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Rendezvous Suspension Upgrades

hawaiianguyhawaiianguy Posts: 86
edited March 2014 in Buick
Recently, the rendezvous won the most dangerous vehicle award, i think in part due to probablity of rollovers.

See : http://www.forbes.com/2007/07/26/car...?partner=msnbc

After reading the above article, I wonder if anyone else has successfully done anything to upgrade the supsension on this car to make it more rollover proof.

I would like to consider changing to sport shocks, upgrading sway bars and bushings if possible, as well as perhaps maybe wider tires and stiffer/lower springs.

The problem is, after searching the internet high and low, I don't think anyone makes any suspension upgrades for our cars. I did a search and the best I can find is KYB GR-2 (factory stiffness) struts for the front and KYB Gas-adjust (sport/firm shock) for the rear. I was hoping to find a matching set of sport shocks, but even unable to do that. I am also unable to find any upgrades for sway bars, bushings or springs.

This is very frustrating because after having worked on a project sports car, I found that sporty options such as shocks/struts and swaybars were plentiful for that car. Even for a "volvo" therre is a company called IPD that sells performance suspension components such as beefier sway bars, springs and struts/shocks...

Anyone have any suggestions or ideas where I might be able to find these items?? It seems they are hard, if not impossible to find.
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Comments

  • A really good independent local mechanic should be able to make any modifications you want and not with just out of the box parts. I have such a guy who is honest and capable of ANYTHING mechanical. If the work is better done at a dealer, for any reason, he will tell me. When a Jaguar engine was "eating my lunch" he relpaced it with a Corvette engine which made it the most trouble free and powerful large car I have ever had. Good luck in your search. Les
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
    .

    Upgrading this, upgrading that, sure seems like a lot of work and expense - to create a tighter suspension on the RDV factory suspension.

    Is the factory suspension "too soft" (which creates greater risk of roll-overs)? If so, might want to install some air bags. With air bags, you load them up between 5 to 40 lbs - for your wanted ride comfort.

    If Air bags aren't for you... Might want to investigate the Timbren SES product. It's like an air bag without inner air. Some view them as a rubber stopper. If wondering, I have Timbrens on the rear of my 2001 AWD Safari Van (which is also a heavy hauler & Tow Vehicle). Best rear suspension product I've every used. Timbrens is an "install it and leave it" product and removes suspension depth. Great for front mounted Snow Plows or for trailer's with more then 300 lbs of tonque weight. Or, if you load down the rear cargo area of your vehicle (and don't pull a trailer at all). For more info on Timbrens (which are rubber inserts inside the factory coil springs on the RDV factory rear suspension parts), surf: (for FWD RDV models) http://www.timbren.com/timbren-application-guides/application-pdfs/GMRAZT.pdf & (for AWD RDV models) http://www.timbren.com/timbren-application-guides/application-pdfs/GMRREN.pdf

    For suspension improvement on the front, install HD shocks. I hear Monroe makes great HD front shocks. Thus, keeping the front suspension "same depth" but increasing "its time to reach its full depth". Thus, dramatic reduction of the risk of roll-overs (regardless of vehicle model).

    Always remember that roll-overs are from 3 conditions. Suspension depth, time to reach that depth and depth re-bound (on its opposite high side). Timbrens are rubber and have very little "rebound" recovery reaction - unlike steel based HD coil spring replacements. Remove depth on its outer corner side, reduce time to reach full depth on its outer corner and reduce upward rebound on its opposite inner corner side, and the risk of roll-over is dramtically reduced. Same holds true for a fast boat on the water doing a tight sharp corner. Remove depth, remove time to reach full depth and remove opposite side "kick ups". Same holds true for a vehicle performing sharp corners on dry land.

    Hope this helps as well...

    .
  • spike99, thanks for the info! I think when you refer to monroe HD shocks you are referring to the "reflex" shocks that lockout? I didn't know they existed until you mentioned them. My plan was to go with a sportier shock. I'm not sure if they make these for my vehicle.

    Thanks for the info. I will try some kind of bump stop for the rear and see if it helps as well as try to find some lockout shocks for the front.

    I wonder why if it was so simple as using a different type of strut, why the mfg didn't do so in the first place??
  • Just checked their online catalog, Monroe only makes a sensatrac monotube shock, no HD or reflex shock. Looks like I am out of luck for the fronts. Can anyone suggest an alternate mfg that makes HD struts? Unfortunately I don't think I will be able to find any.

    Do I have any other options for the front suspension to help decrease roll over risk?
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
    .

    When the shocks on my Tow Vehicle 2001 AWD Safari Van goes, I'm going to replace with Blistien shocks. These HD shocks are made for towing (for weight support) and they have "reduced" time to full depth valving. I've been told the Blistien shocks are few notches above Monroe's best HD shocks.

    Many Towing / Heavy cargo folks are installing the BILSTEIN brand shocks. For more details, surf: http://www.bilstein.com/tech.php If they make Bilstein shocks for your RDV year and model, might want to investigate this HD shock as well.

    As a side note... The RDV model is made as the "average" cross-over vehicle. A combination of a car and a van. Thus, 4 doors with lots of inner cargo, and FWD for better rain / snow road conditions. To me, the RDV isn't made as a Tow Vehicle or Heavy Hauler Vehicle - on a consistant basis. And it wasn't made to drive like a "zip zip" Sports car either. With this in mind, do drive the RDV for what it was made for. A "put / put" smooth riding family style mini-SUV (cross over vehicle). If you want a zip / zip mini-SUV with lower "roll over" risk ratings, there are other mini-SUVs that are better built. Better built for folks with "zip zip" driving style. If you want to improve the RDV's factory suspension, Timbren add-on and HD shock replacements are a good upgrade. Well worth doing - to make its factory suspension of the RDV even better. But if you want more of a "zip zip" mini-SUV with much tighter suspension (with lower risk of roll over ratings), you might want to investigate other brands of mini-SUVs. Something that can take much more road abuse / aggresive driving style. Something to think about...

    Hope this helps as well...

    .
  • Hey spike99, again, helps a lot. I'm used to driving agressively so I don't see any harm in having an SUV that can handle agressive driving. Besides, even if you drive passively, my concern is that some idiot who is driving along side you on the freeway may try to swerve into you or maybe someone who didn't tie down their load may throw a ladder on the road in front of you when you are going 50mph. The faster you travel in the RDV the more the rollover risk is multiplied! So if you had to suddenly swerve to avoid another vehicle or object on the freeway, you might be setting you up yourself for a rollover. My logic is that even if you don't drive "zip-zip" as you put it, some emergency may necessitate a very controlled manuver, and w/ the soft rdv suspension, that may end up in a rollover in that case. I see a sporty suspension equivalent to more safety in an emergency manuver. So yes, although i do realize it was made like a minivan with 4 doors, I think I would like to add better handling to it to improve it's capability to respond in the event of a high speed emergency manuver. Not that I would want to necessarily drive agressively, but if worse came to worse and I had to to avoid a danger, I wouldn't want to be a rollover casualty because my suspension was too soft...
  • i would like to point out that i think at this point in time no one makes hd shocks for rdz. i have bilstiens on my 84 porsche carrera, and yes they are nice shocks. because of that i already tried to look up a listing for the bilstiens on the rdz, no luck, none made. again, if anyone knows of any other options and/or stiffer, safer replacements for the front struts, please let me know!!
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
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    If you are serious about finding a better front shock, I would email the folks at Monroe, Blistien and other well known shocks designers. Ask what they recommend as a HD shock replacement for your RDV. I would even send an email inquire to Timbren Corporation - asking if they have Timbren SES for the front on the RDV as well. Timbrens do remove suspension depth - which also reduces risk of roll-overs.

