Towing with a Forester

paisan

Brakes as Bob said are the big one. I routinely tow over my limit on my Armada, but just know that if you are towing over the stated manufacturer's limit your car and/or trailer insurance will refuse to pay any claim. I run this risk every time I tow my boat and currently am looking to downsize due to this liability issue.

-mike

p0926

I'm sure your Forester can tow 2500 lbs but with the following caveats:

a. You should have trailer brakes since it's over 1000 lbs
b. If towing beyond short distances, a transmission cooler would be extremely helpful.
c. When towing something almost as heavy as your Forester, be aware that the emergency handling will be severely compromised.

-Frank

xwesx

c. When towing something almost as heavy as your Forester, be aware that the emergency handling will be severely compromised.

Be constantly aware on this point.

aatherton

"a. You should have trailer brakes since it's over 1000 lbs
c. When towing something almost as heavy as your Forester, be aware that the emergency handling will be severely compromised."

The purpose of the trailer brakes is not only to help the car's brakes, but also to help emergency handling. For instance, without trailer brakes, applying the car's brakes causes the trailer to push on the ball, if the car is not going in a straight line, this push will force the rear end to the outside and begin a jacknife.

I noticed this only once and it scared me so I never let it happen again. One rainy day I was pulling our 2,000 boat with our Mazda pickup, and braked gently to round a tight turn on a little 2-lane road. Suddenly the braking made the trailer begin pushing the back of the truck around to the outside of the turn. To stop this I had to release the brakes and coast, so the trailer would follow the truck instead of pushing it to the side. That meant taking the turn a lot faster than was safe, out of control.

If the trailer had had brakes, the trailer brakes would have made the trailer pull on the hitch, instead of push on it. So the trailer would not have tried to keep going straight and push the back of the truck around.

aatherton

"b. If towing beyond short distances, a transmission cooler would be extremely helpful."
What does extremely helpful mean?
The Forester is rated at 2400 lbs and the manual does not say a transmission cooler is part of that rating, like it says about trailer brakes.

rsholland

What kind of trailer brakes were they? Surge brakes, or electric brakes?

With electric brakes you can control the amount of braking needed with an interior-mounted electronic brake control, not so with surge brakes. Surge brakes are really not very good.

Bob

p0926

The purpose of the trailer brakes is not only to help the car's brakes, but also to help emergency handling.

And they do indeed "help" but you still have to be aware that you're towing a trailer and modify your driving accordingly.

What does extremely helpful mean?

He has a previous generation Forester that is only rated to tow 2000 lbs so if he's gonig to be towing a significant distance then I think a transmission cooler would be a good idea.

-Frank

paisan

I would add that using a controller that has an inersial(sp?) controller on electric brakes makes a big difference. Some of the cheaper controllers apply the brakes based on the brake-light circuit (the longer you are on the brakes, the longer it applies them, no matter how hard or softly you hit the brakes)

On surge brakes, it depends on the application. I tow a 10,500lb triple axle boat trailer with my Armada and it has surge brakes w/discs on it and it does pretty well with the surge brakes. There are 2 reasons to get surge brakes on a trailer, mostly if it's a boat trailer you would have surge brakes due to the electric brake components getting wrecked in the water, the other reason would be if you lend your trailer out to various friends who probably don't have controllers.

I would say though Electric over Hydrolic > Electric > Surge > No Brakes.

-mike

aatherton

"... Does having all-wheel drive make a difference?"

Only in terms of traction. Maybe not so important with an RV trailer. With our 2000 lb boat on a compact pickup truck, there were several ramps that I declined to use for lack of traction.

If the ramp was steep, and the water's edge was covered with mud or algae, then the tires would spin on pull out. If the boat was pulled partly out of the water, and the tires were spinning with no hold, the boat would try to return to the water, pulling the truck back with it. By the time the boat was buoyant again and stopped pulling, the rear of the truck could be pretty deep in the water. This spinning and loss of forward motion began to happen a couple of times, and so I just avoided such ramps.

