Subaru Crew - Future Models II

jeffmc

Haven't seen this posted here, so... the WRC concept from the Frankfurt auto show yesterday, which should give us a strong indicator of the upcoming Impreza STI's looks:

ateixeira

Might want to re-size that, I think it's wider than Edmunds allows.

Any how, that front fender totally makes the car. Love it.

jeffmc

"Might want to re-size that, I think it's wider than Edmunds allows."

I know, I know... it's not my fault! Tell it to Subaru, they're the ones who're making the STI wider... a WRX photo would've fit, but this new, wider model just doesn't fit on the screen anymore. :P

(actually, I didn't take the time to resize and then re-host the photo. Perhaps in a couple hours, when I get a few extra minutes, if the mods will be patient with me.)

ateixeira

245 vs. 205 tires will do that to ya!

paisan

I'm running stock EVO tires on my LGT. 235-45-17 v. 215-45-17 which are stock on it. You can almost always go wider than stock

-mike

aaykay

You can go wider than stock but we have to be careful about rubbing and such, along with appropriately pairing the wheel offset and width, with the tire.

You simply cannot put 235 wide tires with a 45 aspect ratio, on the 7" wide rims....those are sub-optimal, even though you may be able to "make it fit". Also, Subarus perform best with large offsets in the 50+ range. Put on a 235 wide tire on a 7" wide rim and you are asking for trouble. Put on a 235 wide tire on an 8" wide rim and you should be fine - as long as - the rim/wheel offset is high enough and the bolt pattern is 5x100. Without a high enough wheel offset, appropriate for a Subaru, you will rub, especially with such wide tires and a full load and/or when turning aggressively.

The 05+ STI is the only Subaru that does not come with 5x100 bolt pattern and thus its brakes or wheels or hubs or suspension components cannot be interchanged with any other Subaru, including other Imprezas like the regular WRX or the Legacy GT.

So all of the above have to be done very carefully and is simply not a matter of slapping on a wide set of tires on whatever rims you choose.

paisan

Agreed. Actually the STi uses the same wheel offset and lug pattern as the tribecca and the SVX. They needed the more robust bearings from the SVX so they took the whole hub assembly.

I'm running 235-45-17s on 7.5" wide rims. I'm not positive of the offset but they are Rota, Subaru specific rims. So far even under extreme over-load situations, no rubbing.

Unfortunately I blew one after about 200 miles so tomorrow I'm replacing the one I slapped on there (some goodyear crap from walmart in a completely different size due to being away from home when I wrecked the tire)

I'll finally have 4 matching good-sticking tires on the car and can give some feedback.

-mike

sweet_subie

i saw one pic opf legacy economatic in frankfurt show, can't find it again. does anyone know more about this ?

jeffmc

??Could this be a diesel CVT??

rsholland

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/3444

ateixeira

I think it's too soon to be a new Outback mule, isn't it? Brenda seems convinced it's a Forester.

Wow. That's a huge stretch. It's a Grand Forester, I guess. Something I've always wanted, but I wonder if it will lose the character of the original if they make it that big.

The wife will love it, though.

rsholland

Too soon to be an Outback mule? Not at all; even if these images are 6 months+ old. Also, 6-months ago, the '09 Forester would be well past the "mule" stage, and would be into testing final prototypes; not necessarily so for the Outback, which comes a year later.

Keep in mind that "mules" are usually very early prototypes, often cobbled together vehicles, like this image shows.

Bob

nippononly

Won't the Forester continue to share underpinnings with the Impreza then? This wheelbase seems much too long to be a next-gen Forester.

I thought the Outback was revised for the '04 MY? Wouldn't that mean we should be seeing another new model in a year to 18 months? I bet this is the next-gen Outback, and if that's the case I think it's a good idea to extend the wheelbase as this car indicates. Camry is 109" between the wheels, and the new Accord is even more.

ateixeira

In the past, yes, Subaru has based the Forester on the Impreza.

But there is a theory that the next Forester would be Tribeca-based, even get its looks from its big brother. One hint was that the Impreza got the Tribeca's rear suspension, not the Legacy's.

rsholland

The next all-new Outback and Legacy are due in MY 2010, and the Tribeca a year later. The Forester is due in MY 2009.

Bob

ateixeira

From the pics themselves, you can tell the Outback looks like it's sitting on stilts, i.e. it's unusually high even for an Outback.

