Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland

If that happens, my guess it will be an Acura, and not a Honda. Remember, there is no Acura name used in Japan, where this car is being shown. What we see as Acuras, are all sold in other markets as Hondas.

It's been long rumored that the Acura RL's SH-AWD will trickle down to lesser Acuras. I see this as a possible indication of waht the next TL or TSX might look like.

Even so, yes, they would certainly be competitors for Subaru.

Bob

kenoka

I really doubt that there will be much if any platform sharing between Subaru and Toyota. Toyota will have the same issues that GM did: the boxer and AWD need a dedicated platform. I do find it likely that Toyota will provide buying power for Subaru, as well as help them in quality control. Sourcing less expensive, but still high quality electronics, electrics, and interior pieces could allow Subaru to be more price competitive.

dino001

I think it is all about hybrids, nothing else, at least for now.

rsholland

I agree. Subaru has better hybrid batteries than Toyota, and Toyota has a big lead in hybrid technology.

Bob

ateixeira

Interesting to read their point of view. They want jobs, any way they may come. I like this part:

A Toyota-Fuji Heavy committee will be formed to determine what synergies might exist between those two companies

I'll be the first to volunteer for such a committee.

Sports 4 is a thinly veiled next-gen TSX. We knew SH-AWD would trickle down. Interestingly, the RL has only done so-so in the marketplace. While much better than its predecessor, the Lexus GS and Infiniti M are in higher demand.

Toyota owns so many suppliers in Japan that I'm sure Subarus already use some "Toyota" parts. That will probably only increase with time.

-juice

samiam_68

Toyota owns so many suppliers in Japan that I'm sure Subarus already use some "Toyota" parts. That will probably only increase with time.

Actually, one of Subaru's biggest suppliers is Mitsubishi (Electric). Just look at some of the labels under the hood of any late model Subie.

subearu

isn't the turbo a mitsu unit?

-Brian

rsholland

http://www.asahi.com/car/news/TKY200510060369.html

A translation from Asahi Shimbun (Japanese newspaper):

Toyota and FHI are studying the following plan:
• For its hybrid car that is under development, FHI will source major parts from Toyota.
• An engineer from FHI will take part in Toyota's production and development.
• In the future, the two companies would like to embark on jointly developing automobiles.
• Subaru cars will not be sold through Toyota dealerships.
• No executives from Toyota will be dispatched to FHI.
• If things move swiftly, a formal agreement may be signed by the end of this year.
• For the hybrid Legacy that is scheduled for release in 2007, FHI will discontinue sourcing main parts, such as electric motors, from private company development, and instead will source those parts from Toyota.
• The plan is to manufacture Toyota vehicles at the SIA plant, which currently has a low operating ratio.
• Toyota is experiencing favorable sales in North America, where local production cannot catch up to demand, and thus exports from Japan have increased.
• Toyota sees production, starting up a factory line, and development as the 3 areas that will be the driving force being the business tie-up.
• Toyota has been preparing itself for worldwide production increases, but lacks experienced engineers.
• Toyota management's anticipation: "We can apply top-level engineers from FHI to our global strategy"
• On the other hand, both companies will respect each other's management independence, including the brands.
• "Subaru" and "Toyota/Lexus" will be distinctly defined and joint sales will not be carried out.
• Toyota will avoid sending an executive to FHI
• There are no plans to mount FHI's unique horizontally opposed engine in any Toyota vehicles.
• In the future, however, using both companies' technology, a vehicle may be jointly developed, as increasing synergy is in the outlook.
• Toyota plans to acquire the 8.7% share in FHI on October 12.

Bob

rsholland

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103323

rochcom

GM spun off several of its supply divisions some years ago. Delco is now part of Delphi, a separate company that was formed so that parts could be marketed not only to GM, but also to other car companies, supposedly to reduce costs. What actually happened is that Delphi is in just as much trouble as GM, partially because GM began to use competitive bidding for parts and Delphi could not match some other suppliers. Now a corporate head chopper has been hired who will soon greatly downsize Delphi. Here in Rochester, NY, we are sweating out more layoffs. Pretty soon, VanBortel will have a tough time staying the number 1 USA Subaru dealer, because everyone here who could have afforded one will have been laid off and broke.

ateixeira

So SIA may use some of its slack left behind by Isuzu, since they haven't grown enough to make up for that. I bet the folks in Indiana are happy.

