Mazdaspeed 3 or Mini Cooper S

roadburner · January 2008

The Crossfire guy sounds more like he's trying to convince himself than anyone else. No German car (BMW included) scores high on long term reliabilty in any publication. The marketing ploy of a "Lifetime Warrenty" by Chrysler is a desperate act of a company in serious trouble.

Sounds like someone is a bit envious... :P

If you want to LEASE a Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Volkswagen, be my guest. They are sporty and well-mannered...for about 20,000 miles, so purchasing them should be something left to rental car companies.

Wow, thanks for the heads up! Hmmm... I currently own a Mazdaspeed3 as well as two BMWs- a 1995 3 Series that I bought new as well as a 2004 CPO X3 I picked up in 2005. The maintenance and repair costs for my 3 Series have averaged less than $45/month over the life of the car. And that figure includes ALL maintenance and repair expenses as well as three sets of 16" Z-rated rubber. I've replaced one set of pads/rotors, the serpentine belts and idlers, the timing chain tensioner(DIY $55 and 10 minutes), a brake light switch and a thermostat. That's it. Did I mention that it also sees several track days per year? As for the X3, the sole defect has been a SRS sensor replaced under warranty. At 56K it looks and runs like new- and I've spent a grand total of $23/month on maintenance over the two years I've owned the car. You see, I've found that the majority of people who chant the "BMWs are gosh-awful expensive to fix" mantra usually aren't owners. In most cases they have no personal experience with owning or maintaining a BMW. They're just relying on second, third, or fourth-hand information- "My cousin's dentist had a patient who knew a friend that talked to some guy at a party, and the guy told him that he overheard somebody at Walmart say that they read somewhere on the internet that it cost $1500 to change the oil in a BMW."

itssavvy · January 2008

Not even a little envious.

Isn't interesting as you listed the numerous repairs to your vehicles (supporting my argument), along with the pasting of my argument, you forgot to paste pretty crucial thing.

"No German car (BMW included) scores high on long term reliabilty in any publication."

You will never find me or any friend of mine (Acura and Infiniti owners) talk about our personal experiences with BMW. Why? Because we were smart enough to do our homework first. I honestly don't care about the cost of oil changes or other repairs. Makes no difference to me. My issue is frequency. How can I enjoy my 3 series or my Passat, or my SLK, when it's spending more time at the shop than it is with me?

I'm sorry you felt the need to buy for status sake. I honestly hope you get over it. Maybe the Speed 3 will put you over that hump. If you have, or know someone that has had good luck with them, great. You just won the lottery. You're driving around in the exception to the rule, but it is a rule and the data supports it.

Argue with me all you want, but arguing with data is a waste.

roadburner · January 2008

Wow! So much incisive commentary to address. I'll have to give it my best shot...

Isn't interesting(sic) as you listed the numerous repairs to your vehicles (supporting my argument), along with the pasting of my argument, you forgot to paste pretty(sic) crucial(sic) thing.

"No German car (BMW included) scores high on long term reliabilty in any publication."

I didn't mention it because it's simply false.

You will never find me or any friend of mine (Acura and Infiniti owners) talk about our personal experiences with BMW.

Ah yes, reverse fanboy snobbery. Your lack of experience invalidates any of your statements about BMWs.

Because we were smart enough to do our homework first.

Let me guess- today in 7th grade study hall?

I honestly don't care about the cost of oil changes or other repairs. Makes no difference to me. My issue is frequency. How can I enjoy my 3 series or my Passat, or my SLK, when it's spending more time at the shop than it is with me?

Well, my BMWs get serviced every 7500 miles. My Mazda sees the shop every 5000, primarily because the 2.3 DISI turbo motor pretty much wears out the oil in less than 6000 miles- based on UOAs performed by myself and others. That's not a knock on the MS3, just a fact.

I'm sorry you felt the need to buy for status sake. I honestly hope you get over it.

This from someone who prefers Acuras and Infinitis over Hondas and Nissans. Oh, wait- they ARE Hondas and Nissans. And I doubt I'll "get over it" any time soon; see, I've owned eight Bimmers going back to 1983. And I've driven them in HPDEs at venues such as Memphis Motorsport Park, Motorsport Ranch, Mid Ohio, NHIS, Putnam Park, and Sears Point. I also have a few autocross trophies as well.

