Subaru Crew - Future Models II

bigelm

Well, that would be a breakthrough....

paisan

You and your "big" vehicles.

You really think a 5EAT will be the best tranny offered? If the rumored DSG for the STI is due by then, I thought maybe top-of-the-line Legacy may have it as well.

The info I have is:
H6 3.6, 305hp, 5eat
H4t 2.5, 275hp, 6mt
H4 2.5, 180-200hp, CVT

As for "big cars", this is a major reason that Subaru is losing loyal owners, because the back seat of their largest car, can't hold 2 or 3 adults comfortably. Hopefully that will be addressed in the 2010.

-mike

kurtamaxxxguy

One reason the '09 Forester has improved so dramatically is Subaru changed the front seats to allow rear passengers to slide their feet under the front seats.

Outbacks, by comparison, keep toes from going under the seats, which clobbers rear leg room and raises the legs off the front of the rear seat.
I have short legs but still found Outbacks' rear seat cramped because the feet had nowhere to go.

I hope Subaru is smart and rather than giving the new Outback a huge wheelbase and stretched length, they redesign the seats for better interior room useage.

Ironically, the Malibu Maxx, with 8" longer wheelbase than Forester, had the same problem as Outback on drivers side because of a stupid power seat motor placement. Result was the Maxx had little left rear seat passenger foot room.

volkov

Agree wholeheartedly on the leg/foot room issue. It's much worse for use here with kids in clunky snow boots half the year and was the deal killer for the Tribeca. Knees fit in the last row, the boots didn't. As an aside, we only have the manual seats available here yet. Are the power seats still roomy underneath do you know? Subjectively the second row room was fantastic in the Forester, even with front seats set back. The boys still fit in the back of the WRX, but the stains in the seatbacks do attest to the fact it is tight.

volkov

As for "big cars", this is a major reason that Subaru is losing loyal owners, because the back seat of their largest car, can't hold 2 or 3 adults comfortably. Hopefully that will be addressed in the 2010.

Actually I think that Subaru is going to be in trouble because they lack a true small car anymore. Looking at the vehicles on my dealers lot, the Impreza is the "smaller" car, although when it comes to fuel efficiency and price it gets its tail handed to it by Civics or Carollas which could be its competition if folks were ambivalent about AWD. As it is now, their niche is as a car based alternative to the Cute-ute segment where they fare very well. Unfortunately, that niche is liable to shrink as gas prices increase.
The new Imprezas have sold very well here, but given $2k more now buys a Forester which gets the same gas mileage and offers more amenities and much more room, one has to wonder if that will change. Subie already produces these vehicles with smaller more efficient engines for other markets, they may want to consider offering those in NA as gas prices sky-rocket. Not getting the chance to "enjoy" my WRX anymore, I was considering replacing it with the new n/a Impreza. Given above factors, I'm not sure why I would beyond the enjoyment of the driving dynamics. Even more weird is that EPA gives same fuel efficiency for the n/a versus the 2.5T with the A4!!

ateixeira

How about if they don't step up and go to competition?

Overall Impreza sales are up, though, not down.

The competition is coming to them.

Question is - is the competition the Legacy?

ateixeira

they lack a true small car

This is true. In fact all their vehicles are still bunched up together too closely.

The Impreza isn't small/efficient enough to compete at the entry level, and it's nearly the size of a Legacy.

The Forester is nearly the size of a Tribeca.

I'm sure they'll fix this in 2010, but the Outback should be V70 sized (i.e. big wagon), and the Tribeca should be 200" or so, with an adult sized 3rd row, to compete with the newer crossovers.

kurtamaxxxguy

There is a fair bit of room under the Forester driver power and passenger manual seats.
Only cavet is to avoid kicking the power cables that go up from midway beneath the seats into lower seat cushions (motor/control power wires for driver seat, airbag sensor wires for passenger front seat).

orangelebaron

My take is that Subaru uses the same people that design their engines to layout the passenger compartment to their cars.

They really need to hire someone who knows how to design a comfortable interior where people can find places to put their feet and legs. Perhaps the Subaru people don't have feet or legs.

