Dealer Maintenance Scams

mikeeee

You comment about the Jeep dealership suggesting
unnecessary maintenance items at the 15k mile
service prompted my need to write you about my
local Acura dealership's business practices.

After bringing in my 98 Acura Integra GS-R in for
it's scheduled 7.5k mile service and receiving a
bill for $175, I decided to investigate what
future, more intensive services would cost. I
found that the 15k mile service was going to be
over $300! I couldn't believe that a $20k car
would cost over $475/year for normal maintenance.

So, I requested a copy of what was included with
the 15k service. Well, it included replacement of
all fluids (radiator, brake, transmission...).
This is not even required under the "severe
conditins" schedule in the owners manual. While I
agree it is better to be safe than sorry, I hardly
agree with them just performing this service
without informing the customer.

It is because of these practices of my dealership
that I have decided to do all further minor
services myself, and take my car to a shop for the
major services.

cruiser1

Just took delivery of our new 2000 Accord. After reading some of these posts I hope the recommended scheduled maintenance doesn't take us to the cleaners.

btroy

I can't believe the unnecessary maintenance they are trying to pull over on you! I can understand a little profitable conservatism, but that is going too far! Personally, I think it's the same with oil changes. If you follow the maintenance schedule, most people won't be in there every 3000 miles, like they keep telling you.

Even worse is what they don't tell you. Many car's maintenance schedules don't mention changing a timing belt. The dealer might not tell you either. If your car has one, and it's an "interferance" engine, you have a time-bomb that's going to destroy your engine. I'll bet the car dealers love that little trick. It guarantee's that you'll be buying another car before too long.

They get you one way or the other (or both).

burdawg

Read your owners manual carefully. Remember most of us use our cars under what is considered "severe service" (lots of stop and go, short trips), so do service to that schedule. I agree that dealers do a lot that really isn't necessary, such as using fuel additives, etc. that really aren't necessary, then charging 3-5 times what it costs.
If you can, do oil changes yourself, and I still say it's cheap insurance to do them every 3,000 miles or so.
Timing belts seem to be a thing of the past, but there's still plenty of them around, so be aware!

guitarzan

I'm on my second Acura, and believe me I understand.

I did not have the 7500 miles maintenances done. When I had 30k on my Integra, I thought the valves should be adjusted, among a few other small things. Total bill was $400 or so. That was fine, because it was guestimated up front. But man, what they do for money. I had just put in Bosch platinum plugs, brand new. I even told the clerk who I dealt with to not touch the plugs. What do you think an HONEST dealer would do? Pull a plug, see it is in perfect shape, and put it back. NOoooo...they replaced the plugs with their garbage plugs (last 30k, that's why they were replaced) and charge $25 for them. Since this "little", stupid stunt, I will not patronize their maintenance schedule. It is a pure profit maker for these jokers. I do like my dealer's mechanics. They do everything right the first time, and the car comes back spotless. But, when I want something done, I have to tell them exactly what I want.

Mikeee, other than brake and exhaust parts, that Integra was CHEAP to maintain for 60k miles. You are right on track about doing things yourself. It makes these cars an even greater bargain, on top of the fact that nothing goes wrong with them.

Guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference

tonewheel

Burdawg, you say "Timing belts seem to be a thing of the past, but there's still plenty of them around." Could you clarify that? Perhaps I'm ignorant on the subject, but what car doesn't have a timing belt? Are you referring to a timing chain as opposed to a belt?

butch11

Dealers love to get their car buyers hooked into their maintenance schedules-big money maker. I do all maintenance on my honda's except replacing timing belts (have done that). Would strongly suggest changing ATF at 30K intervals on honda's using their ATF. Valve clearance does not change much between adjustments-after 50k - I check adjustment in 30K intervals. No burnt valves in almost 450K. Would suggest changing engine coolant every other year using a national brand. Also would suggest using a quality oil filter such as AC Delco-Fram has undergone serious value engineering.

rae52

2 weeks ago, rt23honda PomptainLakes, NJ, performed the 15k service on my '99 civic dx.
According to owner's manual, additives(gas. oil&transmission)are not needed. However dealer charged me $20. I notice transmission did shift smoother-it's the 5spd.

Was the dealer acting in my best interest?

guitarzan

Rae52, I'm not sure what your question refers to. I can tell you that I've had 2 Acura's, and both have needed an adjustment right out of the factory. They both would have a hard time shifting in cold weather, and one little adjustment made it smooth as silk. It was probably a clutch adjustment, but I'm not sure.

Guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference

rae52

Guitarzan, I was referring to the honda owners manual which advises owners NOT to use additives
(gas. oil&transmission).

Does American Honda advise dealers to ignore information that is provided in the owners manual?

pat455

Rae52, I think guitarzan was just saying that your question is not clear - are you saying that the dealer charged you $20 for gas/oil/transmission additives, yet your manual says you should NOT use them?

If so, did you ask the dealer? What reason was given? If you believe the dealer did something contrary to what is in the manual, if I were you, I'd sure raise holy heck 'til I got an answer that was satisfactory!

Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference

sweinman

When I bought my new '00 TL the acura dealer told me that all cars need to follow the severe service schedule and then gave me a schedule with extra brake fluid and transmission fluid changes on top of that. They recomend changing the timing belt at 60K even though the manual says 105K and they recomend changing the platinum spark plugs at 30K even though the manual again says 105K. I do not understand why I should believe that these guys know more about the maintainence of the car than the engineers who designed it. I personally do not believe that Honda is engaged in some sort of conspiracy to ruin their cars by recomending inadequate maintainence. This would cause liability nightmares for the company and their whole corporate reputation is based on reliability. The only conclusion is that the dealers are trying to make all their profits from the service dept.

agheen

Anyone have a suggestion on how to get hold of Dealer Book Rates. I am referring to the # of hours for particular jobs.

guitarzan

Right Pat!

And, if they put in an additive and charged Rae, that was NOT the cause of better shifting. On that service interval, they adjusted the CLUTCH which is why the car shifts smoothly.

UNLESS the weather is cold, and they drained it and added a completely synthetic oil, like Red Line, which they did not do...

guitarzan

Sweinman, if you're here: Your instincts are correct. Change the belt within a short period before what the manual recommends (I cannot verify your mileage number) and you can have it inspected before that also, as good measure. Platinum plugs go for 100k in many instances! (Only their NGK plugs on lesser models go bad at 30k miles...)

Acura charges to the bone for all that service. Most of what is in the manual, and the money flush that goes with it is NOT necessary. I do recommend changing fluids, like radiator every 1-2 years, having tappets adjusted periodically, you get the drift. But they're brake checks consist of sanding the pads...? Wear the pads quicker for me? They're nuts sometimes.

I've had 2 Acuras. On my Integra, I had the thing aligned every 6 months, like they told me at $60 a pop. I had the 30k maintenance, and they charged $400, including replacing brand new platinum plugs! Now, my '98 CL has 36k miles, no alignment, just a rotation, no owners manual maintenance at all and it runs perfectly straight with no problems. Guess who blew hundreds of bucks on his previous car? These things are designed to be maintenance free. Which is why Acura mechanics need to make extra money! They're bored! Your Luxury TL is just the same as a Civic in many respects, don't let them lie to you: Change the oil and go.

Now, BMW actually can use those arguments without lying to you. They need to be seen by the mechanic every 6 months starting at 30k. They're not lying!

The good thing about Acura service: Car gets washed, no grease marks on hood, things get fixed properly the first time. I feel guilty about not including these truths, after my first few paragraphs.

ccotenj

guitarzan makes a good point. i take my bimmer at regular intervals to my friendly dealer for checkups when it tells me to. they look it over, fix stuff i didn't know was broken (and not rip-offs either, they showed me the stuff) and really don't try to &*^& you too bad.

otoh, my old man's lexus is supposedly maintenance free. they charged him MORE than the bmw dealer got me for on my inspection ii last time for little more than a lookover (no tuneup, no nothing), plus they told him he needed brake pads. he asked how much, and was told 400 bucks!!! amazing.

i'm a firm believer in doing maintenance, but sometimes you gotta wonder.

-Chris

sweinman

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. I understand that the dealer will charge more than an independent shop and do not have a problem with that. I just cannot excuse them performing service in excess of what the manufacturer recomends. I personally do not believe that Honda is lying in its owners manuals. According to the dealer, 95% of the cars on the road need to follow the severe maintainence schedule even thought they are not driven in the ways defined as requiring severe. This is obviously a lie on the part of the dealer to make more profit.

ded42

Picked up our 00 Olds Alero GL-3 v-6 sedan last week and we love it. Any general advice on new car break-in would be appreciated.

cgoetze

I had taken my 88 Mazda 626 in for service because the drivers side door latch/handle wasn't working. Pleasantly surprised to find that since there had been a service recall on the latch that even though I had some 245,000 miles on it there was no charge.
Today I get a letter about the "250,000 mile scheduled maintenance". I somehow find it hard to believe that this is something car manufactures actually plan out. I suppose that the computers just take the 25,000 mile maintenance times 10 or something like that.

ccotenj

actually, 95% of all drivers really do qualify for the severe maintenance schedule. sit down and read it. the other maintenance schedule is so they can claim all these things about how long you can go between things. but if you are honest about your driving style, you'll see that you probably fall underneath the severe category. i'd say that 100% of drivers who live in any kind of metropolitan area fall in it.

good luck.

