I still say the Baja will sell fairly well. It might not hit 2,000/month, but it will be reasonably successful. Put that in with the towing pool. :-)
I'm going to drop a note to my dealer on some Baja opinions before he goes to the Subaru Dealer meeting later this month. In the past, SOA has made changes based on dealer input. The Outback Sedan was originally built as an experiment for Subaru of New England. They sold every single one that was built.
The new style Impreza (with the WRX) was a big hit. I am still hoping that the Forrester will be a big hit as well. I am amazed at how few things leak out of Subaru compared to the other auto companies. I think this is good, Subaru can't afford to give its competition extra time to figure out how to counteract its new products. I also agree with Ken, there has been alot of new things from Subaru and they are clearly still moving up.
After peeking around the car show debuts, one car really stands out for the wife: the G35.
One rumor has it's price starting at $27k, if so all I have to say is HOLY COW! The I35 equipment levels suggest that it might have leather and moonroof standard. If so, I'd add a few choice options (seat heaters, HIDs, CD changer) and still be able to get it for under $30k.
I dunno, though. Loaded Altimas hit $29k, so that might not be right. I was expecting closer to $35k for the G35.
Remember, that thing is Skyline based, 4 wheel indy, roomy and sporty. 255hp or more, 6 speed manual, RWD.
To Subaru product planning: we want surprises like that. A truly fast sporty sedan for $8k less than expected.
I'll still wait to see the 2003 Forester, because I want the cargo space and it passes my wife's "no van, no wagon" test. But it'll be tough.
can be attributed to being "kept hostage in a dark dungeon"! Oh no, I think they are coming for me again.....must....share.....Forester.........informa........
If the Baja drives like the Outback, and I bet it does, then it will be fine with the H4. I never thought my H4 Outback (5-spd) was lacking for power (not a hot rod, but it was more than adequate). I was not as pleased with the H4/auto combination, but many other people are perfectly happy with it. An H6 would be a nice option, but I don't see how it will make or break the vehicle. The Outback was a huge success way before the H6 came along, and I don't recall hearing many complaints about the H4 when that was the only choice.
This vehicle will appeal to the same general crowd that would appreciate the Outback, but wants something more radical with a different type of versatility. After seeing the Baja and thinking about it, my personal preference stays with a station wagon form factor. But, the open cargo bed might fit other lifestyles better. I can see how this vehicle would attract buyers that would not otherwise shop for Subarus (since all other Subes are wagons or sedans).
I really think we should consider the Baja as a new model in the Legacy/Outback line. You know -- sedan, wagon, and now Baja. That distinction will keep us from wrongly comparing it to trucks, it would put the towing capacity in proper perspective, and it would explain the H4. If you have a gripe with the Baja (other than styling), I bet the same gripe applies to the Outback wagon. Since many of us drive Outback wagons, I'd like to see how that plays out!!
However, it doesn't seem to bode well for lesser Outbacks (or Legacys) getting the H-6 IMO. And, as you know, this is something we have all been hoping for too.
Now that the Baja has debuted without the H-6, I'm betting we won't see more H-6s in more Outbacks (and Legacys) until it get completely revamped for MY05.
my comments on the powerplant are because with the Baja, Subaru is moving from their tried & true AWD sedans and wagons into a well-populated compact truck market. few compact trucks have features like the Baja, true, but most of them look far better and have optional powertrains with a lot more grunt.
I can see this truck winning a few people that wouldn't buy a wagon, but honestly those folks probably have been buying foresters. Again, I have doubts about this truck bringing new buyers to the brand instead of taking sales from other Subaru models.
Remember, Craig, the Baja will take on different duties, much more hauling than the Outback does. Torque is the key here, not horsepower.
If they were thinking as you are, they should have called it the "Outback Baja", IMO.
To further Colin's point, look what Nissan did to keep the Crew Cab competitive - a supercharger and a longer bed. People wanted cargo space and torque, so they gave it to them.
Subaru doesn't seem to be asking the same people what they want.
Bob: this amazed me, but the G35 has a whopping 112" wheelbase! And it's shorter than the Legacy, I think.