    Like many companies, these suspension improvement companies don't always list their every product and certainly don't list their "in beta testing" products. Send each of them an email and who knows, they might come back with... "oh ya - we do have something for you... Here's the details.." reply. Or if enough RVD owners send emails to each company, their R&D teams will start working on RDV improvement products.

    Hope this helps as well...

    As a side note... I don't put too much faith in roll-over ratings on some vehicles. Yes, the RDV can flip over. So can a Sunfire and so can my Safari van. Every vehicle has a roll-over rating. Like many, I don't aggressively look for RDV suspension improvements. My limited dollars going into keeping our RDV "on the road" - due to its lack of reliability technical design. Anyway... A few years ago, I do remember the "big fuss" about roll-over ratings on 15 passenger vans. The videos were so powerfull, DOT / DMV were going to remove all 15 passenger extended vans off the road. Some "average guy" installed HD shocks and other low cost "off the shelf" suspension improvements (to remove factory depth, time to full suspension depth on the sharp corners and to remove opposite side "kick back" behavior) and the 15 passenger van suddenly had a better rating then a normal F-150 Pickup. All because a low cost / off the shelf suspension improvements was used. Something that 15 seat passenger van designers missed themselves. So yes. I see your point about looking for low cost "off the shelf" suspension improvement products for the RDV. Something that is also worth doing (on any brand of vehicle)....

    .
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    the factory suspension "too soft" ... might want to install some air bags

    I thought the point of air bag suspensions was to soften the ride. Can you pressure them up enough to get the stiffness you want?

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • Spike99. I saw the Timbren product. About how much did it cost you for yours? And did you install yours yourself? I can see where this would come in handy, as I did install an aftermarket hitch for a hitch mounted bike rack, and with the 2 bikes on there, the rear suspension will bottom out and hit a speed bump when I go over it with the bikes. Not only will this product help with that, but it might help with the handling as well..

    I wanted to ask how easy is it to install the Timbren product? I've replaced struts and shocks on my other car before, but I have not yet removed the springs on the rdv. I looked at it, looks like if you remove the shock, the lower arm will release down far enough to remove the spring. Is this correct? Obviously I suppose you would have to keep some tension on the arm so it doesnt snap down when you remove the shock then slowly release it. Is this all I need to do to remove the spring? Is it fairly a simple matter of just removing the shock and slowly releasing the arm down till the spring is uncompressed? Is putting it back pretty easy as well??

    As far as rollover, I agree that every car is prone to rollover, yet I can tell a big difference when driving my sports car vs. the rdv, that the rdv with the higher center of gravity and soft suspension is much much more likely to flip. So, I'd like to make it just a tad safer. Minimal cost for a big safety improvement is the goal here. And you can't deny that these cars are terrrible in that situation. What I like about SUV's is the ride height puts you above the bumper imapact zone of a normal sedan (side impact), however because of the higher ride height you are now more prone to rollver. I guess you can't have it all, but I'd like to try...

    host - i think the airbags he's talking about go inside the spring and prevent the car from bottoming out. they dont' look like they would make the suspension softer. see jc whitney online for an example.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    i think the airbags he's talking about go inside the spring and prevent the car from bottoming out

    Ah, yes! That would do it. Thanks for the insight.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • When you are going 50mph on the freeway, just pretend something got thrown on the road in front of you and you had to swerve to avoid it. Gently try to swerve the rdv at that speed and I swear, you'll get the feeling like you are about to rollover. I did this test after reading the article about the rdv being the most dangerous vehicle, and I wasn't happy with the results. Luckily, we don't encounter situations like these every day. But, you never know, someday it might happen. And it is not unfathomable that this situation could occur to anyone, a mom with kids for example, and not just someone who wants to drive it like a sports car.

    I'd just like to add an added margin of safety in such a situation by improving the suspension and handling a bit.
  • spike99, one other question. when you say HD shocks, what does HD stand for? Bilstien is the only one who seems to use the term "HD" and I suppose this means heavy duty? Wouldn't this mean any sport shock? On the other hand, monroe sells the "reflex" brand and they say it is good for vehicles with "high center of gravity like suv's", it can supposedly sense and adjust to acceleration. But monroe does not call this "HD". I'm not sure if the term "HD" is applicable across all brands. I know in general gas and monotube are supposedly more durable than other types of shocks. When you say HD do you mean just "sport" as opposed to comfort shocks? For example, KYB sells the gas-adjust model, which is monotube and stiffer and sportier than their GR-2 which is a "factory replacement" and more comfort than the gas-adjust. It is also twin tube. I would think any "sport" shock is going to be better than a comfort shock, however, the monroe "reflex" does specifically say it is designed to counter handling problems with vehicles that have a high center of gravity like an SUV.

    Thanks in advance.
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
    .

    HD means Heavy Duty. Which means "better then stock" shocks. Some folks call their "better then stock" shocks Sports tuned and others call them HD shocks. In general terms, HD means "better then stock" replacement shocks - regardless of the sub name a shock factory calls them.

    .
  • If that is what you meant by "HD shocks" then it's the same thing I meant by "sport shocks". That's why I was looking to replace the shocks with KYB. So really, what you said and suggested was no differnt than my idea to replace all 4 shocks with HD or "sport" shocks. That was the minimum I was going to do. Unfortunately KYB sells sport or HD shocks for the rear on the RDV, but the front is only stock.

    Thank you however for the suggestion about the timbren. If that costs a lot less than the replacement shocks (about $80 each or $190 total), then it sounds like a better option.

    Another question though. On the tibren, what would happen if you are using these and your shocks are worn? You think it would still be better to have the timbren instead of HD shocks for the rear? Or maybe I should install both. I don't think I need new shocks now, so the timbren is probably okay for now. But when the rear shocks do need to be replaced, I am going to also go with an HD shock.
  • on an interesting note a rep from timbren just returned my email asking how much their product was, saying "We do not sell coil inserts for Buick Rendezvous. Our product is a suspension enhancement system for pickups, vans and heavy duty vehicles." this is strange, becausee their application guide shows they do.
  • after checking the cost, the timbren product is actually MORE EXPENSIVE than a pair of kyb gas adjust (sport) shocks for the rear. I think i'd probably rather get the shocks than the timbren. I was quoted about $180 for the timbren, and I know the shocks are maybe $150 a pair or so plus shipping. to be fair, it is probably around the same price with shipping, but sport shocks seem like they would do more for the suspension than timbrens which only limit the travel.... so if i had to choose, i'd say the shocks...
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
    .

    WOW hawaiianguy.

    You sure are "very aggressive" in your research and trying to narrow down the best suspension upgrade for you - for your RDV. And, you might be over analyzing the words of one's feedback. Upgrading a vehicle's stock suspension isn't a perfect science. There's now "first time" right or wrong way of doing it. Always keep this in mind - when doing your raw research.

