Hmmm.... interesting corelation there, and I agree with that. But on the other hand, just like people that stay indoor will have better protection against skin cancer than people that stay outdoor, one can also said that camry engine can/may/will develop sludge, but it can prevented/prolong/slowed by regular and timely oil changes. IMHO its more likely that oil changes and the oil itself is the culprint in this matters, but a simple advice to check should not be treated like a blasphemy or occur or such.
My husband took my car to his dealership to fix some scratches before I turned it in, on the way he heard a clanking sound. When he arrived at the dealership he works at they looked at it and said there was no oil and engine looked bad, he had it towed over to the Toyota dealership. I just had an oil change a month ago, no oil leaking anywhere, no oil light going on in car indicating low on oil. The word is today that Toyota says they will not cover it, service advisor at Toyota is saying a couple of thousands for the engine. I need to find any info that will help me with this case.......Help........
Totally agreed. We should do what we can for those who DO have problems. But since only a very few have this problem, we should stop claiming "most" camrys have this problem.
Problem causes: -- oil change not being frequent enough.
Solution: --
(1) don't wait 7,500 miles between oil changes. But for those who do, please follow the vast majority of the world and change every 3-5 months.
(2) Toyota need to ammend it's owners manual to shorten the oil change intervals.
(3) don't use Pennzoil and Quaker State oil. The additive they put into the oil are known to cause sludge.
(4) As per good car ownership practice. Give your car a quick check ever week or two. Check all the oil level, the fluid levels, and tire pressures.
no check engine light, no check oil light, but there is no oil? Something is wrong here. The lights should come on when the oil drop below a certain level, never mind to a level where there is no oil! Well, no driving a car without oil will certaintly produce all sorts of nice black burnt stuff.
Do you check the oil level regularly? If so, did you note oil levels within the month after the oil change, but before the problem started? Was there thick blue smoke during the month after the oil change?
Why this "problem" exists. Maybe the engines don't vent enough or something. For me, it woldn't be a problem as I change oil every 3500-4000 miles anyway.
And I agree with wenuye about Pennzoil and Quaker State. Here's a story...
Many years ago, while in college, I worked part time in a gas station. Now, this station did a lot of mechanical work.
I was lucky to learn a great deal from one of the best old time type mechanics ever. Bob was from the old school and was, simply the best.
He told about his years as a mechanic in a Cadillac dealership. Upon delivery, they would ask the customer if they wanted Pennzoil or Havoline when the car was brought in for service.
They would mark the record to reflect the customer's choice.
Bob said that back in those days (50's-early 60's) they would pull the oil pan at 50K and clean it.
He said that the Havoline engines were always spotless and the Pennzoil engines were just filled with sludge!
He also said that the Pennzoil engines would be worn out at around 80,000 miles.
And, once in awhile, we would have a car in for something and pull a valve cover.." Pennzoil engine!" Bob would say, and he was always right!
Now, that was a long time ago, and, to be fair, Pennzoil may be vastly improved.
I won't use it. I still have visions of sludge filled engines.
If you can find out why there is no oil, probably you can find somebody to be responsible for it. Either the oil is leaking from somewhere (drain plug, filter, etc) or the person who changed the oil for you did not pour any/enough amount oil in. Good luck to you.
any engine burning gas (not just Camry engine) will have sludge formed inside engine.
If people does not change oil/filter themselves, and just take the car to a garage or quick lube. After the service, they need to make sure the oil has been changed with new engine oil and have the proper amount. They also need to make sure the filter get changed. I also heard several cases that the drain plug thread and filter thread got damaged by the mechanics. People really should watch while the car being serviced and check again after the service is done.
I have a 97 Camry LE (4 cylinder) with 34,000 miles that is having "blue smoke" problems (white smoke from the exhaust when accelerating). The Toyota dealer is refusing warranty service even though I have oil change receipts because they found sludge under the valve cover. They say the company's policy is to deny engine repair coverage if any sludge is found. They have now given me an estimate of $3,000 for a major engine repair. Anyone else having this problem? How did you deal with it?
You can come in here saying that these people are one in the same and chat up nonsense as much as you like but that won't change the fact that the Camry has a problem. Like I said before if this problem can happen to any engine show me proof.
I don't know how many time I have to say the accord DID have a transmission problem. But this is the sludging Camry topic. I'm not discussing Honda.
