So far very few. I did expect a larger displacement H-6, and that didn't happen. I didn't expect 250 HP out of the H-6; I was expecting 240 – 245 HP.
At the moment the XT turbo seems to be the hot ticket. It's got waaay more torque than the the H-6.; plus it can be had with the manual.
C & D tested a OB VDC the first year it was out with a 330xi and I believe a A4 quattro, both with "ESC". they hated the OB because with the other 2 they could still spin it into the snowbank but no way as hard as they tried could they do that with the OB. So I guess which one has "better " system depends on what you need it for!
Bob: About the H6, I was expecting a 3.0 250 HP all along. Don't know where I saw details, but I remember hearing about it for at least 2-3 months now. So it's definitely inline with the rumor mill.
The cars look great, but I also will be interested to see if they have seat memory and nav. Dual-zone climate control is definitely nice (Legacy gets it too). The Outback interior, with the wood steering wheel, looks awesome (I assume that's the LLB/VDC model).
It's going to be real hard resisting a new car!! The 2.5XT model with a 5-spd could conceivably take the place of my LLB wagon and my WRX....
Craig
ps: if nobody hears from me for a few days, it's because my wife killed me after I talked about getting a new car.
If you're going down anyway, I'd sure appreciate it if you'd talk to my wife too and then take the hit for both of us. Then at least one of us gets to live to drive the Outback XT (5-speed).
LOVE the wood/leather steering wheels, how cool is that? Very Lexus ES330.
Also note the subtle hood bulges.
Looks like they do drop the cloth H6 models, and yes I expect the turbo to fill that gap. That's why I think, the turbos will cost less than the H6 models, despite very likely being quicker.
So unless the H6 is a lot more fuel efficient *and* runs on regular octane, my pick would be the turbo.
Yeah it must be wrong. They only list a single XT model, not base and Ltd like they do for the 2.5i. Under interior is says perforated leather.
I'd hate that. Leather and no moonroof - just the opposite of what I want.
The "Limited" package usually includes both, I'd really like to see just a moonroof with cloth. I might settle for having neither if the price is right.
But less than an XT? I doubt it. Maybe $1500 more for starter is my guess. $25k at invoice for a base XT. $27k GT Limited. $28k for a Bean, $30k for a VDC.
Those are my guesstimate at invoice prices, not MSRP.
I'm still a little suspcious of the 2.5T output ratings, however. 250/250 sounds too round a number to be true. I'm betting that it's making a bit more.
On the other hand the 250/219 of the H6 is probably right. What did the older model make? The increase HP is probably at the top end.
So, the features that are unique to the OB vis-a-vis the GT are: - VDC - Wood trim steering wheel - Tinted rear glass (it's now a truck) - Ground clearance up another 1" - Suspension settings
I wonder if the ECU for the 2.5T in either model is tuned differently.
Do you anticipate a likely increase in OB base price (MSRP) between 04 and 05. The new spcs kind of justify an increase but Subaru may not want to alienate existing buyers by taking the base OB into a new price bracket......
This may not seem very useful to anyone else, but I may be days away from a decision on an FXT.
Ken: I agree. Maybe parent GM told Subaru to start rounding off the figures (GM has on many models for decades).
The current H6 makes 212/210, so it gets 38 more ponies but just 9 more foot-pounds, and at the same rpm. Basically it sounds like they just made it breathe better.
The 2.5T/auto combo did not impress me in the XT, but...with a 5 speed auto and SportShift it might.
Then again, the current H6 is held back by a 4 speed auto also, that impressed me even less, although it was ultra-smooth.
I still think the turbo will be quicker, but the difference will be pretty small, and the H6 a lot more smooth and efficient. Just a guess.
While we are speculating, here is my best guess at prices. This is purely fictional, by the way, for entertainment value only. Side curtains are standard, tinted windows, bigger size, and more content and power, so prices will inch up about $400-600 is my guess. That would still make the new models a better value.
