"Of course it does sound better. 250 watt is not really enough to power 6-8 speakers and a subwoofer. 10” subwoofer alone requires 300 watt of power. So, when I read that a “premium” audio system has 250 watt amplifier, I smile."
Smile away... you make my point for me, and at the same time, utterly miss it.
Back in the day, (I guess they still do) they sold flea-market car stereo amps that were rated "1,000 watts peak power" for $59. They may or may not have had an actual 1,000 watts, but they sounded nowhere near as good as a 60-watt Rockford amp. Now, I am not saying Mitsubishi is anywhere near flea market quality - but even the meaning of "premium" varies among manufacturers. I've heard base stereos in one make that sounded better than the "Super Monsoon Shaker All-Out Subwoofer" system in others. And I try not to be a Mazda fanboy, but the Bose system in my Mazda sounds cleaner and better than any stock stereo I've ever bought, and marginally better than the $1,000+ aftermarket stereos I've put in, including those with bass cabinets.
The Mark Levinson, Harmon/Kardon, and other ultra-premium systems may have a lot of power, but that is not the only reason they sound so good. Frankly, when used correctly, 250 watts is more than enough for 6-8 speakers (especially since half of those are usually tweeters and require little power to generate a lot of volume, anyway). No offense, but to believe otherwise is to naively buy into marketing hype.
The 250 watts is same marketing garbage as the 600 watts. It's like assuming a 600hp vehicle is faster than a 200hp vehicle without giving the weights of each.
Perhaps you missed the point of my post: you don't have a 650 watt amplifier on your car, so as an excuse you call mine a "marketing garbage".
Large car requires more horsepower. Large speaker (subwoofer) requires more amplifier power. And it needs more power to make bass tighter and deeper, but not necessarily louder.
This Alpine 10" Subwoofer requires 500 watt of continues power or 1,500 watt of Peak Power. Is it also a "marketing garbage"?
How about your car horsepower/torque ratings, Is it also a "marketing garbage"?
You have Bose in your car? No wonder. Yes, this brand has nothing to do with the "marketing hype" you mentioned, especially when installed on your car.
C'mon. I mentioned Bose only to point out that it is not the stock stereo, but rather the upgrade option. The more important part is how it sounds, and I described that as well as I can. Actually, I think Bose is usually overrated both in cars and homes, but in this case, the ears don't lie. I was as surprised as anybody.
And for the record, yes, I think the stick-shift function in my CX-7 is marketing hype, too. The only time I've found it useful is in stop-and-go traffic, using lower gears for engine braking. But arguably, I can achieve that without slapshifts, paddles, or anything else.
>> And for the record, yes, I think the stick-shift function in my CX-7 is marketing hype, too.
All right, but imagine you have two identically priced/equipped Mazdas in front of you, except one has auto transmission with the stick-shift function, and the other one – just regular auto. Which one would you pick?
Perhaps you missed the point of my post: you don't have a 650 watt amplifier on your car, so as an excuse you call mine a "marketing garbage".
No, the 250W that Mazda uses is a garbage term also. Again, you missed my point.
How about your car horsepower/torque ratings, Is it also a "marketing garbage"?
Except that they are SAE defined terms. Wattage is a unit of power, and is sadly misused everywhere in that it doesn't define clarity or even content.
This Alpine 10" Subwoofer requires 500 watt of continues power or 1,500 watt of Peak Power. Is it also a "marketing garbage"?
Don't quote peak terms as requirements. A properly set-up 40 watts is plenty to drive that Alpine sub. Just because the coil is stout enough to handle the current doesn't mean a thing.
Please understand my point: the specs on the audio systems cannot be compared unless you have many more details that the OEMs will not provide. So, your best bet really is to listen to each. I certainly cannot say mine is better than yours as I haven't listened to yours. I can tell you however that for either of us to state the power outputs of our audio systems is useless.
"All right, but imagine you have two identically priced/equipped Mazdas in front of you, except one has auto transmission with the stick-shift function, and the other one – just regular auto. Which one would you pick?"
Simple. Since marketing hype has created a demand for the stick-shift, I would negotiate a couple hundred bucks off the one without it, and take that one. :P
Apparently, CR data is sufficient enough to put the 2006 Outlander into the top 5 most reliable in its class, while none of Mazda models in any class made the list:
I got the "insufficient data" directly from CR! No reliability for the last two years of the previous gen...
Did you just made it up? A have an opposite data, were the previous Outlander crush tests have good-to-excellent rating: CR reliability and crush tests
CR said "received poor ratings WITHOUT side airbags" please read before posting!!
This Outlander is already one year old and it has no major reliability issues.
One year is not a good representation of reliability. 3 years or more is an accurate judgment.
About the CX-7, CR was the only mag to give it bad reviews. Also, the turbo lag was fixed, due to a reprogram. CR never tested a fixed CX-7.
BTW, the Mazda MX-5 is the top rated vehicle in its class by CR. You cannot say that about ANY Mitsu. The Mazda5 is rated near the top in it's class as well.
Also, according to CR for "good bets" ,there are 4 Mazda's on the list of vehicles the "have performed well in Consumer Reports road tests and have had several years of better-then-average reliability according to our survey respondents" There are NO Mitsu's on the list.
For total vehicle listed by CR that are recommended, Mazda has 5 recommended (Mazda5, Mazda6, Mazda3, Mazda MX-5, Mazda MPV), and Mitsu has 2 (Galant, Endeavor). Neither the Outlander or CX-7 are recommended because they are NEW models. One year on the market is NOT enough time to determine reliability.
All of the above posted info came directly from CR's web site.
BTW, the 2007 Outlander has NOT been out for a year. It made it's North American debut at the NY International Auto Show in April of '07. The vehicle has been on the road for 5 months, tops!
>> Don't quote peak terms as requirements. A properly set-up 40 watts is plenty to drive that Alpine sub. Just because the coil is stout enough to handle the current doesn't mean a thing.
You can’t run it on 40 watt. Recommended power for it is 500 Watt RMS, which means it needs minimum a half of that, but better to get more then half. Significantly underpowered speakers could be easily damaged. Getting closer to the recommended number would really help to take advantage of any speakers. When I replaced my home HK receiver with Arcam monoblocs rated at 175 watt each, I suddenly was able to discern many more instruments and sounds in my records. It made huge difference.
>>I can tell you however that for either of us to state the power outputs of our audio systems is useless.
Not useless. No manufacturer would intentionally underrate the amp power. So if, the amp is rated at 100-250 watt, I can definitely tell, that 8 speakers + subwoofer don’t have enough juice to produce great sound, since sub alone needs more then that.
>> So, your best bet really is to listen to each. I certainly cannot say mine is better than yours as I haven't listened to yours.
Exactly! You haven't listened to my stereo, but you call it "marketing garbage"?
The Rockford Fosgate amp has MOSFET output stage. This audio system has 8 speakers including four 6” mid range drivers, which are quite large for a car stereo, and they require some decent power.
The system uses Burr-Brown D/A converters, which are (along with Volfson) the best in industry, and quality DA converters are just as important as amp. The on-board 30 Gig hard-drive automatically converts CDs to MP3 direct to the personal music server.
Most importantly the audio system delivers very detailed and neutral sound. Midrange is outstanding, which important for me since I listen a lot to jazz vocal. This audio system is no “garbage” to me.
>> CR said "received poor ratings WITHOUT side airbags" please read before posting!!
No, you quote this first time. You’ve said “The previous Outlander also received poor safety rating by the IIHS when tested without airbags”. So you’ve said nothing about SIDE airbags in your prior post. By the way, every tested Mazda model had poor side impact test results without air bag: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx I bet the results of testing without seatbelts would be poor as well :--)
Here is the result of 2007 Outlander IIHS crush test: overall evaluation is “Good”
>> About the CX-7, CR was the only mag to give it bad reviews. Also, the turbo lag was fixed, due to a reprogram. CR never tested a fixed CX-7.
I am sorry that CX-7 had bad CR review. Engine problems are the worst. .
>> BTW, the Mazda MX-5 is the top rated vehicle in its class by CR. You cannot say that about ANY Mitsu.
Dah! Mitsubishi Pajero, won Dakar Rally 12 times, and 7 times in a row. “You cannot say that about ANY” Mazda. In fact none of the Mazdas ever made even the top 50 in this world toughest rally.
