Subaru Crew - Future Models II

tenchijin

Fear not! Only one pronunciation of the chinese character '4' means 'death' in japanese.

So just call it MY 'ni sen yon' and you will not bring misfortune to yourself!

Although, even in japan they don't put a 4th floor... hmmm....

paisan

My dad might actually be interested in it.

-mike

ateixeira

If the Forester does get a 2.0l engine, it probably will be the one from the JDM Forester, with 217hp, tuned for more low end torque but less power than the WRX.

Dave: if he's quiet about the Legacy, maybe there isn't much news to report. I hope it at least gets the H6 option.

I've seen buildings with no 13th floor. Very supersticious!

-juice

sweet_subie

I got a letter from Subaru that Subaru/MBNA credit card offer is off by Jun 2002....

But it also says Subaru will come up with something new in Aug 2002 ?

Any leads on what the new offer is ?

locke2c

The GM Card?
(ducks)

-Colin

bluesubie

That's actually the first thing I thought of. Especially since Subaru will probably be going with GMAC for financing.

-Dennis

lark6

I got the MBNA card in December, hoping to use it to get coupons for parts/service. What's the point now? Oh great, yeah, maybe I can buy a Rendezvous.

Ed

ateixeira

Good thing I didn't switch cards. We have a Toys R Us card, 1% rebate on all purchases, 3% rebate from Toys R Us. It buys a lot of diapers!

If the GM card applies to Subies, that would be cool. I kind of doubt it, but we'll see.

-juice

rsholland

New Subie chief designer reportedly to come from Alfa Romeo!

IMO, this bodes well for Subaru. I've liked recent Alfa designs. I think hiring a designer with a clearly "European" design background is exactly the right thing for Subaru to do. To me, this sends a clear signal that Subaru is really interested in becoming a brand that will be regarded, not only for its AWD expertise, but also highly regarded from a design standpoint too—something Subaru has never been known for...

Bob

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165309

kens

Nice scoop, Bob. Let's hope that will be the case.

Ken

ateixeira

That's great. It's a coincidence, but the Alfa 156 immediately came to my mind, too. What a gorgeous sedan!

Apparently this guy designed the Alfa 145, Fiat Coupe, and Fiat Barchetta. Anyone have links to Alfa's Euro web site?

At Autozine I found pics of the 147, a sharp looking hatch back, is that the same?

http://autozine.kyul.net/gallery/alfa/147.htm

They have a Barchetta shot, but it's rather ordinary looking, at least in those pictures:

http://autozine.kyul.net/gallery/fiat/barchetta.htm

Let's hope he had nothing to do with this beast:

http://autozine.kyul.net/gallery/fiat/multipla.htm

-juice

rsholland

I wonder how (or if) he will impact on the scheduled ProDrive update of the '04 Impreza?

Bob

ateixeira

Front ends are one of the strenghts of most Fiats (let's ignore the Multipla for now, that's a van anyway). So if that's what people want addressed, they're in good hands.

-juice

rsholland

if we haven't heard any news from Subaru by now, regarding the NY show, that means:

1) There is no "new: news, or...

2) They will "quietly" introduce another new model.

In the past, #2 has proven to be the case, at NY. So they may(?) have the '03 Legacy there, but with little or no fanfare.

Frankly, from what I've seen (or not seen) so far from Subaru, leaves me disappointed. I doubt we will see the Legacy H-6. That, I would think, would be big news, and that Subaru would want to make a big announcement about.

Bob

hypov

Bob-
I would believe more so #1 - There is no "new" news. The news media only wrote of the Baja appearing @ the NY Auto Show, and if there was anything to write home about the Legacy H-6 they would have blurt'ed aleast a line or two.

-Dave

subearu

I'd certainly think that adding the H6 to the Legacy would be huge news and that they wouldn't want to hide that fact. C'mon - 212hp, AWD, in Subaru's best kept (overlooked) secret car?!? While it's no Blitzen, I'd be first in line around here for one, even though I doubt it'd have a 5sp AT or 6sp MT that I listed in my wants post in MTM.