OK, here are my guesstimates, all include freight:
Outback 2.5i invoice: $22,500 4 speed auto is an $800 option
Outback 2.5i Limited: $25,000 same as current, specs seem to imply 6CD is dropped which offsets price increase
Outback 2.5 XT: $25,000 5 speed auto for $1000, this tranny option costs more than the 4 speed
Outback 2.5 XT Limited: $27,500 5 speed for another $1000
Outback 3.0 R LL Bean: $28,800 bigger increase for curtains and 5 speed auto and Sportshift
Outback 3.0R VDC: $30,500 smaller increase where competition is most intense
Note the Baja turbo cost what the previous premium model cost (call it a Limited equivalent), so very likely they'll do the same here, the turbo for the same price with fewer features.
If my prices are accurate, I would put XT vs. XT on my short list. $23.3k for a Forester XT nowadays, so we're talking $1700 more for the bigger and more feature-laden Legacy. Sounds about right to me.
rthompson, you can look at it in terms of pulling power. My 95 hp tractor makes tons more torque than the 165 hp 2.5 engine in my Forester. If I had the tractor engine in my Forester, I could dump the clutch in 3rd gear and not kill the engine (probably break the tranny in the process too). Whereas if I had the Forester engine in my tractor, I doubt I could even pull any implement.
I bet the prices for new Leg/OB will be raised at least 1000-1500 across the board, because: 1) brand is moving upscale 2) need to keep a price gap btw. OBXT and FXT, which is already at 25K.
I think a $1500 price bump would be a mistake, and sales would suffer. Then they'd need bigger incentives, in which case resale would suffer, which would actually drag the Subaru name down, not move it upscale.
Look at Acura, they price the MDX below the market demand price, and had wait lists. Resale is strong, the model is a certified hit even years after it came out.
I hope I'm right. If the XT costs $26 grand my wife would have me join Lucien's parents in looking for a left over 2004 LL Bean.
"Outback 2.5 XT: $25,000 5 speed auto for $1000, this tranny option costs more than the 4 speed
Outback 2.5 XT Limited: $27,500 5 speed for another $1000"
Does this mean that you think the auto will be standard on the XT Limited and that the manual will be a $1K option? (That's what VW did with the Passat W8 wagon).
One of the things I really really dislike about the new OB/Leagcy is the storage cubby in the middle of the dash between the vents. This is covered with IMHO cheap looking plastic cover. I think the 7" navigation monitor looks so slick and makes the interior look more upmarket. This is one of the main reason I also want the NAV
"The ground clearance has been increased to 8.4 inches on Outback 2.5i and Outback 3.0 R models, while Outback 2.5 XT models provide 8.7 inches of ground clearance for increased off-road capabilities. The increase in ground clearance, coupled with improved angle of approach, angle of departure and ramp breakover angle give the 2005 Outback models increased off-highway capabilities."
Edit: That's a .5" increase for the H6 models (7.9 vs. 8.4), 1.1" increase for the H4 models (7.3 vs. 8.4) and a 1.4" increase on the XT over an '04 H4 model (7.3 vs. 8.7).
"cloth upholstery for the Outback 2.5i and Outback 2.5 XT models, and leather-trimmed upholstery for the Outback 2.5i Limited, 2.5 XT Limited and 3.0R models"
"A new-type dual-panel glass power moonroof is standard for Outback 2.5i Limited, 2.5 XT Limited and Outback 3.0 R models."
"includes an 8-way power driver’s seat for all Outback 2.5i models, Outback 2.5 XT Limited and Outback 3.0 R models, with Outback 2.5 XT Limited and 3.0 R models also including a standard 4-way power passenger seat."
XT base doesn't get a power driver's seat?? I personally don't care but that seems odd.
Comments
DaveM- You're probably right for Philly; maybe by NY we'll be able to sit in them.
Mark
DaveM
At the moment the XT turbo seems to be the hot ticket. It's got waaay more torque than the the H-6.; plus it can be had with the manual.