With 4WD or the Forester's AWD in 50/50 mode, this would not happen.

xtop

I am constantly aware of the effect the trailer has on handling and braking. Thanks for your concern.

xtop

The trailer in question has mechanical surge brakes and they do work very well as we have found after two recent trips. The tow rating for the manual transmission Subaru is 2400 lbs. A transmission cooler for a manual transmission is rather difficult as some sort of pump must be added to circulate the lubricant through the cooler. Ordinary manual transmissions use splash lubrication and have no internal oil pumps. We have the turbocharged Subaru and probably the greatest problem we have found is that under heavy load the turbo cuts in and the mileage goes way down to 12-13. On a flat land trip, towing, with little or no wind it stays up around 16-17. We will accept this until we look into something with a bit more reserve power. The options are: drive the Subaru and get 24-27 on the highway when unladen, 12-17 when towing or trade up to something larger that gets 18-21 unladen and 15-16 when towing. Sounds like we will stay with Subaru. The new Forester will warrant a look when it comes out in a few years. I am told that it will grow in size a bit. We will see when it arrives. We do love our Forester XT.

paisan

Yeah I think we were assuming it had an AT when we suggested a tranny cooler. I would upgrade to Synthetic gear lube in the trans and diffys.

The new forester is out will be arriving here in Feb IIRC. Larger but powerplants will likely stay similar.

-mike

rsholland

The new Forester will warrant a look when it comes out in a few years. I am told that it will grow in size a bit.

A few years? It will debut in Japan on Christmas, and here at the Detroit Auto Show next month. It should be in dealers this spring, or so the rumor goes.

But this should tickle your interest:

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/3888

Bob

p0926

Yeah I think we were assuming it had an AT when we suggested a tranny cooler

Ditto. I've also got a MT XT but towing is the one exception where I think an AT makes more sense. I about burned out the clutch trying to back a loaded Uhaul trailer up a narrow driveway

-Frank

rsholland

I couldn't agree more Frank. I think towing with a manual tranny Subaru (or any car), you're just asking for trouble. Towing with a manual in HD trucks, that's a different story, as those manual trannys and clutches are designed for that kind of abuse.

Bob

xtop

They can be delicate and they do start smelling of burnt lining quickly. We will see what happens over time. Good automatics are better for towing, I agree. I could probably have two clutches put in for the cost in initial purchase and gas mileage with the automatic, however.

We will find out next summer.

Fred

xwesx

Yes, it is a whole different form of driving when you are pulling a heavy trailer without brakes. I have pulled trailers weighing anywhere from 800# to over 12000# without trailer brakes (these were all trailers with electric brakes or no brakes, and I do not have an electric brake controller on my '69 C20), and anything that weighs more than about 1500# noticeably impacts the handling and response of the truck. The manual transmission performs superbly, though.... It still has the original clutch after 38 years and 72,000 miles!

aatherton

"... We have the turbocharged Subaru and probably the greatest problem we have found is that under heavy load the turbo cuts in and the mileage goes way down to 12-13. ..."

Seems almost abusive and a terrible price to pay in terms of wear and fuel cost. The XT is not a Cummins. The XT's turbo must be designed for bursts of acceleration rather than steady towing.
That was one of the reasons I chose the NA automatic LL Bean for towing.

xtop

It might be abusive if the vehicle were not so well treated otherwise. The towing only happens occasionally. You might be surprised how much the turbo is called on in ordinary driving. We live in the Rocky Mountains and traverse steep multi-mile grades all the time. The turbo starts to come online as low as 2500 RPM. It actually is more regulated by throttle opening than RPM in most cases. That's why it comes in under heavier throttle applications. It may be "abusive and terrible" but that's the way it is.

The automatics are not normally very fuel efficient in my experience. We have several friends with AT non-turbo Foresters and we get better mileage under normal circumstances. The tow-load rating is lower for the automatics as well.

I can't afford nor do I want a Cummins or any other diesel truck. The engines alone cost several thousands extra on top of the vehicles which tend to be in the $35-45,000 range. They are, of course, much more durable but the maintenance is rather high on them when it is done properly. We drove a diesel car in Europe and it would be just fine for us but the few manufacturers that offer passenger car diesels in the U.S. are not on my shopping list. That may change.

Subaru offers diesels overseas, but not here. If they start offering them here, I might consider buying one. They certainly are good for towing.
Thank you for your concern,
Fred

aatherton

"... The tow-load rating is lower for the automatics as well. "

Where do you find this? The 2008 brochure says 2400 lbs for any and all, regardless of engine or transmission.

xtop

Hello:

Sorry for the delay. We just got back in town. The owner's manual, I believe, has different figures for the two transmissions. I will check it again when I get some sleep to make sure.

Fred

aatherton

"... The owner's manual, I believe, has different figures for the two transmissions."

