Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246

    ..Mike

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Take note of Paul Hansen's (shirokuma) comments. He's the one who did the illustration of the new WRX, a few days before it debuted, found on apex.com, which I posted. He seems to have the inside line as to what Subaru is doing. He lives in Japan.


    Bob


    http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=252528

  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Interesting link. I think that after the whole Impreza redesign, I'm going to guess that the upcoming Legacy will have a lot more conservative changes.

    It's true that in Japan, auto taxes vary based on engine displacement size. And as necessity breeds invention, Japanese manufacturers have found lots of ways to squeeze out power from tiny engines. Imagine if the US tried to implement that -- all those SUV owners would go bezerk!

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bob: interesting that they're claiming it was changed for WRC purposes. Yeah, right.

    Edmunds likes it, too.

    Mike: remember, a Forester could be anywhere from 200-400 lbs lighter than a Legacy. That's a lot of ballast to carry around. If they tune the small turbo just right, to prevent any lag whatsoever, the TT will be the one. If not, a 2.5 turbo on a much lighter vehicle would be my choice, no doubt.

    -juice
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    miksmi Oct 3, 2002 10:32am

    Make mine dark blue please! ;-)

    -Brian
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    While I believe that the Forester and Legacy will get probably get turbos, Autoweek has been wrong before.

    Before the N. America WRX debuted, they said it would get 213 h.p.! ;-)

    -Dennis
  • babaorileybabaoriley Member Posts: 74
    I've been contemplating trading in my 2K OB in for a VDC. I love my car, it has provided me with 37K trouble-free miles. But I love the thought of a bigger, more responsive engine, and coupled with 1.9% financing had me leaning more towards the idea more and more.
    However, I think the 4EAT needs to be tighter and more responsive.

    But, now that I know a MUCH improved Legacy will show up in 2004, I can wait. I only hope they also improve the tranny, and not just add sportshift like the current GT. A sportshift 5EAT or 6MT would have me salivating for 2 whole years!

    Again, thanks to all who dug this info up.

    -Brett
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    BTW are interested in the sedan or another wagon? I'm PW (ahem, pro-wagon, guys).

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I tried shiftronic and liked it. It would would be a great companion to the H6, which likes to rev.

    -juice
  • babaorileybabaoriley Member Posts: 74
    Definately wagon! How else to cart the dog around? Not to mention the Home Depot runs.

    I haven't tried the shiftronic, but do downshift manually with my automatic for quick acceleration, but the gears are a little wide. I do appreciate the MPG the tranny affords me.

    -Brett
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Guess I'm not really sure which side of the fence I'd choose (wagon or sedan). We have an MPV, so it isn't necessary for 2 wagons in our fleet. I really like the looks of the B-series Sedans though, so if I were to choose today, it'd be a sedan. I'll have to wait and see.

    -Brian
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Brett,

    I'm sure it's just a matter of time until we see a 5EAT as it becomes more and more common among the competitors.

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If I didn't have a wagon bodystyle, no way could I have hauled my old, damp carpeting away. I need the room so often it's ridiculous.

    My wife needs the room for the baby gear. Right now we're using the Legacy to haul the baby around, and I use the Forester for Home Depot runs, any "utility" jobs basically.

    So you may find that it's convenient for both to be practical in size and shape.

    Boxy is better.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    We all know Subaru is about to unleash a few more turbos over the course of the next couple of years. Some thoughts:

    The WRX wasn't just a homerun for Subaru. It was a Mark Meguire-type grand slam! It was a shot clear out of the ballpark. Can we expect similar results from the STi, Forester turbo, and Legacy turbo? Maybe, maybe not...

    STi:
    This will be a homerun. Will it be a Mequire-type homerun? I doubt it. Why? Simply because so few will be made (and SOLD!). Yes, it will bring more notice to Subaru (as a brand), and will certainly bring people into the showroom. They'll come to see the STi, but will end up buying WRXs. So, that's a good thing, for sure. I don't, however, think it will have the same impact of the original WRX. I call it homerun—with bases empty.