Patti: YES or NO - will we REALLY like the '03 Legacy BETTER than than the '02 Legacy? (leaving it pretty vague so she doesn't get sent to the dungeon).

-Brian (still dreaming for a blitzen)

rsholland

It's mentioned on the NYAS site, and there is a picture over in the "Cafe" forum of a cut-away of the new Forester.

Bob

ateixeira

Bob: maybe they don't want to over-hype it. The Outback H6 has not helped Outback sales overall, they're actually down slightly. So maybe the figure they'll pleasantly surprise some folks, and not let anyone down.

Or maybe the GT is such a well kept secret that even SoA doesn't know about it!

I imagine Patti wants to tell us something but she's close to being thrown in that dungeon yet again. ;-)

-juice

jimmyp1

that, the Legacy is due for a freshening, right. And that's not huge news. However, with freshenings, sometimes more engine choices come along. Combine all that with Subaru's history of conservative behavior regarding things like this, and I am (perhaps overly) optimistic that we could see at least the path that the Legacy will take in a week or two.

Jim

kens

Adding the H6 as an option to the Legacy line is the logical thing to do. I think it's just a matter of time.

One thing that I'm wondering is if Subaru will tweak the H6 for more power. Remember back in 96 they introduced the 2.5L DOHC engine producing 155HP and a year later they upped it to 165 and got rid of the premium gas requirement. One of the criticisms of the H6 is that while it is smoother and more refined, it doesn't "feel" like 212 horses. The tranny has something to do with it also, but so far, there isn't any indication of that changing either.

Ken

ateixeira

Great suggestion. 222hp on regular fuel? Sweet! That would influence my purchase decision, for instance.

That plus a 5 speed auto, or a proper manual, and we could dissolve the "Fellowship of the Car" that is helping me shop! LOL

-juice

qbrozen

I feel like I'm following in your footsteps for some reason. We both had the Forester, 626, and a convertible in the garage. Of course, I traded my 626 for a Volvo, but that's a different story. Anyhoo, the wife is tired of her Forester. But she wants something that will seat more than 5 people but isn't a minivan. Wasn't this the same problem you are facing? Well, I wanted to see what you may have found that fit the bill (although I know you haven't found one to satisfy your wife yet). I just gotta know what we can go check out. The only one so far that she likes is the Land Rover Discovery.

thanks.

I really hate to leave the Suby world, but what can I do? She is really set on dumping the Forester by the end of this year.

rochcom

OK, I admit, I like to complain. But I am really, really disappointed with Subaru's actions on the Subaru MBNA Credit card.

First, they promised a 5 year program where one could earn 5% of purchases (up to $700 per year and $3500 overall) as a credit toward buying a new Subaru. Then, after less than 3 years, they cut the credit to 3% and $350 per year. In return, they expanded the program to allow use of certificates (ONLY the 3% ones)for service, parts and accessories, BUT, they come in $100 units and there is no change given, so they can't be used for minor services like oil changes or alignments or for many small parts.

Now, after less than 4 years, they do away with it entirely. Although the card agreement allows them to change the terms at any time, who would have thought that they would do so in a major way, and then, less than a year later, scrap the program well before its originally stated conclusion. I think that they broke a promise to their customers.

When I worked in sales, the first thing that one of the old-timers told me was "never make a promise you can't keep -- that's the surest way to lose a customer." Well, I guess I won't abandon Subaru over this, but they have lost a lot of trust on my part.

paisan

Don't forget they are having production problems as far as getting enough units out, so this could be delaying the H6 Legacy.

-mike

storyteller

Rochcom: What's the point of complaining when you don't know what Subaru is going to do with the new program?

fibber2

A few posts behind, as usual... While it can easily be overdone (a-la most GM models), cladding serves a very functional job in protecting metal in heavy sand/salt areas.

Chrysler minvans that have lower body cladding show significantly less paint and metal damage than their Dodge brethren without it. Rocksalt hits from sanders going the opposite way on narrow two lane roads sound like dull 'thunks' rather than sharp 'marbles on metal'. I am very glad that my OB uses cladding, and wish my new Honda had it.

