it ran fine a few days. Now it won't start unless I jump it. Am taking it in tomorrow.

I'm curious, maryland john.... how did you come by the VIN break list? I'd like to walk in the Lexus dealer tomorrow AM, armed with as much ammo/info as I can. I don't want the same run around as I got in the past.... thanks

kimcanada

Driving off a stop light and the car just died. Check AWD - CVT - Hybrid system warning lights went on . Towed to dealer next morning and they called to say lucky it is under warranty ( I have 64000 miles , warranty is 70 k ) and it needs a new invertor. I have not seen bill but here it is $ 7 to $ 9000 Yikes ! This is a problem as it shakes my faith in Lexus Bought from USA to bring to Canada and relied on toyota - Lexus brand Will report to NHTSA and Canada Transport as this should not be happening and from what I can see the toyota lexus hybrid system needs a longer warranty !!!!
Spread the word !!! Complain !!!

skycaptain

Kim, What year is yiur RX 400 ?

Regards , Luke

:shades:

voiced

Yikes! $9K for a single bad part on the RX 400h?

Thought about buying an RX 400h, but now no way!

Thanks for your info. Wonder if the Prius has same problem?

Let us know if Toyota changes the design.

John

brewood

My RX400h failed last week with same messages - Check VSC / Hybrid System Failure. Thankfully the car was coming out of a parking space at the time. Dec 2005 model with 35000 miles. No power other than from 12 volt battery which rapidly drained. Was towed to Lexus by AA. Diagnosed as a Power Invertor failure (£2800 for parts, ex labour). Thankfully within the warranty period for the powertrain. Very disappointed that Lexus claim this was an unusual case - not so after reading this forum.

kimcanada

It was a 2006 lexus rx400h with 60,000 miles . The current inverter blew and the dealer would say exact amount but cost was in $9 to 12000 range. They did say it was replaced with an " Updated Inverter /converter unit " that has a metal body and is heavy duty. Clearly Toyota - Lexus knows this is an issue , ask them . Thank goodness they were decent and replaced it under the 100,000 hybrid warranty. Have not found any other issues with Lexus Hybrids but am keeping on the look out. I am very happy with the car but don't want to have an unreliable car. I did report to NHTSA.

voiced

Whew! That's an expensive repair part! Glad to hear that Toyota took care of the problem and it's covered under their 100K mile drive-train warranty.

I have seriously been considering purchasing a 400h (most likely one that is 3 to 4 years. But I have put it off because of concern with this problem.

Thanks for making us aware that this problem exists. Hopefully Toyota will replace all of these $$$$ inverter/converters in future models. Wonder why it's not a recallable item?

John in Sunny Southern Cal

clivefcroft65

Like many others on this site, my inverter has just 'gone' and the vehicle warranty only covers it to 60k and I have 70k on the clock - on a 2006 model...... Quote for the job including VAT and labour £3700..... the last time I had a quote for an auto "part" this expensive, I could drive it away! Just waiting to see if Lexus will "chip-in"..... I will let you all know how I get on!

mrlexuslover

I am having the same problems as all the above posters. My vehicle multiple times has had this scenario of randomly shutting down and displaying all dummy lights! with the OBD display reading "Check hybrid system", "Check AWD System", "Check Traction Control" with all warning lights on. The vehicle will have electrical power but motor will not crank or turn over. A few times I was able to disconnect negative battery terminal (to make it lose memory) and it worked. Recently it's happened several times in a short period with this past week several times in one week. The first time I brought it into lexus back in 2009 they said I simply "need a new battery". So I bought one and things were ok for about a year until it happened again. It happens when "seasons or temperature spikes suddenly". Very Odd. Lexus service is telling me to file an "insurance claim" just to begin the "diagnosis". They state they found 1/2" of water near the hybrid battery under rear seat with no source yet to be determined..I'm very unhappy! Will post as details unravel themselves!

voiced

Youch!

Please let me know what Lexus agrees to do to fix this problem. It sounds like a design flaw.

My wife and I had decided on purchasing a low-mileage Lexus 400h but after hearing this we definitely will not purchase a 400h.

Wonder if the Prius has this same problem? If anyone knows, please advise as that will be our next choice.

skycaptain

Friends, It appears that most of these Hybrid electrical and battery failures are occuring in 2006 RX400's. Later models may have had a fix. Nevertheless, Please report these failures to the NHTSA. Enough compaints and they will force a recall ....

Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) click the link
link title

:shades: Luke

chris400h

My car died the other day...I rolled backwards in drive, down the hill..Had to be towed.. I have a 2006 lexus .Quoated $8,000.00 ..just read that the NHSTA is looking into the Highlander 2006 hybrid inverter failures.. I believe they use the same inverters!!!
http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/02/nhtsa-examines-highlander-hybrid-complaints.- html

chris400h

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/02/nhtsa-examines-highlander-hybrid-complaints.- html
same inverter?

chris400h

What happened ..the rest of the story..

kimcanada

Follow up on my replacement current invertor for my 2006 Lexus RX400h. New invertor was installed Sept 2010 at 64000 miles and I now have 71000 miles. Everything has been smooth and love the car. Would buy it again provide the invertor was updated . From what I can see this is a product defect on the 2006 Lexus RX400h and the Highlander hybrids. A plastic part that gets updated - changed to a metal one. The Prius uses a different part.
This is definately a NHTSA recall item if they can get it together and push enough paper to get it done.
So far no other issues with the car and I do drive lots . We will see when the hybrid battery get older if my faith is shaken or wallet stripped bare but hopefully not if they want to keep me loyal Lexus fan.

kimcanada

I did have one issue ? maybe ? The highbeams did not work. I checked fuses ect and nothing. Took it to the dealer and believe it or not after they checked it found both bulbs burned out at the same time so no high beams. Strange I don't think it is a defect but weird they burn out at same time .

skycaptain

Kim, Interesting side note. I have a 2007 RX400 and was having difficulty with the rear hatch motor stalling and not opening the hatch. I took it in twice for the same complaint. Turned out that my 2007 had the same motor on the rear hatch that had been recalled in the 2006 Hybrid for a defect(goes by part #) .

My service tech said that some of the early build 2007's had the old motor design installed. hey replaced my door motor under warranty. Now , of course, since I realise my 2007 was an early build, I am concerned that I may have a 2006 design inverter. Basically an accident waiting to happen. Is there any way I can find out if this is so?

Luke :shades:

pantherfan3763

We have a 2006 Lexus RH 400 hybrid as well and are having problems. Ours is leaking coolant and causes the hybrid system to fail. Dealership says it is a transmission problem and not the hybrid. The coolant Obviously affects the hybrid system. I don't trust the dealer at all and of course no one has ever heard of a problem like this. The hybrid is still under warranty but since we are third owners, they will not honor it. Do not buy this vehicle. Hopefully all these 06's will go away.

exdetroit

We woke up a couple weeks ago after a night of hard rain to several inches of water on the floor of our rx400h. Came in through the moonroof. Dealer says he's seen a couple of these and we should call insurance. $8k + in damage, plus mold. Totaled as far as we're concerned. Anyone had this problem?!!!

exdetroit

Do you have a moonroof? I just posted a message. A couple weeks ago a hard rain left several inches of water in our RX400h, basically ruining it. Dealer said moonroof drain. We think it's reasonable to expect you can leave the car outside in the rain without it being totaled with electrical and mold issues. Figuring out next move. Pissed!!