That's what has me (and Brenda) thinking Forester.

samiam_68

That's an Outback, and it doesn't look much different than the current one.

ateixeira

Look closely, it sits very high. Slap on bigger wheels and tires and it would sit even higher still.

The sheetmetal is all hacked up so you can tell the length changed, too. Plus they measured the wheelbase.

samiam_68

The Forester always had a hint of an SUV to it, while an Outback was always a station wagon. This test mule definitely has a station wagon shape to it. All the proportions, roofline, front end, tail, spoiler, and even door handles are almost identical to the current Outback.

The 108 inch wheelbase makes sense - the next Outback will share the platform with the Tribeca.

The new Forester will not look anything like that. It better not, if it's going to compete with the likes of RAV and CRV.

xwesx

I agree. Unless the shell of the car was an Outback simply because less modification was required to stretch the platform, that cannot be a Forester unless Subaru wants its stiffest competition to come from itself!

I will wait for further developments before making a decision one way or another.

ateixeira

I agree it looks like a wagon, but that thing is a one-off that was chopped and hacked all over the place.

Automakers keep getting better at disguising their prototypes.

tifighter

Yeah, and Subaru is pretty good at not showing their cards until the very end; remember the newest Impreza? I agree that it is a Forester mule just using Outback bodywork. Pay no attention to the looks, but do pay attention to that wheelbase :surprise: Maybe someone will actually be able to sit in the back of one now!

tifighter

Hey, that was post 20000. Yay for me :P

paisan

Definitely Outback/legacy platform for MY10.

-mike

dstew1

That mule is too big to be the next gen Forester (I hope). It would make much more sense if it were the next outback/legacy platform, stretched to Tribeca-like dimensions.

I'm sticking with the assumption that the Forester will continue sharing its platform with the Impreza. If you read what current owners on this forum and others have to say about their wishes for the dimensions of the 09 Forry, most of us simply want more rear legroom, more shoulder room across, and maybe a flatter cargo floor - things easily gained by mirroring the modest growth of the 08 Impreza. In the end we still want a nimble, somewhat compact SUV/wagon. I can't believe Subaru would ignore such a simple upgrade in favor of a huge Forester that would canabalize Tribeca sales.

Doug

ateixeira

Good point, it would kill the Tribeca as that size, kill it dead.

robr2

I think it's the new Outback as well. My comments on the blog.

Good point, it would kill the Tribeca as that size, kill it dead.

Only if the new Outback went to a 7 seat configuration.

nippononly

I think juice meant a Forester that size would kill the Tribeca dead. The Tribeca needs no help on its way to the grave, it's doing a pretty good job all by itself!

The wb of the new Impreza is at what now, about 104"? That's a good size for a new Forester too, will finally give rear-seat passengers in that model a place to put their legs. I like the idea of the Forester continuing to be based on the Impreza.

Not to mention, all the "compact" crossovers on the market, especially RAV and CRV, are well on their way to "midsize", so it would be really nice for there to still be one genuinely compact choice.

aaykay

I agree with the others above, that it is an Outback mule, rather than a Forester mule. If the Forester were introduced as such (2 inches wider than the Outback and longer wheelbase), what is the point of the Outback ? I am betting this is the next Outback/Legacy.

ateixeira

Yep, I meant a Forester that size would cannibalize the Tribeca. They may as well drop the 5 passenger model entirely if the Forester grows that much.

sweet_subie

They should make,

increase forester to current OB size
keep forestor the same size in turbo models
increase OB to tribeca 5 seater size
increase Tribeca to CX-9 size

Then we are talking

ateixeira

Sounds like a plan to me.

jeffmc

"The Tribeca needs no help on its way to the grave, it's doing a pretty good job all by itself!"

Tribeca nearly beat Legacy in sales last month.

nippononly

Well there's a high bar to vault! :-P

jeffmc

I know, I know. All I'm sayin' is, Tribeca's no Baja.

ateixeira

Jeff made a good point, though, the 2008 models' sales have grown significantly. The tame re-styling is working.

nippononly

originally wanted 50K annual sales of the Tribeca, a modest goal in today's crossover-crazy market. Significant growth aside, when it begins to look like it might actually near 50K annual sales, that will be something worth talking about. Until then, I don't think it's much cause for celebration.

