Black Box Data Recording
Some states limit how the information saved in your car's various data recorders can be used.
The NHTSA is being lobbied to develop standard for "Event Data Recorders."
Anyone have any personal experience with a black box in your car or think there are privacy concerns with them?
The NHTSA is being lobbied to develop standard for "Event Data Recorders."
Anyone have any personal experience with a black box in your car or think there are privacy concerns with them?
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Personally, I don't have any problem with them.
If you are in an accident, they can provide valuable information.
These things are based on throwing an exception code in the software, which is different from storing vehicle settings and driving patterns.
As some people have already said, the "black boxes" only store a few seconds of data.
To you, the cops or the lawyers on the other side? :shades:
Obviously, if you are at fault, it won't help you. It will help your victim.
So, don't cause any accidents
so there would be all sorts of additional analysis and expertise and revealed knowlege about the design of the system and validating the information contained therein that would be needed.
If one of the sensors that the black box records does go bad,chances are you would have to have the car towed to the dealer for repair anyway.
those sensors perform functions that are necessary for the car to operate on a daily basis. All the box would do is record their operation.
If you are trying to avoid prosecution for being the cause of a crash, you can't hide from black box data. I think that's a good tool for the good guys.
and do these recorders record the angular velocity of each wheel?
all i'm saying is that proper interpretation would require additional expertise to make sure the data was read and interpreted properly. the group which reads out the digital flight data recorders from planes post crash are a specialized group. you wouldn't want every police department or insurance company responsible for same on automobiles would you? :surprise:
If they use the ABS sensors,they do.
There is NOWHERE near the same amount of data on these recorders as there is on an airplane's.
I think that it's more than a coincidence that one of the huge issues Toyota had was over the sludging problem and their contention that the maintenance was not done timely. Now everytime the light comes on it's normally reset when the service is completed.
Black Box recording these events?
Euro cars have had maintenance indicators for quite a while.
I assume that routine engine operation functions are monitored but what else? How long is it stored?
I remember stories back a few years where GM was taking readings of stored data and using them to deny warranty claims. As I recall, the car recorded every time the speed was over 80 and the dealers were claiming customer abuse.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Maybe it's high time there was.
Event Data Recorders are nothing new and don't store that much but have been very useful in investigations (sometimes criminal) with beneficial or damning evidence.
I think it's time for Vehicle Data Recorders that record and store many more parameters than Event Recorders - this whole Toyota mess would have been a lot simpler and I think it would have gotten rid of a lot of flimsy arguments if a data recorder revealed gear placement, switching attempts, braking and acceleration activity from the motorist.
Don't consider me on Toyotas side either - a data recorder would have put them equally under scrutiny, bad or good.
I wouldn't rule out small unobtrusive durable cameras either. Recordings of the environment around the vehicle and other vehicles would be very helpful in determining what "really" happened. This is already achieved with many police departments now using the dash cameras.
My wife made the observation that the popular back-up cameras would be EXTREMELY useful if they had something that turned them on when you had a severe tailgater that caused an incident. It's always fun watching somebody squirm when they see what they did to cause a collision.... If they're still alive.
The use of EDR stored information to recreate an accident scenario was not the original intent. That an EDR's stored data could be used for such a purposes came out gradually, over the course of several years. It was never debated in such terms. Now we're stuck with it.
Am I a fan of EDRs? NO! (For that matter, I'm not fan of airbags either. But, that's a topic for another thread). Just another attempt at Big Brother to poke his nose into your business. And no, I don't believe the song and dance about "if you've done nothing wrong, what do you have to worry about". The powers that be have never been able to keep their hands out of the cookie jar, once they've gotten into the kitchen.
So, they should rip out the flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders in transport category aircraft? Isn't that big brother?
See how ridiculous that sounds? I already see the argument; but it's MY car, it's my PERSONAL car owned by me - nobody can snoop around! What happens if YOUR car slams into a city bus? Or the city bus slams into you. You and your lawyer are delighted to find out that the bus now has video data recording and vehicle data recording that shows the bus driver was texting while driving - open and shut case. YOU were the one texting while driving and slammed into the bus, how is that different?
Well, unfortunately you drive your vehicle on a PUBLIC thoroughfare and to me, that means opened up to public scrutiny and record for safety reasons just like a large jet operating on an arrival route into or the light rail around Baltimore MD.
We all have this extremely incorrect stance that once we shut the door of our car - the massive infrastructure around it is just..... incidental to our needs and our actions or a mechanical failure of our vehicle is not open to scrutiny.