    To me, shocks reduce the "time to full suspension depth" compression - by the use of valving. Compression and rebound valving is used in either gas or oil based shocks. Every vehicle shock desigh (or selection of simular vehicle design) is based on "average cost" shocks that are made for "average expected" load. Or, in some cases, based on "average exepcted" driving style. A mini-SUV has might softer shocks when compared to a 2 door Ford Mustang.

    If one needs or want to reduce the "time to full suspension compression" depth (which creates a firmer ride comfort), they would replace their facory shocks. Some supsension shops call their shocks "sports tuned" and some call theirs version "heavy load tuned". And at the detailed level, both versons of shocks have different valving. But the main point is, their "specialized" built shock is much better then a factory stock shock.

    Ok - what's the big deal about shocks and how does it apply to reduction in roll-overs? More "firmer" shocks means a more firmer ride. With more firmer shocks and you take a sudden "emergency avoidence" corner, its time to full compression depth is more time (when compared to a stock shock). Thus, a roll over at xx ground speed on the same sudden U-turn won't happen until 120 degrees into the turn - instead of stock shocks at 90 degree. I'm using these numbers as examples but hopefully, you can see its improvement in degrees. If you "jerk away" from a fast hiway road just doing fast speed, the firmer shocks will reduce the risk of roll over. Especially if turning a sudden under 110 degree turn. For unloading driving comfort, the "top end" of the shock is often firmer. Some folks don't like a firmer "unloaded" ride.

    Timbrens (which are like air bags without inner air), you remove its "bottom end" suspension depth. With Timbrens, the ride comfort at near empty vehicle is unchanged. When more load on the vehicle (like a front mounted snow plow) or on the rear (for heavy hauler / Tow Vehicle) or a very tight suddent U-turn, the vehicle's factory "top suspension" goes down, and its Timbrems start working. The Timbrens are soft rubber. The more "pressed down", the more they work. And yes, they work with factory shocks. But the best part is, the Timbrens (and air bags - which you can adjust ride comfort) reduce roll-overs. They reduce roll overs because they reduce the inner corner of the vehicle going down (which keeps its top end gravity lower). The less the corner of the vehicle goes down (like in a right corner skid on dry pavement), the less risk of roll-over.

    If one has limited dollars to spend, which would I buy??? This is a hard quesiton to answer... If you like the upper suspension comfort and want to reduce suspension depth, then go with Timbrens. Or, go with air bags (which are adjustable). If you feel the upper part of your vehicle is too mushy, install air bags (add more air in them) or install better shocks. If you feel your vehicle has too much "little jitter" on its upper end, then install "better then factory" shocks. And if your vehicle's front or rear bounces more then 2 times (Mechanic's manual shock test), then replace its shocks. If you feel your upper riding comfort is ok and you want to reduce suspension depth, then install Timbrens or Air bags (with adjusted amount of air in them).

    When it comes to using 3rd party suspension upgrades, there's no perfect selection. Some like adding stronger HD replacement Coils, some like adding +1 leaf (which my vehicle also has), some like Timbrens (which my vehicle has), some like Air bags and some like HD shocks. Each vehicle and the driver's wants / needs is different.

    If wondering... I've tried many different suspension improvements (re: Timbrens, air shocks, +1 leaf spring, Torsion bar adjustments and HD shocks) on my current Tow Vehicle. For a picture, surf: http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/j_papple/detail?.dir=1815&.dnm=5860re2.jpg&.src- =ph & http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/j_papple/detail?.dir=1815&.dnm=af04.jpg&.src=ph-

    For my 2001 Safari Van Tow Vehicle, I'd install Timbrens in its rear and HD Shocks (like Blistien or Monroe;s best HD Shock) in its front. If my vehicle had too much suspension depth in the front, I'd install Timbrens on its front (and probably keep its factory shocks). Luckly, Timbrens for both front and rear are avaialable for my vehicle.

    I cannot tell you which suspension improvement for your RDV to get. Only you can make that choice. I can tell you my experiences with +1 leaf, Timbrens, Air Bags, Air Shocks (avoid them at all cost) and HD shocks on my Tow Vehicle. And if given a choise to do it again, which upgrade I'd only use (on the same vehicle) in the future.

    Hope this helps as well...

    .
  • spike99, FYI, i understood everything you said and more. I've been tuning my porsche for suspension with sway bars, stiffer springs and sport bilstiens, so yes, I already do know the effect these types of improvements have.

    what I did want to point out was that your original reply said it was a "waste of $" or "expensive" to be replacing things to upgrade suspension.

    all i wanted to point out is that I was quoted $230 for timbrens via email and $180 locally, and that in itself is MORE than replacement sport shocks.

    from what I gathered by your initial comment (my idea to upgrade the suspension parts was expensive, and you spend your dollars to keep it on the road), i thought you were suggesting a much more cost effective solution. When I priced it out I was suprised to find that in fact your solution is even more expensive.

    so, no, i do not think I am over-analyzing. I just took what you said at face value and when I priced out your suggestions they were just as expensive, if not more expensive. Also, I took a look at some airbag kits and they are several hundred dollars if not more. Labor to remove springs to install kits such as these would also be costly. So my point here is I do not see how you claim that your suggestions are more cost effective than was my original solution to upgrade shocks on all 4 corners to stiffer than stock.

    your help is still appreciated though. thanks.
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
    .

    In your original post...

    "I would like to consider changing to sport shocks, upgrading sway bars and bushings if possible, as well as perhaps maybe wider tires and stiffer/lower springs. "

    To me, sure sounds like you originally wanted to install more then shocks. It sounds like you were originally thinking of installing stronger lower springs, wider tires, sway bars and bushings... Sounds like much more expensive upgrade then "replacing stock shocks".

    Have a good one...

    .
  • spike99,

    yes, you are correct, I did mention all those things, HOWEVER, I never said I was considering ALL those options AT THE SAME TIME.

    You are also taking the statements I made OUT OF CONTEXT. If you go on to read my post, you will see that I ALSO said:

    "The problem is, after searching the internet high and low, I don't think anyone makes any suspension upgrades for our cars. I did a search and the best I can find is KYB GR-2 (factory stiffness) struts for the front and KYB Gas-adjust (sport/firm shock) for the rear. I was hoping to find a matching set of sport shocks, but even unable to do that. I am also unable to find any upgrades for sway bars, bushings or springs."

    I merely listed ALL the things I could think of that might help improve the suspension, in hopes that someone might be able to lead me to the right sources to buy them at. But I never said I was dead set on doing them ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Besides, I already knew from my own reserach that the ONLY option (out of all those things I listed) were shocks/struts anyway, which I clearly explained in the post. And even then, struts are not made in a HD or stiffer version. So I already knew that most likely no one would be able to come up with a source for springs or sway bars, but I just asked for the hell of it anyway.

    I would think if you read my post in detail you would have understood that shocks/struts seemed like the ONLY viable option, and I was not able to find any of the other upgrades mentioned, even after looking...