>> there are 4 Mazda's on the list of vehicles the "have performed well in Consumer Reports road tests and have had several years of better-then-average reliability according to our survey respondents" There are NO Mitsu's on the list.
There is no CX-7 on that list either, and CX-7 is what, by the way, we discuss in this thread. However the Outlander, made The Best list, while none of the Mazdas made it:
>> Neither the Outlander or CX-7 are recommended because they are NEW models. One year on the market is NOT enough time to determine reliability.
But, it seems, one year on the market is enough to get bad review for CX-7 engine problems, which is a major reliability issue.
I don't think anyone is calling the Mitsubishi system garbage, but rather the marketing surrounding it. The point has been all along that a "600-watt" description doesn't mean anything (or at least, shouldn't) to someone shopping vehicles. I'm sure the system sounds fine, but nothing in any manufacturer claim is going to give one any indication of that.
As for the 30GB music storage, it's an interesting idea, but unfortunately a niche item, and something that came a few years too late. Too many people have iPods now, making the on-board device an extra that plenty would probably opt not to pay for.
>> I don't think anyone is calling the Mitsubishi system garbage, but rather the marketing surrounding it. The point has been all along that a "600-watt" description doesn't mean anything (or at least, shouldn't) to someone shopping vehicles. I'm sure the system sounds fine, but nothing in any manufacturer claim is going to give one any indication of that.
That was a typical excuse: if my car does not have it, then it’s “marketing garbage”. Rockford Fosgate is a respectable American brand. Mitsubishi picked them, in spite the fact that Japanese marker oversaturated by Japanese car stereo systems. RF builds serious staff, like this $25,000 car amplifier. I have also experienced Rockford Fosgate GPS/DVD/audio/bluetooth/mp3 system myself, so I would not dismiss blankly the specs. In fact the power rating of 650 Watt appears to me accurate. .
>> As for the 30GB music storage, it's an interesting idea, but unfortunately a niche item, and something that came a few years too late. Too many people have iPods now, making the on-board device an extra that plenty would probably opt not to pay for.
Another typical excuse: if my car does not have it, then it’s useless or "niche item". Too many people how have hand watches, bluetooth headsets, and even portable GPS systems, but dashboard integrated devices (clock, Bluetooth, GPS) always work better: no wires, no batteries to charge, nothing to hide when you park your car, more convenient operation vs. that ipod: volume/track control on steering wheel or via 7” touch screen LCD, etc. And fully loaded Outlander with this integrated music server still costs less vs. fully loaded CX-7 without it. In 3-5 years every car in this price range will come with the integrated music server, but on Outlander you can have now.
You don't have an iPod, do you? Did you know Apple has sold over 100 million of them?
FYI, in my particular vehicle, the iPod is integrated via an OEM add-on. Yes, that means steering wheel controls of the iPod via all of its music selection strategies, while the iPod itself charges comfortably hidden in the glovebox. THIS is where the market SHOULD be heading, because there's an existing consumer base (see above). Why introduce a whole new system where I have to load CDs in my car, when I already have 10,000 songs on my portable device? Why limit music portability to my vehicle when my iPod goes everywhere? And for all this talk about how well "integrated" things work, to me it means dead-end technology and lack of upgradability. No thanks. When 80GB isn't enough for me, I'll buy a new 200GB iPod, or maybe a 300GB, or whatever they come out with. I sure hope that 30GB suits you over the lifespan of an Outlander, which I truly hope is a long time.
The onboard music isn't a niche item because my car doesn't have it. I wouldn't use it, and don't want it. It's a niche item because it only benefits those who either drive a LOT and can justify confining 30GB of content to their CUV, or those who either don't have a portable device, or don't mind loading up their music library twice. Those groups represent a minority and a dwindling number of CUV shoppers. But if you've found a use for the thing, that's great.
No, I don’t have an iPod, and I don’t want one. The iPod is obsolete for me. My smart phone does much more. It has 2-3 times larger LCD touch screen, Bluetooth to use with stereo headphones, unlimited non-volatile storage via removable memory cards, 2 mpx still/video camera with flash, wi-fi, broadband internet, streaming web TV and radio including premium Sirius radio and, finally, phone! I also stream my entire mp3 library from my home PC to this device, so I actually don’t have to use its memory. You iPod can not do any of that! A stand alone mp3 player soon will become a niche market. .
>> And for all this talk about how well "integrated" things work, to me it means dead-end technology and lack of upgradeability.
You iPod is an integrated "dead-end technology". You can’t upgrade it, and you have to buy a new one to get more memory. I will get a new car in about 3 years anyway, and as it works with cars, I would get new clean car, with new stereo, GPS, Bluetooth, satellite radio – it’s given. But even if it would be upgradeable, I don’t think I would go through the trouble of upgrading, just like I don’t upgrade my PC, I always just buy a new one, like most people. You pay little more, but you get new HD, processor, more RAM, better video card, faster DVD burner, newer software, etc. The same happens with cars. .
>> The onboard music isn't a niche item because my car doesn't have it. I wouldn't use it, and don't want it. It's a niche item because it only benefits those who either drive a LOT and can justify confining 30GB of content to their CUV
Consumers like to have a choice. For instance, may be some people don’t listen to the radio in a car, may be they just play CDs or listen to iPods, but no one complains that the radio is available. Outlander owners have even more choices. They have a choice of either connecting the iPod or any other mp3 player to car stereo, or with a push of a button they can use onboard music server. Mazda owners don’t have that choice.
Soon, when the stand alone mp3 player will become a niche item and "dead-end technology", car entertainment center will get more advanced. It will have web browser, email-to-speech, and mp3 streaming capability. What company do you think will offer it first: Mitsu, Mazda or Subaru?
"You iPod is an integrated "dead-end technology". You can’t upgrade it, and you have to buy a new one to get more memory. I will get a new car in about 3 years anyway, and as it works with cars, I would get new clean car, with new stereo, GPS, Bluetooth, satellite radio – it’s given."
You are a funny guy (or gal). Even buying a new model, I can upgrade my iPod a lot cheaper than you can buy a new car! And as I said, the iPod and its library will follow me from to car to car, from home to work, you name it. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater...
Anyway, I'll take your bet on the standalone mp3 player becoming a niche market. Whenever you return to earth from your trip, you just might find Mitsubishi out of the US market and everybody wearing mp3 players sewn into their clothing... Cheers.
>> Even buying a new model, I can upgrade my iPod a lot cheaper than you can buy a new car!
Like I’ve said, regardless of the space left on my music server I’ll buy new car in 3 years anyway to get all new technologies. Are you saying you gonna drive your Mazda much longer? Let me guess, 6-8 years? You will stick with your car after the warranty will expire, but you will have a new upgraded iPod. Well, that’s could be a strategy to get the most off your buck. I hope you have purchased the extended warranty. .
>> And as I said, the iPod and its library will follow me from to car to car, from home to work, you name it.
What’s a big deal to stick a couple of DVDs with mp3 library and copy it to the hard drive of my new car? BTW my music does not even have to “follow me from to car to car, from home to work”. It resides on my home PC which acts as streaming server - simple and free software, and I can listen to it from any connected device in the world including my PC at work, and I can share my streaming music with friends. Of course, other obsolete devices have to do things old way. .
>> you just might find Mitsubishi out of the US market
This is you wishful thinking. A car company as large as Mitsubishi would not likely to pull out of the world largest market like North America. This is too large of a market to run away from. And Mitsubishi's new management and new lineup of cars is starting to look very impressive. I wish them a success, but on the other hand, the next car I'll buy from whoever offers the best, so the completion is good for an American consumer. .
>> and everybody wearing mp3 players sewn into their clothing.
This is you wishful thinking again. Who needs to carry so many electronic devices: ipod, cellphone, digital camera, internet tablet, etc. iPod will fade away to a niche market status. Multifunctional wireless device, that’s what everybody will be “wearing sewn into their clothing”. And Bluetooth headset will be implanted into a human head :--)
Actually, the main benefit of the hard drive is not the Music Server, it's the quickness you gain on the Nav compared to DVD systems.
After using my system for several months, the top level Outlanders have a great sound system. DVD, Music Server, Nav, Sirius, Bluetooth, and the ability to add an iPod if you want to. It is easily the best entertainment system I've had in a car.
The Music Server is a good feature, I've loaded mine up with about 30 of my favorite CD's. It is easy to use and works well. It's just one part of the total system, a nice one at that. More and more cars will be going to hard drive based systems because there are a lot of benefits.