Can see the common denominator in every sludge post...No one knew what sludge was. Unlike the Honda "clunk" oft referred to here the sludge is not an obvious condition. Most people don't even open their hoods let alone know the condition of their engine until something goes wrong. And with Toyota blaming the owners and requiring all receipts and proof of maintenance, many people probably think THEY caused the sludge and just paid up.
It not the fact that I only found 5 to 10 posts about the Camry it the fact that there ARE 5 to 10 posts about the Camry. There is no other engine with as many sludge posts period. I found very few engines that have more than 1 if any. The Camry has a problem.
From your above posts, it sounds like some unscrupulus dealers are trying to stick it to some of their less knowledgeable customers.
I have a little bit of mechanical knowledge after rebuilding several automobile engines, the most recent being a 1984 Supra. The sludge you refer to is most likely just the result of the oil additive's reaction with condensation in the engine. This condition is aggravated by infrequent oil changes and lots of short trips which never allow the engine to fully warm up and drive off the condensation. I have not looked at a Camry owners manual, but the other vehicles that I have owned recommend an oil change every 3000 miles for severe service conditions, with numerous short trips of < 5 miles being considered severe service.
There is no way that a buildup of sludge in the valve cover area is going to be a cause for an engine rebuild unless it gets so severe that it plugs the oil drain holes in the head that allow the oil to drain back to the pan. Even if this occurred, I would think that you would develop severe oil leaks around the valve cover gasket prior to any engine damage.
Another reason you are finding more posts about the Camry than other cars is possibly due to the fact that most Toyota owners are so picky about their vehicles, myself included.
fxashun: "Toyota policy is to deny service coverage if sludge is found..." Man, that definitely sounds like a botched up dealer..... I know Toyota salesforce are among the worst in the auto industry as it is with Honda, but is their service dept rank flat bottom too? The 1st quote does indicates that the person is using Penzoil though, so that may also strengthen the argument that Penzoil/Quaker state is the cause of the sludge? BTW, what nonsense are you talking about?
arkie6: Another reason is probably because other brand owner doesnt know how to spread their situation to the internet, or doesnt feel the need to do so
only 5 to 10 post? Geez, I could do lot better than that if most 92+ camry has sludge problems. See how easily it is to find reports of Accord's transmission problems even though it's rare and isolated accordding to fxashun and isellmitsu/acuragrl. It's funny how they say a large number is "few" and "isolated" and then say a smaller number represents "most". Talking about double standard.
Were so picky about their cars they would change the oil more often. If Camry owners were so picky about their cars what does that make the other myriad owners of cars that have no sludge issue? Why is the Camry the only car with multiple sludge posts? If sludge was as common as that why aren't other engines doing it? We've covered how sludge normally forms previously.
I checked our auction record today and found that of the 15 Camrys that were auctioned in the past couple month over 9 of them had noted sludge. That's enough sludge to where we had to note it on the windshield.
What's meant by spread a situation to the internet? There's an alt.autos.honda with little mention of sludge and there are other automotive newsgroups with no single engine with multiple posts regarding sludge. Any forum regarding Camrys has someone with sludge.
If all you can do is compare this to the Honda transmission problem with every post Wenyue you really are reaching. How many times do I have to say that the Accord DID have a transmission problem in it's V6 models. You wanna do something constructive how about finding posts referring to the 4 cylinder's transmission. Maybe if you find multiple posts regarding THAT car you'll have some information we can debate.
If all anyone can do is say "no there's not" and have nothing else to say....That's weak. Let's see what you have to work with...Honda transmissions, picky owners, oil brand, short trips, and a 1984 Supra???!!!!....Gimme a break. Everything except the Honda transmission and Supra are things that happen to any car and there are no sludge posts about them. And you guys are supposed to be college educated too.
what's weak is when someone keeps on denying that the Accord's V6 problem were widespread dispite more the more numous reports it had, and then the same person turns around and trying to turn the fewer reports of Camry sludge (5-10 out of 3.2 million camry owners) and calling it "wide-spread".
I can easily find 20 or more reports of Accord's transmission problem. So one can either say "accord's transmission problem is wide-spread, and to a less extent, so is Camry's sludge problem", or you can say both are "rare and isolated" (which has been fxashun's line all through those months of defending Honda's repuation). At least one can keep it consistant instead being so clearly biased and double standard for God's sake!
Does any one have any substantial evidence that can refute the fact that MORE THAN 95% OF THE CAMRY ENGINES ARE RUNNING TROUBLE FREE AFTER MORE THAN 9 YEARS? (consumer report) I don't mean few circumstantial problems found by plowing the entire internet. Camry didn't win a bullet proof reputation by every well established sources by having sludged up engine in "most" of them.
p.s I found couple of sludge reports by Accord owners and showed to fxashun, but he failed to mention that of course.
