Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Bob,

     I certainly don't take it personally. While design is important and one can make a case for originality and boldness, one needs to remember that bold design does not translate into sales if it is not attractive to the majority. This is what Auto Manufacturers need to do, sell vehicles.

     Pontiac's Aztek is a good example of this. It was a very functional vehicle that seemed to be well put together from what owners reported. It also has a very rabid group of supporters among those owners (kind of like Subaru). However it's design was too bold, to the extent it was perceived as excruciatingly ugly to the general public. It did not sell mainly due to the design. Subarus in the past suffered from awkward designs that kept very good vehicles from selling except to Subaru faithful. The XT6 and SVX are two examples where I believe a more main stream design would have led to more sales. A good vehicle design IMO does not need to be defended, it should at best create desire and at worst not offend.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Is this the "facelifted" Impreza?

     

    http://webpages.charter.net/drifter/Images/nasioc/facelift-sti-au- - toexpress.jpg

     

    It certainly appears to be. Will have to see this in person.

     

    First impression is not good. :( I've found it almost always is a bad idea to try to integrate a new look on to an existing platform. I think Subaru would have been wiser to try this on an all-new platform.

     

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    it gives you an idea of how they may integrate this new look into the existing Forester and Legacy.

     

    My biggest problem with the looks of the Impreza (this one as well as all current generation Imprezas) is not so much the look of the front, but that of the whole car. The body design is chunky and not very graceful. From what I can see here, that issue has yet to be addressed, which is a shame.

     

    Bob

     

      
  • rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    Me too! Although I could settle for 35-40 mpg real world numbers.

     

    IMHO diesel is already a thoroughly tested, durable engine design whereas hybrids are in their infancy.

     

    Develop diesel engines first then bring along hybrids later for those who want to drag around a couple hundred pounds of acid.

     

    Eric
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...don;t like the grill & it looks like they are chasing Audis....esp the under grill part...

     

    Isn't that Subarus stated goal - to be more like Audi?
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    yeah, 45 MPG is a bit high, but it could get close.

     

    The European Volvo V50 is available with a 2.0L Turbo-Diesel that produces 236 ft/lbs of torque at 2,000 RPM and has a highway EPA rating of 52MPG! That's only 2WD mind you, but 45 MPG highway should be achievable, with 35-40 real world combined.

     

    Sly
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    I sure hope we don't get Audi's reliability as a side effect of this up-market push.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    diesel is heinously expensive right now and going to get worse when the low sulfur and low particulate regs go into place...

     

    and it has very poor availability; where I live I'd conservatively say fewer than 25% of gas stations offer it.

     

    no thanks.

     

    ~c
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I don't think we'll see it here. Europe, yes; but here I doubt it.

     

    Bob
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    For me the issue is how poorly the design elements join together. The whole look of the car gives the impression that the front fascia, body, and rear end were designed very separately and thrown together.

     

    I certainly understand going for a corporate image, but Im not sure this is the best way to go about it- I echo your sentiment that integrating a new look is best left to a redesigned vehicle. However, I dont think what that picture shows is a complete disaster and I feel this new look has POTENTIAL to work, with a few execution tweaks... we'll have to see what actually arrives on shore. (I am personally a fan of the Alfa-Romeo esque grille, and am looking forward to seeing how the SUV looks when it debuts under whichever name at NAIAS).

     

    ~alpha
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    "diesel is heinously expensive right now and going to get worse when the low sulfur and low particulate regs go into place...

      

    and it has very poor availability; where I live I'd conservatively say fewer than 25% of gas stations offer it.

      

    no thanks."

     

    Here it is about the same price as regular gas, not long ago it was much cheaper. I'm no expert but I believe that diesel requires a lot less refining and therefore costs less to produce. So I think oil companies are gouging and/or trying to limit the appeal of diesel.