You're driving around in the exception to the rule, but it is a rule and the data supports it.

Look, I don't know if you are eight or eighteen, but you've admitted that you don't have any experience with BMWs whatsoever, so it's pointless to argue with you- particularly in this topic. Why don't you post some of you irrefutable arguments over in one of the sports sedan comparison topics? In the meantime, enjoy your rebadged Honda or Nissan(assuming you actually own one).

itssavvy · January 2008

Wow someone is getting rather personal. I regret you felt the need to go there.

While I likely don't have the snow on the roof that you do, you can pull the thermometer out, and it would reveal that I still have more degrees than you do.

You have again supported my argument. Eight "Bimmers" since 1983? Was that with or without Cappuccino? I've owned a total of three cars since 1996, and the number is that high because one of them was totaled in an accident in 1999. The remaining two were/are Mazdas (I never said I owned and Acura or an Infiniti...check the reference and fight illiteracy, I was referring to my friends). That said, I would be proud to own a TL S-Type. It's a better use of power and superior handling when compared to any Accord.

Nothing false about the data. Check C&D, check CR, check Motor Trend, check...oh yeah, EDMUNDS. They'll all say the same thing, outstanding engineering, great driving experience, thoughtful interiors, but no longevity.

For a good laugh, I would pay any reputable automobile correspondent to say out loud, "German cars are more reliable in the long term than Japanese cars." without so much as cracking a smile. It would be tantamount to some dry Bob Newhart humor.

roadburner · January 2008

Someone is getting rather personal with all this. Sorry you felt the need to go there.

Translation:

You've again supported my argument. You've owned eight "Bimmers" since 1983.

That's because I wanted to- not because I had to. Variety is the spice of life...

Nothing false about my data.

Really? Lets see...

Check CR

OK, it seems that they currently recommend the Three, Five, and Seven. And I think they added the X3 this year as well. That said, I get nervous when the safety weenies at CR like the same cars I do. When they recently endorsed the MS3 I was almost tempted to sell it... :P

check Car and Driver

Refresh my memory, just how many times has a BMW been on the CD "10 Best List"? Since 1992 I think. Now, let's see if you can point me to a negative CD long term test of a BMW.

check Motor Trend

You're joking, right?

oh yeah, EDMUNDS

Fair enough; here are some of their Long Term Test comments:

1999 BMW 328i: "If you can find a way to embrace or excuse the cultural implications of the propeller badge -- and if you can find any way at all to fit a 3 Series car into your budget -- we highly recommend it. Go easy on the options -- this car is best when driven."

2002 745Li: "After two years of driving this incredible car, we enthusiastically endorse it  the car that is, not the iDrive system. BMW has improved on the previous car's already excellent handling, while crafting a larger interior that oozes comfort and grace. We will admit that the iDrive feature becomes more user-friendly with time, but it has, for the most part, been unreliable and frustrating.
We are tempted to put a caveat on our endorsement of the car as a whole simply because of the early glitches in our iDrive module. We required two module replacements and two "resets" in the first seven months  that is unacceptable in a $75,000 car. The stability we've enjoyed in the iDrive system in our last months of ownership has somewhat restored our confidence in BMW's engineers."
They did ding Munich on the iDrive- and rightfully so. But they still recommend the car. Hmmm...

2002 330i: "Our ownership experience was genuinely pleasant. We took in the car once for maintenance and for minor detailing prior to reselling it. While our 330i's clean bill of health does not vouch for a problem-free future, the car certainly met our expectations in terms of quality and dependability during its first two years."

2005 X3: "Unfortunately, one summer day, our X3 was the innocent victim in a rear-end collision. The BMW was hauled away by flatbed and spent three weeks at the body shop while the mechanical and body repairs were made. The total repair bill for that single accident was a whopping $7,901.52.
If we were forced to note one serious complaint about our 18,000 miles in the X3, it would likely be the time it was tied up in the body shop. While the stiff city ride that comes with the sport package was not always appreciated, we do value the handling and the highway manners of the X3. With its manageable size, sporty nature and new DVD system, the X3 was one of the most popular vehicles in our test garage."