Thanks! Saved me the time for digging up all the reports. I did a search for "sludge", and there are over 30,000 posts containing that word. Some are unrelated but a large number are, and by all the automakers. I simply don't feel like wasting my weekend listing all the posts. Thanks for saving everyone's time.
Keep in mind that there ARE ALOT more Camrys on the road than just about any car. So a single report of Saturn/VW/Mazda/Nissan report is easily statistical equivalent of 10-20 Camry reports.
Not saying that there isn't a small % of camrys out there that has sludge problems. But when someone says "most" of them do... well, let's just say I know more than 10 Camry owners within my social circle (camry is a very popular car among Chinese), and either all 10 of them are all lying or lucky as hell, or most Camry engines are very reliable.
After fxashun searched the whole net, finally he gave 5 examples in post #1. If my memory serves me right, those 5 examples were reported by the owners somewhere else (most on alt.autos.toyota) and did not give out detail information on this issue. Therefore, we did not know and did not have chance to ask those owners how they maintain their cars and more detailed information regarding their Camrys (such as did they really see sludge under the valve cover?)
But anyway, I remember post #61 and #62 (just posted by fxashun) are two of those 5 previous cases given in post #1. I just hope those same cases won't get "double dipped" (is that the right term?), being posted 1 month ago as a strong evidence, then being posted again 1 month later as another strong evidence.
Is that a good thing to do by reposting those post #1 old cases again (post #61 and #62) and then say "I can find these all day about the Camry" (title of post #63)? And even delete the original post (post #1)?
To solve this problem: Those few people, who decided to follow the owners manual's lax oil change requirement (7500 miles), should go back to change oil like the vast majority (every 3000-5000 miles). Stay away from Penzoil, (I bet more than one Camry fell victim to that junk). If that's done, most of these reports probably wouldn't even be here.
Service for you and the rest eh? Can i have your address to send this bill? ^__^
To be fair, I also find some post regarding Penzoil/Quaker state using wax based oil in and being categorized as class I oil which help sludge buildup, but thats (according to the poster) is a long time ago, and now they used class II oil which supposedly much better...Castrol on the other hand still use class 1 oil. Also, there's another gentleman that use mobil oil, and still has sludge, so go figures... Also (geesh)... some of the post indicates sludge build up is possible because the car has been subjected to waaayy too many cold starts and short trip between starts... seems logical to me too.
Anyway, people can draw their own conclusion and I think what wenyue point out (3k regular oil change) should help dissolve the sludge issue.
This is what I found in "Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2 (Topic #851)".
Post 146:
"Dealer is nuts. No one uses a straight 30 W anymore, especially new engines. Dealer problably got one hell of a discount on the oil and needs to push it. Stick with the multi viscocity oil. I once informed Toyota that their dealer was not even offering the recommended weight oil for the car and they quicly told the dealer to offer it. They (dealer) had a special deal with Penzoil for a strange weight and were pushing it."
If this is indeed true, that Toyota dealers have a special deal with Penzoil, then it might be the cause. If you change your oil at the dealer, please find out what oil they are using.
Wenyue- How many ways do I have to say that THE ACCORD V6 DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. If I knew Chinese I would say it that language. I've said that many times but you seem to not be reading it. HOOKED ON PHONICS WORKS. Yes, you did show some Honda sludge reports and not only were they on 2 separate engines they also each explained themselves. In case you don't remember I have said several times that the Camry 2.2 4 cylinder is the ONLY engine that seems to have multiple sludge references. You whole post was just irrelevant BS. liufei-If you had actually read those links you would have not used them. The VW links were for air.cooled VW engines as in the engine in the Beetle up to 1974!!!??? The Nissan link only mentions sludge. The Mazda post has all kinds of issues in addition to the sludge.> excessive fuel consumption > small chronic coolant loss > excessive oil consumption > premature oil breakdown > engine vibration > clattering valves > low rpm hesitation > lack of power in all rpm ranges The Saturn link is about an engine cleaning service. It didn't say that the car actually has sludge. And the Jeep is a 1989 but I may be willing to give you that one if you can find other posts implicating this engine.
You obviously also didn't read my last post. I said that the 92+ 4 cylinder Camry is the ONLY car that has MULTIPLE posts concerning cars that actually have sludge. You can deny it. You can post BS. An that fact will still remain. There are several posts concerning cars with sludge it's just that the Camry is the most prolific.