     

    Availability is more limited but with a 500-600 mile range, I don't think that's an issue at all. When at home, you can do with a single station, and when on the highway, availability is actually not bad. I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing: there won't be more availability until there are more diesel cars on the road. But that will require the better fuel quality, coming in 2006 in Canada, and the people getting re-educated on the newer diesel technology: they are no longer slow, noisy, and smelly!

     

    Volks has done quite well here in eastern Canada with their smaller turbo-diesel cars.

     

    Sly
  • atlgaxtatlgaxt Member Posts: 501
    When asked how the B9x will be made premium the answer was:

     

    "This will be built on our core competence: a "boxer" engine and symmetrical all-wheel drive. So the car would offer the low center of gravity and a good fuel economy with light weight."

     

    Huh? Does that mean that Subaru has been making premium vehicles since the 1970s? To me, this interview was disappointing and has made me question if Subaru has what it takes to change their niche. Beyond the BS talking about premium vehicles and value, it seems to me that in terms of new technology (hybrids, diesels, stability control, navigation systems etc.) Subaru will have enough trouble keeping up with Toyota and Honda, not even to mention trying to compete with premium brands. At the same time, Honda, Acura, Mazda, Infinity and many others are coming onto Subaru's turf with fancy new AWD systems. I'm afraid Subaru is going down the same unfortunate path as VW, with the Saab 9-2X being the first flop.

     

    Subaru used to sell cheap sturdy cars. More recently, I thought they had two great niches.

     

    1. A safe and responsible alternative to the SUV. This was a good strategy, catching the backlash against SUVs, giving people the capability they really need without the stigma.

     

    2. High performance at bargain prices. This is also a good strategy, since small Japanese cars have become so popular with young tuners and enthusiasts.

     

    Why can't Subaru focus on these areas instead of trying to become something that I am not sure they will be capable of.

     

    Sorry for the long rant. It is the day before the holiday break, and I think I have some type of flu bug, so my productivity has been shot.
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    Very good points. The only reason I'm currently driving a Subaru (OBXT) is your point #1. And I think a lot of the folks who bought the LGT first came to Subaru via the WRX because of your point #2.

     

    Because of their limited R&D resources, I think Subaru should concentrate on the diesel option. I think the ruggedness and practicality of turbo-diesels would be a great match for Subaru's traditional martkets. I also think that currently turbo diesels are more viable then hybrids (although diesel-based hybrids would be best). They should also keep investing in their AWD systems, as they will quickly lose their edge in that arena.

     

    Sly
  • rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    But that's expected as it always goes up in winter due to heating oil etc. Where I live it's cheaper than regular grade gasoline most of the year.

     

    Point taken about increased cost for new low sulfur requirements...we'll wait and see.

     

    Personally I like diesel for the torque on demand performance and longevity. To each his own.

     

    I'd say if it gets popular enough here, more stations will carry it. Also biodiesel has an promising future.

     

    Eric
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    For me the issue is how poorly the design elements join together. The whole look of the car gives the impression that the front fascia, body, and rear end were designed very separately and thrown together.

     

    Agreed. I'm hoping it will look better in person. Subies usually do.

     

    Bob
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    I think they will keep the SUV alternative & Cheap Performance niches.

     

    In addition to that, they will go for premium image.

     

    I think Nav & VDC are coming on most models ! Don't know about memory seats etc etc.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I am not sure about the picture -- that is clearly a new front fascia and rear fascia glued onto the current generation (02-06) body. I seriously doubt that Subaru is going to make major changes to the last year of this run. I would expect the current look to stick through spring 06 when the "new" 07 Impreza will debut.

     

    Craig
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Craig, I agree, but it won't be the first time Subaru has done dumb things.

     

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.andrewburt.co.uk/DealerData/newcars/impreza/WRXSTi-ext- ernal.jpg

     

    http://webpages.charter.net/drifter/Images/nasioc/facelift-sti-au- toexpress.jpg

     

    Check out the current STi photo, and this new image. They're one and the same, with the new image flopped and retouched.