No manual trans the first year, so gotta wait on that one. Packaging is lame, leather and moonroof cost $30 grand, but if you want the sport package you have to buy a goofy aero package that pushes the price way up.
Also, the lights are ugly, front and rear, so we'd have to see how the wife likes it. VDC is standard, though, even on the $27,100 base model (with cloth). The trunk lid is hinged, so no goosenecks, but a full size spare is an $180 option.
But getting just leather and moonroof makes for an interesting price point, and a manual tranny might cost a grand less.
I think I might have gotten a Baja instead of the Outback, if it was available at that time. Remember, I was driving a truck prior to the Outback. It would have given us the room for Brooke while giving me what I perceive as a truck, albeit w/o the towing capacity that I rarely used (after selling the boat).
Having said that, I have no regrets getting our Outback. We really like our Outback. It's more practical for us and I probably don't fit the surfer image that the Baja is attempting to draw.
I'm also pretty sure that whenever we decide to replace our Saturn, that it'll be a sedan of some sort, most likely sporty (b l i t z e n ?), but still allowing us to cart Brooke around. Will we do that this year? Not sure, but I'll be looking around at the Chicago Auto show.
weather-proof space for a stroller & toys, and a couple of kids (maybe next year for us). oh, something sporty would be nice too!
I never did like driving a truck with a cap on it, however. In fact, I prefer the look of trucks w/o caps. That's a truck to me.
our 50-ish neighbor just got a new Ram. I gotta admit, I kind of like the looks of it. However, we'd never get one (no need, gas mileage, would take up the entire garage...)
those roof lights are a Subaru option. I also noticed they mentioned a tonneau cover (soft or hard?), a bed net (to secure items), and both a horizontal and vertical interior nets (to secure stuff??) as options.
I like the idea of being able to put two bikes in the INSIDE of the Outback. The roof rack is an "emergency" carrier. And, from the pictures we've seen, I think tthe Baja is less than attractive in current form. Besides, I do like the H6 power. I waited for the H6 rather than buy a LTD.
Talked with the local dealership this morning (took wife's Impreza in for an oil change) and was told Subaru thinks it can do a "big" job with the Baja in this local. Hope they're right.
Meanwhile, I'll hold final verdict until I see the Baja in the flesh.
They've got bikes in the bed, and I would think with the bed, if you wanted to put them on the roof, it would be pretty easy. Just climb in the bed and then mount the bikes on the roof rack.
I did visit the web site and agree it wouldn't be too difficult to lift bikes from bed to rack. I can "rack" my bike by stepping on the door sill and placing the fork into the holder. Really isn't too much of a chore and the bike is certainly light enough to lift. Most of the time (95%) I carry the bike in the rear of the wagon with front wheel attached. No problem at all and no worry about stone damage, theft, etc.
Weather proof space is crucial for familes. I'm not sure a soft tonneau would be enough, but a hard one might. But the Baja tries to appeal to 18-30 year-olds with no kids (yet), IMO.
My bikes are so filhty anyway, no way I'd want them inside my vehicle. But I understand those with expensive bikes want them inside.
What would be cool (bear with my "concept" idea) is a magic folding hard tonneau that folded out of the way somehow, to the sides or whatever, leaving an open bed in the process. Think magic folding 3rd seat, I'm being practical here, so you don't have to store the cover.
To take the "concept" further, what if the tonneau popped off and had built-in legs to make a table for tailgate parties?
Actually, now that I think about it, the bed itself offers a platform for tail gate parties. What about shelter for rain, or shade? Just stretching out my imagination, feel free to help out!
Question: where is the spare tire stored? I wonder if there is a beer cooler inside a la Forester.
I know you guys wanted the Sticthback, but give them credit for the pass through they did provide. I bet you could slide a 4'x8' sheet of plywood into that, then lean it on the bed extender.
Where can you see the actual pass-through? I've only read about it. Didn't notice anything in the photo gallery.
If it's the whole width of the seats, it's gotta be 48" wide. If the back of the plywood rested on the bed extender, it might clear the wheel arches, but just maybe.