Also of that 30,000 how many were paint sludge, pond sludge, chemical sludge?
This is like the umpteenth time someone else post slipped before mine can be posted. I hate that!! ^__^
Well, i found one sludge issue with a 95 camry: http://looksmart.remarq.com/looksmart/transcript.asp?g=&tn=10000009&sh=0015b4cd22c992cd&str=sludge&idx=0 At the bottom, someone suggested switching to synthetic oil, change oil more often and after 3-4 changes, it should remove the sludge. So I guess frequent oil change does prevent sludge, which mean sluge buildup is due to long time between oil changes? I do wonder if just switching to synthetic and changing oil frequently will remove the existing sludge buildup? Dont they have to clean the pan,gasket and stuff?
Can you or can you not disprove the fact that MORE THAN 95% CAMRY'S ENGINE ARE TROUBLE FREE EVEN AFTER 9+ YEARS?! You can come up sling all the mud, and dig up the entire internet, you still can't show more than just few circumstantial cases.
Is Camry a perfect car? No. Do few of them have sludge? Yes. But do "MOST" 92+ camry engine suffer sluge problem. NO! Not unless you call less than 5% problem rate after 9 year "most". Besides Lexus SC300/400, you can't find a more reliable engine, in fact, most engine have worst reliability. Want to trade?
Also. Let me quote you (and remind you) on the subject regarding Accord's transmisson problem:
From Leganza 2: post 169 -- "Luckily not that many Accords were affected and of that few the number if dissatisfied customers should be minimal."
post 175 -- "It didn't effect that many vehicles and Honda voluntarily repaired them."
Oh, so you say the more numerous reports of Accord's tranmssion problem (on Edmund's alone) stand for "... Not that many..." and "...few...". And then you turn around and say the few reports (after you digging up the entire internet, mind you), stands for "most 92+" have problems.
Can we say "DOUBLE STANDARD?" You either say both of them are "most", or "few" for both. You can't use double standard to suit your purpose.
Also, while you are busy bashing Daewoo in the Daewoo forum (what were you doing in a Daewoo forum in the first place?), during a debate of Korean vs Japanese quality, you used Camry as an example of Japanese cars's quality. Post 177. "Even if 10% of the Camrys produced had a problem that would be 40,000 cars a year. They would NOT be the standard bearer if they produced the equivalent of the entire years production of Daewoo of poor quality. " Oh, now you say that any problem is less than 10% in Camry (hence indeed not MOST). You seem to like to say whatever suits your argument at that time.
Look I think we heard enough from you. You can drop the double standard, or triple standard, or whatever number of standard you have. You can either disprove the fact that Camry engine is more than 95% trouble free even after 9 year, or you can stop saying "most" camry has sludge problems. Since you insisted the more numerous reports of Accord transmission problem is "few", then I'm sure you will agree that the few reports of Camry sludge is "fewer". Right?
Exaggerating the extent of the problem isn't helping anyone. Try to help the very few who do have problem instead.
geeze buddy, calm down.. you going to have a heart attack . This is only a discussion, nothing to get soooo excited about it. Fxashun can be right or you can be right, it wont affect your livehood, so calm down, and enjoy the great weekend. (wohoo!! time to blast some fireworks!!)
I had quite a bit of fun reading the "spirited" discussions. I really do not have an opinion about the vehicles mentioned or their problems. I do however want to make a few comments.
About the 1%, 10%. I seriously doubt that even 1% of people with problems post them on Edmunds. All you have to do to prove this is take a vehicle with a known problem, (TSBs' are a good place to start). Find out the total production for the vehicle in question, and compare it to the number of posts on Edmunds. I would be VERY surprised if this number exceeded 1%. A better way to do it would be to calculate the percentage based on the Edmunds population, eg. how many of the Edmunds brand X owners have a problem compared to the total number of Edmunds brand X owners.
Probably 90%, (or pick your number), of consumers are truly clueless when it comes to their cars. The people on Edmunds are the most knowlegeable and involved segment of the car owner population, yet probably represent only a fractional percentage of the car driving population. Therefore it is quite possible that a common problem could go unnoticed by a vast majority of the population.
Brand loyalty/bias is also a consideration. The stronger a persons loyalty and/or bias toward a brand is, the more likely the person is going to be in a denial state of mind towards problems with their object of lust. This is a very normal basic human behavior.
Having said all this, I believe that the major factor preventing determination of problems lies in the cluelessness of the average consumer with a small contribution by the brand loyalty/bias issue.