"Are you saying you gonna drive your Mazda much longer? Let me guess, 6-8 years?"
Yeah. It makes a little more sense to try and get the payback from a $30,000 purchase than it does a $300 device. You might buy a different car after three years, but you will not find a new generation of Outlander over that timeframe. And if your music library will fit on "a couple of DVDs" then a hard drive server is not saving you much hassle over an optical drive that can play MP3s. That would be far less costly since it is already in the car. The benefits of the hard drive to the NAV system would be totally lost on someone who doesn't want NAV in their car.
"Multifunctional wireless device, that’s what everybody will be “wearing sewn into their clothing”."
Don't fall for a red herring. Call the device whatever you like; as long as it's portable and does music, it renders the in-dash music server redundant and again, a niche oddity. Yes, the devices you mention are merging - look at the iPhone as a nice example, which unfortunately does not do stereo Bluetooth (yet)... But if you really want to see the future, maybe it's A2DP streaming from portable device (in clothing or otherwise) to car. I still say a proprietary HD buried in the dash is silly, silly, silly.
And why are we whining over the Outlander not having an iPod adapter? What does Mitsubishi care about Apple's product? :surprise: Mitsubishi on the other hand supported industry standard features like MP3 WMA DVD Bluetooth, among others.
Again, the hard drive is there primarily for Nav, it uses about 12GB of the drive to store the maps etc. The remaining space is a bonus that you can use to store music if you want.
>> You might buy a different car after three years, but you will not find a new generation of Outlander over that timeframe.
As I have said, the Outlander does not have to be my next car. Outlander is not a religion - it's the best car for me for now. .
>> And if your music library will fit on "a couple of DVDs" then a hard drive server is not saving you much hassle over an optical drive that can play MP3s.
For most people 9 GB for MP3s is more then enough. Don’t forget, that majority of those 100 million iPods sold have less then that. .
>> That would be far less costly since it is already in the car.
The mp3 capability on hard drive based Nav system does not really add much extra cost, since the hard drive is already there, all they had to do is to modify the software. .
>> The benefits of the hard drive to the NAV system would be totally lost on someone who doesn't want NAV in their car.
The Nav system provides more then just navigation. That’s what people are buying: 1. Navigation system 2. Center console for all your vehicle's computer setting. You get to set all the "user selectable" settings, which otherwise you couldn't have known, unless maybe you read the 1 inch thick manual cover to cover. And otherwise some setting, like FAST Key programming could be done only at dealership. 3. MP3 CD-R, WAV, CD-Audio, DVD player. 4. Music server. 6. Display for your PS/2, Videocam. 7. Backup camera interface (optional OEM installation) .
>> Call the device whatever you like; as long as it's portable and does music, it renders the in-dash music server redundant and again, a niche oddity.
You don’t call redundant in-dash clock and in-dash Bluetooth, since it’s available in Mazda. You call redundant something Mazda does not have. .
>> Yes, the devices you mention are merging - look at the iPhone as a nice example, which unfortunately does not do stereo Bluetooth (yet)
iPhone is a good start. Unfortunately, lack of fast internet and Bluetooth stereo make it half backed. The other limitation is proprietary encryption, limited support of mp3s and dependence on iTunes. .
>> But if you really want to see the future, maybe it's A2DP streaming from portable device (in clothing or otherwise) to car.
If you really want to see the future, you will not carry around gigabytes of your music in your pocket. The simplest setup would involve only a wireless headset witch will play your music library streaming over the internet. As an option you will be able to use your cell phone LCD to navigate through your playlists. Another option for playlist navigation, and for viewing of streaming video would be a video eyeware.
This wireless device is already available in Europe. Look Ma, no iPod!
"As I have said, the Outlander does not have to be my next car."
True, but your choices of vehicles to transfer your dash-loaded music will still be limited. Better yet, over that time frame, you will probably be hard-pressed to find the same magnitude of improvements in a car that you will find in a portable device.
"For most people 9 GB for MP3s is more then enough."
And yet upsizing is the trend. Last year, did you think 1GB of RAM was more than enough in your PC?
"The Nav system provides more then just navigation."
We are really only talking about item 4 in your list, which is what you purported to be a real selling point with the Mitsubishi. All the other functions, some of which might be related to the built-in HD, are still available in other cars.
"You don’t call redundant in-dash clock and in-dash Bluetooth, since it’s available in Mazda. You call redundant something Mazda does not have."
Bluetooth in a vehicle is not redundant, since it takes over the external phone controls and provides a safer way to display information. If you want a phone analogy, your music server is more like having a non-Bluetooth cellular device built into the car, like "ze Germans" did, until a few years ago.
"iPhone is a good start. Unfortunately, lack of fast internet and Bluetooth stereo make it half backed. The other limitation is proprietary encryption, limited support of mp3s and dependence on iTunes."
Totally agree that the iPhone needs 3G support and A2DP. Don't know what you mean by proprietary encryption. iTunes and iPhone both have 100% support of the mp3 format, whether the files are purchased, stolen, homemade, or "other."
"This wireless device is already available in Europe. Look Ma, no iPod!"
>> True, but your choices of vehicles to transfer your dash-loaded music will still be limited.
Why would I want to transfer music from vehicle to vehicle? I have all my music on DVDs and would transfer it from DVD to vehicle, which is fast and easy. .
>> Better yet, over that time frame, you will probably be hard-pressed to find the same magnitude of improvements in a car that you will find in a portable device.
What kind of improvement have you got in your iPod over the last 3 years? Tree years ago I bought Camry XLS, which was top of the line. I drove it 2 years 9 month until I replaced it with the Outlander. These are the improvements a 2004 Camry owner would get this year, if Outlander is purchased as a replacement today:
New standard features: Dual stage air bag technology Side and second row airbags Tire pressure monitor 6-speed tranny Stick shift mode with paddle shifters Stability & Traction control Braking Assist Steering Wheel audio and cruise controls Fast Key Keyless start LED tail lights Odor absorbing interior Bluetooth MP3 capable CD player Gasoline usage computer New optional features: Navigation/DVD/Music server Heated Seats Xenon head lights Sirius radio DVD player for the second row seats. Powerful amplifier, more speakers and subwoofer Rear view camera Parking Sensors
I’d say you can get plenty of improvements to justify the replacement!
Speaking of Mitsu in 3 years, check out this baby, which is likely to be available in 3 years. It will use of what it calls "Green Plastic," made from bamboo and other plant-based resins, electronically controlled four-wheel-drive system and fat 19” tires. I am sure it will be packed wth innovations. .
>> Look Ma, no iPod! >>> No Outlander, either.
I don’t think you should be wearing these video eyeware or headphones while you drive, so since iPod will be absolete, the in-dash mp3 server or in-dash wireless server would be a necessity.
WHOA! I CAN GET PADDLE SHIFTERS ON MY OUTLANDER???
I guess we've come full-circle... time for me to shut up and make way for those scads of people who will be trading in their Camrys to get the "odor absorbing interior."
Besides, there was no XLS for 2004, and about half the stuff you list was available on Camrys back then anyway. No use debating if we're just going to make stuff up.
big deal: I made a typo XLE, not XLS, you made a cheap shot, I guess you could not say anything essential.
And what "half the stuff you list was available on Camrys" may I ask? You are making stuff up!
A couple of features was a vailable at that time but only as an option, while these year it's standard on all cars and that's what's I indicated on my list: "standard". It had optional side air bag and only for the front row, now the Outlanders has it stadard and for all 3 rows.
And may be "odor absorbing interior" is a small fetaure, but there is half a dozen of new small features I did not even mention, which make a car better.
I am sorry that CX-7 had bad CR review. Engine problems are the worst.
There was never any "engine problem" It was a software programing issue, which was solved by a computer update. . But, it seems, one year on the market is enough to get bad review for CX-7 engine problems, which is a major reliability issue.
Where does it say that? Oh, wait, it does not. You just made it up. No where does it say the CX-7 is not reliable.
Dah! Mitsubishi Pajero, won Dakar Rally 12 times, and 7 times in a row. “You cannot say that about ANY” Mazda. In fact none of the Mazdas ever made even the top 50 in this world toughest rally.
And what Mitsu dealer can I buy this car? What third party source rates it's reliability? What is the standard equipment? What are it's safety ratings? Where can I test drive this vehicle? How does it drive on the road, where 99% of people actually drive their vehicle?