Colin: I'm just try to be creative. I don't think Subaru did enough of that. The Baja lacks imagination. It's an Outback Crew Cab. Nothing more.
Granted it is not perfect but I like it. Rememeber "227 hp is not enough for WRX", "no sunroof in WRX" etc. 8000 more WRX's sold in 2001 than planned. Can't say that will happen with Baja but I hope so. So here we go: 1. Styling: The STX was totally over the top so what were we expecting here? This is a Subaru. I think it has been toned down just right. I did not like the 6 fog lights so we are back to the front end of an OB. I do want it to have some more flare than an OB though. If you don't like the two tone then buy silver. I think that this is what Subaru is counting on. If the two tone is a flop compared to the silver they can change next year. I do like the shape of the car--rakish windshield etc.
2. Midgate: yes the full system would have been nice but extra power window etc. would have been more costly and maybe this system was more reliable and more waterproof. Besides, you can still get landscape timbers or plywood sheets into it.
3. Engine, H 6 would be nice and I am sure it will be an option one day. But this is a car and I don't think the many ton towing people look at Subaru in the first place. Having had the 165 hp H4 in a Forester I never was short of power and I am sure it will still be a blast to drive.
4. Dual range: this is the one that is the one disapointment to me. I had trouble with jeep roads in Colorado due to lack of DR in my Forester. But of course like other Subies, bad approach/departure angles spoil offroading anyway.
5. Who will buy it? People who hate pickups. (I have never owned one myself). If I had not bought the WRX last summer I would consider it. I don't want a pickup as a daily driver. I don't care how much leather and stereo a conventional truck has, it is still a truck. I am really happy to see the Outback back doors on the Baja. Comfort for 4. For me it would have luxury, comfort, and sporty driving and allow me some extra flexibility carrying things. All I need to carry is a load of mulch in the spring, some landscape timbers sometimes or limbs to the landfill. It is a car. Rememeber the posts recently about mac owners bucking trends? A pickup that isn't a pickup will have a market among a "think different" crowd. (Now if it only came in Bondi Blue). Was the BRAT a useful "pickup"? The "cool" factor alone may sell it. We haven't had an El Camino or Ranchero in years. Coolness plus reliability.
6. It will help employment in my home state (heh, heh).
Click on the "Baja" link, then click on the bottom photo. It may(?) take a while to load, because it's pretty big. It's an excellent shot of the pass-through.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need some bigger vehicles in their fleet. I can count 3 people in my own family who despite loving their legacy or outback will not be buying another subaru because they have outgrown them, and need a physically larger vehicle. They would want nothing more than to buy a subaru, but there is no subaru that suits their needs which is a full-size vehicle or wagon... Subaru should be looking at having alternatives to for people to move to a larger vehicle when the time comes. It's a lot harder to win new customers than to cater to current ones who will re-buy.
OK, forget the plywood. That is a pretty narrow pass-through. Not quite the mid-gate we were hoping for. Looks maybe 24" wide, not 48".
I don't think it had to open like the Avalanche, since the interior would get all dusty. But a wider opening, say the bottom half, would have been much more useful.
As for the WRX launch, it was more like "WOW" and then, "what can we nit-pick about". Then the moonroof came into play. The Euro Impreze turbo got just 215hp, so I don't recall people complaining about get 12 more.
Another thing, 165hp was fine 5 years ago. The Outback first got that power rating way, way back in 1996, remember?
Fast forward to today. The base Altima has 175hp. The Mazda 6 is getting 170hp. The Camry has 157hp, but it's not burdened by the extra drag of AWD. So 165hp + AWD is below par for a vehicle that isn't going to be light.
Like Bob said, even 170hp with VVT would have been good. Or forced induction. Or an H6, even optionally.
I hate to admit it, given my love for light, small, nimble cars, but you're both right. They need a platform with a wheelbase at least half a foot longer. Maybe two inches wider, too.
Despite my adoration for Subies, I cannot put my wife into a Subaru sedan she finds roomy enough for us. At any price.
may not be right for you, but as piasan says, there are others who do wish for a larger platform to be available. If they offered (in addition to the current models) a sedan the size of the Altima, that would satisfy the piasanos out there.