Bob
back to the VDC discussion
C & D tested a OB VDC the first year it was out with a 330xi and I believe a A4 quattro, both with "ESC".
they hated the OB because with the other 2 they could still spin it into the snowbank but no way as hard as they tried could they do that with the OB. So I guess which one has "better " system depends on what you need it for!
DaveM
The cars look great, but I also will be interested to see if they have seat memory and nav. Dual-zone climate control is definitely nice (Legacy gets it too). The Outback interior, with the wood steering wheel, looks awesome (I assume that's the LLB/VDC model).
It's going to be real hard resisting a new car!! The 2.5XT model with a 5-spd could conceivably take the place of my LLB wagon and my WRX....
Craig
ps: if nobody hears from me for a few days, it's because my wife killed me after I talked about getting a new car.
2. Why did they drop Basic OB H6 ......? Plot to boost turbo sales ?
If you're going down anyway, I'd sure appreciate it if you'd talk to my wife too and then take the hit for both of us. Then at least one of us gets to live to drive the Outback XT (5-speed).
Zman
p.s. Thanks. I'll owe ya.
Cheers Pat.
DaveM- You're probably right for Philly; maybe by NY we'll be able to sit in them.
Mark
Yeah, saw that increased towing, how much?
LOVE the wood/leather steering wheels, how cool is that? Very Lexus ES330.
Also note the subtle hood bulges.
Looks like they do drop the cloth H6 models, and yes I expect the turbo to fill that gap. That's why I think, the turbos will cost less than the H6 models, despite very likely being quicker.
So unless the H6 is a lot more fuel efficient *and* runs on regular octane, my pick would be the turbo.
-juice
Life is good.
-juice
XT models get perforated leather standard, seats are unique too. But no cloth and you must get climate control, that won't help keep prices down. :-(
Looks like only the 2.5i gets cloth and manual A/C. Is that right?
-juice
So that means ALL Legacys and ALL Outbacks get Sportshift now.
168hp, just like Legacy, for the 2.5i.
XT makes 250 lb-ft at 3600, H6 makes 219 lb-ft at 4200. Guess which one will be quicker?
-juice
Side curtains on every model, like the Legacy.
-juice
My hope is that there IS a base/cloth OB XT costing less than the FXT, basically an OBi with nothing extra added but the T4. cnd $34-35K. Any chance?
I'd hate that. Leather and no moonroof - just the opposite of what I want.
The "Limited" package usually includes both, I'd really like to see just a moonroof with cloth. I might settle for having neither if the price is right.
But less than an XT? I doubt it. Maybe $1500 more for starter is my guess. $25k at invoice for a base XT. $27k GT Limited. $28k for a Bean, $30k for a VDC.
Those are my guesstimate at invoice prices, not MSRP.
-juice
Bob
On the other hand the 250/219 of the H6 is probably right. What did the older model make? The increase HP is probably at the top end.
So, the features that are unique to the OB vis-a-vis the GT are:
- VDC
- Wood trim steering wheel
- Tinted rear glass (it's now a truck)
- Ground clearance up another 1"
- Suspension settings
I wonder if the ECU for the 2.5T in either model is tuned differently.
Ken
I noticed that Navi and HID are not part of the OB lineup either.
Ken
Bob
Do you anticipate a likely increase in OB base price (MSRP) between 04 and 05. The new spcs kind of justify an increase but Subaru may not want to alienate existing buyers by taking the base OB into a new price bracket......
This may not seem very useful to anyone else, but I may be days away from a decision on an FXT.
The current H6 makes 212/210, so it gets 38 more ponies but just 9 more foot-pounds, and at the same rpm. Basically it sounds like they just made it breathe better.
-juice
What is the decisionmaking between a 6C 250 HP and a 4C 250 HP turbo? More torque means I can do what?
If I'm only driving an AT
However, depends too on the rpm that the torque occurs.
The 6 cylinder may have more torque to 2000 rpm, but the turbo probably takes over after that.
Need details on individual power curves for each engine.
John
What is the decisionmaking between a 6C 250 HP and a 4C 250 HP turbo? More torque means I can do what?