    Forester turbo:
    I could be wrong, but I suspect this will be the "every man's turbo," much like most Volvo turbos sold. Performance, yes, but more "real-world," day-in, and day-out performance. A homerun? I doubt it; but it will certainly be for extra bases. Double? Triple? We'll just have to wait and see. If it comes as a 2.5, I'd say a triple, otherwise a double.

    Legacy turbo:
    This could be interesting. We've heard for several years that there will be a Legacy turbo. Most of us have assumed it will be a 2.0, or more recently, a 2.5. Well I wonder? I'd be willing to bet that any Legacy turbo will come Stateside as a $30K+ vehicle. Do you think a 4-cylinder turbo, or 4-cylinder twin-turbo, will fare well with the over $30K sport sedan audience? I'm not so sure. Mercedes has done much better with the 6-cylinder SLK, than with the the supercharged 4-cylinder version. I think to really succeed with a $30K+ sport sedan Subaru will need 6-cylinders. It's just expected in that market. Just like Acura has been struggling (with sales) with the 6-cylinder RL, in a V8 dominated segment, I think Subaru will struggle (a bit) with a 4-cylinder Legacy turbo, amongst 6-cylinder rivals. I say if we get a 2.0 4-cylinder turbo/twin turbo, it will be a double; if it's a 2.5 turbo, a triple with one on base. If we get a 3.0 6-cylinder turbo, it will be a homerun, with two on base!

    Bob
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    The Forester Cross Sports' wheels look nearly identical to the OZ Superleggeras I've installed on mine. It's growing on me a bit.

    While traveling I picked up the current issue of CAR which rated the 2.0XT at 177hp and a 7.9 0-60 IIRC. I don't think that's enough of a jump in power over the N/A EJ25 to justify the expense. I mean, the same drivetrain pumps out 50 more hp in the WRX! At least get it in the 190-200 range - there's a lot more car to move!

    Ed (wants power and cargo capacity, is that so wrong?)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    In Europe, all Foresters have 2.0 engines, not the 2.5 we get. So the power difference for them, is significant. All the more justification for the 2.5 turbo here in North America.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    As we discussed over our pints at O'Sheas, North America needs something more than a 2.0 in a Legacy B4-like model. It's that $30K stigma juice was talking about. A 2.5T would certainly close the gap.

    A Forester turbo just might be for "every man (or woman)". It would certainly be an engine that would have to have more low-end torque compared to the WRX. That's how they've tuned it in Japan, so let's wait and see.

    Ken
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    It claims Forester Turbo in 2004 confidently ! Is this a confirmed news or is it still a rumor?

    I am tired of my OB 4cyl....regret buying it for its lackluster performance though it offers good utility. Don't want to buy WRX becos we have kids need more like an SUV.....OB H6 is again useless that it does not pick up until 4,000 RPM( see edmunds' recent article on the crossover comparison.......compare this with Cross country or audi....gives same torque in 1800 rpm.....need forester turbo !
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    My concern is: if Subaru offers a 2.5 turbo in the '04 Forester, offering that same engine (1 year later) in the redesigned Legacy could be(?) somewhat of a letdown. I think customers might expect more out of a vehicle that is positioned a bit higher in the marketplace.

    As we all know, the *premium* Legacy has been neglected way too long. I think in order to reverse that, they will need a turbo vehicle that will have the same impact that the WRX has had, in its market segment. That's why I think an H-6 turbo, not an H-4 turbo, is the better answer.

    As much as I agree with juice, in wanting to have this as a sub-$30K vehicle, I just don't think it's going to happen. I think when it hits the market, it will be priced right around the Outback VDC, maybe a bit higher since it will be a turbo. I could see it and the STi coming in around the same price.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    mmmm yum yum. I like it already.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    rumor! ;)

    Seriously, Subaru has pretty much said this is a done deal. The question: 2.0 or 2.5?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Lark: I also like those wheels much better than the current wheels on the Forester XS.

    On the future turbos, pricing is everything. The WRX proved that. Some mags had prices forecast up to $28 grand. So actual prices were a pleasanat surprise - it was affordable. You can buy one today for $22.3k, and that's a sedan.

    So, whether you're talking Forester or Legacy turbo, it has to be relatively affordable. I say make the turbo engine standard on the XS models in the Forester lineup. Bump prices up by $500, maybe. Right now I know a LOT of people that bought the base model because the upgrade model didn't have a different engine. Maybe it should.