I had a 1994 Toyota Camry LE. Purchased new and driven by my wife. It had 66,000 so just about 11,000 miles per year. I changed the oil using Penzoil and Fram oil filters at about every 6,000 miles or twice a year. We pampered that car. My wife wanted to get routine maintance done on it and have the timing belt changed on it at 66,000 miles. There seemed to be nothing wrong with the car it ran perfect and sounded fine. We took it to a dealer and after he changed the timing belt he called and said our engine was sludged from not having changed the oil often enough and we needed a soft rebuild or a new engine between $3,600 and $4,600. Now on the way home for the first time ever it was blowing smoke on acceleration. I contacted Toyota about this and they blew me off in a nano-second saying that it was not their fault and they were not going to budge. Even though I may be in a minority of people who have had this problem with the Camry Toyota could have cared less and for me having taken care of that car the Camry was not that great a car.
Hmm, interesting point. Ok, take your number and let's adjust to allow greater error in the real world. So if only 10% of the people are knoledgable about cars. Then let's increase the reported % by a factor of 10.
Camry sludge problem: 0.0719% x 10 = 0.719% real world.
Accord transmission problem: 0.316% x 10 = 3.16% real world.
Still, neither of those problem qualify as affecting "most" cars.
I agree that many people are clueless about their car. I heard this from a Toyota dealer. One woman turned in her Camry who's engine seized at 44,000 miles. The reason? She never changed the oil (she didn't know she had to). It really shows that there are some clueless people out there.
I more or less agree that I would guess that only 10% of the car owners actually have a good amount of knowledge about cars. The hard part is determining how much does one has to know about cars to qualify as a knoledgable sort.
aquatic: You are another person who reported to have sludge that uses Penzoil. The oil is known to cause sludge forumation in many different brand of cars. I would suggest that you switch to another brand (besides Quaker State) in the future. Good luck.
Wow! I go away for a few days and this topic becomes one of Edmund's hottest. Some comments: My user name 210delray comes from a mid to late 50s Chevy model; I don't live in Florida but rather Virginia. But Chevrolet undoubtedly took the model name from the Florida beach. I did NOT have sludge in my '97 Camry, just blue smoke on startup, caused by worn valve stem seals, which allowed oil to enter the cylinders. I DID follow Toyota's severe service recommendation for oil changes, which for the 1997s is 5000 miles (not 3000 miles). It was the service advisor at the Toyota dealership that mentioned the possibility of sludge when I brought the car in with the blue smoke problem. I didn't prompt him; he simply said the first step would be to remove the valve cover to check for sludge. It seems to me that Toyota knows there is a potential problem with the 4-cylinder engine. Wenyue, your point about Consumer Reports is well taken. I have put a lot of trust in their reliability surveys (and I fill out mine every year), but I think Fxashun also has a good point that the consumer has to be AWARE of a problem in order to report it. It was just by chance that I saw the blue smoke from my car -- only because I was looking from the street when another family member started the Camry in our driveway. But I couldn't see the smoke myself when I started the car another time -- someone else had to watch from outside. And the car ran and sounded fine. About Pennzoil - yes, I used it at first (and for years before in my older cars - no engine problems with them!) Then I switched to Texaco and Mobil. I think Pennzoil is getting a bum rap -- does anyone out there have any recent proof that it's worse than others? (Isellhondas: your story about the old mechanic was fascinating, but you're right that today's oils are vastly different -- in terms of additives -- from those of the late 50s and early 60s.)
You are completely correct about todays oil being completely different. Every time the service requirement has increased, (API rating), the oil has had to be reformulated some way to meet the new standard.
Aquatic: Part of the problem with your Camry could have been your oil change interval. Although you may or may not be within manufacturer's recommended mileage recommendation (I don't know much about Toyotas), you were probably outside the time recommendation. I know that several major manufacturers (Ford, Chevrolet, and Subaru) recommend changing the oil at most every three months whether you drive the car or not. Oil can absorb contaminants from the atmosphere, namely water. As time passes, more of the contaminant is absorbed and the oil becomes less and less useful. This could have contributed to your sludge problem. As far as the arguments about which oil is better, it really doesn't matter. All major label standard oils are pretty much the same. Synthetics are much better (of course), but if you follow the recommended oil change interval, they are not worth the added cost.