If I'm only driving an AT
Then again, the current H6 is held back by a 4 speed auto also, that impressed me even less, although it was ultra-smooth.
I still think the turbo will be quicker, but the difference will be pretty small, and the H6 a lot more smooth and efficient. Just a guess.
While we are speculating, here is my best guess at prices. This is purely fictional, by the way, for entertainment value only. Side curtains are standard, tinted windows, bigger size, and more content and power, so prices will inch up about $400-600 is my guess. That would still make the new models a better value.
OK, here are my guesstimates, all include freight:
Outback 2.5i invoice: $22,500
4 speed auto is an $800 option
Outback 2.5i Limited: $25,000
same as current, specs seem to imply 6CD is dropped which offsets price increase
Outback 2.5 XT: $25,000
5 speed auto for $1000, this tranny option costs more than the 4 speed
Outback 2.5 XT Limited: $27,500
5 speed for another $1000
Outback 3.0 R LL Bean: $28,800
bigger increase for curtains and 5 speed auto and Sportshift
Outback 3.0R VDC: $30,500
smaller increase where competition is most intense
-juice
If my prices are accurate, I would put XT vs. XT on my short list. $23.3k for a Forester XT nowadays, so we're talking $1700 more for the bigger and more feature-laden Legacy. Sounds about right to me.
-juice
media.subaru.com
The XT auto is not. It is still merely "very fast", but not out of this world like the 5MT.
SportShift availability and 5 ratios changes that - and for both H6 and turbos!
-juice
John
1) brand is moving upscale
2) need to keep a price gap btw. OBXT and FXT, which is already at 25K.
Still a lot of car for the money.
Catch the "4 level" heated seat option? My back will rejoice.
Greg
While the Legacy does feel more upscale, it's still lacking near-luxury amenities that people here are asking for, such as:
* seat memory
* telescoping steering wheel
* HIDs
* Navi
I think a $1500 price bump would be a mistake, and sales would suffer. Then they'd need bigger incentives, in which case resale would suffer, which would actually drag the Subaru name down, not move it upscale.
Look at Acura, they price the MDX below the market demand price, and had wait lists. Resale is strong, the model is a certified hit even years after it came out.
I hope I'm right. If the XT costs $26 grand my wife would have me join Lucien's parents in looking for a left over 2004 LL Bean.
-juice
Cheers Pat.
You speculated:
"Outback 2.5 XT: $25,000
5 speed auto for $1000, this tranny option costs more than the 4 speed
Outback 2.5 XT Limited: $27,500
5 speed for another $1000"
Does this mean that you think the auto will be standard on the XT Limited and that the manual will be a $1K option? (That's what VW did with the Passat W8 wagon).
Zman
Compare:
http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2004_chicago/outback/images/DSCN- 2262.jpg
http://www.wheels.ca/jpg/4296.jpg
- Spinaker
"The ground clearance has been increased to 8.4 inches on Outback 2.5i and Outback 3.0 R models, while Outback 2.5 XT models provide 8.7 inches of ground clearance for increased off-road capabilities. The increase in ground clearance, coupled with improved angle of approach, angle of departure and ramp breakover angle give the 2005 Outback models increased off-highway capabilities."
Edit: That's a .5" increase for the H6 models (7.9 vs. 8.4), 1.1" increase for the H4 models (7.3 vs. 8.4) and a 1.4" increase on the XT over an '04 H4 model (7.3 vs. 8.7).
The OB XT is looking better and better. :-)
DaveM
Agreed
Zman
DaveM
G
"A new-type dual-panel glass power moonroof is standard for Outback 2.5i Limited, 2.5 XT Limited and Outback 3.0 R models."
"includes an 8-way power driver’s seat for all Outback 2.5i models, Outback 2.5 XT Limited and Outback 3.0 R models, with Outback 2.5 XT Limited and 3.0 R models also including a standard 4-way power passenger seat."
XT base doesn't get a power driver's seat?? I personally don't care but that seems odd.
DaveM