    Needless to say, I was pretty exicited at your solution, I thought it was going to cost maybe $40 for the pair or so and I could save a bunch of $. I was in shock when I found out how much they are charging. Anyway, that's not your fault, but again, I assumed since you implied that your ideas were "cost effective", that the items you were suggesting would be costing a lot less...

    Another thing, you also did mention in your advice to use the timbrens "insead of" shocks or other things for the rear. If you compare timbrens to shocks, they do cost more. Adding a sway bar is a different item all together and will tie both sides of the suspension together. I don't think you can really compare sway bars to the timbrens, timbrens work slighlty differently, and so would increasing the spring rate. Anyway, this is a moot point because I don't think bigger sway bars or stifer springs are made for the rdv.

    Have a good one too!
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
    .

    In my current Tow Vehicle (Safari Van), I install Timbrens in its rear. It removed its suspension depth. Which is great for loading heavy cargo items and / or connecting a heavy tonque weight trailer. Yes. They cost more then HD shocks. HD shocks only reduce "ease of up/down" movement and NOT suspesnion depth. Timbrens or air bags remove "depth" - which eliminate rear sag. My goal on the rear of this vehicle is to remove its "depth". In the future, I plan to install HD shocks on the front of my van. This would eliminate "ease of movement" on its front. For this van and my driving usage, I'll probably leave its front suspesnion depth distance "as is".

    If you want to remove "depth" on the rear suspension of your RDV, then install Timbrens (yes, they do make Timbrens for the rear of the RDV) or install air bags. Each will remove suspesnion depth "in the rear" as well. And by removing depth, it also reduces risk of roll over - on any vehicle brand. Or, you can also remove its rear coils and replace with HD Coils. However... Coils are steel based on do create rebound in their opposite side corners - which can increase the risk of roll overs.

    Timbrens or air bags are more expensive then HD shock upgrades. But each product is made for different reasons. Shocks focus on changing "ease of up/down" movement", and the Timbrens / Air bags reduce is factory depth. Comparing these products side by side would be like comparing apples and oranges. Each product does a different job.

    You are right. Improving the front suspension of the RDV is NOT as easy as its rear. A few susgestions are to remove its front coils and replace with HD (stronger) rated coils. This will create a firmer suspension but being a steel solution, it will create upward rebound on the opposite corner. Which does increase its risk of roll over as well. Therefore, one must install HD shocks with better upward force valving. Thus, reduce or eliminate its upward rebound action - from using HD coil springs. Thus, double upgrades on the RDV's front end. (load support and reduce of upward "ease of movement" due to steel HD Coil upgrade solution).

    Upgrading suspensions (on any brand of vehicle) can also create a domino effect. When doing your research, do keep this "domino upgrade" effect and all involved costs under considerations.

    When does one stop upgrade the suspension of the stock RDV??? Only you can answer that. I can state that some like a "firm ride" and some like a "soft ride". If you want a firm ride on a vehicle that is built with a soft ride, perhaps a different vehicle model comes to mind. Something with tighter / firmer suspension, something with stronger wheel bearings and something with lower height gravity. Turning a "general pupose" family focus mini-SUV like the RDV model into a tight suspension feeling of a sports car (or like a heavy hauling tow vehicle) is going to be expensive. And, may need multiple part upgrades.

    For your wanted upgrade needs, do you want to remove "depth" or remove ease of up/down movement? Or, do you want to remove both? This is the first quesitons to ask.

    Good luck in your custom designing and parts shopping...

    .
  • spike99,

    "Turning a "general pupose" family focus mini-SUV like the RDV model into a tight suspension feeling of a sports car (or like a heavy hauling tow vehicle) is going to be expensive. And, may need multiple part upgrades. "

    you are right, a new vehicle would be better. but in terms of cost effectiveness, a new vehicle is a bad decision. The rdv looses over $10,000 in the 1st 2 years in depreciation alone. So getting rid of it means you ate all that for nothing.

    IF I had known the suspension wasn't that great I may have chosen another vehicle. The problem is at the time I bought the car there were no "most dangerous vehicle" articles on the rdv. Not only that, when I went for my test drive at the dealer, I didn't necessarily perform any emergency manuvers at high speed. Therefore, due to my limited info, I was misinformed.

    You are right, if I had the knowledge I had now when I bought the car, I may have very well chosen a different, more sportier model.

    However, due to cost and economy, it would seem much more efficent to upgrade the suspension I have on the car now, that eat $10k in depreciation and get a new car. Besides at 40k, shocks will have to be replaced soon anyway. Monroe recommends replacement at 50 or 60k as preventative maintenance to save tires, etc. So anyway, I think since it is maintenance item, I would have had to spend that $ anyway.

    Which is more cost effective in your view? Buying a new car or making minimal upgrades to your current vehicle's suspension?

    Again, thanks for all your info...
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
    .

    I'm still puzzled while the RDV model does have the "most dangerious" rating for roll overs. Sorry... but your above link never worked for my PC system.

    Anyway.... I find it very surprising that a little Tracker, Suzuki Sidekick, Santa Fe or other skinny wheel base mini-SUV wheel base vehicle have a "less risk" roll over rating - when compared to the RDV model. Wonder if those vehicles were tested against the RDV as well?

    If the RDV was that bad for roll overs, I'm sure the DMV or MTO folks would immediately pulling them "off the road". Or, my insurance company would dramatcially raise its rates, or Buick would be demanded to perform a mass re-call. Re-call to upgrade the suspensions (to reduce roll overs) in all Buick RDV models.

    Regardless, sounds like you like a "more firm" then stock suspension on your vehicles. To tell you the truth, I like a "firmer then factory" ride comfort as well. Especially for my heavy then normal cargo weights. Even my wife's 2003 FWD RDV with 3 loaded hockey bags and 4 adults has a too soft of suspension. I like a "firmer ride" in the RDV model as well. But for me and my wife's RDV, I'll drive it "as is" for the next 3 years, then "trade her in". Upgrading its suspension for 3 years of usage isn't woth it - for me.

    Good luck in your RDV Suspension upgrades...

    .
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
    .

    For my wife's 2003 RDV, its Roll Over rating is 3 stars out of 5. For more details, surf contents of "NHTSA ROLLOVER RESISTANCE RATING" within:

    http://www.lotpro.com/cars/2003/buick/rendezvous/safety/

    To me, 3 out of 5 for a family focus mini-SUV that's driving 90% of the time in our little village (doing under 30 mph) is "good enough". Probably explains why my yearly insurance on my wife's 2003 FWD RDV is actually "less" then our previous 2001 2 door FWD SunFire car.

    As explained above, its factory suspension for ride comfort and roll over risk is "good enough" for me (as well).

    Hopefully, 3 out of 5 stars is the same rating that's in your "most dangerious for roll over" reports as well...

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  • you are right, the link is no longer working. try these:

    http://www.forbes.com/2007/07/26/cars-dangerous-twenty-forbeslife-cx_bh_0726cars- _slide_2.html?partner=msnbc

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20041166/

    btw, i've cut and pasted the contents of the article below. KEEP IN MIND that the authors of this article did not use conventioan NHSTA ratings, they went by their own guidelines and standards which they felt better reflected safety. So it's just another thing to look at.