Jointly developed automobiles, but no boxers in Toyotas. That's right along with what I was mentioning about sharing basic platforms, but not powertrains.

So much for those 9-6x "spy shots", which were really chops anyway. I wonder if they were even spread out on purpose to hide this news?

-juice

lilbluewgn02

They filed for bankruptcy...........

ateixeira

Saw that - you wonder if GM spun them off just to be rid of a portion of the pensions they would owe.

-juice

robr2

Saw that - you wonder if GM spun them off just to be rid of a portion of the pensions they would owe

Doubt it - Delphi and Visteon (Ford) were spun off something like 5 years ago. It was done to raise cash and increase potential for more sales to other companies.

rochcom

NOW, they can get rid of the pension liability and lay off workers (while their top execs just received an increased severance package). Subaru is lucky to be rid of GM.

rsholland

I wonder if this Delphi bankruptcy will have any effect on Subaru? Does anyone know if any Subaru parts come from Delphi? I know GM able to help Subaru secure parts at cheaper prices, and I wonder if Delphi was part of that deal?

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/09/A01-341885.htm

Bob

ateixeira

Maybe in some of the purchasing contracts, i.e. for the leverage that GM had.

Still, they tend to squeeze suppliers, so a low price is not always the best thing. Look at the quality Nissan got from its suppliers when they cut margins down to the bone. It took 300+ engineers to realize the lowest bidder does not always make the best part.

-juice

rsholland

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/100905/bus_2005100906.shtml

rsholland

what will become of the Chevy Forester that's sold in India, now that the GM partnership is done?

Bob

once_for_all

"Chevy" + "Forester" in the same title? I can't tell you how that resonates.

John

rsholland

It's been on sale in India for several years, as there the Subaru brand is not sold there.

Bob

ateixeira

GM sells a rebadged Suzuki Grand Vitara there instead. Chevy Vitara?

-juice

mayberryguy

Yes Subaru gets some various electronics from Delphi. Subaru did get some price breaks and some advanced testing from the Delphi sourcing. That is the only possible worthwhile benefit from the GM side. I have heard that because of the bankruptcy filing, that current parts contracts Subaru has with Delphi are open to renegotiation.

sweet_subie

or toyota forester in india ? toyota has dealerships in india.
also, as i am from india. chevy forester is not a popular car as it is a very expensive one. so, they might just drop it.

bblacha

Subaru might continue the relationship (after the bankruptcy/restructuring.) Delphi is an independent company not strictly tied to GM. My 02 Accord had Delphi stickers on a few parts under the hood.

rsholland

The UK is getting a less radical looking STI called the Spec D. It comes with fog lights, the WRX rear deck wing (still has the upper rear window wing), and silver wheels with Subaru center cap badge (not the BBS one). The interior will get leather and maybe even NAVI! The engine also gets tweaked by Prodrive.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/60924/new_scooby_dresses_down.html

I wish we had that choice here too, as it is much more understated looking.

Bob

njswamplands

i loved the toned down wing and wheels and the 0-60 in 4.5

sweet_subie

http://subaru.com.au/promotions/?promoid=246

rsholland

Yes and no. It is "tuned" by STI, which is not the same as being a Legacy STI. It's not like what the Impreza WRX-STI is to the WRX. It's more a "tweaked" GT, not unlike our GT Spec B. Yes, it has more horsepower than the Aussie GT, but I believe it is still a 2.0 (and not a 2.5) engine.

Bob

sweet_subie

Subaru's H6 & GTs, XTs have very disappointing actual mileage. everywhere i am reading from customer reviews saying they only 15-16mpg on h6 & turbos.

see consumer reports on B9 T, it says B9 gives dismal 16mpg. hard to believe 3.0l engine is only this efficient. look at MDX ratings even at 3.5l displacement.

i wonder what subaru is going to do for future ? any thoughts ?

rsholland

B9 poor mileage is pretty easy to explain: Very simply it's a (relatively) small engine trying to move a (relatively) heavy vehicle. Small engines that have to "work hard" often get worse gas mileage than "lazy" larger engines that don't have to work so hard. That's why big old-fashioned OHV V8s often get pretty good gas mileage, as they are loafing most of the time, as opposed to screeming small high-tech engines.