Steve

rsholland

I agree. Cladding can and does serve a very useful purpose. I think most people get upset when it becomes an "in-your-face" styling crutch.

Bob

rochcom

Storyteller:

You are right, there is no point in complaining. It won't do any good.

The new program may be a good one, but given the history, does it seem likely? I admit I am a mooch (derogatory term used by car salespeople for customers who expect a good deal for the customer rather than the dealership), but they did promote one thing and then kept changing it.

rochcom

I am surprised that the H-6 didn't make its way into the XS version of the new Forester. It would be a competitive advantage and be great for those who tow. Maybe eventually. I think that another good possibility would be a low pressure turbocharger on the 2.5L that would be designed to boost torque over a wide range rather than greatly increase horsepower. Saab does this with their 9-5 series: Only 185 hp, but 207 ft.lbs. of torque at only 1800 rpm, and flat over a 2000 rpm range. Theirs is only a 2.3L. A low power turbo 2.5L should make the Forester (and Legacy/Outback series) really move, and require only regular fuel.

rsholland

A turbo Forester is in the works for '04. In Japan they already have a 2.0L Turbo Forester (XT), which is a de-tuned WRX engine putting out 217 HP. Rumor has it that is the engine we'll also get.

Bob

kens

While it's disappointing that Subaru hasn't yet offered the H6 in the Forester line, it makes sense given that the Legacy is their top of the line model. For now, it seems as though they want to reserve the H6 for their $25-30K models.

The 2.0 turbo engine on the Forester isn't really de-tuned per se. I think the correct way to look at it is as a WRX engine thats been tuned for more low-end torque.

Ken

ateixeira

Rob: we'll be looking at the new Forester, Pilot, Mazda 6, G35, and Maxima replacement, just to name a few. If Subaru offers a manual with the H6, that would be added to our list. Or a turbo Legacy.

Cladding just right: Forester, Sienna, DCX vans, Grand Cherokee.

Cladding overdone: Baja, Avalanche, Aztec, Volvo XC.

-juice

qbrozen

so the 3rd row seat isn't in your requirements?

ateixeira

Not necessarily, but it would be a bonus. We will be carrying 5 people routinely, so that is adequate.

There is no perfect car for our wants. 7 seater, AWD, 20mpg EPA city, 200+hp, under $30k, stability/traction control, etc. There is always one (usually 2-3) areas where we would have to compromise.

Disco, eh? Maybe tincup can help you out.

-juice

lark6

Although it's down on horsepower, it seems to me that the Suzuki XL-7 might suit your needs. Heresy?

Ed

paisan

The XL7 doesn't have AWD which would knock it out of Juice's running IIRC and no traction control either.

-mike

PS: I love the XL7 personally.

lark6

IIRC it has a dual-range tranny which would satisfy one of his wants.

Priorities, priorities...

Ed

PS: Congrats on the HS performance in Mom's Legacy!

ateixeira

Lots of misses:

no full-time AWD
gas mileage below my standard (17 vs 20 EPA city)
no traction control or stability control
no leg room in 3rd seat

But I did find the Grand Vitara fun to drive when we sampled one at Edmunds Live. On that model, the ride was a little too bumpy on the rough section of their test track, perhaps due to the live axle and stiff tuning.

-juice

paisan

Yep the XL7 is a traditional truck in a scaled down version. PT 4wd, Lo-range, front engine rear drive. A nice setup and one of the last of it's kind around.

-mike

ateixeira

By the way I'm not saying it's a bad little truck, just that it isn't really designed with our needs in mind. I'd never use the low range given it would be the wife's car. I doubt she'd ever even venture to manually engage 4WD.

-juice

locke2c

gas mileage and 3rd row legroom are mutually exclusive... well, maybe a minivan but we've already covered that quite well.

-Colin

ateixeira

Unless you allow rear facing. The Taurus wagon gets 20mpg city and the Volvo V70 gets 21 with a manual, even the T5 does!

A Taurus just ain't my style, not even close really. I rented one and they are inoffensive enough, just not a car for an enthusiast. Plus no manual trans.