After some idiot with blatant road rage activity hits your car and then takes off only to be apprehended hours later because an onboard camera caught the whole mess.... Was that big brother? Ask your attorney what he thinks!!!!!
So, they should rip out the flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders in transport category aircraft? Isn't that big brother?
Well, passenger airlines are public transportation, not private (like my car). And I believe that information/evidence gleaned from an airplane's black (really orange) cannot be used in litigation against the airline. It is used to establish root-cause of an incident with the sole purpose of making an improvement so that the same incident will not occur again. It is not meant to be a tool used by a bunch of accident chasing lawyers.
And, just for the record, I don't care if an airline has a black box in it or not. It doesn't make the flight I might be on any safer. It might make a future flight safer, but not mine.
YOU were the one texting while driving and slammed into the bus, how is that different?
I don't use a cell phone at all, much less text. So that analogy doesn't apply in my case. Maybe you should just put EDR's in the cars of cell phone users?
Well, unfortunately you drive your vehicle on a PUBLIC thoroughfare and to me, that means opened up to public scrutiny and record for safety reasons just like a large jet operating on an arrival route into or the light rail around Baltimore MD.
Sorry, not the same thing as an airline or light rail.
After some idiot with blatant road rage activity hits your car and then takes off only to be apprehended hours later because an onboard camera caught the whole mess.... Was that big brother?
Yep. Get rid of the friggin' cameras - I'll take my chances.
By your line of reasoning, you would be OK with a Big Brother mirror and camera in your bedroom just to make sure you don't enagage in any unhealthy activities :P
Yep. I think he's a great writer.
So.... You're car is private but it requires registration and in some states inspection and emissions. It also has two big signs on it that readily identify you (plates) and decals (usually in a window) saying you are complying with.... Big Brother?
I think your "private" car is a lot more public than you think..... Taken a look at platewire.com lately?
Oh and by the way, my bedroom, to my knowledge has never had to interact with other bedrooms on public property.
Nope, don't like that either. I could easily live and drive without plates and registration. Best as I can tell, the only thing they do is keep a bunch of people at the MVA employed.
Oh and by the way, my bedroom, to my knowledge has never had to interact with other bedrooms on public property.
No, but in many parts of the country there were (not sure if they are still on the books or not) laws making it an offense to engage in certain acts, even in the privacy of your own bedroom. Why? Because, in some people's minds, those acts were an endangerment to society - the public. How do we know you're not discussing acts of sedition in your bedroom? Sounds to me like just the sort of reason a law abiding citizen like yourself would welcome a camera and mike in their home to verify that such dangerous acts are not taking place :shades: .
I forgot to mention that yes, I love Orwell....... and most of Orwell's work was.... fiction.
To this day, no writings of Orwell have come true (except Iran and North Korea possibly) and we are WAY past 1984!
There is a horrific and complete failure of many individuals (outside this forum also) to realize that in basic observation that the highways and byways are.
NOT PRIVATE!!!
Why do you insist your car is private when it's right next to a city bus? Is the city bus private? Is the tanker that just overturned private?
But... The sheer micro-second your "private" car is hit by the city bus or a truck that ran a stop light you light up like a crybaby with attorneys that have meat-ripping fangs with indignation and outcry. Even better, the city bus had a black box recording the transgressions against YOUR vehicle.
As for the bedroom thing, tie your Buick to the ceiling fan while you watch flies getting their wings amputated if it turns you on.... As long as it's not criminal I really do not care, I might not understand it, but truly, I simply don't care.
Just don't hurt other people.
There already have been several court cases where Toyota was very unresponsive to requests to access the data in their auto after accidents. Toyota has supposedly said there is only ONE laptop in the entire USA with the software to query their black box. And they quoted one time a price of $5,000+ for a tech to bring this laptop to a car.
In most other cases they appear to just refuse or not respond to requests to pull the black box data. Several of these request have involved 'unintended acceleration' cases.
If what was printed in this article is half-way true, then Toyota's troubles are just starting. If this is what Toyota has done in the past, I think that a bunch of heavy-duty law firms are going to look for accident victims and bring enormous lawsuits aganist them.
Toyota has also supposed to have said these black boxes are only 'prototype' items and their data can only be used by themselves.
They have had them in most of their autos since about 2001, 9 years ago, hardly what appears to be 'prototype' hardware.
Toyota's rear is grass and it's going to be chewed up big time by the lawyers because of their previous positions on this black box issue.