2001 530i: "With its odometer pushing 75,000 miles, it was hard not to be impressed with our 530i. There are new cars that don't feel as solid on the road, and anyone who saw it wouldn't have guessed it was a five-year-old car well on its way to 100,000 miles. The materials inside still looked good, and there was rarely a feature that we wished it had. If we judged it on nothing more than how it felt at speed on the highway or while cutting through a winding road, we would have nothing to complain about.
The purpose of a long-term test, however, is to look a little deeper, and in this case we didn't have to look far to see the downside to owning this BMW. We liked the 530i when it worked, but far too often it was plagued by nagging problems that required constant attention from the dealer. None of the problems left us stranded on the roadside, but sitting at the dealer isn't much better."
Now, the cooling system on the E39s CAN be a problem I'll admit, but Edmund's dealer hosed them but good. My local dealer or my indie shop would have fixed the problems for up to 75% less. I still wish I had kept my wife's E39 for my work beater instead of my Jeep TJ, but at the time I needed to keep a domestic vehicle in the garage for job-related reasons.

2006 330i: "With the exception of $1.39 for a gallon of wiper fluid and the $334.19 replacement of a damaged tire, BMW's four-year/50,000-mile maintenance warranty covered all costs on the upkeep of our 3 Series. A radio static issue requiring the rear window to be replaced also fell under warranty.
BMW raised the bar again with the 330i. We welcomed it into our fleet with open arms and it left its mark on us. Its departure took with it several editors desperate for one more chance to drive while the rest lay in tears. It will be missed."

Wow, you nailed it; Edmunds DOES hate BMWs...

Look, you like Mazdas, and you appear to value reliability above all else. I like BMWs. Lots of them(not to mention MS3s, Speed Triples, and 993s). And I'll suffer the odd glitch or two in exchange for an involving RWD driving experience on the street as well as the track. The thing is, I don't feel compelled to slam your choices in order to justify my decisions. But hey, if it helps you to feel better about what you drive, keep telling yourself that BMWs are all about hype and status. I just know that I don't lie awake at night wondering if I should have bought something else.

itssavvy · January 2008

1999 BMW 328i: "If you can find a way to embrace or excuse the cultural implications of the propeller badge -- and if you can find any way at all to fit a 3 Series car into your budget -- we highly recommend it. Go easy on the options -- this car is best when driven."

- No mention of reliability

2002 745Li: "After two years of driving this incredible car, we enthusiastically endorse it  the car that is, not the iDrive system. BMW has improved on the previous car's already excellent handling, while crafting a larger interior that oozes comfort and grace. We will admit that the iDrive feature becomes more user-friendly with time, but it has, for the most part, been unreliable and frustrating.
We are tempted to put a caveat on our endorsement of the car as a whole simply because of the early glitches in our iDrive module. We required two module replacements and two "resets" in the first seven months  that is unacceptable in a $75,000 car. The stability we've enjoyed in the iDrive system in our last months of ownership has somewhat restored our confidence in BMW's engineers."
They did ding Munich on the iDrive- and rightfully so. But they still recommend the car. Hmmm...

The only mention of reliability is negative

2002 330i: "Our ownership experience was genuinely pleasant. We took in the car once for maintenance and for minor detailing prior to reselling it. While our 330i's clean bill of health does not vouch for a problem-free future, the car certainly met our expectations in terms of quality and dependability during its first two years."

The bold portions speak for themselves. They had to enter those caveats because they know about the BMW reputation for long-term reliability.

2005 X3: "Unfortunately, one summer day, our X3 was the innocent victim in a rear-end collision. The BMW was hauled away by flatbed and spent three weeks at the body shop while the mechanical and body repairs were made. The total repair bill for that single accident was a whopping $7,901.52.
If we were forced to note one serious complaint about our 18,000 miles in the X3, it would likely be the time it was tied up in the body shop.* While the stiff city ride that comes with the sport package was not always appreciated, we do value the handling and the highway manners of the X3. With its manageable size, sporty nature and new DVD system, the X3 was one of the most popular vehicles in our test garage."

* - A point I made about two posts ago.