IMHO the greatest factor between different engines in sludge formation is heat. As oil passes beyond a certain temperature range the oil starts to break down, and actually becomes thicker. Now, while the AVERAGE temperature of oil is kept fairly constant even between different engines, The SPOT temperature in a particular engine may be raising the oil up to or above its breakdown point. As an example, this could occur in a head assembly near an exhaust port with marginal cooling in that area. The oil would start to break down in that one spot and eventually get carried throughout the engine causing "sludge". This of course would be a long term, 30K-100K mi., problem. The advent of aluminum heads has made this a bigger concern due to the superior heat transfer coefficient of aluminim compared to cast iron. The reports of an absence of deposits with synthetic oil, which has superior high temperature characteristics, tends to support this hypothesis.
Thank you. I work in the pharmaceutical research field. Ananlyzing data is part of the business. And yes, I believe the "most" claim is way over blown.
Over heating is one contributing factor. But bad oil filter and bad engine oil is another. Penzoil is (was?) known to cause sludge because of the additive they put in. It's something called "paraphin" (not sure about the spelling), I think it was used to increase the viscosity of the oil. But it also known to gum up your engine and cause sludge. I will look into the matter further.
I followed the recommendation of oil change interval by Consumer Reports:
How Often?
The long-time mantra of auto mechanics has been to change your oil every 3,000 miles. Most automakers recommend an oil change every 7,500 miles (and a specific time interval) for "normal" driving, and every 3,000 miles for "severe" driving (frequent trips of less than four or five miles, stop-and-go traffic, extended idling, towing a trailer, or dusty or extremely cold conditions). Many motorists' driving falls into one or more of those "severe" categories.
In our survey, almost two-thirds of our readers said they had their oil changed every 3,000 miles or less. They may be following the thinking expressed by one of our staffers: "I have my oil changed every 3,000 miles because that's what my father did, and all his cars lasted for many years." To determine whether frequent oil changes really help, we changed the oil in three cabs every 3,000 miles, using Pennzoil 10W-30. After 60,000 miles, we compared those engines with those from our base tests of the same oil, changed every 6,000 miles. We saw no meaningful differences...
The bottom line: Modern motor oils needn't be changed as often as oils did years ago. More frequent oil changes won't hurt your car, but you could be spending money unnecessarily and adding to the nation's energy and oil-disposal problems. Even in the severe driving conditions that a New York City taxi endures, we noted no benefit from changing the oil every 3,000 miles rather than every 6,000. If your driving falls into the "normal" service category, changing the oil every 7,500 miles (or at the automaker's suggested intervals) should certainly provide adequate protection. (We recommend changing the oil filter with each oil change.)
I think my downfall with the 1994 Camry is that my wife drives very short distances so she had frequent cold starts and short distances contributed to sludge. I noticed on toyotas website http://www.toyota.com/ that their maintenance schedule recommends oil changes every 5,000 to 7,500 miles too.
Aquatic: I agree that oil can easily be good up to 7,500 miles. However, I wasen't talking about mileage, I was talking about time. Time is the killer when talking about oil absorbing contaminants from the atmosphere. Six months is a long time with the same oil in your car (you said you changed it twice a year). I know several major manufacturers recommend oil changes every 3 months or 7,500 miles, normal driving schedule, whichever comes first (including GM and Ford). This should apply to an import also.
"My" topic made the list. I'm so proud. This is like my little baby. <<sob>>
Anyway...I have answered every question it's you who obviously in dire need of ritalin or something so you can comprehend. If all you have done is open your consumer reports and found those tired statistics you once again "need to get out more". There are more people every week coming in here saying they have had a sludged Camry just like I said there would be.
I like the fact that you have to go into an entirely different topic to find stuff to use in here. It good to know that you put this issue so high on your life's priority list even though you have claimed to be leaving three or four times now. Why don't you trot on back over to those early Leganza posts and you'll read why I'm in that forum.
As far as my "double standard" I defended Honda until we found that...here we go again...THE V6 HONDA DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. Geez...You are about clueless. Like I said if you find a widespread problem with the 4 cylinder Accord tranny maybe we can debate that or maybe that there are present problems with the Accord transmission. I'll say that one more time for the slow ones out there THE V6 ACCORD DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. This is starting to sound like a discussion with cyw0. Repetition, repetition. If the Accord problem is all you have to debate with you should abide by your previous statements and be "outta here" because this is the Camry sludge topic.
Sling mud????Bash???I have not bashed the Camry...There are two presently in my family. I think it's time I restate my true assertion because the name of this topic is not what I said. It was a sarcastic statement by Cywo.