Not exactly. See page 8-19.
The figures are the same for the two transmissions.
Except, for the AT, the 2400 lbs is reduced to 1000 lbs when towing a trailer on a long uphill grade continuously for over 5 miles with an outside temperature of 104F or above.

p0926

Depends on the model year. The manual for the 2004s lists 2400 lbs for both turbos and the normally aspirated MT but the non-turbo AT is only rated at 2000 lbs. I have no clue why it's different nor what induced them to revise it :confuse:

-Frank

jontautic

I'm buying a 2009 Subaru Forester 2.5 X Premium but I will be using it to tow my jet ski. Total weight of the ski, with fuel and trailer is about 1,200 pounds and the trailer does not have trailer brakes...would this present a problem to tow or should I be fine?

rsholland

The owners manual says anything over 1000 pound should have trailer brakes, but I think you'll be okay.

Bob

ateixeira

You are over the unbraked limit for nearly every manufacturer.

See if you can lighten it up as much as possible, perhaps by loading the gear inside the cargo area of the car instead of under the seat of the jet skis.

I towed with my 98 (also over that 1000 lb limit) and noticed braking distances were a lot greater. Still, I managed OK, taking is easy. No harm to the Forester, which was reliable for the 9 years I had it, until I sold it.

aatherton

"... 1,200 pounds and the trailer does not have trailer brakes...would this present a problem to tow or should I be fine?"

The car will be fine. You will only be as fine as your driving care. I towed a 2000-lb boat for many years, without trailer brakes, never feeling the need for them, or knowing what they were for.

Until one rainy day I entered an unexpectedly sharp turn on a rural road at 45 mph, felt it was too fast, and applied the brakes as I entered. The trailer being at an angle to the car in the turn, it began to push the rear and of the car around. I had to get off the brakes and roll around the turn without slowing. After that I was very aware of what side-force on my hitch could do.

You will be fine, as long as you don't brake too hard in the middle of a turn or have to do a panic stop. In a panic stop, you expect to not stop as fast as a bare car, but what you don't expect is that with the slightest deviation from a straight line stop, the trailer can push the rear end of the car to the side and then jack knife it, instantly.

xtop

In two weeks we're heading from Frisco, Colorado to Santa Fe, Sun City, Lake Havasu City, and Moab. Then, three days later, we're heading to Mesa Verde, CO for their birding festival. I attempted to find a place to mount the new battery isolator and couldn't find an appropriate spot. I even removed the grill and headlamp to no avail. I am loathe to run too much cable around the engine compartment so I am looking at alternative batteries and such to open up some space. I have also been told of a coil over suspension replacement with adjustable ride height that might work for raising the rear just a tad more.

This will be our first really long trip and it's a shakedown for an even longer trip to upstate New York in July. I may be able to get the new suspension, battery and its isolator in by then.

Good luck on the trailer brakes. Fortunately, our little T@B trailer at least has inertia brakes and they have worked well so far.

I'm going out to pick up our trailer from its storage on the 19th and we're leaving on the 23rd. Wish us luck, please.

Fred

aatherton

"... I am looking at alternative batteries and such to open up some space."

Check out the Odessey PC680 and tray kit from PPI:
http://www.paradigmperformance.net/products/forester/batt.html

Specs on the Odessey:
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc680.htm

xtop

Yup, that's the one I'm looking at. Wayne at Paradigm says it works in Michigan winters so it should work in the Colorado Rockies.

Did you look at the coil overs for the Forester?

Fred

paisan

Where in upstate NY? and when you come out make sure to let me know, maybe we'll hookup.

-mike

xtop

Mike:

Waaaay upstate in New York. We will be at Clark Point, NY which is on the northeast shore of Lake Ontario. It's north and west of Syracuse about 50 miles. My wife is from Watertown which is another 25-30 miles north. We'll be there from 7/17 to around 7/21 or so then back down to I-80 and on back to Colorado.

Where are you?

Fred

xtop

Hey all: Our Forester is having a slight problem with the speed/cruise control. If it's been driven for a while it will start shutting the cruise control off somewhere around 80-85 MPH. It seem to do it more when it's a warm day and will do it often in hilly areas where the speed runs past the set speed on the downhill sections. That's if it's speed is set to just under the point where it regularly cuts out. It started doing it a few months ago and I keep forgetting about it because we don't get out and drive like that very often.

Has anyone had this problem? I hate to take it to the dealer because it's one of those things that's practically impossible to demonstrate around here.

Fred

ateixeira

85mph? Steady cruise?

Forget that, where do you live? I'm moving there!

aatherton

"... Forester is having a slight problem with the speed/cruise control... it will start shutting the cruise control off somewhere around 80-85 MPH."

