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Will the Chevy Volt Succeed?

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  • Just an assumption.

    Would you be interested if say Infiniti would make an EV version Nissan Rogue with 140 miles range and only costs $42,000?

    Put it in another way, how about a Lexus version of a RAV4 but EV with same 140 miles range for $42,000?
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I'd be interested but that interest would be limited by the fact that I'd still need to own or rent another vehicle on occasion.

    Let me ask you this. If you took this hypothetical Nissan Rogue EV with 140 mile range and added an ICE range extender to it would that make it a less appealing vehicle in your mind? If your answer is yes then basically you are saying that anyone making a trip over 140 miles needs to be using a strictly ICE powered vehicle.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    I don't think any vehicle that does not provide a means of remote refuelling stands much of a chance of widespread acceptance, especially if there are range extended EV's available.

    People don't like to chance being stranded, especially when the solution is a tow truck rather than simply fetching a gas can.
  • Here's a somewhat comprehensive survey / study about EV , especifically RAVEV

    http://www.eaaev.org/Info/RAV4-EV_User_Experiences.pdf

    This guy got an EVRAV4 and then gave up his pick up truck and Mercedes to get a second EVRAV4 (used and more expensive purchase), his third car is a prius that seldom sees the road.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2006/09/24/MTGQ3L- B2SU1.DTL
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    Regarding your second link.

    Why does this person own a Prius, actually 2 Priuses? If his RAV4 EV had a range extender would he still have a need to own a Prius? Also he describes taking 6 hour breaks on long trips in his RAV4 so that the batteries can re-charge. If you think this is a practice that the typical motorist will embrace then you are more than a little out of touch. BTW, a 27 kWh depleted battery pack, like in the RAV4 EV, will not recharge in 6 hours off a typical 110/120 volt outlet.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    Agreed... few would put up with those inconveniences.
    Rich greenies are buying 'em up... well, that's what it is, a rich greenie's toy.
  • I know you always find ways to contradict. What about the first link?

    http://www.eaaev.org/Info/RAV4-EV_User_Experiences.pdf
  • Do you think the mindset of people who sought out and bought EV's back in the early 2000's is representative of the greater population?
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "Do you think the mindset of people who sought out and bought EV's back in the early 2000's is representative of the greater population?"

    The answer to that question is the same as the answer to this one:

    Do half of the people you know have solar panels on their roof?
  • tpe said: "....the mpg of the Volt will be once the ICE generator has kicked in. GM is stating this will be around 50 mpg."

    Since the ICE/generator/motor path is around 80% efficient, I don't see how this 50 MPG is achievable in a 3300 lb Volt at battery depletion. (Normal transmissions are around 95% efficient or higher.)

    The 50 MPG might be possible if the ICE:
    1. ICE shuts off below 20 mph (with time hysteretic logic added).
    2. Battery helps feed the motor during acceleration or up hills.
    3. ICE delivers some small amount of charge to the batteries, along with regenerative braking.

    Without all the above, you might be able to get 30 MPG or so, not anywhere near 50 MPG as GM has so far stated.

    This would seem to contradict some of the latest statements saying that the ICE doesn't recharge the batteries, although that probably only means the ICE won't bring the batteries to a full charge, providing sustaining charge only to keep the batteries at 30%.
  • Well, you can get a Volt or some other similar car for your $37k or this thingie...you decide:

    image

    "what’s really interesting about the iMiev right now is that Mitsubishi has just released a price figure of what $37,496 US, which is about $2,500less than we often hear talked about as the price point for the Chevy Volt.

    Despite the similarities in pricing and release date, the two cars are very different beasts. The iMiev is based on a current Kei-car produced by Mitsubishi for Japan, and has a 47kW electric motor powered by a 330-volt lithium ion battery pack. The car will have a top speed of 80 mph and an all electric range of about 100 miles. Charging will take place via a normal power outlet and should take about 14 hours to completely charge the battery, though there is all a 220V charge option, which only takes 7 hours."


    I am not sure why the obsession against the range extender.

    My current car gets 25 mpg on the road. I drive from portland to seattle about once a month. Almost all my other daily driving is under 40 miles. So...