For me and me alone, I'd buy a WRX and be done with it. Wagon just to remain practical.
But we're not shopping for me, we're shopping for her. She wants space for 2 kids, a nanny, a small dog, the two of us, and all our gear. And she does not pack light.
I may need to borrow that 5'x8' trailer if we get a sedan, Bob! LOL!
Not sure that I am wild about the looks of the Baja. However, few non-owners would describe the Outback as pretty. Quite a few have sold though and the look grows on you.
I suspect the target market may be a little younger than most Outback owners. I cannot see that the load bed would be functionally useful for actual hauling but a cooleague (sort of like a colleague, but thinks himself cool) has the perfect use. He dives every day after work and regularly chews out the boot (trunk to you) floor of his cars with the salt water on his dive gear and tanks. He loves a flash car with all the trimmings but can't make it work effectively given his sport.
Can someone explain the technicalities of the rear window switchback or whatever it is called. We don't see these sort of things here in OZ, that I can recall.
Follow Bob's link above, the last photo shows the pass-through clearly. But it's just a small hole, like the pass through in some sedans.
The Chevy Avalanche has a true mid-gate, a sort of tail gate in the middle of the bed and passenger space (hence the name). It opens wide, completely, and accomodates 48" wide sheets of plywood.
This was a while back, though. We looked at a Durango several years ago, it was such a gas hog (something like 5mpg city, 6 highway) that it scared us off. The seats were hard, and visibility was poor, plus it was $30 grand with ABS and that was with the old engine.
Any how, so she wanders over and sees a conversion van and says, "let's get this one". And yes, it was a circa 1960 design Dodge. But the seats were comfy, the mileage was better than the Durango, and the price was $12 grand lower.
I would never allow it, but it was kind of funny to see how much she liked having comfortable captain's chairs and all that space.
About H6 availability across the entire Legacy line -- I think Subaru is limiting the H6 to the high-end models in the interest of making more money. They must be making more money off Bean and VDC sales than they would if the H6 were deployed across the line (if there were even enough supply, which is another issue). For instance, if they didn't differentiate between the Bean and the Limited with something other than two-tone leather, wood steering wheel, and auto HVAC, who would buy the Bean? What else besides the H6 commands the price premium on the Bean?
Definitely looks like limiting the H6 to the high-end models is Subaru's way of making fatter profits. With only two engines (H4-2.5 and H6-3.0) suitable for the Outback in the US, there's not a whole lot else they can do to create trim levels. Even Honda limits it's V6 to the higher trim levels in the Accord, and they have lots of engines!
I said it before and I'll say it again: the Baja should not be compared to trucks, even compact pickup trucks. It is a unibody car, plain and simple, which explains the low tow rating and the engine spec. If somebody needs towing/hauling capability or serious off-roading, they should look elsewhere. I think it's wrong to criticize the Baja on these points, because it's not really made for truckish things any more than more than the Outback or Forester is. Just because it has an open bed and a tailgate doesn't mean you can load it with gravel!! You do realize that, right?
If Subaru markets the Baja against trucks, it will be a big mistake. But I have not seen a hint of that -- they are marketing it as a new type of crossover vehicle. Since it's a crossover vehicle that clearly sprang off a car platform, we should not expect it to do truck things or go up against truck competitors.
I agree that more power and a bigger engine would be nice, but it still would not make the Baja a truck competitor, nor would it improve the towing/hauling capacity or off-road capability (which are limited by it's unibody car origins and design more than the engine). Even though my Bean has an H6, I don't think it's any more caable for towing and hauling than my old H4 Outback other than the fact that it might be a little peppier off the line. Besides the engine, everything else is pretty much identical. Having the H6 doesn't change the basic configuration of the vehicle significantly, and it doesn't make the vehicle a whole lot more capable for carrying/towing large loads. To me, the towing/hauling limits on the entire Legacy lineup are imposed by the chassis/platform and overall design way more than the engine.
If towing and hauling are important, shoppers should move in the direction of the Frontier or Explorer All-Trac. These crossover vehicles have truck origins and are more suited to truck duties.