    And also again, I never said I was going to spend tons of $ to turn my minivan platform vehicle into a sports car. Replacing shocks/struts will cost me $600 parts and labor at the most. If I keep the car over 60k it is recommended to replace shocks/struts as part of "maintenance" anyway, so no $ is really even lost...

    FROM THE ARTICLE: "The consensus among several safety experts we asked is that the best way to predict how dangerous or safe a new vehicle will be comes from looking at the way it's configured, particularly with respect to several important factors — side-impact protection, stability control and rollover risk — that together span a wide range in real-world safety.

    That's what we did. Topping the list of the least safe: the Buick Rendezvous, the Ford Ranger/Mazda B-Series, the Nissan Frontier, the Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner and the Toyota Yaris.

    While generally heavier SUVs and pickups are at an advantage in multi-vehicle accidents, they've been shown to be at quite a disadvantage in single-vehicle accidents (such as when the driver falls asleep, or loses control swerving around a deer), which comprise 43 percent of fatal accidents.

    In this type of accident, SUVs and pickups have more than double the chance of rolling over, according to NHTSA data. This risk relates closely to overall federal fatality data, showing that SUVs and pickups generally have a higher fatality rate than cars of a similar weight.

    Electronic stability control systems, which smartly apply the brakes on one or more of the wheels as best to avoid loss of vehicle control in an extreme maneuver, have been offered for more than a decade in some luxury and high-performance vehicles, but the technology has been trickling down to most mainline brands over the past several model years.

    NHTSA has called it the most significant development since the seatbelt, and the federal government has mandated electronic stability control, but not until the 2012 model year. NHTSA estimates that the stability-control mandate will prevent up to 9,600 fatalities and 238,000 injuries annually, at an average cost of $111 per vehicle in addition to the cost of anti-lock brakes, which most vehicles already offer as standard equipment or as an option."

    note - rdv apparently does not have stability control..
  • from the first link:

    "The minivan-based Rendezvous helped bring new customers to Buick dealerships, thanks to the Tiger Woods ad campaign behind it. But after the 2007 model year, the Rendezvous, with its abysmal three-star (out of five) NHTSA frontal impact rating, is history, to be replaced by the 2008 Buick Enclave, a crossover SUV with a full roster of standard safety equipment."
  • if you read the article carefully, their "criteria" was 1. side impact protection, 2. rollover rating and 3. stabilitrack.

    this must be at least in part, the reason it earned the most dangerous vehicle award. it must lack all 3 of these things.
  • btw, i forgot to mention, while i think i don't think i could cost effectively fix the side impact or lack of stabilitrack problem, the rollover issue is more easily fixed and also can be done quite cost effectively (changing shocks) in comparsion.
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
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    Before fixing your RDV to try and lower its roll over "risk rating", may I suggest you contact the author. Ask them to clearly identify if their "roll over" ratings are based on sudden "U-turns" (for hiway "road junk" avoidance), based on getting hit from the side, from too fast speed around a sharp corner, or for other reasons. For example, when the vehicle skids sideways on dry pavement, its front tires dig in and "over she goes". This is caused from tires and too high of upper gravity problem. Based on their detailed feedback, you can then decide to upgrade the front suspension of your RDV, decide to upgrade the rear suspesnion of your RDV, or if their "reason for roll over" can never be changed. For example, no amount of suspension upgrades will stop a vehicle from rolling over - if it gets hit from the side with a higher then normal bumper (on the other vehicle).

    I read your artical several times (thanks for posting it) and still, I don't see "any meat" (sort of speaking) in their statements. At first, I read it has a rating of 3 stars out of 5 but then, they rate it the worst of the 20 other vehicles. If having 3 is bad, it sounds like they dramatically lowered the minimum bar (sort of speaking). Within their article, I read lots of high level and emotional words but to me, there's no exact "detailed reasons" why "they feel" the RDV has dangerious roll over risk. And since my yearly insurance on the RDV is less then my previous sports car, my insurance company isn't too worried about RDV roll overs either. Or, they'd be sending me all sorts of warning notices and my RDV's insurance would be triple its current rate (due to its extreme risk).

    As explained above, I do feel the RDV suspension (on my wife's 2003 FWD model) can be a little more firmer. Especially when its rear cargo is under heavy load. It could even use better HD shocks - to "tighter her up" on the sharp corners. But I really don't believe the RDV model have dramatic roll over risks (from "too soft" of factory suspension).

    Seriously... Do check with the author. Would be nice to read "their meat" (sort of speaking) - to better understand why they rated the RDV with such high roll over risk (yet still gave it 3 out of 5 stars in the roll over section).

    .
  • like I said, I am pretty meticulosu about maintenance.. i do regular oil changes, air filters, brakes, trans fluid/filter, fuel filter etc. and righ now i only have 38k. the thing is, again, i see shocks as a "maintenance" item that should be done around 60k anyway. right now they don't even make hd shocks for the front (no mfg does, from what i can tell). therefore, right now my only option is to get hd for the rear.

    anyway, i don't see it as "fixing" the rdv. if i have to replace the shocks/struts ANYWAY (because like tires, they are a maintenance item), when I DO have to replace them, I am going to upgrade them at the same time. Hopefully by 60k or 70k someome will have come out w/ hd for the front and rear.

    likewise, I feel the integrity tires's aren't the greatest and they are noisy. my wear bars are starting to show. my plan is to get michelin hydro edge to replace them soon. of course, another brand of tire would do, even the goodyear comfortread which seems to have better noise ratings.

    in any case, i dont' see it that i would be "fixing" my rdv when upgrading shocks/struts. like the tires, I would be uprgrading when I had to replace them anyway. It's like switching over to synthetic oil (which I have) when you have to change your oil anyway.

    From my point of view, I wouldn't need to contact the author, because I'm not really wasting any $. I'm just upgrading a maintenance item when the time comes to replace it...
  • by the way, i'm not being overly analyitcal of their article. i understand they are not specific. but they are a respected magazine and they seem to have qualified "experts" which make a lot of sense about the things they say in their article. everyone knows that suv's have high rollover rates and also it may be obvious that the rdv does not have side impact airbags nor stabilitrac. so i am taking their word for it to a certain point. the fact that rdv is "#1" as being most dangerous on their list, is pretty bad. I mean, it might not be so bad being #15 or #20, but #1??

    Anyway, even if their rating system is slightly off, if rdv is #1, that means that something is still wrong in the vehicle. Even if giving it some leeway, it would probably still end up in the top 20.

    Of course, you have to get into a bad accident for it to count. Either a bad multi vehicle or single vehicle crash. Not everyone is going to get into such a crash in the rdv.

    Anyway, I see no harm and also no additional cost ot upgrading maintenance items (such as tires and shocks/struts) with a view to upgradinng and increasing safety, when they have to be replaced anyway. Why would I just replace them with the oem factory replacement when I have to spend the labor and costs anyway? I may not be able to "fix" all the problems, but I sure can make a little difference by doing so. Maybe my car with better tires and shocks would be #20 instead of a #1.....
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
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    Interesting reading...

    If I posted an article stating a certain brand of vehicle has safey concerns (yet, rate it at 3 out of 5 and at the same time & splat on front page its the worst roll over vehicle on the road), you'd think someone would question the details.