     

    Geez... had me going for awhile...

     

    Bob
  • twrxtwrx Member Posts: 647
    I used to have a Subaru that fit into niche 1--a Forester.

    Then I had niche 2--WRX

     

    But my Legacy has the value as its biggest selling point. For $26,000 I got the nearest to a luxury car I have ever had (its the LTD with the heated leather, panoramic roof, etc.) and I also have the advantage of 30 mpg highway.

     

    After today's driving (after the 19" snowstorm) I still have some of niche 1 and with a decent wheel tire combo and 168 hp I still have some of the fun of niche 2.

     

    I wish there was a way that Subaru could advertise the Legacy (yes even the 2.5i like mine) as an Accord with an "attitude."
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There is an "*" by Subaru's name, indicating that there may be more announcements at the Detroit show.

     

    http://www.naias.com/main.asp?sectionID=22

     

    Bob
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "I wish there was a way that Subaru could advertise the Legacy (yes even the 2.5i like mine) as an Accord with an "attitude." "

     

    I wholeheartedly agree with this! My hope is that Subaru Marketing folks will use the recent Automobile Magazine victory (Best Family Car 2005) to the company's, and model's, advantage.

     

    ~alpha
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.subaru.co.jp/r1/special/index_f2.html

     

    Don't get thrown by the somewhat long pauses between segments. The R1 is to go on sale early in January.

     

    Geez... You can even get HIDs on the R1, and the instruments dance like the STi and Legacy/Outback turbos!

     

    Bob
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    wow she's not very pretty.

     

    might be uglier than the '02 WRX and that's challenging.

     

    ~c
  • beanboybeanboy Member Posts: 442
    My is that ugly. Park that beside a 2005 Legacy, and it doesn't even look like it came from the same company.

     

    Subaru, let Saab design the exterior and then rebadge it. Ugh.

     

    -B
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    The side view isn't too bad. A bit generic, but okay.

     

    The rear is a little vacant. The top half is good, but there's quite a bit of blank sheetmetal on the lower half.

     

    The front, the front, the front...

     

    Why couldn't they just use the same folks who designed the 05 Legacy to do the B9X?

     

    Ken
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I believe the designer of the Aztek / Rendezvous had a hand in this disaster.

     

    I've thought on it some more and it's clearly much uglier than a 2002 Impreza. It is hideous, whereas the bugeye was cutely odd.

     

    ~C
  • rob_mrob_m Member Posts: 820
    Doesn't even look like a Subaru. It's just plain ugly. Rob M.
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    Why get upset? They'll be changing the design next month anyway.

     

    The name changed this month so I'd assume a design change is in the works for next month. ;-)

     

    DaveM
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    At least the Aztec was cheap and had some nifty features for the outdoorsy crowd.
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    what is your problem folks ?

     

    it looks gorgeous !!!!!!!! i like every aspect of it. Maybe you are all too stuck with plain-old subaru designs.
    this is a great start for subaru to have a different image

     

    this will appeal to the mass.

     

    Compare this to pilot, MDX, lexus RX, murano, X5, i love this styling !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    can anyone tell me Lexus RX looks better than this ????
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    The Lexus RX looks better than this, anything looks better then this, except for the Aztec.
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    i completely disagree.

     

    lexus rx looks overly gaudy, if you know what i mean....

     

    this clearly looks bigger than MDX, not sure about the width.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    actually over on nabisco a few folks think that it's a toss-up with the Aztek. it might be uglier. :(

     

    ~c
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    i don;t know.

    maybe the conservative subaru customers need to change !!!! Subaru is changing its looks, image etc but the customers aren;t changing a bit !!!!

    imagine how radical the new BMW looks are. that's what i call ugly. I don;t want a boxy pilot or flimsy murano. This is very pleasant. Front is the best.

     

    To me it seems like subaru will lose some loyalists but gain new grounds.
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Guess we'll have to see it in person to really get the gist of it - in whatever final form it ends with.

