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Are today's cars easy or hard to work on?
If this topic already exist, sorry, I didn't see
it. So I'm starting it, because I'm curious about
the opinions of others.
I don't work on my cars very much any more, even
though I once did. But what I usually hear from
others is that today's cars are so complicated,
it's virtually impossible for an amateur to be able
to work on them and actually fix anything.
Yesterday I tried and was amazed at how easy it was
to do a repair and how little time it took
compared to the same task on any car made 20 or
more years ago. Nothing big just replacing a
broken side-view mirror on my '98 Ford F150, but
that involved taking off and putting back the
inside door panel. It took only about 30 minutes,
but most of that time was spent trying to figure
out the procedure for removing the door panel.
Once that was resolved, it was nothing more than
one bolt for the door handle, 2 plastic pins, and
lift it off. I have to believe an experience
mechanic could do the whole job, including the 3
bolts for the mirror, in 5-to-10 minutes.
Odd thing is that I had arranged for the dealer to
do the job, but the service manager ignored our
appointment and took a very late lunch. After
hanging around for an hour waiting for him to
return, I gave my apologies that I had other
commitments, paid for the part, took it and left.
Earlier, it had been quoted as a one-hour job that
would cost me $67 plus tax. I wasn't really trying
to save the labor charge, but it is sort of
interesting that I had thought before I actually
tried to do the replacement that because this is a
late-model vehicle, it's going to be much too
complicated for me. Turns out it was a piece of
cake because of the way cars are designed nowadays.
But now I have a question. Where in the world do
they get these trumped-up labor charges?
it. So I'm starting it, because I'm curious about
the opinions of others.
I don't work on my cars very much any more, even
though I once did. But what I usually hear from
others is that today's cars are so complicated,
it's virtually impossible for an amateur to be able
to work on them and actually fix anything.
Yesterday I tried and was amazed at how easy it was
to do a repair and how little time it took
compared to the same task on any car made 20 or
more years ago. Nothing big just replacing a
broken side-view mirror on my '98 Ford F150, but
that involved taking off and putting back the
inside door panel. It took only about 30 minutes,
but most of that time was spent trying to figure
out the procedure for removing the door panel.
Once that was resolved, it was nothing more than
one bolt for the door handle, 2 plastic pins, and
lift it off. I have to believe an experience
mechanic could do the whole job, including the 3
bolts for the mirror, in 5-to-10 minutes.
Odd thing is that I had arranged for the dealer to
do the job, but the service manager ignored our
appointment and took a very late lunch. After
hanging around for an hour waiting for him to
return, I gave my apologies that I had other
commitments, paid for the part, took it and left.
Earlier, it had been quoted as a one-hour job that
would cost me $67 plus tax. I wasn't really trying
to save the labor charge, but it is sort of
interesting that I had thought before I actually
tried to do the replacement that because this is a
late-model vehicle, it's going to be much too
complicated for me. Turns out it was a piece of
cake because of the way cars are designed nowadays.
But now I have a question. Where in the world do
they get these trumped-up labor charges?
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Comments
That's an interesting comment. One of the basic guidelines in days gone by was to always disconnect the battery before touching anything to do the electrical system. Well...maybe it doesn't apply to just changing a light bulb, but it always seemed like a good rule to go by. Like when changing a starter, for instance. What kind of possible problems are incurred if I lift the ground connection from a battery?
And the guys (& gals) I've seen in Sears who replace batteries don't appear to be the most skillful technicians. Do these people all have advanced training to avoid causing damage when they change a battery? That's pretty hard to believe.
The diagnostic tools required to deal with modern cars cost more than they used to. Snap-On makes a scanner that costs in the $2000 range, and is the only thing that resets codes in some really new vehicles. If it's not more complicated than it used to be, auto mechanics is certainly more expensive to get started in than it once was.
Thanks to both of you for the insights. If any more of you can add to this, it would be appreciated.
I said I no longer work on cars anymore, but that's not completely true. I still do all of my own oil & filter changes, and brake pads too. All of that seems to have gotten easier over the decades. But not for all vehicles, I know. When I buy a new one, the accessibility of the oil filter is one thing I always check. My last purchase was the F150, but I looked at the Nissan Frontier too. I remember that it looked like an oil-filter change would involve first removing a panel inside the front left wheelwell. Not a very good design, in my opinion.
Problem is, even the dealer many times doesn't look at the manual. For example, the dealer had scratched the door mirror glass on my new car and replaced the whole mirror pod under warranty. They said just the glass itself wasn't replaceable. They had to pay an extra $60 to get the new mirror pod painted to match the car. When I got my manual I found out how to replace just the glass. It would have taken seconds to do and saved the dealer money and saved me time.
While the dealer was replacing the pod, they started to remove the door panel. I had already figured out that the mirror pod could be replaced by just turning it 90 degrees to expose the mounting bolts. Once again, if they read the manual... Luckily, I caught them in time and suggested that they try my method. Took all of one minute to replace the mirror pod.