Mazda is not a "rally" company. What Mitsu vehicle has it's own racing circuit? None. The MX-5 has it's own racing circuit. How about the only Japanese company to with the very tough 24hr LeMans race? Mazda with the rotary engine. Who is the current leader in the SCCA Speed World Challenge Touring Car series? Mazda does with the Mazda6, leading over Acura, BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus and many others. These races are done on pavement where 99% of vehicles are driven! The only Mitus that you can actually drive like a rally car is the EVO, and even that is detuned from what it is on the dirt track.
On any given weekend, there are more Mazdas competing on the road race tracks of America than any other brand*
*Based on Sports Car Club of America racing data.
Now back to the Outlander vs. CX-7 Vs. Tribeca...which are all driven on PAVEMENT, with offroad capability!!
And what Mitsu dealer can I buy this car? What third party source rates it's reliability? What is the standard equipment? What are it's safety ratings? Where can I test drive this vehicle? How does it drive on the road, where 99% of people actually drive their vehicle?
I think you took the concept of competitive motorsports out of context. It's no different from asking the question, "where can I test drive an f1 car?"
Again, there are people amazed at looking cars going around in circles in a closed paved circuit, and there are others who want to see competition modified vehicles pitted against the competition in the extreme of road conditions.
Rallying is not about marketing the actual rally cars, because there's no way 99% of the driving public is able to afford one. It's more about the engineering capability of the company that participates.
Mitsubishi does not own a racing circuit, to my knowledge, because they race all over the world, where there are rallies. You are talking of Mazda being raced in the race tracks of America, Mitsubishi vehicles are being raced by private individuals in Asia, Europe, Middle East, and Americas. And most of these competitions are FIA regulated, which requires strict homologation, not some tuners getting their high running circles.
think you took the concept of competitive motorsports out of context. It's no different from asking the question, "where can I test drive an f1 car?"
Not really. I just didn't understand why that was brought up. We were talking about what CR said about the Outlander, and he replyed with that data about a rally race from a different vehicle. It made no sence. Rallying is not about marketing the actual rally cars
Sure it is. Look at Subaru's new WRX commercial. They show a rally WRX flipping, and the driver wanting another one. Audi also uses their rally footage, archived and current day to promote their vehilces all the time. They are not always the actual vehicles, but, darn close.
Mitsubishi does not own a racing circuit, to my knowledge, because they race all over the world, where there are rallies. You are talking of Mazda being raced in the race tracks of America, Mitsubishi vehicles are being raced by private individuals in Asia, Europe, Middle East, and Americas
As does Mazda. Mazdas are raced all over the world as well. I just have no data as to how many. That is whay I posted what the SCCA said about Mazdas in America.
Sure it is. Look at Subaru's new WRX commercial. They show a rally WRX flipping, and the driver wanting another one. Audi also uses their rally footage, archived and current day to promote their vehilces all the time. They are not always the actual vehicles, but, darn close.
See, I'm not even talking commercials here but actual rally coverage, with actual rally cars. WRX is not a rally car, it's a street car. The WRX may look like the Subaru Impreza WRC06, but that's where all similarities end, in the basic shape only. And you know why they're darn close? That's called homologation. They advertise the base car using competition model because that's the essence of competitive motorsports. Use it to showcase how well you can engineer your product. Mitsubishi has been in that tradition since its inception. That's why Mitsubishi has always been proud of its achievement in these fields. Bragging about it doesn't mean driving your Outlander in the desert and do the Dakar as some poster said in the other thread, because then that would only mean you don't even have the basic understanding of how competitive motorsports work. As a proof of this rally engineering excellence, Mitsubishi incorporates a lot of things learned from competition into their products. The Outlander was born out of the same concept car where the current Dakar champion Pajero(Montero) Evolution MPR13 was also based from. That's why the Outlander has been praised for its handling, among other things. Some call the paddle shifters gimmick, which is a rally car feature, but for me, who used to drive manual, it's a very nice compromise. It would never have the feel of a manual, but for me it's close enough. I don't think I can live with that overrevving when doing overtakes, and the paddle shifters put me in control. Power when I need it. I understand that other auto makers don't follow the same path in their vehicle design.
The turbocharger part of the engine, is not it, therefore the turbo lag qualifies as engine problem.
In CR review they talk about this problem: “the power delivery, road noise, and interior packaging are critical weaknesses”, “The unusual choice of a small-displacement, turbo engine in a midsized SUV results in unpleasant lulls and surges in the power delivery. The engine wakes up slowly from idling at a standstill, with a long second or two of turbo lag before the power kicks in under throttle. When merging onto a highway or accelerating from a rolling stop, the driver experiences a disconcerting pause, after which the acceleration comes on abruptly--often too strong for the desired response”, “the engine's real-world power delivery is its Achilles' heel. The delayed throttle response and raspy sounds are simply out of place”, “failed to impress us overall”
It's semantics. Saying a turbo engine has an engine problem is like saying a motorcycle has a wheel problem because it's lacking four of them.
Regardless, CR tested a model before the major software revision which alleviated almost all of those power delivery comments. I had the original programming and then had it updated, and can tell you it is like night and day.
Sadly, with a normally aspirated engine(Outlander or otherwise), you do not have the same level of control via programming.
And what Mitsu dealer can I buy this car? What third party source rates it's reliability?
Well, you brought up Mazda Miata, which is unrelated to this thread; it's not even SUV. So I just responded in kind. The Outlander is at least a direct decendant of Pajero.
And reliability of Pajero is in its success. Just to get through that desert you need hell of reliability. To win the rally multiple times you need even more reliability. And you need the best AWD system to acomplish that!
There is no mention of reliability, like I said. None. Also, the turbo and engine itself was not the issue, it was the computer program, which had been updated as the CX-7 owner has testified too..
Well, you brought up Mazda Miata, which is unrelated to this thread; it's not even SUV. So I just responded in kind. The Outlander is at least a direct decendant of Pajero.
I brought up the Miata because you said no Mazdas were in the top according to CR, and the Miata is. So, I brought it up. What does the Pajero have to do with CR? Nothing. See the relevance on my part, and non relevance on your part?
Just to get through that desert you need hell of reliability
That is just not true. It has to perform well, not be reliable. You would like it reliable. But, race driven vehicles tend to break, a lot. Chevy, Dodge and Ford bring their stock cars to the track every weekend. Does that make them reliable?
And you need the best AWD system to acomplish that!
Does the Outlander have the same AWD system as the Pajero? If not, the Pajero has no relevance to this thread.Are you going to drive a Outlander in the sand in Africa? I doubt it. Also, the Outlander is not marketed to the "rally" or off road crowd, like a Jeep is. So, what does rally heritage have to do with the Outlander? The only thing I can think of is it uses AWD technology that has helped win races. But, how does that correlate to the Outlander if you are not going to drive it in the desert?? Atleast Mazda uses and tests their technology on pavement, where 99% of people drive.
AWD is not the only deciding factor on how a vehicle performs. Power, suspension, weight, transmission wheel base, all have a part in how a vehicle performs. Not the AWD alone.
>> It's semantics. Saying a turbo engine has an engine problem is like saying a motorcycle has a wheel problem because it's lacking four of them.
Of course it’s engine problem. It’s not an A/C or stereo problem. Even CR says “the engine's real-world power delivery is its Achilles' heel. The delayed throttle response and raspy sounds are simply out of place”.
I am glad, that you fixed it, but a reliable engine does not need to be fixed on the first year.
>> I brought up the Miata because you said no Mazdas were in the top according to CR, and the Miata is.
I don’t see Miata here nor any other Mazda here:
I understand Miata won Consumer Reports “Most Fun to Drive” award, but it has nothing to do with reliability, which was a subject of this discussion. So Miata is irrelevant here.
>> That is just not true. It has to perform well, not be reliable. You would like it reliable. But, race driven vehicles tend to break, a lot. Chevy, Dodge and Ford bring their stock cars to the track every weekend. Does that make them reliable?
Dakar Rally is very tough and it goes on for weeks. You can’t replace a broken car in the middle of Rally. That’s why Chevy, Dodge and Ford never won the Dakar Rally.
>> Does the Outlander have the same AWD system as the Pajero? If not, the Pajero has no relevance to this thread.