    In the Legacy line, I think the turbo should replace the 2.5 GT. Again, maybe let prices go up by $500 or so, not much more.

    $500 may sound optimistic, but if you look across GM's lineup, that's what they charge, roughly, to upgrade from a 4 banger to a V6. All right, maybe $1000, but that's it.

    Stay below the $30 grand limit, or they'll depend on incentives to sell, and resale will erode.

    Remember, Altimas offer 240hp for $22.8k at retail. Accords have 240hp now, too. These are not $30k vehicles, these are similarly priced competitors.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    but my gut feeling is that you're being overly optimistic. I'd really be surprised (very happy but also very surprised) if the Legacy turbo comes in under $30K. I don't think they're going after Altima customers. but more BMW 3-Series customers—with the all-new '05 Legacy.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    for thinking the Legacy turbo will be a $30K+ vehicle is simply because the WRX is about $5K over the RS. Most Legacy GTs that I've seen, have stickered at $25K or above. So, if you add $5K to that, you're at $30K.

    I think whatever Subaru does with the Forester turbo will also be a good indicator of how the Legacy turbo will be priced. But again, if Subaru does nothing more than drop the Forester turbo into the new Legacy (a year later), I think that will be somewhat of a letdown. I think the Legacy turbo needs to stand out in some fashion from all other turbos, in terms of performance.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I hope not. Everybody and their mother is trying to be a 3 series. It's too small for a family car and overpriced once well equipped. Combine those two factors and it can be grossly overpriced for its size. The 325i I drove with my wife was $32 grand - with vinyl seats!

    A 2.5GT is $26,220 at MSRP. Street prices right now are in the $24k range. For a grand more, $27,220, you're in accessible pricing territory, safely below a stripped Bimmer. Unless they add more equipment, maybe 17"s, I still can't see it starting at over $28 grand.

    Now let's look at the Forester. $24,420 for an XS premium with a manual tranny. I'd just love to see it at $24,999, even $25,500 would make it a deal. But honestly, it's too small to be in the $26k and up price range, it's a compact after all.

    I hope Subaru learned its lesson. People were simply not willing to pay $33 grand for the VDC. Even today, with street prices in the $28k range, sales are down vs. before the H6.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Obviously they didn't learn their lesson from the SVX and VDC. The market will not support a $30K+ car from subaru :(

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Does anyone know the break down of sales? I'd be very curious to know how many VDCs were sold vs. LL Beans. I bet there were more Beans, this despite the fact that a few people don't like the idea of having a store label on their car.

    Ford sells stability control on the Focus for $400. I realize VTD is also added, but the Bean has free maintenance and it's way, way cheaper.

    IMO Subaru has the same problem with the 2.5 GT. By itself, it's a nice car, but the L/SE kind of forces you to think twice. Is it worth $4 grand more for VTD and shiftronic vs. a regular auto? No, even with heated leather.

    With a turbo it would, though.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    keep in mind, however, the Legacy turbo will go in an all-new car. It won't be on the current platform. Subaru will probably move the Legacy/Outback up a notch in terms of market position, from where it is now. Subaru has done this with every Legacy upgrade in the past. No reason to think that trend will reverse itself.

    That being the case, the next-generation Legacy could well be a legit competitor* for the 3-Series.

    * = When I say competitor, I mean for 3-Series customers—and their $$

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I see what you mean, you're talking about the next Legacy, while I'm talking about adding a turbo to the current 2.5 GT.

    I think the 2.5 GT needs to be "saved", else it'll suffer slow sales and its failure could even bring the shiftronic down with it.

    Obviously, I hope that doesn't happen. A turbo is just the ticket, even if it is the same engine in the Forester. It just needs something to stand out from the L/SE.

    The next gen is a whole new can 'o worms. How big will it be? Some (not me) consider the current Legacy a compact. And if it gets much bigger, will it gain weight?

    Mass is critical to me. The more weight, the slower the car, the harder it is to stop, the more inertia to overcome when you turn. So, toss in more engine, bigger brakes, bigger wheels and tires, and suddenly yeah, you're talking $30 grand or so.