I think the cruise control ceases to work over about 85 mph, by design.

xtop

The place I noticed the speed control problem was on Interstate 25 in New Mexico, south of Albuquerque. The flow of traffic there runs at 80MPH+. I usually just run at around a true 80, according to the GPS. The speed limit is 75MPH.

As far as the speed control ceasing to work above 85, that isn't true. I've used it at over 90MPH for just a couple of miles and it always worked fine until recently. The true problem was that, eventually, the maintainable speed would drop to the point where I couldn't keep up the speed limit. It did that on one trip back from Arizona. It got as low as 65-70 before it improved.

On one of the other Forester forums they seem to have isolated the cause as a bad neutral safety switch on the manual transmission models. I will be looking into that as it is supposedly easy to diagnose. You just push the gear lever a bit tighter against its limit stop and the cutting out problem goes away if it is the switch. Isn't the internet great? Some of those forum contributors have found that their speed control will work to up around 95MPH. I hadn't gotten to that extreme, personally.

Fred

paisan

I'm in the Adirondacks about 50 miles NW of Albany. I'll try to make it out for a visit!

On the cruise it will cutout on subies at 92mph. Same on my nissans.

-mike

xtop

Hey Mike, that's a beautiful area. We've driven through there a couple of times.

92MPH = 150KPH Makes a nice round number so that makes sense. I just want it to maintain at a mere 80MPH. We have lots of 75MPH speed limits out here in the west and the pickup trucks tend to run at 85MPH. However, when we tow the trailer, we run right around 70MPH as the MPG drops fast above that speed.

Fred

paisan

Could you have been rolling up over 92mph? If so that's why it was being disabled.

-mike

xtop

Nope. It only takes a mile or two over the set speed to cut it off sometimes. It can be very intermittent and almost seems to be temperature and time-at-speed dependent. That's what makes it difficult to diagnose. When we go to Arizona, it will be easy to check to see if the neutral safety switch is the problem.

Unfortunately the switch has to be replaced from under the car. I may try to replace it down there as we will have some down time once we arrive.

We're having another one of our blizzards of 2008 again so we are soooo looking forward to getting down there in the warmth.

Fred

p0926

Fred- I've had similar problems with the curise control on my 04 XT 5-speed. In my case, it kept disengaging shortly after being set. It first did it probably 2-3 years ago on a road trip but then it didn't do it again until the drive out to Arizona. One day it would work and the next it wouldn't. That was a year and a half ago and it's acted up only one time since. Of course taking it to the dealer when it's working is a good way to waste time and money so I'm really interested to know if the neutral safety switch is the problem.

-Frank

xtop

Frank: I will post if anything happens. Unfortunately, we are not taking a trip without the trailer so the speeds may not be high enough to trigger the problem.

Fred

paisan

Had the cruise issue on my legacy this pas week. Found out there is a TSB on the ECU for it IIRC. I will let you know if/when I bring it in and what the final outcome is.

-mike

xtop

Hey Mike: That would be super! We're shoving off for AZ on Wednesday but I will be able to check your results.
Fred

xwesx

This is a high-quality unit and looks very good on the vehicle. It took about an hour to install, including the necessary (but minor) modification to the holes in the frame rails. The unit cost me $137.00 delivered and I am very glad I went this route rather than the factory hitch (with 1.25" receiver). Best of all is that I will be able to use all of the trailering equipment I have accumulated for my pickups.

26cars

That hitch looks real good; I have the factory one and although it works fine I am not that fond of the way it looks. Plus, it was grossly overpriced.

ateixeira

Looks good, and it sits nearly flush with the bumper, too.

You may have lost a teeny-tiny bit in terms of departure angle, but no ground clearance at all.

xwesx

I considered the factory hitch (I ordered my car, so I considered adding the hitch to the order), but the main stumbling block for me was the cost combined with the fact that it was a class II (1.25" receiver).

I likely will not tow more than a couple times a year, but I also wanted the hitch to replace the hokey screw-in eye hook for vehicle recovery. I don't know that I would trust the integrity of a class II hitch receiver when using it to pull vehicles out of ditches....

xwesx

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by that as well. The hitch is nearly flush with the bumper shell (about 1" short of it), so I do lose a little bit of departure angle, but no ground clearance. However, I doubt there will be many, if any, times that I will lament the lost of angle. And, in the rare instance it is a problem, I might just be happy that I hit the receiver instead of tearing up my bumper shell!

ateixeira

Yep. I went off roading with a buddy in his Bronco, and he kept slamming the hitch when we hit sharp angles.

There was no damage at all in the end.