As a proof of this rally engineering excellence, Mitsubishi incorporates a lot of things learned from competition into their products. The Outlander was born out of the same concept car where the current Dakar champion Pajero (Montero) Evolution MPR13 was also based from. That's why the Outlander has been praised for its handling, among other things. (rcpax )
>> AWD is not the only deciding factor on how a vehicle performs. Power, suspension, weight, transmission wheel base, all have a part in how a vehicle performs.
That’s right and this means, that Mitsubishi rally success is a good indication, that they know how to build quality vehicles in terms of power, suspension, transmission, wheel base and AWD.
Of course it’s engine problem. It’s not an A/C or stereo problem. Even CR says “the engine's real-world power delivery is its Achilles' heel. The delayed throttle response and raspy sounds are simply out of place”.
CR doesn't say there's anything wrong with the engine, only the way it delivers power, which in a turbocharged engine is controlled by a computer (ECU). I don't know why I'm wasting time explaining what two or three others have already tried, but your argument about the CX-7's engine and its reliability is absurd.
I have a programmer for my turbocharged Subaru that allows me to increase hp/torque given the situation, or shut off boost from the turbo altogether. If I shut off boost the engine will feel vastly different; it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, or that the turbo is malfunctioning. It is only doing what it's been programmed to do.
In this situation it sounds like Mazda's factory ECU map was not optimized for a smooth powerband, which instead lead to sudden surges of power. There's nothing inherently wrong with that for certain kinds of cars or driving styles, but for a family-oriented CUV it isn't ideal, as it makes the car less livable in daily driving situations. Mazda should be commended for offering to change the programming for existing owners.
It's nothing to do with reliability - only with the "feel" of the engine.
Yes, if there's blame to be laid, Mazda should have had the throttle map right out of the gate on a new car, without having to redesign the engine software after several months of production. The hassle is that dealers don't always automatically reflash the ECU, and so there might be customers who didn't know about the reflash and didn't request it, and subsequently still have the laggy response.
If CR re-ran their test, I suspect those comments would go away completely. But the engine they wrote about is just as reliable as the one in the new CX-7s, and the power delivery issues were only a "personality trait" of the vehicle that was not appropriate.
Comments
To do what; shake the car next to you?
The figures they put in brochures are marketing hype and no indication of the sound quality.
Smile away... you make my point for me, and at the same time, utterly miss it.
Back in the day, (I guess they still do) they sold flea-market car stereo amps that were rated "1,000 watts peak power" for $59. They may or may not have had an actual 1,000 watts, but they sounded nowhere near as good as a 60-watt Rockford amp. Now, I am not saying Mitsubishi is anywhere near flea market quality - but even the meaning of "premium" varies among manufacturers. I've heard base stereos in one make that sounded better than the "Super Monsoon Shaker All-Out Subwoofer" system in others. And I try not to be a Mazda fanboy, but the Bose system in my Mazda sounds cleaner and better than any stock stereo I've ever bought, and marginally better than the $1,000+ aftermarket stereos I've put in, including those with bass cabinets.
The Mark Levinson, Harmon/Kardon, and other ultra-premium systems may have a lot of power, but that is not the only reason they sound so good. Frankly, when used correctly, 250 watts is more than enough for 6-8 speakers (especially since half of those are usually tweeters and require little power to generate a lot of volume, anyway). No offense, but to believe otherwise is to naively buy into marketing hype.
I have seen that video. You forgot to mention, that Subaru sales team conducted that impressive test.
The 250 watts is same marketing garbage as the 600 watts. It's like assuming a 600hp vehicle is faster than a 200hp vehicle without giving the weights of each.
Perhaps you missed the point of my post: you don't have a 650 watt amplifier on your car, so as an excuse you call mine a "marketing garbage".
Large car requires more horsepower. Large speaker (subwoofer) requires more amplifier power. And it needs more power to make bass tighter and deeper, but not necessarily louder.
This Alpine 10" Subwoofer requires 500 watt of continues power or 1,500 watt of Peak Power. Is it also a "marketing garbage"?
How about your car horsepower/torque ratings, Is it also a "marketing garbage"?
And for the record, yes, I think the stick-shift function in my CX-7 is marketing hype, too. The only time I've found it useful is in stop-and-go traffic, using lower gears for engine braking. But arguably, I can achieve that without slapshifts, paddles, or anything else.
All right, but imagine you have two identically priced/equipped Mazdas in front of you, except one has auto transmission with the stick-shift function, and the other one – just regular auto. Which one would you pick?
No, the 250W that Mazda uses is a garbage term also. Again, you missed my point.
How about your car horsepower/torque ratings, Is it also a "marketing garbage"?
Except that they are SAE defined terms. Wattage is a unit of power, and is sadly misused everywhere in that it doesn't define clarity or even content.
This Alpine 10" Subwoofer requires 500 watt of continues power or 1,500 watt of Peak Power. Is it also a "marketing garbage"?
Don't quote peak terms as requirements. A properly set-up 40 watts is plenty to drive that Alpine sub. Just because the coil is stout enough to handle the current doesn't mean a thing.
Please understand my point: the specs on the audio systems cannot be compared unless you have many more details that the OEMs will not provide. So, your best bet really is to listen to each. I certainly cannot say mine is better than yours as I haven't listened to yours. I can tell you however that for either of us to state the power outputs of our audio systems is useless.
Simple. Since marketing hype has created a demand for the stick-shift, I would negotiate a couple hundred bucks off the one without it, and take that one. :P
I got the "insufficient data" directly from CR! No reliability for the last two years of the previous gen...
Did you just made it up? A have an opposite data, were the previous Outlander crush tests have good-to-excellent rating: CR reliability and crush tests
CR said "received poor ratings WITHOUT side airbags" please read before posting!!
This Outlander is already one year old and it has no major reliability issues.
One year is not a good representation of reliability. 3 years or more is an accurate judgment.
About the CX-7, CR was the only mag to give it bad reviews. Also, the turbo lag was fixed, due to a reprogram. CR never tested a fixed CX-7.
BTW, the Mazda MX-5 is the top rated vehicle in its class by CR. You cannot say that about ANY Mitsu. The Mazda5 is rated near the top in it's class as well.
Also, according to CR for "good bets" ,there are 4 Mazda's on the list of vehicles the "have performed well in Consumer Reports road tests and have had several years of better-then-average reliability according to our survey respondents" There are NO Mitsu's on the list.
For total vehicle listed by CR that are recommended, Mazda has 5 recommended (Mazda5, Mazda6, Mazda3, Mazda MX-5, Mazda MPV), and Mitsu has 2 (Galant, Endeavor). Neither the Outlander or CX-7 are recommended because they are NEW models. One year on the market is NOT enough time to determine reliability.
All of the above posted info came directly from CR's web site.
BTW, the 2007 Outlander has NOT been out for a year. It made it's North American debut at the NY International Auto Show in April of '07. The vehicle has been on the road for 5 months, tops!
You can’t run it on 40 watt. Recommended power for it is 500 Watt RMS, which means it needs minimum a half of that, but better to get more then half. Significantly underpowered speakers could be easily damaged. Getting closer to the recommended number would really help to take advantage of any speakers. When I replaced my home HK receiver with Arcam monoblocs rated at 175 watt each, I suddenly was able to discern many more instruments and sounds in my records. It made huge difference.
>>I can tell you however that for either of us to state the power outputs of our audio systems is useless.
Not useless. No manufacturer would intentionally underrate the amp power. So if, the amp is rated at 100-250 watt, I can definitely tell, that 8 speakers + subwoofer don’t have enough juice to produce great sound, since sub alone needs more then that.
>> So, your best bet really is to listen to each. I certainly cannot say mine is better than yours as I haven't listened to yours.
Exactly! You haven't listened to my stereo, but you call it "marketing garbage"?
The Rockford Fosgate amp has MOSFET output stage. This audio system has 8 speakers including four 6” mid range drivers, which are quite large for a car stereo, and they require some decent power.
The system uses Burr-Brown D/A converters, which are (along with Volfson) the best in industry, and quality DA converters are just as important as amp. The on-board 30 Gig hard-drive automatically converts CDs to MP3 direct to the personal music server.
Most importantly the audio system delivers very detailed and neutral sound. Midrange is outstanding, which important for me since I listen a lot to jazz vocal. This audio system is no “garbage” to me.