Regarding size, quite a few manufacturers top out with midsize vehicles in all their lines. Note: to me, full size means Intrepid/Crown-Vic/Avalon proportions in a car and F-150/Ram/Tundra proportions in a truck. Midsize means Accord/Legacy/Passat in a car and in a truck means most minivans and SUVs like the Trooper and MDX (upcoming Pilot too). But really, ever see a full size Honda or Nissan? How about a full size VW? All of these companies, and Subaru, can be very profitable without filling every size category.
I do agree that Subaru could use more vehicles in its lineup, and this is where a midsize minivan or SUV would accomodate people that want more space (notice, these are new vehicle categories as opposed to larger vehicles within the same categories). But, Subaru got into trouble when they tried to be all things to all people some years ago, so it's probably wise that they stick to their bread and butter lines of vehicles. In that respect, the baja is a variation of a known theme.
has got to be your WORST nightmare—juice driving a conversion van!
If that happens, the "Crew" will be forced to remove you as a Crew Chief, and you will be forced to stay in that same dungeon, deep within the bowels of SOA, that Pattie's been living in this past month!
Remember, the high-end H6s required a $750 dealer incentive to sell, and that's during first year! From an industry stand point, that's a little embarassing.
You do bring up a good point, though. Subaru probably cannot, and maybe should not, try to compete with the real pickups. But then what is their niche? Less of everything for the same money? C'mon, they have to offer something, and that could be sporty handling. What about being the only "sports-cab"?
Hey, this is the wife's car, not mine. I wouldn't let her take Sandy, anyway, unless I got a Rex.
If you drove a conversion van, Juice, the entire Subaru Crew would be disgraced. We'd probably drive around in circles and crash into things for weeks on end. When Obi-Wan goes over to the dark side, the game is over!
Comments
I'm going to drop a note to my dealer on some Baja opinions before he goes to the Subaru Dealer meeting later this month. In the past, SOA has made changes based on dealer input.
The Outback Sedan was originally built as an experiment for Subaru of New England. They sold every single one that was built.
-Dennis
Frank
One rumor has it's price starting at $27k, if so all I have to say is HOLY COW! The I35 equipment levels suggest that it might have leather and moonroof standard. If so, I'd add a few choice options (seat heaters, HIDs, CD changer) and still be able to get it for under $30k.
I dunno, though. Loaded Altimas hit $29k, so that might not be right. I was expecting closer to $35k for the G35.
Remember, that thing is Skyline based, 4 wheel indy, roomy and sporty. 255hp or more, 6 speed manual, RWD.
To Subaru product planning: we want surprises like that. A truly fast sporty sedan for $8k less than expected.
I'll still wait to see the 2003 Forester, because I want the cargo space and it passes my wife's "no van, no wagon" test. But it'll be tough.
-juice
(loved it Bob!!! ;~}
Patti
Oh, man, I was just going to ask her about the wheelbase length and the rear suspension!
-juice
Bob
-juice
This vehicle will appeal to the same general crowd that would appreciate the Outback, but wants something more radical with a different type of versatility. After seeing the Baja and thinking about it, my personal preference stays with a station wagon form factor. But, the open cargo bed might fit other lifestyles better. I can see how this vehicle would attract buyers that would not otherwise shop for Subarus (since all other Subes are wagons or sedans).
I really think we should consider the Baja as a new model in the Legacy/Outback line. You know -- sedan, wagon, and now Baja. That distinction will keep us from wrongly comparing it to trucks, it would put the towing capacity in proper perspective, and it would explain the H4. If you have a gripe with the Baja (other than styling), I bet the same gripe applies to the Outback wagon. Since many of us drive Outback wagons, I'd like to see how that plays out!!
Craig
Now that the Baja has debuted without the H-6, I'm betting we won't see more H-6s in more Outbacks (and Legacys) until it get completely revamped for MY05.
Bob
my comments on the powerplant are because with the Baja, Subaru is moving from their tried & true AWD sedans and wagons into a well-populated compact truck market. few compact trucks have features like the Baja, true, but most of them look far better and have optional powertrains with a lot more grunt.