-Chris

johnyoo

Went to a toyota dealer for scheduled maintenance on a Camry and the windshield fluid was completely full when I took it in. They charged $1.50 for adding windshield fluid. If it was more would've complained. But then again I guess I can get a 20 minute phone call for just $1 according to MCI!....

tboner1965

I would have asked for my "old fluid" back before I paid the bill.

He he

TB

im_brentwood

I think that you really ought to see if there's an age limit on a timing belt. I also think that Guitarzan is 10000% right when he says to do it a little sooner.

A broken belt can ruin an engine and to repair it can be frighteningly expensive! Now, if you drive, say, 10K miles a year.. I wouldnt leave it in there for 126 Months! I'd only go with the 105K if you drive 15,000 miles per year as a minimum.

Bill

guitarzan

Check around on this site. I've seen stories of the belt braking a couple thousand miles past the change interval. The manufacturer knows what they're doing with their recommendation.

ccotenj

the above two posters are correct. these aren't to be messed with. if it says every 60k, it means it. it's an expensive job, but not nearly as expensive as an engine ripdown and rebuild.

there are certain parts of your car that you should never allow to break because of inattentive maintenance. your timing belt is definitely one.

-Chris

pundat

Does anyone know if Honda ATF is any different than the store brand ATF Dexron III? Honda owner's manual recommends using Honda ATF, but says you can use store brand ATF Dexdron III temporilly and to drain out the system and refill it with Honda ATF when you get home. I find this stupid and conflicting. Why would it be OK to use it temporilly if it is not compatible to begin with. Is Honda try to make more money from a 2000 Honda Accord V6 owner @ $5 a quart?

haspelbein

Wasn't it Henry Ford who once suggested giving away cars and just making money on parts and service ?

I've done my own service on two Fords, one Mazda Miata and am getting ready to do the same on a Mercedes I've purchased not too long ago. (It wasn't easy getting good manuals for the Mercedes. I had to order them from Germany.)
I've never had a service related problem with my cars, even though I drove some of them up to some pretty good mileage.

All my cars except for the Miata have/had timing chains. The replacement of the timing belt of the Miata would still have been within reach of the 'shadetree mechanic' (removal of fan, radiator and waterpump) if I hadn't sold it before it reached 60K miles.
But I would agree, one should replace the timing belt on time if the engine is an 'interference engine'.

Five dollars a quart is more than normal but not outrageous if we're talking about fully synthetic transmission fluid, at least as far as I'm concerned.

tboner1965

Goes for $4.99/quart at AutoZone, so no $5/quart is not unreasonable if it is a high quality fluid.

Cheers,

TB

butch11

My dealer charges me $3.60 a quart-I buy 6 quarts at a crack. Would also strongly suggest changing Honda ATF at 30K intervals. I do 100% highway and got a check engine light at 70K-was tranny problem-fluid was dark and smelled. Changed fluid and no more check engine light.

Yeah it would be interesting to know if there is an equivalent or better ATF for Honda.

gambiaman

Many car engines with timing belts have what are called non-interference engines which means if your timing belt breaks you are stranded but your engine is not damaged. In an interference engine yes it is major damage. Most Toyota's have non-interference engine and most Honda's have interference engines. Gates http://www.gates.com/ has a list that will tell you what type engine your car has.

armtdm

Recommend switching to synthetic ATF. There's Mobil 1 as well as Amsoil on the market. Not only can you extend the drains/changes but it runs cooler and protects better. Yep, around $5-$6.50 a quart but worth it. Note that some new cars are coming out with non servicable transmission using synthetics. Of course, if you are not using synthetics for the engine why both with the trans?

bolivar

Does Honda have an oil refinery?
I doubt it.
So, some oil company makes the ATF fluid for them.
For some of you that have a bottle of Honda ATF, read the label, bet it says 'Manufactored FOR Honda....', not BY.
Check the owner's manual, there should be some Honda 'specication number' for the fluid. Check the specs on a name brand ATF to see if is 'meets or exceeds' the Honda specs.