    Since I know the article lacks "meat of any kind", I dismiss it. Another artical from a person who's never crawled under a vehicle or never held an air bag in their hand. Some folks seems to grasp the article and go into a frency. Frency as if that ariticle was the truth and no other "lack of" backup data matters. Read between their lines. They rate it 3 out of 5 (in their own words) then they rate RDV the worst roller over vehicle. Sorry, one can't have it both ways!!! If that's so, give it a 5 out of 5, and all insurance companies, DMV and DOTs would go into a frency as well. Frency to demand recalls or take the vehicle off the road.

    The article (in your first post) isn't about maintenance. It isn't about how to look for worn out suspension parts and it isn't about suggestiong ALL owners should remove (or firm up) its factory suspension. This article is about getting people "into a frenzie" - to do something with their RDVs. For some, they read the statement "RDV is worst for roll overs" and they immeaitely want to sell their RDV. For others, they want to perform mass suspension upgrades. Not only suspension upgrades but "aggressive upgrades". Yet, this article does NOT explain where to upgrade - to reduce roll overs.

    If you really want to upgrade the suspension on your RDV (because its "your want" and NOT someone else driving the need) then by all means, go for it. Its your RDV.. Take your RDV to many different suspension shops, get them to "analyze it out" and get them to do the work. They are specialists and if you got the spare dollars, they will even remove the entire RDV chassis and place on a Race Car drive train. That's what suspension specialists do. They take factory and make them even better.

    I do warn many that if you read any artical (like the one above) stating that RDV is the worst for roll overs, do ask why (the detailed whys), and do ask how they can prove their statements. In the article, I don't "see their meat". Sorry but I really don't see proof (direct and indirect proof) behind their statements. Thus, I ain't buying the contents in their statements.

    BTW: If my RDV was the worst on the market for roll overs, my insurace rate would be triple, and both DMV/DOTs would be yanking it off the road. My RDV insuracne is actually "less" then my previous sports car. Go Figure!!!!

    Hope this helps as well...


    .
  • You can dismiss the article, that's up to you. I myself am taking it with a grain of salt. Like anything else, it may not be 100% correct, but there may be "some" truth to it.

    I already had in mind the idea to upgrade the shocks/struts before the article came out. So it only reinforced my own opinion that the suspension was a bit soft. I personally like cars that handle better.

    I THINK YOU ARE MISSING MY POINT. I am not trying to "MAKEOVER" my suspension. ALL I WANT TO DO is find heavy duty shocks for all 4 corners and that is not going to cost me more than $600 to install. If I could find them, I would install them today. IF not, I am going to wait until 60 or 70k when they need to be replaced anywyay, and hope someone makes them by then.

    You can bash the article all you want. If I was "scared" by the article I'd be selling my car. The article is NOT the reason I want to upgrade my suspension, it only confirmed my previous supspicions that the SUV's, vans and trucks in general may not be as safe (in fact the article says in a single car crash SUV's are worse, but better in multi-vehicle crash due to being bigger and heavier and more robust).

    I'm not saying everyone should sell their RDV, just saying the article "may" have some truth to it. By the same token, your idea to "completely dismiss" it seems a bit ignorant as well (no offense meant). Again, I am taking it with a grain of salt and honestly I think the truth lies somewhere in between your position and theirs.
  • spike99spike99 Posts: 239
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    Every roll over stat has some truth to it. Heck. Even little go-kart that are 3" off the ground has a "roll over" number assigned to it as well.

    Declaring the RDV as a "3 out of 5", then stating its #1 worst vehicle for roll-over is a counter diction in itself. If its that bad, tag it as "5 out of 5". You keep missing my point.... And I'm sure the author of the article is as well. Were's the supporting truth in their "detailed" backup info. For example... Why isn't my RDV insurance triple its cost? Why isn't MTO/DMV pulling the RDV off the road - if the RDV is really "#1 for roll overs"??? No, I didn't miss the point at all. this article has more then a hole. It has a huge gap in it.

    Within your original posts, what is really driving you to upgrade the suspension in your RDV? Is it because of "oh - RDV design is the worst for roll overs. I believe them because they say so. Thus, what is the best suspension upgrade to use - instead of stock???". Re-read your initial post. What is really making you go into a frenzy to upgrade??? Sorry. I didn't miss the point at all...

    .
  • "Within your original posts, what is really driving you to upgrade the suspension in your RDV? Is it because of "oh - RDV design is the worst for roll overs. I believe them because they say so. Thus, what is the best suspension upgrade to use - instead of stock???". Re-read your initial post. What is really making you go into a frenzy to upgrade??? Sorry. I didn't miss the point at all... "

    Look, the article was cited to as just one source. Although I said I belive them somewhat, I never said that everything about it was true.

    I do agree that the suspension is a bit soft for my tastes. As are a lot of other cars out there. If this weren't the case there wouldn't be so much manufacturer's selling upgraded and beefy anti-sway bars for everything from volvo's to ford trucks.

    I think you are "exaggerrating" my position. I never said I was in a "frenzy" to upgrade. In fact, I have been thinking about upgrading probably ever since I have gotten my car. It is my normal practice to upgrade AS THINGS WEAR OUT, so for example, if I need to replace an oem clutch in my car, I will probalby opt for a heavy duty one instead. Same thing with shocks.

    I don't know where you got the idea that I was in a "frenzy" to upgrade. Again, I may have asked the question and asked about all the possible upgrades, but again, that does not mean I would have done them all or that I was in some kind of frenzy. I WAS JUST LOOKING FOR MORE OPTIONS, THAT'S ALL. JUST BECAUSE YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOUR "OPTIONS" ARE, OR YOU WANT TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF "OPTIONS" AVAILABLE TO YOU, DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE NECESSARILY GOING THROUGH WITH THOSE OPTIONS.

    Again, I think you misunderstood my original post and interpreted it as if I was in some kind of "frenzy" to upgrade, when in fact, all I was looking for was options. And yes, i did cite to the article because I also thought it was relevant to my original idea to upgrade anyway and provided somewhat of an additional supporting basis for my decision to do so, which PRECEEDED the article.
  • "Declaring the RDV as a "3 out of 5", then stating its #1 worst vehicle for roll-over is a counter diction in itself. "

    NOTE: You are the one who said the rdv is a 3 out of 5 for rollover. The rdv article online at the most says it is a 3 out of 5 for front crash testing. They (and I) never said the RDV is "#1 for rollover". All the article says is it the #1 most dangerous vehicles based on or the absence of, primarily 3 factors, 1) roll-over, 2)stabilitrack 3) side protection. Please get your facts straight. No one here, including me and the article, ever said the rdv was a #1 danger for rollover.

    "If its that bad, tag it as "5 out of 5"."

    NOTE: Again I believe you are mistaken here. The number of stars I belive equates to a postive rating. Therefore 5 out of 5 would be the best rating possible. Zero out of 5 would be the worst. I believe you have got it mixed up and the opposite of what it should be.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Maybe if y'all would spend less time playing he said, she said, we could kick around suspension upgrades. The bickering is getting old.

    btw, I think the car designers and engineers generally do a better job of designing shocks for a car than an aftermarket outfit. ;) Too many aftermarket companies seem to make a shock and then try to tweak it for every make/model on the road.
  • "btw, I think the car designers and engineers generally do a better job of designing shocks for a car than an aftermarket outfit"

    Host- I think even spike99 and I would agree (surprisng and amazing in itself) that (cost aside), some aftermarket items are MUCH better such as shocks. Case in point are bilstiens. They are way better designed and last 3 to 4 times longer than OEM. In fact when I bought mine for the porsche it had a lifetime warranty. I believe spike99 has some for his vehicles as well. So if you have the $$, you can get better by going aftermarket in some instances. But again, this is subject to debate and everyone has different views.