Bob

c_hunter

I have a hard time believing those numbers. Even with a lot of city driving, I still get over 20mpg in my OB XT (not saying that is great, because I would like more, but it's better than 15-16).

Often times, when we see people complaining about poor mileage, you follow up and find out that they have a 1 mile commute, or make a lot of short trips, do stop and go, drive very fast on the highway, etc, etc... It doesn't take very many high fuel consumption scenarios to drag the average mpg down.

What Subaru can do for the future is what they have been doing all along -- offer models and trim levels with the more fuel efficient normally aspirated H4 engines that do get good gas mileage. Customers have a choice, and nobody is forcing them to buy the H6 or XT models. I should add that customers have been asking for more power for years, so they have that option now too. With that comes a tradeoff.

Until Subaru offers a hybrid in a vehicle like the Tribeca, I would not expect power and efficiency in the same package.

I am not sure what MDX ratings you refer to, but when I was shopping for an MDX, it was rated about 17mpg city.

Craig

njswamplands

people do lots of different types of driving. some make lots of short hops, others hit the highway for long periods. i would like to see the epa exercise a vehicle in many different conditions to help get a better grasp on what that vehicle does in reality. but reality offers so many variables it would be hard to come up with a list that would even apply to me. i mean the truth table is huge.

once_for_all

njswamplands

kens

I don't think I've ever seen that low a mileage on my GT even with pure city driving. Actually, for a 250HP engine with a slushbox, I'm pretty happy with the mileage I get with my Legacy GT wagon. With 80/20 (highway/city) and fairly spirited driving (ie. always in Sport mode, highway crusing at 80mph, winding it up on the on-ramps) I get about 23mpg. If I go easy on the gas or do mostly highway, I can hit 25mpg fairly easily.

Perhaps a low pressure turbo on the H6 would allow the engine to work more efficiently in the Tribeca application.

Ken

sweet_subie

this is the best post i have seen so far !

sweet_subie

i am getting 16mpg on my OB XT. i will drive at ease & see if it makes a difference

jeffmc

I love it, swampy. You managed to communicate without using a single word. That's a truly impressive feat on a forum.

njswamplands

saedave

From a news item on the Tokyo show:

Subaru-maker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd.'s B5-TPH concept car is a design study in next-generation crossovers. The hybrid

powertrain uses a lithium ion battery co-developed with electronics maker NEC Corp. that can last 15 years

That fifteen years compares to a supposed Eight years for the Prius battery..

c_hunter

That's definitely low. I would say you must either have a lot of short trips / city driving, or are going too fast on the highway. I noticed a huge difference in MPG between 65mph and 75mph, which adds up on a long trip. I think the turbo must be boosting at the higher speeds. Drop it down to the 65mph speed limit (which is difficult on the local roads here) and the mpg is much better.

CRaig

ateixeira

Check out the Tribeca thread - more than half of the mileage reports are above 20 mpg. So the median is above 20, much better than what CR reported. CR did some towing, and that just kills your mileage.

For instance, my Forester averages 25.1 mpg, but while towing I got 17.3mpg on a tankfull. Depending on how much time they spent towing, that could have lowered their average significantly.

In the 4 days that I had the Tribeca, I averaged 20.4mpg according to the trip computer, and actually slightly better when I calculated actual fuel used at the pump and miles traveled. 21.3 seems to ring a bell. I drove to work (city commute, DC) and then to the beach (mixed highway).

-juice

sweet_subie

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=107584

ateixeira

Now the question is...what model?

And then the follow-up question - would Subaru use the platform for its own model?

The xA and xB might not have enough engine once you added AWD. A tC would fill a coupe void in the Subaru lineup, if they wanted to build more of those.

Actually, my favorite Scion was the concept they had at NY last year, supposedly the successor to the xB but with a bigger, 2.4l engine.

-juice

rangner

It might work, but they could have trouble adapting the transverse layout to the symmetrical, as did saab.

I see more electronic toy/research sharing going on between these companies rather than mixing models.

Eric

ateixeira

You may be right. Lexus has a good NAV system and that rear-view camera some Tribeca intenders have asked for.