    I can spend my $40k on a battery only EV and keep my old car for seattle trips...sorry, I am not going to double or triple my drive time to get to seattle waiting for a recharge.

    So 400 miles r/t @ 25 mpg (generous) I would use 16 gallons of gas.

    With a Volt I get 50 mpg minus the 80 plug in so I use ~5 gallons.

    I would actually use more gas per month with the full EV. And yes I could buy another higher mileage car, but that is another ICE on the road, no? And what about all the oil and etc in the manufacture and shipping and support of said vehicle...not to mention the cost.

    Another thing good about the Volt et al (just read dodge is in the same game) is that it is speeding battery research and maybe more importantly, scale manufacturing of the batteries so we can see if price will be such that BEVs can gain advantage.
  • "With a Volt I get 50 mpg minus the 80 plug in so I use ~5 gallons"

    Ooops too late to edit...noticed the gas used would be close to 7 gallons.
  • http://www.eaaev.org/Info/RAV4-EV_User_Experiences.pdf

    "Do you think the mindset of people who sought out and bought EV's back in the early 2000's is representative of the greater population?"

    The survey was conducted in 2006, not too long ago.
  • Read my sentence again..but regardless...it is a survey of the choir, not everyday folks.

    I can change early 2000's to 2003 if that is better..but I think it can be assumed that they started looking into it in 2002.
  • "Well, you can get a Volt or some other similar car for your $37k or this thingie...you decide: ..picture of iMiev....."

    Is the iMiev sized for smaller (on average) Japanese people? Looks small in there. Remember the old Datsun B210? The only friends of mine that could fit in that Japanese-market sized vehicle were my short friends. Usually they have to add a little room inside for it to make it in U.S./Canadian/European markets.

    The Volt will be sized to fit up to a 99% percentile American and enough width to prevent it from being a roly-poly hazard. I.E, a real car.
  • First, it looks like maybe the article was way off on price. It is supposedly going to / or is selling in Japan for ~$24K.

    It is pretty small..133" end to end..compare that to the 3 door Yaris which is 150 inches.

    The 100 mile range is for ideal conditions... no AC or heater. One tester found about 60 to be safe running the heater.

    Might be an ok commuter/in city/second car for some folks. Personally, anything below a Yaris size is out of the question for me.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/21/new-york-2008-autobloggreen-drives-the-m- itsubishi-i-miev-w-vid/

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=124867/pageNumber=1
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    Well, GM is saying 50mpg... we can try to analyze it, but we don't really know how it works, so any analysis is pure speculation.

    As for these EV, add the cost of a 2nd car. That's why they don't fly with the general public.
  • "Well, GM is saying 50mpg... we can try to analyze it, but we don't really know how it works, so any analysis is pure speculation. "

    You can bet an 80% efficient transmission on the Volt (generator-to-motor path) will not get as good gas mileage as a current Corolla with an automatic transmission (31 MPG combined city/hiway) unless the battery is used in burst mode to fill in transient torque demands on the engine. The only details left are what logic thresholds GM will choose and how high they can get the MPG to.

    Many of us were predicting that the Volt's engine would not recharge the batteries to full after battery depletion because it is a ridiculously low 50% efficient to do so. When GM announced it recently some of us were not surprised.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    Frankly, the people who were predicting full recharge were foolish, since the goal has clearly been to use grid power as much as possible.

    And they've already said 50mpg, so the battery must be assisting during peak loads and recieving a small charge from the engine and braking to maintain a minimum charge state.

    I also expect the Volt's engine to run in far more efficient rpm ranges than a Corolla or any other conventional car including the Prius.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I'm not sure why you would use the Corolla as an example. Why not the Prius?

    GM has stated many times they expect the Volt to get 50 mpg after the battery has been depleted. I've got to believe their engineers know a few things about transmission efficiency. While 50 mpg may end up being a little optimistic, especially with the new EPA ratings, it's hard to imagine that GM could be as far off as you are suggesting. Again, it's speculation on both our parts but if there was a way to bet on whether this car will get over 30 mpg with the ICE I'd definitely take that bet.
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