I noticed that the base rims for the Impreza have gone back to steelies with plastic wheel covers, mimicking the Outback line, with the '08 redo. That's not so great. :-(
Of course, a $16,995 base price is good for business - is that actually lower than the base '07 2.5i?

And the Outback Sport is once again only minimally differentiated from the Impreza 2.5i Premium - seems like you pay an extra $1000 for two-tone paint and 17" rims instead of 16s? I was hoping they would go further to differentiate the OBS from the other Imprezas this time.

jeffmc

Cars101 lists these things as standard on Outback Sport that aren't standard on Impreza Premium:
Dual mode heated front seats
Heated outside mirrors
Heated front wiper de-icer
Rear bumper underguard
Front bumper underguard
17" alloys
Cargo tie-down hooks
Cargo 12v power
Cargo tray
Roof rack cross bars
Upgraded fabric
...and of course some minor appearance pieces.

Doesn't seem too bad for $1000. *shrug*

ateixeira

I thought it was 40k.

Probably both, depends on the source.

I think it used to start at $17,995, but MSRP doesn't really mean that much.

The 2.5i Premium is arguably the best value in the 2008 Impreza lineup, though.

nippononly

in that case the Impreza Premium is up $500 in sticker over the '07, but with some new goodies that weren't standard before, so that IS the rippin' bargain of the Impreza line, I think. For $1500, the premium package is value-packed.

So what are we really getting for the extra $1000 for the OBS? 17s and heated seats. The rest of that frippery aint worth $50. And me personally, I wouldn't pay extra for heated seats. I find it interesting that the OBS SE they were selling at the end of the '07 model run had auto climate control and a 240-watt stereo with subwoofer, yet both are entirely unavailable for '08. Subaru's marketing and options choices always leave me confounded as to their logic.

The paper today in my area has a full-page ad with a whole bunch of juicy promo leases for Subaru. Base Imprezas are going for $179/month with $1500 due at signing. Seems like a steal considering it's a brand new model. I might have to go drive an '08 this weekend! :-)

tifighter

I don't know; I think a cold weather package, alloys, cross bars, etc. are pretty fair for $1k. The alloys on the OBS look about $1k better than those on the Impreza Premium . Shame about the two tone paint, though...

ateixeira

CCB Syndrome?

Premium packages are well priced. IMHO Subaru's "Limited" packages are the expensive ones, with $2500-plus price jumps. And if you want one of those items, you have to buy them all - together.

It's common to see bargain price value models at the end of a model run. Remember the Legacy SE? The Accord VP. They all do it.

samiam_68

I find it interesting that the OBS SE they were selling at the end of the '07 model run had auto climate control and a 240-watt stereo with subwoofer, yet both are entirely unavailable for '08.

Not having the auto climate control in a Subaru IS an added feature! The Auto-CC in these cars are a nightmare!

paisan

I have very good info that that mule is not in fact the new forester in any size shape or form.

-mike

jeffmc

Mike, can you confirm if it's a redesign of an existing model?

rblnr

I think it's not only the tame restyling of the Tribeca that have improved sales, but also much, much better advertising. The spots actually have coherent messages now and I think the environmental branding spots are a good idea that need to be given time to penetrate the public consciousness.

dino001

No more dust in the wind ...

I saw the Impreza commercials on TV this week (those with paper people). Nice visually, but no message. Perhaps on purpose...

ateixeira

The new ad is OK, but when she's shown in the 3rd row you actually see how tight it is back there. A little better, sure.

A 3rd issue - the new engine. That's a biggie, too.

paisan

I dunno if it's a re-design of an existing one but it's not the forester that's for sure.

My educated guess would be that it's the new Legacy/Outback for MY10.

If it does in fact come out larger and with an H6 turbo + MT then I will likely jump on a new one for sure.

-mike

dino001

If it does in fact come out larger and with an H6 turbo + MT then I will likely jump on a new one for sure.


I wouldn't count on it. What is their track record of MT with H6 in US? None - zip. My guess is if anything, manual will completely disappear from their Leg/Out lineup, or it will be left on the cheapest trim (starting price held down) - sort of like VWs Passat today (can't even get leather with their manual). Perhaps in second or third year they'll add a limited ed "Spec-B" type of trim with manual. But I'd love them prove me wrong.