No, you quote this first time. You’ve said “The previous Outlander also received poor safety rating by the IIHS when tested without airbags”. So you’ve said nothing about SIDE airbags in your prior post. By the way, every tested Mazda model had poor side impact test results without air bag: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx I bet the results of testing without seatbelts would be poor as well :--)
Here is the result of 2007 Outlander IIHS crush test: overall evaluation is “Good”
>> About the CX-7, CR was the only mag to give it bad reviews. Also, the turbo lag was fixed, due to a reprogram. CR never tested a fixed CX-7.
I am sorry that CX-7 had bad CR review. Engine problems are the worst.
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>> BTW, the Mazda MX-5 is the top rated vehicle in its class by CR. You cannot say that about ANY Mitsu.
Dah! Mitsubishi Pajero, won Dakar Rally 12 times, and 7 times in a row. “You cannot say that about ANY” Mazda. In fact none of the Mazdas ever made even the top 50 in this world toughest rally.
>> there are 4 Mazda's on the list of vehicles the "have performed well in Consumer Reports road tests and have had several years of better-then-average reliability according to our survey respondents" There are NO Mitsu's on the list.
There is no CX-7 on that list either, and CX-7 is what, by the way, we discuss in this thread. However the Outlander, made The Best list, while none of the Mazdas made it:
>> Neither the Outlander or CX-7 are recommended because they are NEW models. One year on the market is NOT enough time to determine reliability.
But, it seems, one year on the market is enough to get bad review for CX-7 engine problems, which is a major reliability issue.
As for the 30GB music storage, it's an interesting idea, but unfortunately a niche item, and something that came a few years too late. Too many people have iPods now, making the on-board device an extra that plenty would probably opt not to pay for.
That was a typical excuse: if my car does not have it, then it’s “marketing garbage”. Rockford Fosgate is a respectable American brand. Mitsubishi picked them, in spite the fact that Japanese marker oversaturated by Japanese car stereo systems. RF builds serious staff, like this $25,000 car amplifier. I have also experienced Rockford Fosgate GPS/DVD/audio/bluetooth/mp3 system myself, so I would not dismiss blankly the specs. In fact the power rating of 650 Watt appears to me accurate.
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>> As for the 30GB music storage, it's an interesting idea, but unfortunately a niche item, and something that came a few years too late. Too many people have iPods now, making the on-board device an extra that plenty would probably opt not to pay for.
Another typical excuse: if my car does not have it, then it’s useless or "niche item". Too many people how have hand watches, bluetooth headsets, and even portable GPS systems, but dashboard integrated devices (clock, Bluetooth, GPS) always work better: no wires, no batteries to charge, nothing to hide when you park your car, more convenient operation vs. that ipod: volume/track control on steering wheel or via 7” touch screen LCD, etc. And fully loaded Outlander with this integrated music server still costs less vs. fully loaded CX-7 without it. In 3-5 years every car in this price range will come with the integrated music server, but on Outlander you can have now.
FYI, in my particular vehicle, the iPod is integrated via an OEM add-on. Yes, that means steering wheel controls of the iPod via all of its music selection strategies, while the iPod itself charges comfortably hidden in the glovebox. THIS is where the market SHOULD be heading, because there's an existing consumer base (see above). Why introduce a whole new system where I have to load CDs in my car, when I already have 10,000 songs on my portable device? Why limit music portability to my vehicle when my iPod goes everywhere? And for all this talk about how well "integrated" things work, to me it means dead-end technology and lack of upgradability. No thanks. When 80GB isn't enough for me, I'll buy a new 200GB iPod, or maybe a 300GB, or whatever they come out with. I sure hope that 30GB suits you over the lifespan of an Outlander, which I truly hope is a long time.
The onboard music isn't a niche item because my car doesn't have it. I wouldn't use it, and don't want it. It's a niche item because it only benefits those who either drive a LOT and can justify confining 30GB of content to their CUV, or those who either don't have a portable device, or don't mind loading up their music library twice. Those groups represent a minority and a dwindling number of CUV shoppers. But if you've found a use for the thing, that's great.
No, I don’t have an iPod, and I don’t want one. The iPod is obsolete for me. My smart phone does much more. It has 2-3 times larger LCD touch screen, Bluetooth to use with stereo headphones, unlimited non-volatile storage via removable memory cards, 2 mpx still/video camera with flash, wi-fi, broadband internet, streaming web TV and radio including premium Sirius radio and, finally, phone! I also stream my entire mp3 library from my home PC to this device, so I actually don’t have to use its memory. You iPod can not do any of that! A stand alone mp3 player soon will become a niche market.
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>> And for all this talk about how well "integrated" things work, to me it means dead-end technology and lack of upgradeability.
You iPod is an integrated "dead-end technology". You can’t upgrade it, and you have to buy a new one to get more memory. I will get a new car in about 3 years anyway, and as it works with cars, I would get new clean car, with new stereo, GPS, Bluetooth, satellite radio – it’s given. But even if it would be upgradeable, I don’t think I would go through the trouble of upgrading, just like I don’t upgrade my PC, I always just buy a new one, like most people. You pay little more, but you get new HD, processor, more RAM, better video card, faster DVD burner, newer software, etc. The same happens with cars.
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>> The onboard music isn't a niche item because my car doesn't have it. I wouldn't use it, and don't want it. It's a niche item because it only benefits those who either drive a LOT and can justify confining 30GB of content to their CUV
Consumers like to have a choice. For instance, may be some people don’t listen to the radio in a car, may be they just play CDs or listen to iPods, but no one complains that the radio is available. Outlander owners have even more choices. They have a choice of either connecting the iPod or any other mp3 player to car stereo, or with a push of a button they can use onboard music server. Mazda owners don’t have that choice.
Soon, when the stand alone mp3 player will become a niche item and "dead-end technology", car entertainment center will get more advanced. It will have web browser, email-to-speech, and mp3 streaming capability. What company do you think will offer it first: Mitsu, Mazda or Subaru?
You are a funny guy (or gal). Even buying a new model, I can upgrade my iPod a lot cheaper than you can buy a new car! And as I said, the iPod and its library will follow me from to car to car, from home to work, you name it. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater...
Anyway, I'll take your bet on the standalone mp3 player becoming a niche market. Whenever you return to earth from your trip, you just might find Mitsubishi out of the US market and everybody wearing mp3 players sewn into their clothing... Cheers.
Like I’ve said, regardless of the space left on my music server I’ll buy new car in 3 years anyway to get all new technologies. Are you saying you gonna drive your Mazda much longer? Let me guess, 6-8 years? You will stick with your car after the warranty will expire, but you will have a new upgraded iPod. Well, that’s could be a strategy to get the most off your buck. I hope you have purchased the extended warranty.
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>> And as I said, the iPod and its library will follow me from to car to car, from home to work, you name it.
What’s a big deal to stick a couple of DVDs with mp3 library and copy it to the hard drive of my new car? BTW my music does not even have to “follow me from to car to car, from home to work”. It resides on my home PC which acts as streaming server - simple and free software, and I can listen to it from any connected device in the world including my PC at work, and I can share my streaming music with friends. Of course, other obsolete devices have to do things old way.
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>> you just might find Mitsubishi out of the US market
This is you wishful thinking. A car company as large as Mitsubishi would not likely to pull out of the world largest market like North America. This is too large of a market to run away from. And Mitsubishi's new management and new lineup of cars is starting to look very impressive. I wish them a success, but on the other hand, the next car I'll buy from whoever offers the best, so the completion is good for an American consumer.
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>> and everybody wearing mp3 players sewn into their clothing.
This is you wishful thinking again. Who needs to carry so many electronic devices: ipod, cellphone, digital camera, internet tablet, etc. iPod will fade away to a niche market status. Multifunctional wireless device, that’s what everybody will be “wearing sewn into their clothing”. And Bluetooth headset will be implanted into a human head :--)
After using my system for several months, the top level Outlanders have a great sound system. DVD, Music Server, Nav, Sirius, Bluetooth, and the ability to add an iPod if you want to. It is easily the best entertainment system I've had in a car.
The Music Server is a good feature, I've loaded mine up with about 30 of my favorite CD's. It is easy to use and works well. It's just one part of the total system, a nice one at that. More and more cars will be going to hard drive based systems because there are a lot of benefits.