2001 530i: "With its odometer pushing 75,000 miles, it was hard not to be impressed with our 530i. There are new cars that don't feel as solid on the road, and anyone who saw it wouldn't have guessed it was a five-year-old car well on its way to 100,000 miles. The materials inside still looked good, and there was rarely a feature that we wished it had. If we judged it on nothing more than how it felt at speed on the highway or while cutting through a winding road, we would have nothing to complain about.
The purpose of a long-term test, however, is to look a little deeper, and in this case we didn't have to look far to see the downside to owning this BMW. We liked the 530i when it worked, but far too often it was plagued by nagging problems that required constant attention from the dealer. None of the problems left us stranded on the roadside, but sitting at the dealer isn't much better."

Again supporting my point from two posts ago.

2006 330i: "With the exception of $1.39 for a gallon of wiper fluid and the $334.19 replacement of a damaged tire, BMW's four-year/50,000-mile maintenance warranty covered all costs on the upkeep of our 3 Series. A radio static issue requiring the rear window to be replaced also fell under warranty.
BMW raised the bar again with the 330i. We welcomed it into our fleet with open arms and it left its mark on us. Its departure took with it several editors desperate for one more chance to drive while the rest lay in tears. It will be missed."

Another lottery winner, but still riddled with admittedly minor issues.

I never said Edmunds hated anyone. I said they would never claim BMW is a reliable ride, and guess what, you showed I was right. You've supported my contention three times. It's the third strike.

Stop now, we're all begging you. We all know it is a superior driving experience...in the short-term. I maintain and have proven (with your help) that BMW (among other German makers) are unreliable vehicles.

roadburner · January 2008

Stop now, we're all begging you. We all know it is a superior driving experience...in the short-term. I maintain and have proven (with your help) that BMW (among other German makers) are unreliable vehicles.

Who's all? You are the one trolling with a grand total of five -count'em- FIVE posts. The other members here will easily determine who actually knows what they are talking about. But as I said before, if running down Bimmers makes you feel better about yourself as well as the transportation appliances you own and operate(I sincerely doubt that drive is the appropriate term) be my guest. But unlike you, instead of secretly coveting a BMW(or MS3, for that matter), I'll be driving one. Anyway, it's high time that I took Dilbert's famous advice- and place you on my "Ignore" list...

itssavvy · January 2008

Oh no!!!!!
Not ignore!!!!
The tell tale sign of a lost argument.

As far as driving is concerned, I'd remove the cruise control from my 3 if I could.

Congratulations on counting my posts, likely the same as the IQ count on your part.

I've never "run down 'Bimmers'" (such a cute name). I simply said, "Lease, but don't buy." Which considering your car count, you've more or less done. You supported my argument through documentation. Chalk it up and move on, you're through.

networkguy · January 2008

FWIW. I work with a guy who found his dream car at a reasonable price. It was a used 2001 Z3M. He also thought he was buying a warranty at the same time. Turns out there was no extended warranty. There were a few minor problems with the car. The cost to repair said minor problems was about 1700 bucks. He had the work done. Six months later he was looking at another 500 or so to repair something else. He ended up selling the car. His quote was something along the lines of 'I could afford to buy it, just not own it.'

itssavvy · January 2008

It's worth gold Network. The other guy will choose to ignore it because he enjoys his perceived status, but facts are facts.

Thanks for your input.

rascal99 · January 2008

I really resisted the temptation to get involved with this fruitless argument; however, when I owned a BMW some years ago a guy in my office was relentless about chiding me about my "beamer" at every opportunity. So, this stuff touches a nerve (and I have a few minutes before UFC fight night starts). Not everyone buys a BMW, Audi, etc. for "status" reasons. Some buy for performance reasons. The 3-series is the most "decorated" car on the market, for good reason. I have owned two BMW's in my life and I certainly didn't buy them for status reasons. I bought them for performance and comfort. BMW and Audi have "average" reliability. So what. If you want to exploit some "kink in the armour" go ahead, but the argument is getting a bit old by now.
BTW, I am lurking here because I am interested in another great performance car, the MS3! What stereotype can be applied to driving this one? Help me out.

roadburner · January 2008

BTW, I am lurking here because I am interested in another great performance car, the MS3!