I can see this truck winning a few people that wouldn't buy a wagon, but honestly those folks probably have been buying foresters. Again, I have doubts about this truck bringing new buyers to the brand instead of taking sales from other Subaru models.
-Colin
If they were thinking as you are, they should have called it the "Outback Baja", IMO.
To further Colin's point, look what Nissan did to keep the Crew Cab competitive - a supercharger and a longer bed. People wanted cargo space and torque, so they gave it to them.
Subaru doesn't seem to be asking the same people what they want.
-juice
No manual trans the first year, so gotta wait on that one. Packaging is lame, leather and moonroof cost $30 grand, but if you want the sport package you have to buy a goofy aero package that pushes the price way up.
Also, the lights are ugly, front and rear, so we'd have to see how the wife likes it. VDC is standard, though, even on the $27,100 base model (with cloth). The trunk lid is hinged, so no goosenecks, but a full size spare is an $180 option.
But getting just leather and moonroof makes for an interesting price point, and a manual tranny might cost a grand less.
-juice
Bob
Having said that, I have no regrets getting our Outback. We really like our Outback. It's more practical for us and I probably don't fit the surfer image that the Baja is attempting to draw.
I'm also pretty sure that whenever we decide to replace our Saturn, that it'll be a sedan of some sort, most likely sporty (b l i t z e n ?), but still allowing us to cart Brooke around. Will we do that this year? Not sure, but I'll be looking around at the Chicago Auto show.
-Brian
Brian: our needs are similar. We also need weather-proof space for a stroller.
I think that the Baja isn't really trying to attract buyers like us - we are better served by the Forester and Legacy wagons.
-juice
I never did like driving a truck with a cap on it, however. In fact, I prefer the look of trucks w/o caps. That's a truck to me.
our 50-ish neighbor just got a new Ram. I gotta admit, I kind of like the looks of it. However, we'd never get one (no need, gas mileage, would take up the entire garage...)
-Brian
Bob
Bob
"emergency" carrier. And, from the pictures we've seen, I think tthe Baja is less than attractive in current form. Besides, I do like the H6 power. I waited for the H6 rather than buy a LTD.
Talked with the local dealership this morning (took wife's Impreza in for an oil change) and was told Subaru thinks it can do a "big" job with the Baja in this local. Hope they're right.
Meanwhile, I'll hold final verdict until I see the Baja in the flesh.
Don
They've got bikes in the bed, and I would think with the bed, if you wanted to put them on the roof, it would be pretty easy. Just climb in the bed and then mount the bikes on the roof rack.
Bob
Don
My bikes are so filhty anyway, no way I'd want them inside my vehicle. But I understand those with expensive bikes want them inside.
What would be cool (bear with my "concept" idea) is a magic folding hard tonneau that folded out of the way somehow, to the sides or whatever, leaving an open bed in the process. Think magic folding 3rd seat, I'm being practical here, so you don't have to store the cover.
To take the "concept" further, what if the tonneau popped off and had built-in legs to make a table for tailgate parties?
Or what if it tilted up to make a huge wail tail?
I was kidding on that last one. ;-)
YellowBajaDon?
-juice
Bob
Actually, now that I think about it, the bed itself offers a platform for tail gate parties. What about shelter for rain, or shade? Just stretching out my imagination, feel free to help out!
Question: where is the spare tire stored? I wonder if there is a beer cooler inside a la Forester.
I know you guys wanted the Sticthback, but give them credit for the pass through they did provide. I bet you could slide a 4'x8' sheet of plywood into that, then lean it on the bed extender.
-juice
-Colin
Bob
If it's the whole width of the seats, it's gotta be 48" wide. If the back of the plywood rested on the bed extender, it might clear the wheel arches, but just maybe.
Colin: I'm just try to be creative. I don't think Subaru did enough of that. The Baja lacks imagination. It's an Outback Crew Cab. Nothing more.