    As far as he said she said, I am not going to let someone mispreresent what I said or what the article said. Or if they are misunderstanding me or the article I cited to, I just want them to get their facts straight, that's all.

    Having said that I've ordered a set of rear kyb gasadjust shocks for about $80 each, so total of $160. Labor is free and provided by myself. KYB tells me they will NOT make any HD or sport for the front. Their gasadjust line (firm shocks) are made in shocks only and not struts. They are 20-30% firmer than stock. The gr-2's they sell for the front are about 10-15% firmer.

    I probably will replace my rears now and wait till 50 or 60k to replace the front with gr2's, unless some other manufacturer comes out with a stiffer strut for the rdv in that time...
  • Host - another point is that mfg's design shocks for the type of ride they envisioned. For example, on the RDV, their goal i was told was to imitate the luxury ride of one of their luxury sedans. And I think they've generally done a good job of that.

    HOWEVER, if someone who buys the rdv wants a different type of ride, for example, maybe a car with more sporty handling like a bmw, now they're stuck with what the factory designed and intended. If an individual has a different idea of what he wants, and he has aftermarket options available to him, now he can pick and choose and change the riding and handling characteristcs of the vehicle in order to suit HIS OWN INDIVIDUAL and particular tastes.

    The statement that oem generally does a better job of desinging seems a bit presumptuous. Because you then have the question "design for what"? If OEM wants to design for ride comfort and that is their goal, yes, they've done their job. But the purpose of aftermarket is to allow someone who has a DIFFERENT GOAL (such as willing to trade off some ride comfort for better handling) to be able to change the OEM's design to suit their needs.

    So although you can say OEM design stuff better, it's right as long as you understand that what OEM's goal or design intent may not be necessarily what everyone wants.

    It's like comparing a regular ice cream shop just gives you an ice cream cone, but someplace like coldstone gives you options and you can "make your own creation". The problem with OEM is many times out of the WIDE range of choices they settle into a very narrow goal of what they envision the car should be. It is NOT like a coldstone where they allow you to pick and choose what you want. You are stuck with it. Having aftermarket choices allows you to have more options.

    In fact, even better than that would be if the factory allowed you to "custom design" your ride and add heavy duty shocks and springs, swaybars, etc. and order your vehicle that way. If that was the case every one who wanted something different could get exactly what they wanted up front.

    But I think this only makes a difference to people who understand their cars really well. For the average joe who doesn't know anything about cars, they rather let the factory make the decision for them. Which is why people who want a plush ride would generally go to cadillac or buick or lexus, and someone who wants a sporty feel, yet still luxury, will choose BMW or Infinity instead.

    I'm more of the BMW or Infinity mindset, however, I liked the "pricing" of the buick, so if I can just change the characteristics of the buick a little to meeet my preferences, then why not? Every car can be changed in any way. You can take a buick and make it handle like a bmw if you want. It is just that as far as "OEM" design intent, buick is designed for comfort as opposed to BMW's being designed for sportiness in mind.

    I think you need to realize that aftermarket just opens up options for people to customize their car the way they want even though it may be different than what OEM intended.
  • I think this may clarify some of spike99's misconceptions....

    I think a really pertient point in what I said above is

    "I'm more of the BMW or Infinity mindset, however, I liked the "pricing" of the buick, so if I can just change the characteristics of the buick a little to meeet my preferences, then why not? Every car can be changed in any way. You can take a buick and make it handle like a bmw if you want. It is just that as far as "OEM" design intent, buick is designed for comfort as opposed to BMW's being designed for sportiness in mind."

    Okay, so yeah, cost aside, I probalby would have just bought a BMW X5 and I'd be a very happy camper. In fact, I like sportiness so logically I should go with BMW or Infinity SUV's right? Well, the problem is those cars cost a good $15 to $20 THOUSAND dollars more. So because of cost limitations, I did not choose those cars.

    All I'm saying is if I generall like the buick's size and shape and ability to carry cargo and people, but I want to make it handle a little better (more like bmw or infiity), then why not? It would only cost me $600 more as opposed to $15 or $20 THOUSAND dollars to buy a luxury sport suv vehicle.

    And again, this was the REASON for my original post. I was complaining about the LACK OF aftermarket options for the buick rdv (because I wanted to customize the rdv to suit my particular tastes, and did not just want to accept what the factory intended)....
  • my ideal SUV, cost aside, would be the Porsche Cayeene Turbo. But at $93,700 base price, it isn't going to happen anytime soon. If I was given the offer to trade my RDV for this car, I would do it in a heartbeat.

    if that doesn't give you an idea of the mindsent I'm coming from, I don't know what will.

    for all those that want luxury, love the plush and minvan like handling and power of the rdv, none of what I'm saying applies to them.

    were' talking about a very specific situation here where someone who likes sportiness and who's ideal car, cost aside is a porsche turbo suv, but can't afford it, and just wants to make their buick "a little more porsche like" in terms of better handling (and willing to give up ride comfort) at minimal cost...
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Some make/models do offer a "sport" mode. Often that just means a beefier swaybar (my minivan offered a sport model and about all they added was a swaybar).

    Anyway, the OEM car designers have all the tools at hand to design the shocks and other suspension components to work together and give you the best handling for that particular model.

    There's no way an aftermarket company can get access to all that information, much less can they afford to tweak all their product lines to individually fit each make/model.

    You may think the aftermarket shocks improve your ride, but you may just be putting Oreos on the springs when Hydrox would have been a much better choice.

    And you can't always believe the seat of your pants, especially after your seat has been lightened by a couple hundred dollars. :shades:

    Fun discussion and you do make a lot good points. In my case, there's no way my minivan is going to become a Bimmer, so I'm gonna settle for OEM stocks and avoid the generic Monroe ones when it's time to replace them.
  • haha..

    well, to tell you the truth, what got me all intent on upgrading the rdv (besides the article) was I recently went on a trip and had the good fortune to rent a 2008 saturn (gm) vue XR w/ only 35 miles! IT was a blast to drive compard to the RDV. It had Manual (like tiptronic) and it was VERY sporty. At for the price ($26k or so), it is very reasonable and not as expensive as the RDV. In fact, last week I even went down to the dealer to test drive one and see what they'd give me for the RDV, which of course was an insult. After driving it more I realized it was a little small compared to the RDV, and because of that, we decided against it. BUT the vue does have side impact and stabilitrac , I believe, and with the sportiness, I belive it is much safer. In my mind sportiness = safety when performing emergency manuvers.

    Anyway, like I said due to the small size it is not gonna happen. I like the RDV. Mine has electronic 2 driver memory (seats, mirror and radio settings) dual climate control, wood grain dash and leather wheel, leather, etc. Those are a lot of "luxury" features for a car in that price range. In fact, although it doesn't quite live up to the hype, GM supposedly marketed the RDV as a cheaper alternative to the Acura MDX (which in my opinion is MUCH MORE refined).