The only part that is hard to fix on new cars is the computerized electronics. Even though I have an electronics background, the systems require a code reader and scan tool that can cost $1,000 to $2,000. Too much for an owner to buy for their own maintenance. I avoid letting any mechanic touch my car. I can easily get over 100,000 trouble-free miles on my cars by doing all the maintenance myself. If I were to have a problem with an electronic system, I would bring the car to the dealer and just have it diagnosed with their scanner. Then I would do the indicated repair work myself.
I have looked for aftermarket diagnostic tools, but only code readers are available and they are only for "popular" cars. Hopefully with the OBD-II systems in new cars, the standardization of on-board diagnostics (OBD) will allow aftermarket products to be available at a reasonable price.
I used to always get a service manual after taking delivery on a new vehicle, and I have a shelf in the basement filled with them. Maybe they'll be collectors items some day, and my my great-great grandchildren will fight over them. Haven't bought one for my last three vehicles, however.
But the ones that I have ususally didn't get into very much detail when it came to things like removing door panels or dashboard assemblies. I can remember reading instructions like "disconnect tachometer from engine side, and then remove tachometer from dashboard." Boy, that's a big help. Also, it seemed that the same useless information was copied in the manuals year after year. Well, maybe the shop-manual quality has improved in the last decade. If anyone knows how to get a discount on these manuals, be sure to let the rest of us know.
My new car, I opened the hood and wouldn't have known what was under there. There seems to be nothing strictly mechanical on it -- every door lock, radio button, etc. is electronic somehow.
I remember reading that on the new Porsche Boxter, there's not even a hood to open! You have to put the vehicle on a lift to change the air filter! Insane!
Regarding repair manuals, how about those like Chiltons (is that how it's spelled)? Are they any good, at all? Or it best to use only the vehicle manufacturers manual?
As far as the high cost of auto diagnostic tools, I wonder if there's any way of adapting a PC for that. There must be some cottage industries that have started down that path. Wouldn't it be great if you could resurrect that old 486 you have in the closet or down in the basement and have it do the same things that a 3-to-20 thousand dollar auto-diagnostic system is designed for?
Until very recently, I was a bit intimidated by the electronic diagnostic stuff associated with newer models, but now I'm eager to check out a lot of that stuff. The data stream put out by a car's computer is absolutely amazing. Someone in an earlier topic mentioned 20+ pieces of engine/transmission information put out by some cars' computers. The data stream can actually contain 50+ pieces of info!! Modern diagnostic tools tell you nearly everything, from coolant temp to individual cylinder misfires to the output of O2 sensors before and after the cat. Earlier Snap-On scan tools even allowed Ford mechanics to check piston balance. The tools are something else, and the technology is mind-blowing!
I thought it was pretty interesting that GM provides a CD (free it seems) with all of the 98 & 99 service-manual info on it. I don't have a late-model GM, but if I did, there's no doubt one of my old PCs would get a CD installed and be set up in my garage instead of occupying space in the basement. No one said anything about Ford providing the same courtesy, but I'm definitely going to look into that. If anyone already knows, please share it with us.
Kinda makes me long for the days of fore-and -aft engines, $25.00 water pumps, $5.00 fan belts, etc.
I'm not sure if it's possible but I have not found it to be necessary. My experience has been that about a dozen starts and stops are needed to reestablish rather good performance...even for an old worn engine which requires settings which are quite different from the ECM's default settings. Have you guys found that some cars require a much longer re-education interval than this?
1. They specify the steps in performing the
repair, and more importantly the torque
settings for retightening the bolts, the
most basic of information we require.
2. They provide warnings (eg- personal safety,
protecting the computer, etc).
In fact working on cars I find is much easier today. The most difficult job is not the repair, but the diagnostic stage. The diagnosis if incorrect by the professional can cause the consumer to overpay in further repairs till the problem is corrected., or waste your time guessing and buying the wrong parts if you do your own repairs. Manufacturers recognize this and made use of computer and sensor technology to make life easier for the mechanic. The ECM computer is not to be feared, but is our friend....especially for amateur repairmen who are going to have a heck of a time trying to figure out whats wrong. The only thing more difficult now adays is trying to get your hands in there. What we need I guess is a trained mouse with a wrench to access the parts. My way around this problem is to pick the car I purchase carefully ....I start with what is under the hood. Either I do the repair or someone else must, if it's busy under the hood your going to pay the mechanic dearly for 5 hours instead of 2 hours of work. There are a lot of cars still out there that are extrememly easy to repair..... CAMRY, ACCORD, 93-97 INTREPIDS, and many more with so much room under the hood you can virtually step inside the engine compartment area to sit down while your working. Take a look at one of those cars under the hood and get ready for a big surprise, it's like the 1970's with the exception of our friendly computer added(with sensors).
Note: Some manuals will even explain how to use a 1/2" piece of wire to jump the contacts at the service plug to allow you to access the computer from your dash (eg-92 Buick Regals are ultra easy).
I leased a Taurus for a while and shuddered when I had to change the oil. It looked like downtown LA under there. Lots of wiring and 1/2 inch gaps between components - very little finger room.
Any other cars with more engine acreage (other than 70 vintage Buicks??
professored