I recently purchased a 2000 Volvo V70. It is basically the same size as my 2005 Outback, but the layout is like night and day. In the Volvo, you can stretch your legs. You don't sit with your knees in the air in the back seat or the front seat as in the Subaru. The firewall is too close on the passenger side of the Subaru... something I could never understand. Subaru does not offer height adjustment on the passenger side even if you get the most expensive model.
They want to be "premium", but first they have to figure out that premium usually also means comfortable.

jeffmc

"Question is - is the competition the Legacy?"

Apparently not. Legacy's sales numbers have been very strong the last couple months... up over 30% in April.

ateixeira

Yeah, I saw that.

All I can say is WOW.

I'm happy to be completely wrong. Forester sales up 49%, Legacy sales up 30+ %. Impreza and Tribeca sales also both up.

No cannibalization at all. They seem to be doing the opposite - attracting showroom traffic and helping other models out.

samiam_68

Agree 100%. Subaru interior comfort is very sub-par. You forgot to mention the poor HVAC.

volkov

Have you sat in the new Forester? To me there was an immediate recognition that it was a step up from the current Leg/OB interior.

ateixeira

It's nicer than the Impreza too, in particular the door panels. Check out the padded elbow rests.

paisan

Subaru interior comfort is very sub-par. You forgot to mention the poor HVAC.

My 05 LGT HVAC works flawlessly in NYC hazy hot and humid summers. As for comfort, I'm 300lbs and it's not exactly a caddy but it's comfy enough for me.

-mike

rsholland

Strange...

The '09 Legacy GT manual is the only Legacy and Outback that does not come with VDC. Why?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22177690&postcount=1

Bob

ateixeira

Speculation, but maybe they thought that buyer did not want electro-nannies?

I want VDC, don't get me wrong, but some old school enthusiasts don't.

rsholland

Then why is it on the even more performance-oriented Spec.B?

Bob

ateixeira

Dunno. Maybe at that higher price they see it as a must-have.

nippononly

Count me out, until the government makes it mandatory. I'd rather save the $$.

I see from the linked chart that they will have green Legacys again - that makes a refreshing change. And what's this I see? The SE will be available with a manual? Isn't that a change? I thought the SE was automatic-only. I'm glad they will offer a stick. :-)

dino001

One word - cheapskates.

paisan

Then why is it on the even more performance-oriented Spec.B?

You answered your own question, they want people to upgrade to the Spec B for the VDC.

As for the 09 Model Year, we all know it's kinda a non-issue as it's really just a place holder til the 2010 Legacy and Outbacks debut.

VDC is also found on the STi model, so as for people above saying "I don't want it because it's not sporty" I disagree. I also disagree in real world racing situations where VDC is a HUGE advantage as is ABS.

-mike

rsholland

Well the fact of the matter is VDC (stability control) will be on ALL cars in a few years, as the government will require it. I forget what year it in which it's required, but it's coming up soon I believe.

Bob

paisan

Well the fact of the matter is VDC (stability control) will be on ALL cars in a few years, as the government will require it. I forget what year it in which it's required, but it's coming up soon I believe.

Yup. I'm a firm believer in it, as well as ABS, which is contrary to a lot of "performance" drivers.

-mike

jeffmc

Subaru's VDC can always be turned off by any performance enthusiasts who wish to do so, so the only disadvantage should be the add'l cost.

dino001

Formula One used traction control and all other types of electronic nannies as late as last year - now banned. Not to make drivers safer, but to make them go faster through corners. If it was good for Schumacher, it's probably good for a Joe Schmo-macher, too It's all about the calibration.

orangelebaron

Yes... I sat in the new Forester... it is better... but... still no cigar.
I sat in the passenger seat of the new Forester and felt like I was in a hole... no height adjustment and my feet could not fit under the dash. Back seat... still could be more comfortable. Drivers seat... at least... was very good. They put a flip down luch tray in the back... but it doesn't lay flat... so things will roll off it...?

Went over to the new Ford Edge (Subaru and Ford dealer)... what a difference.
Passenger seats and positioning much more comfortable.. not sitting in a hole.
and the interior was a little nicer to look at also.