Back in Camry 1 a person came in the say that has Camry had sludged and siezed. He asked is anyone had heard of Camry's sludging. My fiancee said that she had. Blah blah blah and here we are. A cut and paste from March(post 510 Camry 1).. "I don't recall Mitsu (AcuraGrl) ever saying that the sludge problem would cause engines to fail. She only said that the engines do have a tendency to sludge. Especially after high miles. Maybe if you change your oil every 3000 miles it won't but if the manual says change it every 5000-7500 miles it should not be necessary."
I clearly said that the engines probably would not fail only that they have a tendency to sludge. As far as "most or "high percentage" that's subjective I guess so whatever.
So here we go: In my experience I have found that a high percentage of higher mileage Camry 2.2L 4 cylinder engine have sludge build-up to some extent. I suggest that anyone looking to purchase a higher mileage Camry (80,000+) check the oil cap and inner valve cover for a black substance coating the insides.
Wenyue the Leganza post 169 is from JANUARY???!!!People had recently started posting about the transmission problem. Please post in context. Also could ya quit weakening your argument by using that Honda transmission reference? You've been using it since March (post 525 Camry 1). That makes the fact that I still have to answer that same comment here in July even more [non-permissible content removed]-inine.
Liufei:Deja goes back at least a couple years. You have to refine your search options. Go back and check again. But you still aren't getting my point. I said the Camry 4 cylinder is the only engine with multiple (as in many) references to sludge. I don't mean just references I mean people who say that their engine HAS sludge. There are several here on edmunds. Heck there are 2 or three at least so far in here.
How did I weaken my statement by bring into the light how you down played the number of Accord's transmission problem while exaggerating Camry's sludge problem?
As my calculation have show, there are more reports of Accord's transission problem (about 4 times more), than Camry's sludge problem.
What I have a problem is that you (as I have quoted your own words) down played the number of Accord's transmission problem by calling them "very few". And then, turns around and called the Camry's problem "most 92+ camry". That's where I have a problem.
Can we get the numbers straight here? And use one standard? So if you called the 20+ reports of Accord's problem "very few", then anyone would reason the 5 reports of Camry's sludge problme is "even fewer". I don't see how you go from "very few" to "most". Numbers isn't biased, they are just numbers.
fxashun can only repost two of his five old cases from one month ago, and then try to say "I can find these all day about Camrys" like he is proud of his finding.
I'll say that again. If Camrys really have a design problem. We will easily find reports everywhere, not just that 5 cases after searching the whole net. Those (3.2 millions - 5) Camrys owners are definitely not just lucky compared to those 5 owners. And anyone with car knowledge knows that maintenance (oil/filter change) is the key factor to the sludge problem.
I have to explain that. I already did in post 13 and 21. And probably many times before that. I'm going to save myself a lot of typing by referring you to posts where I have already explained your repetitious questions. Like I've said before, you got nothing to say.
You want to talk about dodging questions though. I have a few for you. Why is the Camry the only car with so many sludge references?
Why don't other cars have this tendency? Not even the Corrolla or older Camrys before they changed the engine.
Why do you refer all of you posts to me when there are now others who also have sludge testimonials here?
Why are there others with sludge testimonials in here if there's no problem?
Why do almost all the references say that the car was well taken care of?
Why are you still talking about the Accord transmission problem?
Why do you ask the same question over and over and over and ov.....?
Why don't you find another source of information than Consumer Reports?
And most importantly....Why are you still here? I guess you aren't leaving huh?
There's some questions for YOU to dodge there guy.
The people who are here on their own. Why are you also referring to me when there are what 3 or four personal testimonials. I guess they are lying or something huh? You want to talk about funny....I think it's funny to see you ignore those posts and say that I have no more information. It's all around you if you open your eyes.
on Camry topic, and that's where this whole thing get started. However, only one of them is a I4, the other one is a V6. Since in the beginning of this topic, there is a Lexus ES300 owner complained about sludge, just wondering why fxashun won't go to Solara topic and ES300 topic to make the same claim, since they share the same V6 engine. Since I4 engine sells far more than V6 engine (9 v.s. 1 for Camry, probably 7 v.s. 1 after adding Solara and ES300), 1 seized V6 engine proabably weighs 7 times than 1 seized I4 engine. Just wondering what the response will be from the Solara and ES300 owners if they see fxashun's comments???
However, he said his Camry does not have sludge. Just give us enough reports to back up you "most ..." statement (apparently for you 5 or 10 reports out of 3.2 million Camrys is enough for "most ...").