And that's the problem. The data in the EDR will be used more to enrich some ambulance chasing lawyers than it will to make safer vehicles. This is not the case with the flight data recorders that are used on airlines.
I applaud Toyota for not making its EDR data more readily available. I wish the other auto makers had taken the same approach.
And besides, if the government really, REALLY wanted that data, they could always turn a Toyota EDR over to a certain 3 letter acronym federal agency in the Ft. Meade area and have the box cracked in short time.
California Black Box Law
In September, California became the first state to adopt a law that addressed the issue of event data recorders (or black boxes) in automobiles. When a crash occurs, these black boxes record certain factors seconds before the accident. The actual information recorded varies widely depending on the type of recorder. It could be something as simple as whether the air bag deployed, or as complicated as what speed your vehicle was traveling at, as well as if you were braking at the time of the accident.
One thing this law (which goes into effect July 1, 2004) has accomplished is that it brought attention to this issue. Attention that has been sorely lacking. The majority of drivers don't even know these devices exist, let alone the potential that their car's information could be used against them.
Most car owner's manuals only have a sentence or two that tells you that your vehicle has a black box. And, even then, it is usually in the section that describes your air bag and implies that the recorder only records that your air bag deployed. It doesn't go into detail on how many seconds before a crash are recorded or what other information may be included. This new California law will now require carmakers to provide more information concerning these devices.
While this new legislation does require the disclosure of these devices, the privacy protections outlined in this law are a joke.
This law states that no one can access the data without the owner's permission or a court order. If you look closely at this, you can see this really doesn't restrict anything. If you have been in an accident, it would be very easy for the court to order this information to be collected. No protection there.
A driver could also be pressured into giving permission for the information to be taken. (One scenario could be your insurance company threatening you with higher premiums if you don't share your car's information.) No protection there either.
While this brings much needed attention to the issue of black boxes, this isn't even close to being the "privacy act" that the politicians are touting it to be.
Why wouldn't a lawyer be able to access the flight data recorder? At worse it would take a court order. A Thousand Pictures (PCM Online)
That's just the opposite of the way things works in other industries. Companies are afraid of airing their dirty laundry - of admitting that, in hindsight, they maybe should have done something different, because of the very real possibility that such disclosures could be used against them in a lawsuit.
Because of that, there is an incentive to hide and deny problems, and try to fix them in a manner that doesn't draw any attention. Also, there is no reason to share their findings or experiences with anyone else in the industry because of competitive pressures.
"During the trial, the jury listened to the last minute of the cockpit voice recorder as they watched a computer-animated reconstruction based on the flight data recorder."
I guess part of the question comes down to who you trust more to ferret out why a crash occurred - the NHTSA, FAA or other government agency or the ferret* and his experts.
(*aka trial lawyers).
I went back through some my reference material. In the case of TWA Flight 800 that went down off the New England coast in 1996, some of the airline passengers tried to sue Boeing and the manufacturer of a fuel pump that was suspected, but never proven, to have been the cause of the center fuel tank explosion. I don't know if they were successful or not. Some of the results of the NTSB investigation was also used in those litigations.
With the Swiss Air flight 111 that went down off the coast of Nova Scotia, one of the reasons given for the loss of the aircraft was the flammability of some Dupont cabin material. Again some survivors of the passengers chose not to accept the airline's settlement offer and instead decided to sue Boeing and Dupont to the tune of $11 billion, I believe. That case was thrown out.
So I may be off base when I said FDR contents and NTSB results cannot be used in a lawsuit. Some of the information in the court record for those two incidents was only obtained by filing a FIA request, and even then some of the results were inconclusive, particularly as it related to interpreting the analog recording on parts of the FDR and CDR tapes.
In any case, I still think it's very scary that we willingly accept carrying around things that could be used against us like that. That goes for GPS enabled cell phones as well as EDRs. Heck, I don't even want an electronic toll device (Easy Pass) because it's too easy for someone to see where I've been. Maybe I'm just too paranoid.
Guess I'll keep the '87 BMW running for a few years longer. No EDR there.
Requiring a court order gives you a chance to try to fight my having access to the data recorder.
Since you're keeping the old Bimmer, I'll have to rely on the black helicopters and drones overhead to help me out when you plow into me.
We had an elected official killed by a drunk driver here in Pennsylvania.
The drunk driver is STILL claiming the state senator wandered into his lane even as the trial ended and it was ridiculously obvious that the drunk was at fault from data collected at the scene and the vehicles, don't even mention his blood alcohol level.