Yeah. It makes a little more sense to try and get the payback from a $30,000 purchase than it does a $300 device. You might buy a different car after three years, but you will not find a new generation of Outlander over that timeframe. And if your music library will fit on "a couple of DVDs" then a hard drive server is not saving you much hassle over an optical drive that can play MP3s. That would be far less costly since it is already in the car. The benefits of the hard drive to the NAV system would be totally lost on someone who doesn't want NAV in their car.
"Multifunctional wireless device, that’s what everybody will be “wearing sewn into their clothing”."
Don't fall for a red herring. Call the device whatever you like; as long as it's portable and does music, it renders the in-dash music server redundant and again, a niche oddity. Yes, the devices you mention are merging - look at the iPhone as a nice example, which unfortunately does not do stereo Bluetooth (yet)... But if you really want to see the future, maybe it's A2DP streaming from portable device (in clothing or otherwise) to car. I still say a proprietary HD buried in the dash is silly, silly, silly.
As I have said, the Outlander does not have to be my next car. Outlander is not a religion - it's the best car for me for now.
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>> And if your music library will fit on "a couple of DVDs" then a hard drive server is not saving you much hassle over an optical drive that can play MP3s.
For most people 9 GB for MP3s is more then enough. Don’t forget, that majority of those 100 million iPods sold have less then that.
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>> That would be far less costly since it is already in the car.
The mp3 capability on hard drive based Nav system does not really add much extra cost, since the hard drive is already there, all they had to do is to modify the software.
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>> The benefits of the hard drive to the NAV system would be totally lost on someone who doesn't want NAV in their car.
The Nav system provides more then just navigation. That’s what people are buying:
1. Navigation system
2. Center console for all your vehicle's computer setting. You get to set all the "user selectable" settings, which otherwise you couldn't have known, unless maybe you read the 1 inch thick manual cover to cover. And otherwise some setting, like FAST Key programming could be done only at dealership.
3. MP3 CD-R, WAV, CD-Audio, DVD player.
4. Music server.
6. Display for your PS/2, Videocam.
7. Backup camera interface (optional OEM installation)
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>> Call the device whatever you like; as long as it's portable and does music, it renders the in-dash music server redundant and again, a niche oddity.
You don’t call redundant in-dash clock and in-dash Bluetooth, since it’s available in Mazda. You call redundant something Mazda does not have.
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>> Yes, the devices you mention are merging - look at the iPhone as a nice example, which unfortunately does not do stereo Bluetooth (yet)
iPhone is a good start. Unfortunately, lack of fast internet and Bluetooth stereo make it half backed. The other limitation is proprietary encryption, limited support of mp3s and dependence on iTunes.
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>> But if you really want to see the future, maybe it's A2DP streaming from portable device (in clothing or otherwise) to car.
If you really want to see the future, you will not carry around gigabytes of your music in your pocket. The simplest setup would involve only a wireless headset witch will play your music library streaming over the internet. As an option you will be able to use your cell phone LCD to navigate through your playlists. Another option for playlist navigation, and for viewing of streaming video would be a video eyeware.
This wireless device is already available in Europe. Look Ma, no iPod!
True, but your choices of vehicles to transfer your dash-loaded music will still be limited. Better yet, over that time frame, you will probably be hard-pressed to find the same magnitude of improvements in a car that you will find in a portable device.
"For most people 9 GB for MP3s is more then enough."
And yet upsizing is the trend. Last year, did you think 1GB of RAM was more than enough in your PC?
"The Nav system provides more then just navigation."
We are really only talking about item 4 in your list, which is what you purported to be a real selling point with the Mitsubishi. All the other functions, some of which might be related to the built-in HD, are still available in other cars.
"You don’t call redundant in-dash clock and in-dash Bluetooth, since it’s available in Mazda. You call redundant something Mazda does not have."
Bluetooth in a vehicle is not redundant, since it takes over the external phone controls and provides a safer way to display information. If you want a phone analogy, your music server is more like having a non-Bluetooth cellular device built into the car, like "ze Germans" did, until a few years ago.
"iPhone is a good start. Unfortunately, lack of fast internet and Bluetooth stereo make it half backed. The other limitation is proprietary encryption, limited support of mp3s and dependence on iTunes."
Totally agree that the iPhone needs 3G support and A2DP. Don't know what you mean by proprietary encryption. iTunes and iPhone both have 100% support of the mp3 format, whether the files are purchased, stolen, homemade, or "other."
"This wireless device is already available in Europe. Look Ma, no iPod!"
No Outlander, either. :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbezHgFmef8
http://outlander.jp/drivers_feeling/dri_03.html#start
http://outlander.jp/drivers_feeling/dri_03.html#start
Man! Very impressive!
Now check out this one:
Mitsubishi scores its 7th consecutive win at the Dakar Rally
BTW this is Dakar 2007 top ten list:
1. Mitsubishi Pajero
2. Mitsubishi Pajero
3. Schlesser-Ford
4. Volkswagen Race Touareg 2
5. Mitsubishi Pajero
6. BMW X3
7. Volkswagen Touareg 2
8. Hummer H3
9. Volkswagen Race Touareg 2
10. Volkswagen Buggy
Why would I want to transfer music from vehicle to vehicle? I have all my music on DVDs and would transfer it from DVD to vehicle, which is fast and easy.
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>> Better yet, over that time frame, you will probably be hard-pressed to find the same magnitude of improvements in a car that you will find in a portable device.
What kind of improvement have you got in your iPod over the last 3 years?
Tree years ago I bought Camry XLS, which was top of the line. I drove it 2 years 9 month until I replaced it with the Outlander. These are the improvements a 2004 Camry owner would get this year, if Outlander is purchased as a replacement today:
New standard features:
Dual stage air bag technology
Side and second row airbags
Tire pressure monitor
6-speed tranny
Stick shift mode with paddle shifters
Stability & Traction control
Braking Assist
Steering Wheel audio and cruise controls
Fast Key
Keyless start
LED tail lights
Odor absorbing interior
Bluetooth
MP3 capable CD player
Gasoline usage computer
New optional features:
Navigation/DVD/Music server
Heated Seats
Xenon head lights
Sirius radio
DVD player for the second row seats.
Powerful amplifier, more speakers and subwoofer
Rear view camera
Parking Sensors
I’d say you can get plenty of improvements to justify the replacement!
Speaking of Mitsu in 3 years, check out this baby, which is likely to be available in 3 years. It will use of what it calls "Green Plastic," made from bamboo and other plant-based resins, electronically controlled four-wheel-drive system and fat 19” tires. I am sure it will be packed wth innovations.
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>> Look Ma, no iPod!
>>> No Outlander, either.
I don’t think you should be wearing these video eyeware or headphones while you drive, so since iPod will be absolete, the in-dash mp3 server or in-dash wireless server would be a necessity.
I guess we've come full-circle... time for me to shut up and make way for those scads of people who will be trading in their Camrys to get the "odor absorbing interior."
Besides, there was no XLS for 2004, and about half the stuff you list was available on Camrys back then anyway. No use debating if we're just going to make stuff up.
Cheers.
And what "half the stuff you list was available on Camrys" may I ask? You are making stuff up!
A couple of features was a vailable at that time but only as an option, while these year it's standard on all cars and that's what's I indicated on my list: "standard". It had optional side air bag and only for the front row, now the Outlanders has it stadard and for all 3 rows.
And may be "odor absorbing interior" is a small fetaure, but there is half a dozen of new small features I did not even mention, which make a car better.
There was never any "engine problem" It was a software programing issue, which was solved by a computer update.
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But, it seems, one year on the market is enough to get bad review for CX-7 engine problems, which is a major reliability issue.
Where does it say that? Oh, wait, it does not. You just made it up. No where does it say the CX-7 is not reliable.
And what Mitsu dealer can I buy this car? What third party source rates it's reliability? What is the standard equipment? What are it's safety ratings? Where can I test drive this vehicle? How does it drive on the road, where 99% of people actually drive their vehicle?
Mazda is not a "rally" company. What Mitsu vehicle has it's own racing circuit? None. The MX-5 has it's own racing circuit. How about the only Japanese company to with the very tough 24hr LeMans race? Mazda with the rotary engine. Who is the current leader in the SCCA Speed World Challenge Touring Car series? Mazda does with the Mazda6, leading over Acura, BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus and many others. These races are done on pavement where 99% of vehicles are driven! The only Mitus that you can actually drive like a rally car is the EVO, and even that is detuned from what it is on the dirt track.
On any given weekend, there are more Mazdas competing on the road race tracks of America than any other brand*
*Based on Sports Car Club of America racing data.