-juice
1. Styling: The STX was totally over the top so what were we expecting here? This is a Subaru. I think it has been toned down just right. I did not like the 6 fog lights so we are back to the front end of an OB. I do want it to have some more flare than an OB though. If you don't like the two tone then buy silver. I think that this is what Subaru is counting on. If the two tone is a flop compared to the silver they can change next year. I do like the shape of the car--rakish windshield etc.
2. Midgate: yes the full system would have been nice but extra power window etc. would have been more costly and maybe this system was more reliable and more waterproof. Besides, you can still get landscape timbers or plywood sheets into it.
3. Engine, H 6 would be nice and I am sure it will be an option one day. But this is a car and I don't think the many ton towing people look at Subaru in the first place. Having had the 165 hp H4 in a Forester I never was short of power and I am sure it will still be a blast to drive.
4. Dual range: this is the one that is the one disapointment to me. I had trouble with jeep roads in Colorado due to lack of DR in my Forester. But of course like other Subies, bad approach/departure angles spoil offroading anyway.
5. Who will buy it? People who hate pickups. (I have never owned one myself). If I had not bought the WRX last summer I would consider it. I don't want a pickup as a daily driver. I don't care how much leather and stereo a conventional truck has, it is still a truck. I am really happy to see the Outback back doors on the Baja. Comfort for 4. For me it would have luxury, comfort, and sporty driving and allow me some extra flexibility carrying things. All I need to carry is a load of mulch in the spring, some landscape timbers sometimes or limbs to the landfill. It is a car. Rememeber the posts recently about mac owners bucking trends? A pickup that isn't a pickup will have a market among a "think different" crowd. (Now if it only came in Bondi Blue). Was the BRAT a useful "pickup"? The "cool" factor alone may sell it. We haven't had an El Camino or Ranchero in years. Coolness plus reliability.
6. It will help employment in my home state (heh, heh).
Your native Hoosier:
TWRX
--Bart
Click on the "Baja" link, then click on the bottom photo. It may(?) take a while to load, because it's pretty big. It's an excellent shot of the pass-through.
Bob
-mike
Bob
I don't think it had to open like the Avalanche, since the interior would get all dusty. But a wider opening, say the bottom half, would have been much more useful.
As for the WRX launch, it was more like "WOW" and then, "what can we nit-pick about". Then the moonroof came into play. The Euro Impreze turbo got just 215hp, so I don't recall people complaining about get 12 more.
Another thing, 165hp was fine 5 years ago. The Outback first got that power rating way, way back in 1996, remember?
Fast forward to today. The base Altima has 175hp. The Mazda 6 is getting 170hp. The Camry has 157hp, but it's not burdened by the extra drag of AWD. So 165hp + AWD is below par for a vehicle that isn't going to be light.
Like Bob said, even 170hp with VVT would have been good. Or forced induction. Or an H6, even optionally.
-juice
Despite my adoration for Subies, I cannot put my wife into a Subaru sedan she finds roomy enough for us. At any price.
-juice
Bob
But we're not shopping for me, we're shopping for her. She wants space for 2 kids, a nanny, a small dog, the two of us, and all our gear. And she does not pack light.
I may need to borrow that 5'x8' trailer if we get a sedan, Bob! LOL!
-juice
Not sure that I am wild about the looks of the Baja. However, few non-owners would describe the Outback as pretty. Quite a few have sold though and the look grows on you.
I suspect the target market may be a little younger than most Outback owners. I cannot see that the load bed would be functionally useful for actual hauling but a cooleague (sort of like a colleague, but thinks himself cool) has the perfect use. He dives every day after work and regularly chews out the boot (trunk to you) floor of his cars with the salt water on his dive gear and tanks. He loves a flash car with all the trimmings but can't make it work effectively given his sport.
Can someone explain the technicalities of the rear window switchback or whatever it is called. We don't see these sort of things here in OZ, that I can recall.
Cheers
Graham
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/48572/article.html
--Bart
The Chevy Avalanche has a true mid-gate, a sort of tail gate in the middle of the bed and passenger space (hence the name). It opens wide, completely, and accomodates 48" wide sheets of plywood.
-juice
I think she just wants to nap in the back, and watch videos with the kids, while I drive. I don't want to be stuck driving a land yacht.