The MS3 is an excellent high performance bargain. Much like BMW's M division, Mazdaspeed modifies the entire car, including items that the average driver would never see or notice. As a result, the Mazda 3 is transformed from a competent econobox into a legitimate performance car. One of the reasons I bought the MS3 is because we are seeing more and more FWD cars(mostly Minis and GTIs) at BMW CCA driving schools- and as a CCA instructor I wanted to have a better understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the FWD configuration. The Mini was too small(I needed a usable rear seat,) VWoA wouldn't allow me to order a GTI the way I wanted it(no sunroof, cloth seats, seat heaters, and premium sound), and I thought that the A3 was a bit expensive for what you get(great interior, though). After 11K I'd say that most of my gripes about the MS3 are minor. Clutch engagement is very abrupt, but I've adapted. The OBC lacks a readout in the IP cluster, and the xenon lights function on low beam only. Service intervals are 50% more frequent than my E36 3 series(5K as opposed to @7.5K-depending on the SI system), and they need to be as my used oil analysis and that of others indicate that the DISI engine really does a number on its oil. Fortunately, my dealer gives free 5K oil changes for as long as I own the car- though I do have to bring my own Mobil 1 5W-30. To be fair, the reduced oil life is apparently a result of the direct injection technology, since the VW/Audi 2.0T, the Audi RS4 V8, and the BMW N54 twin turbo are equally hard on oil. Last year I only made it to one school -see my CarSpace page for the photo album- so I'm eager to find out how the MS3 likes the track. Spring can't come soon enough! As it stands now, I'll probably keep it for at least another one or two years.

rascal99 · January 2008

Good info, thanks!! I have an A4 2.0T so I am well aware of the oil issue. I haven't driven the MS3 yet. The only consistent complaints I hear regard the "notchy" shifter and the clutch engagement. I think I read a new Mazda 3 will be arriving this year or early next?

If the BMW execs would get off their high horse and export the 1-series hatchback (reasonably priced) I would be back to the BMW fold in a hurry. My first BMW was a 318ti, and it was a hoot.

roadburner · January 2008

The only consistent complaints I hear regard the "notchy" shifter and the clutch engagement.

In my MS3 the shift action is more than smooth enough; what bothered me about the shifter was that the distance between the 1-2 and 3-4 gates is larger than the distance between the 3-4 and 5-6 gates. Like the clutch, you get used to it.

I think I read a new Mazda 3 will be arriving this year or early next?

I'm thinking the new Mazda 3 will arrive in 2009 as a 2010 model. I don't know when to expect a Mazdaspeed edition.

If the BMW execs would get off their high horse and export the 1-series hatchback (reasonably priced) I would be back to the BMW fold in a hurry.

Me too! I was hoping against hope that BMW NA would relent and import the five door 130i M Sport, but no such luck...

My first BMW was a 318ti, and it was a hoot.

I still have the 1995 318ti Club Sport that I special ordered almost 13 years ago. It's one of probably less than 10 that were built without a sunroof. I doubt that I'll ever sell it. It lat 110K it still looks like new inside and out. Sheer horsepower aside, I still find it as much fun to drive as almost anything new or used- short of a vintage M1 or 911.

pegasuszz · May 2008

I never believed the BMW hype ...
until I drove one.
This was a nearly worn out 87 325 with the sport package and manual. Within 100 yards you could feel that the car "wants" to play. It's weird - I would not have believed it had I not experienced it. It was like a little puppy; the steering, brakes, suspension and even the small engine had an eagerness and responsiveness about them totally unlike a typical car, and also unlike what most people want. I drove that thing for about 30K miles and got to understand what they were about.
I've also driven a couple dozen different almost new rental cars. They were objectively better than the worn-out near antique Bimmer, but except for one they were no fun. After driving the little BMW, the steering on nearly any other sedan feels defective. Bleah. I can't really explain it, but the somehow the 325's steering - even after 18 years - was clearly connected to the road while the other ones are remote control pointers to turn the wheels. Lots of little things worked like that on the 325 - like when you toss it around an entrance ramp, it's balanced right between under and oversteer, and if one end got loose you could pull it right back in. It also gripped like a cat on drapes - I recall starting a tight exit ramp in a Chevy something, at a reasonable speed for the 325 and being rewarded with a slide towards a guard rail at all of 40mph (caught it easily thanks to practice). Most cars just plow forward like mules, and in some the back can snap around with some scary oversteer. BMWs have 50/50 weight balance and work with you, not against you.