If Volvo could work out their bugs, reliability hasn't been good enough recently to justify the high prices.

But I don't want to monopolize this topic (again), so let me just say I'd rather have a Forester turbo and strap the 6th and 7th passengers on the roof! :-)

-juice

qbrozen

Thanks. Guess you've found pretty much what I have. I was just hoping I was missing something. I saw the XL7 but ran away quickly. A budy of mine in college had a Suzuki (samurai, to be exact) and it was such a piece of garbage that I will not go near a Suzuki.

I'd REALLY like an '02 MPV, but that's out of our range. We're looking used. Any MPV before an '02 just doesn't cut it.

We'll get into a new Forester at the auto show this weekend and maybe that will get her to wait a little while. The trick is figuring out how to fix the oil leak in the current Forester to make it last a while longer.

lark6

The Dodge Grand Caravan ES AWD would be a close match for you, too. Seven-passenger capacity and MPG city > 20 would seem to be mutually exclusive. You could get close but again, drop the hp requirements. No burnouts leaving White Flint or Tysons II for you.

You are definitely going to have to set your priorities or keep waiting for that dream vehicle.

Ed

ateixeira

Need 200hp worth of zoom-zoom, eh? Though it's adequate, not truly quick, even with the 3l engine.

Adding oil each time you get gas is a lot cheaper than buying a new car. Then again, so is fixing the leak. Are you past the 60k powertrain warranty? If not I'd enlist Patti's help and tackle it.

-juice

qbrozen

got 80K clicks. Did you happen to catch my message on the Forester board concerning the problem?

My father is picking up a book on the 2.5 at the shop today so maybe we can get a better idea of what we're looking at.

Is it cheaper to fix it? I wouldn't say that just yet. Blown piston ring(s) and a blown crank seal aren't exactly cheap. Sure, if I do the work myself. But is it worth it on a vehicle my wife doesn't like anyway?

But, I will try to hold her at bay as long as possible and just keep adding the oil. Its about half a quart a week at this point and I'm just hoping it doesn't get worse.

If our Forester had power seats (with more padding!) and a moonroof, then there would be no issue. But, her thinking is since she wants to change vehicles, then she wants to get EVERYTHING on her list this time around. That means seating for 7, moonroof, and comfy seats. To me it means more passing power than the Forester offers but keep up on the gas mileage (the Disco is DEFINITELY a compromise there!). But, like I said, maybe the auto show will turn her around. Gotta check out the '03 Forester and see for ourselves. If I can get comfortable in it and she is stunned by the looks and features, then we might have a sale - even without the 3rd row. As my father says "eh, just throw a lawn chair in the back!"

locke2c

Half a quart per week is serious stuff. I'd be attempting to source a cheap, used shortblock right about now if I were you.

-Colin

subearu

Except that the sticker price for one of those is >$32k. Sure, you get the rebates and they don't sell for sticker, but 'ouch' nonetheless. That and the fact that it only comes in 'Grand' form too, making it larger than some would like.

We also looked at the '02 MPV ES (for my wife), but decided to hold off for now. She doesn't want a Forester, really wants an Ody, but ended up liking the MPV. I priced out a AWD GCV too, since we know someone who works for chryco (can get a friends & family discount of $1k). Even with that and the rebate and the $1k match last month, it still was too much.

Who knows, in a few months, she may like something else (although she hasn't quit liking the Ody for 2 years).

-Brian

qbrozen

believe me, that's the first thing I thought of. Then I thought "hell, if I'm replacing the engine, maybe i'll put a WRX powersource in there." That idea came and went quickly. But, like I said, I don't think I want to put that kind of work into something my wife doesn't want anyway.

Went by the Mazda dealer tonight and just peeked inside an '01 MPV. She likes the looks of it. Now we just gotta find one to test drive. Now I'm thinking that I'll just forego the 200 horses and look for an '00 or '01. It might be too slow for my taste, but she doesn't look for power. We'll see what happens on a test drive.

locke2c

Good idea, if you're not keen on fixing it dump it quick...

-Colin