    In any case, yea, there are cheaper options out there, and sure, the VUE although more sporty, may not be a bimmer, but I can tell you driving it is NIGHT AND DAY compared to the rdv..

    I just wish my RDV would handle more like the VUE. I don't claim to want to transform it into a bimmer, I just want it to get closer to that point than it is now...

    If I could get the RDV to have a little more sportier feel, even if it was close to but not as good as the '08 VUE, I'd be pretty happy with it.... Besides the soft ride and "unsurefootedness" of the handling, the RDV has enough luxury features that I'm pretty happy with it when driving in a straight line or just cruising around. The only time I'm not so happy is if I want to do a little spirited driving in it.....

    You're right, maybe a factory tuned bimmer is better than someone trying to tweak the suspension on a RDV to feel better, but from my past experience "seat of the pants" expereince does count for something. After all, what is the driving experience but a purely subjective one? It's not like we go driving with accelerometers to determine what kind of g's we are pulling when doing a test drive. When someone drives a bimmer and is impressed with the way it handles spirited driving, that's purely "seat of the pants" and subjective. Besides, after previously owning a 1993 Volvo 850 glt and upgrading the sway bars, and shocks to bilstiens, I can say that suspension upgrades do affect the overall perception of safety and the way they car handles. It DOES make a difference, even though it may not be an purely "engineered" result that comes like it would designed by engineers at the factory...
  • "Some make/models do offer a "sport" mode. Often that just means a beefier swaybar (my minivan offered a sport model and about all they added was a swaybar)."

    If the RDV offered a sport mode, that would sovle my problem too. I could just by the beefier sway bar or upgraded shocks or springs from the factory and replace what I have on the car.

    Unfortunatley, I don't think RDV does offer such options. If I am mistaken, someone please correct me and I will ask the dealer to give me price/availablity on the parts...
  • I couldn't resist but make this one last comment. You said:

    "You may think the aftermarket shocks improve your ride, but you may just be putting Oreos on the springs when Hydrox would have been a much better choice."

    Who the hell engineers ice cream??? Haha. Taste is purely subjective. What tastes good to one person may taste crappy to someone else. If I like oreo and you like hydrox, who's to say I am right and you are wrong. We BOTH are right because what matters is what tastes good TO US!

    So just the fact that I want to make my car handle the way I WANT and I am basing that judgment on SEAT OF THE PANTS is not necessarily wrong! It may not be engineered, but like people liking certain colors etc., some people have different views when it comes to how a car should drive.

    If I tweak a car and get it to handle the way I want it to and the way I like it, WHO CARES if it is not an engineered result??

    It's like saying you're a master chef so you engineered your ice cream with hydrox and because of that it is better. Yet if you walk into any cold stone they don't tell you want is better, they let you make the choices. What tastes better is for YOU to decide...
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Yeah, but you notice how adding sprinkles can change the whole character of your dessert?

    Changing a spec'd component to your RDV, especially something to the suspension, can affect how the whole vehicle handles. You may wind up with something under-engineered for the car - probably won't be a safety issue (that rollover concern again), but you may not know until that 200 pound wild boar runs out from the culvert and you try to swerve and hit the ditch.

    Just food (or dessert :shades: ) for thought.
  • you also said:

    "Fun discussion and you do make a lot good points. In my case, there's no way my minivan is going to become a Bimmer, so I'm gonna settle for OEM stocks and avoid the generic Monroe ones when it's time to replace them."

    If cars are like ice cream, then you're a conformist. You take the decisions from the factory and you accept them as is rather than having your own idea of how something should be.

    There's nothign wrong with that. It's like going to cold stone and buying one of their "pre-designed" conoctions rather than experimenting on your own and coming up with your own creation.

    Or like hiring an interior desginer or artist to design something the way they think it should be done.

    I mean, that's all fine and dandy, but my point is just because someone is a professional artist or designer doesn't mean that everything they do is right.

    I mean, as an individual, you have the right to have your own views. And in my point of view, if cars are like ice cream, then you don't always have to accept the factory's version of the bannana split. With aftermarket options, you can create something that is unique and designed the way YOU want it, instead of just accepting the factory's values.

    If all choices in cars are purely subjective, then really, it just comes down to the factory engineer's choice over yours. Like Buick may be known as a luxury brand, so they are by default going to design their car with luxury in mind, not handling. So if you want to accept that choice, so be it. That's up to you. That's like saying, my fashion designer says I should wear this, and I trust her, so I'm wearing it.

    All I'm saying is that for people who know about cars, they're not necessarily going to let other people like the mfg call the shots. They have their own idea in mind and they are going to want to adjust things to what they want.

    Conformist OEM factory thinking is perfectly fine. But you have to realize it for what it is. It's just following the default brand and being loyal to the OEM design intent. I don't think there's anyting special about that. Anyone can be a follower.

    I would rather be an innovator or have some creativity to my way of doing things... But again, that's just my view...
  • "Yeah, but you notice how adding sprinkles can change the whole character of your dessert?

    Changing a spec'd component to your RDV, especially something to the suspension, can affect how the whole vehicle handles. You may wind up with something under-engineered for the car - probably won't be a safety issue (that rollover concern again), but you may not know until that 200 pound wild boar runs out from the culvert and you try to swerve and hit the ditch. "

    I agree to some extent...

    But the thing here is we are talking luxury vs. sport. So those 2 things in and of itself are completely opposite goals.

    It's like saying I like sweet ice cream but someone likes sour. So if you add a sour topping on a sweet ice cream, of course it will change the whole character.

    However, I think it's a little more simple than that. If you like a sporty feel you are going to add stiffer springs and stiffer shocks and you are not going to add softer shocks or springs. So you WON'T end up with a different result.

    You must have some kind of engineering background...

    When dealing with suspensions, sure engineered is better. But I am also of the mindset that you can get it in the "ballpark" so to speak, and it's not so complicated.

    It's not like you are going to chooose to add some sour topping to a sweet ice cream. Everything you do is going to be done with the intent to firm up or stiffen the suspension. Harder bushings, bigger sway bars, stiffer shocks. I don't see how if you like a better handling vehicle you are going to find something you don't like.

    A whole is the sum of it's parts. If you are making the parts stiffer and firmer, then the whole will be the same to. Again, while I do agree that it's nice to look at the big picture and have an engineered result, if that's not possible, then I'd still rather be in the ball park than never attempt at all. And even then, at least "seat of the pants" I will be satisfied.

    Most times if you take a corner or drive spiritedly, you can tell if the handling is mushy or firm or what kind of improvements you've made.

    If someone designs a car with luxury in mind, I can be pretty sure that the car modified to be more sporty will always outhandle the luxury one. And by comparison, the luxury one would be EVEN MORE unsafe than the modified vehicle, when that wild boar pops up in the raod...
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    You must have some kind of engineering background...

    lol, not hardly. I can barely balance my checkbook.

    Sour ice cream? You must like drizzling a little 100 year old artisan Modena balsamic vinegar on your ice cream. Costs about the same as a shock too.

    Enjoy your ride!
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