BMWs are not all the same. Their core models, what built their reputation many years ago, are designed differently than most cars. The priority for those, tho not all BMWs, is that they're *fun*. Lots of people want to be seen as "fun" rather than the boring drones they actually are. They'll buy a BMW with an automatic, AWD and all season tires, or a BMW SUV, or another one of their models that looks exactly like the the sporty one but with the fun-to-drive part factored out. Pretty stupid, since the car was not designed and isn't a good choice for the most practical transportation. BMW has moved somewhat away from that group of buyers - today's 3 series is larger and laden with electro-gadgets more appropriate to a Cadillac, but nothing else has replaced it.

Status symbol? Huh? If you want that get a boat. A car just means you can't afford staff to drive you. People who say "people by sporty cars for status" really mean "I think about status all the time and have no clue what fun is". If you want a fun car, look at a Mini (made by BMW), a Miata, an S2000 or a small, sport package m/t BMW - or maybe the new turbo Cobalt (yup, a cheesy little econo-car -- but fast). A Lexus, by contrast, is just your grandfather's Buick with more reliability. Yawn. I'll buy one when I need bifocals and arthritis pills.

roadburner · May 2008

Excellent post. As you said, most of the trolls that like to slam BMWs haven't even sat in one- never mind driven one. It's almost always a bad case of envy or sour grapes, pure and simple...

busiris · May 2008

Yes...I also agree.

GM/Pontiac is introducing the Pontiac G8GT, with many making claims it is a BMW at half the costs...of course, that is correct. But, its also half the car.

Like everything else in life, you usually get what you pay for...

silvermzda3 · May 2008

Ive owned 3 BMW's and you nailed it, there is a special feeling and driving character in the BMW, I had a '79 518 (in Germany) an 82 525e and a '88 535iS. And I loved the balance and perfection. even the relatively underpowered 518 was a hoot to drive. They didn't have gadgets and were not luxury liners, heck they didnt have cup holders, but they were fun to drive and the ergonomics were impeccable. They were an extension of the driver. That is why I fell in love with the Mazda 3/ speed 3. They are responsive and make you feel like part of the game of driving. Mind you, it's not a BMW, but at half the price one can not expect a head to head comparison. In my experience there is less maintenance with the Mazda. I hate to call it reliability, because basically performance cars take more care to maintain.

creakid1 · July 2008

http://recp.rm05.net/ctt?kn=28&m=1136043&r=Nzc1MjMyMjY3OQS2&b=0&j=MTE1MDE0ODU5S0- &mt=1

Personally, I'm proud of finishing up another project from my 4-car collection -- castrating the sport-suspension springs/shocks off my E36 '99 328is & replaced w/ the longer std springs plus adding torsen limited slip differential & the quick-ratio steering rack from the Z3. Now that's what I call reckless fun in the real world of bumpy roads. :P

roadburner · November 2008

As some of you know, I passed on a couple of really nice E46 BMWs(a 330i ZHP and an almost-new M3) in order to try something "different"- i.e. a new 2007 MS3. Well, the sled hasn't reached 27000 miles yet and I've already had to replace a blown LF strut as well as the turbocharger. If the parts had failed outside of the warranty period I'd be looking at @$2500 worth of repair costs. And for the record, I've never had to replace a strut before 100000 miles on any of the nine BMWs I've owned.
So much for the supposedly knowledgeable claims concerning Mazda's stellar reliability and inexpensive operating costs that were made by some "experts" earlier in this topic... :surprise:
So much for my thinking that the MS3 would make a durable and entertaining track toy... :mad:
As for driving pleasure, I'm finding my 1995 318ti Club Sport to be a much more involving drive. Ditto for the 1975 2002 I just picked up on eBay. Most of the time the MS3 only sees duty as my work beater. Having said all that, my dealer(Kings Mazda, Cincinnati) has provided excellent service before and after the sale. Too bad the car itself didn't measure up.

txg60 · December 2008

Man..sorry you are having so many problems with your MS3..I just recently hit the 35K mile mark which includes some track sessions and tons of mountain roads..no issues thus far....

roadburner · December 2008

I really liked the car when I first bought it, but the problems have sapped my enthusiasm quite a bit. I haven't decided what to do with the sled yet, but I'm not all that confident using it as my track car for the next few years.

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Mazdaspeed 3 or Mini Cooper S

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