    And then I'm buying a Forester turbo for sure.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If it goes over 30K it's got to be be significantly larger like Tarus/Avalon sized and have an H6 either NA or Turboed.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    it will go in an all-new car...

    Reportedly it will debut NOT next fall, but the following fall as an '05 model, which is when the Legacy/Outback are supposed to be redone.

    If you think about it, it makes sense. They introduce an all-new vehicle, with an all-new turbo, to gain maximum marketing impact.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    it will be larger, but lighter... Subaru is now on this aluminum kick, so I guess the Legacy will be next to get more alloy body parts.

    I think only the top-of-the-line models (turbos/H-6s) will break the $30K plateau. I'm sure the more mainstream models will be close to what they are now.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You're probably right about the timing, Bob, but I think they should push it forward a year.

    True about the '05s, but what about the '04s? Another carry-over year, when the '03 2.5GT is selling slowly? The salesman at Fitz said they hadn't sold any yet. We're talking about two more years of slow sales.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    is rumored to get the Phase III 2.5 H-4 engine. If that pans out—and if the Phase III offers more ponies, they can hold out on the turbo for one more year.

    Bob
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    When I first test drove an Audi with one a few years back I thought the whole idea was daft! I just got back from a trip to Europe where I drove a VW for 2 weeks with one and I'm absolutely convinced its a waste of time and money! At least till Audi/VW get rid of that 1 second delay when you shift! Can't say I've driven any other variant but if the Subaru one is like the Audi/VW one, for 99% of my driving needs its a waste of time except for racing at the lights! Better off with a real stick if you want to row your own gears or at least something like an SMG. My 2 cents worth anyway.
  • ironsides1ironsides1 Member Posts: 30
    will be available later this year. H6 motor with cloth seats, etc. Should be popular with those who aren't sold on leather and should have a lower price sticker.

    Jon
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    I'm wishing a turbo 2.5l or H6 Legacy GT is available NOW. :-(
    My plans for a new car a year down the road has been moved up to like.... yesterday.
    Patti, have y'all got one hidden in the closet? ;-)

    -Dave
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Let's build you one dave! :) I know that AZP would be up for helping you out on the install side :) or you could go for a Legacy GT wagon with shift-tronic and we could do a turbo kit ;)

    -mike
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    turbo kit for a 2.5?
    who has that?
    Howz 'bout a bolt on SC?
    then again, Sarra is getting me the new car for my b'day to replace the OB, and I'm pretty sure she'll frown after what we went thru. ;-)

    Maybe I'll settle for the OB VDC to GT convert... but, I'm not enthusiastic about sun/moon roof it has.

    I think I'll think a little bit more.

    -Dave
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    She knows it can't get any worse! It could be a good reason for you to get in even more practice @ the track and auto-x :)

    I'd definitely be up for the VDC->GT conversion. At the least it would be a unique vehicle.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Where did you see the info on the 30th Anniversary model? I wonder if that will also be offered in the USA, and not just Canada? In any event, that's good news. Any mention of a 5-speed manual?

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Didn't they have a 30th anniversary edition a few years ago?

    -mike
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Ya, 1999.

    -Dave
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    If you visit the SOJ site, and a few other Subaru international sites, you will see "30th Anniversary" plastered all over those sites.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    That's weird what was the anniversary edition that was sold in '99 then? 25th?

    -mike
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Dave - there was a guy on the Tri-State i-club forum that has a turboed Forester. I'm not sure who's kit it is. Being close to RalliSpec, I'm sure we can figure something out.:-)
    Btw, the VDC's come with an off switch now (since it's second year, IIRC).

    Is Canada's 30 anniv. model behind the U.S.? We had 30 anniv. models in '99.
    edit: paisan and I thinking the same thing. :-)

    -Dennis
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Comes back on @ 30mph, so it won't help you in auto-x or race situations. You'd have to pull the VDC fuse :)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    celebrating different things. The current 30th anniversary models acknowledges Subaru's 30 years of offering AWD. I'm not sure what the earlier event celebrated.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru's 50th anniversary of making cars is coming up in a year or two. I read (a while back, and I don't remember where..) that "FHI" was going to change their official name to "Subaru" in honor of that event.

    Bob
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