Oh, and that would mean she drives the Forester daily, I keep the Miata, and the van is for trips.
No way would I agree to that.
-juice
Bob
I'm moving to Oz... Graham, think they'll take me?
Bob
This was a while back, though. We looked at a Durango several years ago, it was such a gas hog (something like 5mpg city, 6 highway) that it scared us off. The seats were hard, and visibility was poor, plus it was $30 grand with ABS and that was with the old engine.
Any how, so she wanders over and sees a conversion van and says, "let's get this one". And yes, it was a circa 1960 design Dodge. But the seats were comfy, the mileage was better than the Durango, and the price was $12 grand lower.
I would never allow it, but it was kind of funny to see how much she liked having comfortable captain's chairs and all that space.
-juice
Definitely looks like limiting the H6 to the high-end models is Subaru's way of making fatter profits. With only two engines (H4-2.5 and H6-3.0) suitable for the Outback in the US, there's not a whole lot else they can do to create trim levels. Even Honda limits it's V6 to the higher trim levels in the Accord, and they have lots of engines!
I said it before and I'll say it again: the Baja should not be compared to trucks, even compact pickup trucks. It is a unibody car, plain and simple, which explains the low tow rating and the engine spec. If somebody needs towing/hauling capability or serious off-roading, they should look elsewhere. I think it's wrong to criticize the Baja on these points, because it's not really made for truckish things any more than more than the Outback or Forester is. Just because it has an open bed and a tailgate doesn't mean you can load it with gravel!! You do realize that, right?
If Subaru markets the Baja against trucks, it will be a big mistake. But I have not seen a hint of that -- they are marketing it as a new type of crossover vehicle. Since it's a crossover vehicle that clearly sprang off a car platform, we should not expect it to do truck things or go up against truck competitors.
I agree that more power and a bigger engine would be nice, but it still would not make the Baja a truck competitor, nor would it improve the towing/hauling capacity or off-road capability (which are limited by it's unibody car origins and design more than the engine). Even though my Bean has an H6, I don't think it's any more caable for towing and hauling than my old H4 Outback other than the fact that it might be a little peppier off the line. Besides the engine, everything else is pretty much identical. Having the H6 doesn't change the basic configuration of the vehicle significantly, and it doesn't make the vehicle a whole lot more capable for carrying/towing large loads. To me, the towing/hauling limits on the entire Legacy lineup are imposed by the chassis/platform and overall design way more than the engine.
If towing and hauling are important, shoppers should move in the direction of the Frontier or Explorer All-Trac. These crossover vehicles have truck origins and are more suited to truck duties.
Regarding size, quite a few manufacturers top out with midsize vehicles in all their lines. Note: to me, full size means Intrepid/Crown-Vic/Avalon proportions in a car and F-150/Ram/Tundra proportions in a truck. Midsize means Accord/Legacy/Passat in a car and in a truck means most minivans and SUVs like the Trooper and MDX (upcoming Pilot too). But really, ever see a full size Honda or Nissan? How about a full size VW? All of these companies, and Subaru, can be very profitable without filling every size category.
I do agree that Subaru could use more vehicles in its lineup, and this is where a midsize minivan or SUV would accomodate people that want more space (notice, these are new vehicle categories as opposed to larger vehicles within the same categories). But, Subaru got into trouble when they tried to be all things to all people some years ago, so it's probably wise that they stick to their bread and butter lines of vehicles. In that respect, the baja is a variation of a known theme.
Craig
If that happens, the "Crew" will be forced to remove you as a Crew Chief, and you will be forced to stay in that same dungeon, deep within the bowels of SOA, that Pattie's been living in this past month!
Bob
You do bring up a good point, though. Subaru probably cannot, and maybe should not, try to compete with the real pickups. But then what is their niche? Less of everything for the same money? C'mon, they have to offer something, and that could be sporty handling. What about being the only "sports-cab"?
Hey, this is the wife's car, not mine. I wouldn't let her take Sandy, anyway, unless I got a Rex.
-juice
Bob
Craig
Bob