Honda cycle dealer wanted to me to buy Honda oil for motorcycle. Manual gave an API spec code, just regular motor oil.

pocahontas

Here an interesting article from Edmund's editorial features:Dealer vs. Manufacturer Maintenance Schedules, By Neil G. Chirico.

;-)

Pocahontas,
Town Hall Roving Host

pat455

And everyone should check out this new topic here:

Ask Edmunds.com's Online Service Advisor

Neil Chirico has written quite a few articles on this site; several are linked in post 0 of that topic. Additionally, he is making himself available in that topic to answer any questions Town Hall members might have about any of his articles or anything else.

So check it out! Just click on that highlighted link to get there.

Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference

dhanley

The saab dealer has increased the cost of the major services ( every 30K ) to $650. We have an indie shop do it for $150. I thought that that dealer was expensive until I heard some saturn dealers in florida are charging the same ($650) for their major services! That's nuts! The service just isn't that much work. My saturn dealer charges $200, and I think that's borderline too much.

dave

j_coleman

Can it mess up your engine if the serpentine (sp?) belt breaks?

crankky

Hey y'all,

I recently bought a 98 Millenia base (premium
pkg.) that will need its 30k service soon.

I called the local Mazda dealer and was quoted
$340. A reputable independant shop was about
$300.
However, he mentioned a couple of things that I
probably will pass on (air filter, I can do that;
rotate tires, not needed, just put new ones on
last
week).

By they way, when I got the dealer to pare his list down to just what the owners manual says (basically replace plugs and inspect everything else), it turned out to be $100 (he said they charge $7 each!!! for plugs).

Do those sound like resonable prices? Any reason
why I should go to the dealer for this?

Also, the owners manual indicates that a lot of
the items are to be "inspected". However, both
shops said that they would replace all fluids and
filters as part of this service. So, what is
actually necessary? Am I being scr$%#wed?

Thanks!

armtdm

At 30,000 almost 99% of all new cars have platinum plugs which are good for a minimum of 60,000 miles. Check your manual, I'll bet you have platinum plugs and the dealer is ripping you off to replace at 30,000

j_coleman

Do all fluids include oil, transmission, coolant, and brake fluid? Dealerships screw people on XX-mile service. You should know exactly what services your car needs, and ask for those only. As you've seen, you have saved $240 just by doing that.

armtdm

Brake fluid is not normally included in all fluids. Many coolants today are 100,000 mile fluids, transmission usually 30,000, maybe more depending on car. If a manual it never means changing the transmission and differential oils.
You need to clarify with dealer and go by the manual not what the dealer wants to do

racerx_9

It's probably a good idea to change your brake fluid at least every other year. It is hydroscopic and the more moisture it absorbs, the less effective it becomes. There is a tool that can check the boiling point of the fluid and tell you how close to original spec it is.

I would go to the dealer for at least oil changes. The Olds dealer I go to charges $20. Wal Mart is $17, so you don't save a whole lot. Last month at Wal Mart, I saw I guy with his diesal pick up truck engine literally smoking, giving off a bad burning smell. He was screaming at the oil shop guy, fresh from an oil change. My guess is they put 4 qts of oil in his 12 qt engine. At least if this happens at the dealer, they have the resources to fix their mistake. They also specialize in one or two brands of vehicles so are not as likely to make this mistake.

If you plan to keep your car for a while (10+ years), I would recommend the following. Buy the longest extended warranty you can ( I have 7yr - 100,000) miles. and follow up with the dealer maintaince. If anything goes wrong, they can't blame it on lack of maintenance, or faulty maintenance, because the dealer did it. Besides, you are establishing yourself as a good customer to the dealer, you get to know the service people and they are apt to stand behind you because they know you are a regular.

I know most of the regular maintenance stuff is just inspection, but it's nice to know it was done instead of driving around wondering if everything is OK.

isellhondas

But I have trouble feeling much sympathy for a person who would take a diesel truck to a Wal Mart for an oil change!!

adc100

Definitely agree with you. I have friends who take their $30,000 vehicals to Jiffylube to have some $6/hour flunky put on a new filter without inspecting it, without properly wiping and lubricating the gasket surface, propably getting dirt in the filter, not allowing the oil to fully drain, crossthreading the plug- I could go on.