Perhaps the drunk is now believing he has been the victim of an "Orwellian" big brother nightmare more than his failure to realize he's just a scum bag that dismissed his responsibilities to other citizens on a PUBLIC road?
I doubt the greater PUBLIC shares his "big brother" viewpoint - especially the senators wife who was seriously injured also.
I'm constantly amazed by how Joe Road Rager demands insane amounts of scrutiny for his short airline flight to Boston, CVR's, FDR.s, TSA, maintenance records, quips to the flight attendant "the pilots up there all nice and rested" demanding absolute safety and responsibility.
He then promptly climbs into his "private" vehicle at the airport lot after having two liquor shorts, beers in the terminal and expects NOT to be scrutinized on a PUBLIC road after the flight by data recorders and cameras on the dashboard of the police that just pulled him over for menacing a Toyota (pardon the pun) that wouldn't get out of his way after they braked to avoid a deer and he..... didn't.
You get a better discount if you practice gentle braking, drive fewer miles than the average driver in your state, and minimize driving during peak hours or between midnight and 4 a.m.
The device tracks time of day and vehicle speed, which helps determine how many miles you drive and how often you make sudden stops (G force).
The Snapshot device doesn't contain GPS technology or track vehicle location. It also doesn't track whether you're exceeding the speed limit.
The FAQ says it can't tell if you're exceeding the speed limit, but it tracks speed and time info, so my guess is that if you are doing 80 anywhere but Kansas and parts of Texas, you'll get dinged as a speeder.
You can also log in and track your own driving by day of the week and time of day and get an overview of your driving habits.
Looks like the discount is at least 25% and except for the occasional speeding, I'd qualify. But Progressive never has given me a competitive quote, so even 25% off probably is more than I'm paying now.
Might even be able to convince a judge that a revenue enforcer wasn't being completely candid on the speeding ticket.
I bet should it come to all that, that the insurance provided recorders somehow would become inadmissible as defense, just able to be used for prosecution :shades:
Not sure about the warning label, but IIRC, when I took possession of my 2005 Dakota, one of the papers that came with the truck was a notice of the EDR, what it does, and how law enforcement and insurance entities could get their hands on it and the data it contains.
Not defending it but the Snapshot device only stays in your car for 30 days. Technically if you could be a really good boy for 30 days, you could get a good discount.
As Congress Mulls Mandate on Car Black Boxes, Data Ownership Remains Unclear (Wired)
"As of 2011, GM vehicles as old as 1994 have accessible data, Ford vehicles as old as 2001 have accessible data, Chrysler vehicles as old as 2005 have accessible data, Toyota and Lexis vehicles as old as 2006 have accessible data, as well as some Isuzu, Fiat, Mitsubishi, Scion, Sterling, and Suzuki vehicles."
Busted! Your car's black box is spying, may be used against you in court (Computerworld)
Time to snip some wires.
That's my inclination also. Though I think the existing EDRs are part of the air bag activation system. Snip a couple of wires and no air bag (which actually would be OK with me) or worse - accidental deployment!
Nearly all vehicles currently have the devices.
NHTSA's proposed rule, which would raise the percentage of vehicles required to have an EDR from 91.6 percent today to 100 percent of light-duty autos, would have an incremental cost of nearly $24.4 million, assuming the sale of 15.5 million light vehicles per year."
NHTSA gets White House OK to mandate vehicle 'black boxes' (Detroit News)
"It appears that the law will assign ownership of EDR data to the car's owner or lessee. However, major exceptions will allow access by emergency responders and require the sharing of such information following a court order."
Federal Bill Would Require Event Data Recorders in All Cars (24-7pressrelease.com)
Am I right? Of course I am.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Top 5 Things Your Car Knows About You
I have no personal knowledge of this, this info is all from newspaper reports.
The fight between Tesla and The New York Times raises privacy concerns for automakers and car reviewers.
Tesla's computer software in the car effectively allows it to track a reporter's movements in real time."
Fight Between Tesla and New York Times Raises Privacy Concerns
The tax would be based on mileage reports that could be made in a variety of ways, such as via smartphone app or global positioning system technology.
Other states, including Washington, have looked at per-mile charges. A Washington law that would charge electric car owners an annual fee goes into effect in February.
Oregon set up a task force in 2001 and did a pilot study in 2006, which raised privacy concerns — the government could track cars as they use private roads or leave the state.
http://www.katu.com/politics/Ore-to-consider-per-mile-tax-for-gas-sippers-185498- 072.html
That said the Tesla is not EVER going to be mainstream transportation. They are for fat cats with multiple cars in the stable.