Now back to the Outlander vs. CX-7 Vs. Tribeca...which are all driven on PAVEMENT, with offroad capability!!
I think you took the concept of competitive motorsports out of context. It's no different from asking the question, "where can I test drive an f1 car?"
Again, there are people amazed at looking cars going around in circles in a closed paved circuit, and there are others who want to see competition modified vehicles pitted against the competition in the extreme of road conditions.
Rallying is not about marketing the actual rally cars, because there's no way 99% of the driving public is able to afford one. It's more about the engineering capability of the company that participates.
Mitsubishi does not own a racing circuit, to my knowledge, because they race all over the world, where there are rallies. You are talking of Mazda being raced in the race tracks of America, Mitsubishi vehicles are being raced by private individuals in Asia, Europe, Middle East, and Americas. And most of these competitions are FIA regulated, which requires strict homologation, not some tuners getting their high running circles.
Not really. I just didn't understand why that was brought up. We were talking about what CR said about the Outlander, and he replyed with that data about a rally race from a different vehicle. It made no sence.
Rallying is not about marketing the actual rally cars
Sure it is. Look at Subaru's new WRX commercial. They show a rally WRX flipping, and the driver wanting another one. Audi also uses their rally footage, archived and current day to promote their vehilces all the time. They are not always the actual vehicles, but, darn close.
Mitsubishi does not own a racing circuit, to my knowledge, because they race all over the world, where there are rallies. You are talking of Mazda being raced in the race tracks of America, Mitsubishi vehicles are being raced by private individuals in Asia, Europe, Middle East, and Americas
As does Mazda. Mazdas are raced all over the world as well. I just have no data as to how many. That is whay I posted what the SCCA said about Mazdas in America.
See, I'm not even talking commercials here but actual rally coverage, with actual rally cars. WRX is not a rally car, it's a street car. The WRX may look like the Subaru Impreza WRC06, but that's where all similarities end, in the basic shape only. And you know why they're darn close? That's called homologation. They advertise the base car using competition model because that's the essence of competitive motorsports. Use it to showcase how well you can engineer your product. Mitsubishi has been in that tradition since its inception. That's why Mitsubishi has always been proud of its achievement in these fields. Bragging about it doesn't mean driving your Outlander in the desert and do the Dakar as some poster said in the other thread, because then that would only mean you don't even have the basic understanding of how competitive motorsports work. As a proof of this rally engineering excellence, Mitsubishi incorporates a lot of things learned from competition into their products. The Outlander was born out of the same concept car where the current Dakar champion Pajero(Montero) Evolution MPR13 was also based from. That's why the Outlander has been praised for its handling, among other things. Some call the paddle shifters gimmick, which is a rally car feature, but for me, who used to drive manual, it's a very nice compromise. It would never have the feel of a manual, but for me it's close enough. I don't think I can live with that overrevving when doing overtakes, and the paddle shifters put me in control. Power when I need it. I understand that other auto makers don't follow the same path in their vehicle design.
The turbocharger part of the engine, is not it, therefore the turbo lag qualifies as engine problem.
In CR review they talk about this problem:
“the power delivery, road noise, and interior packaging are critical weaknesses”,
“The unusual choice of a small-displacement, turbo engine in a midsized SUV results in unpleasant lulls and surges in the power delivery. The engine wakes up slowly from idling at a standstill, with a long second or two of turbo lag before the power kicks in under throttle. When merging onto a highway or accelerating from a rolling stop, the driver experiences a disconcerting pause, after which the acceleration comes on abruptly--often too strong for the desired response”,
“the engine's real-world power delivery is its Achilles' heel. The delayed throttle response and raspy sounds are simply out of place”,
“failed to impress us overall”
Regardless, CR tested a model before the major software revision which alleviated almost all of those power delivery comments. I had the original programming and then had it updated, and can tell you it is like night and day.
Sadly, with a normally aspirated engine(Outlander or otherwise), you do not have the same level of control via programming.
Well, you brought up Mazda Miata, which is unrelated to this thread; it's not even SUV. So I just responded in kind. The Outlander is at least a direct decendant of Pajero.
And reliability of Pajero is in its success. Just to get through that desert you need hell of reliability. To win the rally multiple times you need even more reliability. And you need the best AWD system to acomplish that!
I brought up the Miata because you said no Mazdas were in the top according to CR, and the Miata is. So, I brought it up. What does the Pajero have to do with CR? Nothing. See the relevance on my part, and non relevance on your part?
Just to get through that desert you need hell of reliability
That is just not true. It has to perform well, not be reliable. You would like it reliable. But, race driven vehicles tend to break, a lot. Chevy, Dodge and Ford bring their stock cars to the track every weekend. Does that make them reliable?
And you need the best AWD system to acomplish that!
Does the Outlander have the same AWD system as the Pajero? If not, the Pajero has no relevance to this thread.Are you going to drive a Outlander in the sand in Africa? I doubt it. Also, the Outlander is not marketed to the "rally" or off road crowd, like a Jeep is. So, what does rally heritage have to do with the Outlander? The only thing I can think of is it uses AWD technology that has helped win races. But, how does that correlate to the Outlander if you are not going to drive it in the desert?? Atleast Mazda uses and tests their technology on pavement, where 99% of people drive.
AWD is not the only deciding factor on how a vehicle performs. Power, suspension, weight, transmission wheel base, all have a part in how a vehicle performs. Not the AWD alone.
Of course it’s engine problem. It’s not an A/C or stereo problem. Even CR says
“the engine's real-world power delivery is its Achilles' heel. The delayed throttle response and raspy sounds are simply out of place”.
I am glad, that you fixed it, but a reliable engine does not need to be fixed on the first year.
I don’t see Miata here nor any other Mazda here:
I understand Miata won Consumer Reports “Most Fun to Drive” award, but it has nothing to do with reliability, which was a subject of this discussion. So Miata is irrelevant here.
>> That is just not true. It has to perform well, not be reliable. You would like it reliable. But, race driven vehicles tend to break, a lot. Chevy, Dodge and Ford bring their stock cars to the track every weekend. Does that make them reliable?
Dakar Rally is very tough and it goes on for weeks. You can’t replace a broken car in the middle of Rally. That’s why Chevy, Dodge and Ford never won the Dakar Rally.
>> Does the Outlander have the same AWD system as the Pajero? If not, the Pajero has no relevance to this thread.
As a proof of this rally engineering excellence, Mitsubishi incorporates a lot of things learned from competition into their products. The Outlander was born out of the same concept car where the current Dakar champion Pajero (Montero) Evolution MPR13 was also based from. That's why the Outlander has been praised for its handling, among other things. (rcpax )
>> AWD is not the only deciding factor on how a vehicle performs. Power, suspension, weight, transmission wheel base, all have a part in how a vehicle performs.
That’s right and this means, that Mitsubishi rally success is a good indication, that they know how to build quality vehicles in terms of power, suspension, transmission, wheel base and AWD.
“the engine's real-world power delivery is its Achilles' heel. The delayed throttle response and raspy sounds are simply out of place”.
CR doesn't say there's anything wrong with the engine, only the way it delivers power, which in a turbocharged engine is controlled by a computer (ECU). I don't know why I'm wasting time explaining what two or three others have already tried, but your argument about the CX-7's engine and its reliability is absurd.
I have a programmer for my turbocharged Subaru that allows me to increase hp/torque given the situation, or shut off boost from the turbo altogether. If I shut off boost the engine will feel vastly different; it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, or that the turbo is malfunctioning. It is only doing what it's been programmed to do.
In this situation it sounds like Mazda's factory ECU map was not optimized for a smooth powerband, which instead lead to sudden surges of power. There's nothing inherently wrong with that for certain kinds of cars or driving styles, but for a family-oriented CUV it isn't ideal, as it makes the car less livable in daily driving situations. Mazda should be commended for offering to change the programming for existing owners.
Yes, if there's blame to be laid, Mazda should have had the throttle map right out of the gate on a new car, without having to redesign the engine software after several months of production. The hassle is that dealers don't always automatically reflash the ECU, and so there might be customers who didn't know about the reflash and didn't request it, and subsequently still have the laggy response.
If CR re-ran their test, I suspect those comments would go away completely. But the engine they wrote about is just as reliable as the one in the new CX-7s, and the power delivery issues were only a "personality trait" of the vehicle that was not appropriate.