-juice

lark6

I was part of several small focus groups brought into Philadelphia by a market research firm retained by SoA. Two-hour session, 8 participants (5 male, 3 female) plus the moderator and a cameraman (it was recorded on videotape). Six of the 8 were repeat Subaru owners.

The initial portion of the session (maybe 30 minutes max) was spent in group discussion of the brand perception generally; why you bought/are a repeat buyer; others' perception of you and the car. The bulk of the session was spent discussing and analyzing potential "rewards programs" SoA is apparently considering for current owners and repeat/long-time "loyal" owners.

Some of the program highlights might include offering "points" for various items such as new or certified used vehicle purchase, parts/service purchase, purchase of items from business partners (e.g. L.L. Bean clothing or equipment) or referrals. The accrued "points" could be used then for future purchases of vehicles, parts/service, or business partners' products. Sort of like the Chase MC program but without requiring a credit card. There was a lot of discussion of fine print, e.g. that "points" might only be allowed to pay for a certain percentage (<100%) of a parts/service pruchase (unlike Chase MC bucks), not a good thing IMO. I was explicit in wanting points and Chase MC bucks to be applied to purchase and dealer installation of SPT/STi parts, which would be fully warranted by SoA.

A second program, "by invitation only," would reward Subaru "brand advocates" by providing them early access to venues (e.g. VIP auto shows), events, new products and information. The notion is for SoA to "harness the most vocal ownership group" of all auto makes (quotes the moderator's, not mine). Free advertising for SoA? Sure, but again some incentives might be in place like those already listed, plus others like potential first crack at ordering/reserving new or limited edition models (e.g. Legacy Spec B, WRX STi Spec whatever). Some liked this but again wanted more detail and increased access. I along with several others stated that early VIP access to a car show didn't mean much unless we were actually allowed to test the vehicles. I was explicit in stating that testing should include more than tire kicking and closed-course drives - a real test IMO would include a circuit under real-world conditions.

I suspect there are several people here and on other boards who are already beneficiaries of the second program, even though it's not formally acknowledged as existing within SoA.

In general my group's response was lukewarm. Most of us wanted more details and fine print/exceptions before being convinced of the viability of the programs.

I also suspect more of this information will become public as more research is performed. Even more suspicion: I imagine some of the people who were in the sessions this weekend will read this post.

Ed

(edit: Funny things are going on with my paragraph formatting that I cannot seem to fix properly. Sorry.)

ateixeira

Very interesting. Indeed it sounds like they are expanding what they have already been doing by inviting me and Bob to premiere events.

If you ask me, it has worked. Just look at the activity in the threads when we've gone. They always jump up into the top 10 topics on Edmunds.

There was a big group for the Legacy premiere, but a smaller one for the Tribeca. Much smaller, I think it was about 12 for the Leg and then only about 4 for the 'beca. A focus group should be bigger.

I also like the idea of the rewards program. It would benefit a lot of Subaru Crew members here. Plenty.

-juice

alpha01

Indeed, I read your post AND was part of one of the focus groups- the 10:30 AM Sunday session. Most of my experience exactly echoes yours, except toward the end of the 'Rewards Program' explanation, my blood pressure reached nearly astronimical levels due to one participant who consistently attempted to dominate even the HOST. Said person went as far as saying that having 'Brand Ambassadors' of Subaru who would receive perks for making successful customer referals... is akin to 'whoring yourself out for the company'. Oh, good grief, I thought, as Charlie Brown starting fuming in my head

Honestly, I was surprised the degree of blind faith and sheer enthusiasm people have in this company. Its intoxicating and contagious, a bit cult-like and somewhat of a harrowing suspension of faith. 6 of the 8 in our group seemed never to have considered any other brand for their purchase with some having been Subaru owners for long than my life (24yrs). And therein lies the challenge for Subaru... getting new customers to come on board and stay on board.... should be very interesting marketing times for SoA, and it will certainly be interesting to see how the Toyota stake purchase affects things...

I digress. Overall, it was a very nice experience, one that I would happily repeat.

One thing about the '06 models- I am so supremely jealous that SoA is offering the Legacy 2.5i SE- I would have LOVED a moonroof and power drivers seat for just $300 more. Oh well, I suppose thats the cost of impatience. :shades: The other thing- I would appreciate Subaru re-rating their output figures, to facilitate more direct comparisons between competitors.

Joe