     

    I'm not liking the new front at this point. Looks like a Sienna front.

     

    -Brian
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    You know a vehicle isn't good looking when people start to say "you need to see it in person". I remember hearing that line over and over with the '02 WRX.

     

    I don't mean to be harsh, but the front end kind of looked better with all that black plastic in the earlier spy photo.

     

    Ken
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Ugly doesn't begin to describe it! It's an ugly face, minivan body, high rear- there's not much you could do to it to make it worse!

     

    How could they make something classy like the Blitzen and this monstrosity?

     

    Ugh, take my name off the list of potential buyers!

     

    tom
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I can't believe all the hostility I'm reading here. I know I'm in a distinct minority here (as usual), but I like it a lot.

     

    Bob
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    Hey I just bought my first Suby 3 months ago and I certainly didn't buy it for its looks, although I think it looks OK. So I would hardly consider myself a conservative Subaru buyer, and I really hate the way this thing looks. It could be worst, but sure could be miles better!

     

    I think it is also overly conservative, except for the front end which tries to be distinctive and orginal but just plain doesn't work.

     

    Sly
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    whaaat? hostility is anger-- I'm not angry about this car at all. although I do recall someone flipping out a month or so ago when the name was announced along with the (again) expected $40k pricetag... hehe

     

    it's just... really ugly. BMW 1 series ugly. Aztek ugly.

     

    and I know you have a different eye for style than most of us, or at least certainly me, but the opinion seems to heavily trend negative at this point.

     

    ~Colin
  • rob_mrob_m Member Posts: 820
    I can't believe all the hostility I'm reading here

     

    Certainly not hostility Bob, but quick reaction from people who are atuned to their Subarus. Rob M.
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Bob, it's not hostility. It's more like. . . nausea. ;-)

     

    Sorry, it's just my opinion. It's a strong sense of opinion though. ;-)

     

    I agree with Sly, I didn't necesarilly buy my Subie for it's looks, but it's not a bad looking car either.

     

    Just hope there's still time to change the design! (along with the name!) ;-)

     

    tom
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I know. It will subside in due time.

     

    BTW, that may not be the actual "final" production version. See my comment over in the B9 thread.

     

    Bob
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    And to think I raised hell 'cause I thought the name of this rig was horrid. Looks like SoA put me in my place, and is giving me much more reason to shriek on about this vehicle.

     

    This is truly one anti-attractive SUV. I agree with the Sienna comments... though that design isnt nearly as busy or disjointed.

     

     
    HOWEVER, I dont feel all is lost... I do like the overall shape, and I find the rear a bit distinctive, if unadorned. The aggressive rubber and rim design are big pluses as well. BUT THAT NOSE! For me, there is something very classy, handsome and slick about the new Legacy that is completely missing from this supposedly upscale SUV.

     

    I sincerely hope this vehicle doesnt start at $37K as some have suggested. I'm afraid theres nothing the marketers could do to induce sales even slightly greater than the raging trickle that is the Baja.

     
     

    ~alpha
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    As many of you know I earn my living in "design." Yet, over the years, styling has played a really minor role in my automotive purchases. I'm far more interested in the vehicle as a whole. Unfortunately all we have to comment on now are these images, and some very basic and preliminary specs I posted the other day. Certainly we don't have a complete picture in which to comment on.

     

    Having said all that, I'm not at all discouraged by what I see here, even if it runs counter to 99% of those posting. I will say this: Subaru has one heck of a sales job in front of them, judging by all the postings here and elsewhere.

     

    Bob
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    I am with the majority here, that is just butt ugly.

     Unlike you Bob, a vehicle's looks has to get my mojo going somewhat. My GT wagon certainly could not be considered automotive art, but it is streets ahead of that rendition.

      Cheers Pat.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I won't buy a vehicle that I find unattractive, but styling is far less important to me than features and capability. That's all I'm saying.

     

    Bob
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