I'll say it again... Subaru is not trying hard enough.

paisan

And you get the great Ford long-term reliability, so at least when you are stuck with a mechanical failure you can sit comfortably and listen to the great stereo

Hee hee.

-mike

nippononly

That's not very nice. Does Subaru get a pass on getting the details right just because they have higher reliability than other automakers? The competition is pretty fierce out there....

Now I am not sure I would put the Forester up against the Edge, which is bigger and more expensive. I think perhaps the more appropriate Ford competition would be the Escape.

paisan

Oh the escape is great! Haaaa. We just got one at work and a co-worker returned one on a lease with 26k miles and it had mechanical failures and rode like it had 150k miles on it out the wazoo. My point being that if you like RELIABILITY then you may want a Subaru over a Ford. There are compromises in everything, especially car buying. Price/performance, Price/reliability, price/comfort, etc. Just have to choose what you want.

-mike

ateixeira

That's correct, the Escape is the Forester's competition, and if you compare those I think you'll agree the Forester is a lot nicer.

I actually checked our a Mariner Hybrid and that interior is just not acceptable at that price tag ($30 grand). At $20 grand it's barely acceptable.

Do you realize the Ford Edge is about half a ton heavier than the Forester?

Heck, it's 148 pounds heavier than the Tribeca!

nippononly

Yes, among their crossovers, Ford and GM now seem to be in a race to see who can produce the heaviest vehicles, with the 3-ton threshhold about to be crossed and then the SKY'S THE LIMIT! :sick:

Now that Forester got bigger (along with RAV and CRV, vs their progenitors), I kinda hope Subaru will think about introducing a new "cute ute" that's smaller. I think they could afford to have crossovers in 3 sizes in this market. Especially if all three had at least one fuel-saver powertrain available.

volkov

Well they do really in that the Impreza competes directly with the true cute-utes, but probably garners more share simply because it is more car-like. I've said before though, it needs a more economical engine option.

ateixeira

They have a 155hp or so 2.0l in Japan, just bring that.

volkov

Exactly, in fact there are 3 engine options in Aus iirc including that one. 150hp in the base Impreza would be more than enough.

cptplt

I special ordered an 08 Outback Ltd with PZEV in August 07! the dealer just doesn't want to get you one.

volkov

We are in Canada, my friend, the ways of FHI are even more wierd here. We are getting a single trim level with PZEV credentials in sedan or wagon Legacy or OB version and not available until next month. There are no declared plans for a Forester or Impreza version to be made available.

rsholland

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/31

kurtamaxxxguy

I wonder how this new, larger Subaru platform will impact the Tribeca?

rsholland

Not at all if they aren't sold in the same markets, but we won't know that for a while.

If they do sell them together—which is highly likely, I suspect (actually, I'm sure!) the Tribeca will get larger, so that it won't step on the Exiga's toes.

Bob

ateixeira

Remember, the last Exiga concept was just that, a concept, and merely hinted at what the next Outback could look like.

Truth is, the production Outback didn't get many cues from the Exiga at all.

Having said that, I think this time will be different. I bet they're much closer.

nippononly

So what's the size of the Exiga relative to a Mazda5? Is it about the same, or is it significantly bigger?

ateixeira

Looks a lot longer.

It's probably Dodge Journey-sized.

rsholland

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/57

bigelm

^ I like it...

kurtamaxxxguy

Looks like a grown up Forester. ;-)

ateixeira

Makes sense as an Outback replacement that doesn't overlap with the Legacy.

Bring back the Legacy wagon as well.

saedave

Bring back the Legacy wagon as well.


Isn't the Impreza hatch close enough.............and much cheaper at that?

dino001

Impreza hatch is not a surrogate of Legacy Wagon. Not even close:
1. interior
2. exterior
3. equipment
4. size of the trunk

jay_24

Don't like it.... second row, middle seat is not much of a seat and mostly an arm rest. With a family of 5 the third row is nice, but its a must to use just the second row and keep the third row stowed for cargo room. Folding just one third row seat and then having a kid sit next to a pile of cargo is less than safe.

Please... A nice second row that seats three with comfort.