So are you going to continue to say "Most of 92+ Camrys have sludge problem" or not? If not, then it can be the end of discussion.
Can't find any other engine that has the track record of the L4 in the Camry the same hold true for the V6 in the Camry. It doesn't sludge up at the rate that the Camry does. What did you expect me to say? Which goes on the question the "Camry owners are more fanatic" theory. I guess V6 Camry owners either don't care or they don't sludge. Either way that doesn't remove from the fact that the L4 has a marked tendency to sludge. Hmm...You failed to mention those posts that are here that I referred you to. Curious. And you claim I dodge questions. Tsk.Tsk. Here's a few for you.
Why are trying to change the subject to the V6?
When did I(as in Fxashun) say anything about the V6 referring to sludge?
Then why did you?
Why did you try to turn the lack of discussion about the V6 into an argument?
By the way if I run across enough material to warrant discussion of that V6 I'll be sure to post it.
In post 105 I thought I was very clear in what I have been stating. HOOKED ON PHONICS man. I cut and pasted all the way back from Camry 1. YOU are the one who made up the title of this forum not me. I would have said "A high percentage ....show a tendency....without the seize part. That part you made up yourself there Cyw0.
I guess you also didn't read all of Delray's post. Let's get a little cut and paste action here.
It was the service advisor at the Toyota dealership that mentioned the possibility of sludge when I brought the car in with the blue smoke problem. I didn't prompt him; he simply said the first step would be to remove the valve cover to check for sludge. It seems to me that Toyota knows there is a potential problem with the 4-cylinder engine.
Talk about selective reading.
Maybe it's dyslexia. How's this. SCINOHP NO DEKOOH
"Most 92+ Camry have sludge problem" or not? That's why this topic exists and that's why you are here. If yes, give us enough reports out of those 3.2 million Camrys. If not, end of this topic.
You found 5 reports, how many reports you want to count here? 4 even including 210delray? Didn't I always say "those 5 or 10 cases". OK, I will just round it and give you 10, is that enough? Just give us enough reports out of those 3.2 million Camrys.
why are you bother to argue with anyone who doesn't agree to it? If you still support it, then give us enough of reports to back it up. If you won't support it now, like I said it can be the end of this topic. It's just that easy.
If you want to change to "high percentage" or whatever else, just create you own topic. But again, anyone can ask you to give enough reports to support your "high percentage" statement.
I'm just starting to have fun. Like I said before(once again you failed to read)we never actually said the engines WOULD seize but they might. And I have said high percentage at least since post 105 in Camry 1 a long time ago. But I guess you didn't read that.
So since I never said that I don't have to support it.
I have found enough posts to develop reasonable doubt. In a civil case, which this would be considered, I wouldn't have to bring in every Camry owner since 1992. It's totally ignorant of you to think that I would ask every Camry owner that has bought a Camry. I would only have to show that the Camry has a much greater propensity to sludge than any other car. That was easy since Camrys sludge up more than any other modern vehicle.
If you don't think I'm right show me another vehicle with this tendency. You haven't yet and I made that challenge a long time ago.
So in closing I say that no I don't have a million reports of sludged Camrys. But I bet you don't have more than four reports of ANY other single engine that also has sludge.
Comments
IMHO its more likely that oil changes and the oil itself is the culprint in this matters, but a simple advice to check should not be treated like a blasphemy or occur or such.
Problem causes: -- oil change not being frequent enough.
Solution: --
(1) don't wait 7,500 miles between oil changes. But for those who do, please follow the vast majority of the world and change every 3-5 months.
(2) Toyota need to ammend it's owners manual to shorten the oil change intervals.
(3) don't use Pennzoil and Quaker State oil. The additive they put into the oil are known to cause sludge.
(4) As per good car ownership practice. Give your car a quick check ever week or two. Check all the oil level, the fluid levels, and tire pressures.
Do you check the oil level regularly? If so, did you note oil levels within the month after the oil change, but before the problem started? Was there thick blue smoke during the month after the oil change?
And I agree with wenuye about Pennzoil and Quaker State. Here's a story...
Many years ago, while in college, I worked part time in a gas station. Now, this station did a lot of mechanical work.
I was lucky to learn a great deal from one of the best old time type mechanics ever. Bob was from the old school and was, simply the best.
He told about his years as a mechanic in a Cadillac dealership. Upon delivery, they would ask the customer if they wanted Pennzoil or Havoline when the car was brought in for service.
They would mark the record to reflect the customer's choice.
Bob said that back in those days (50's-early 60's)
they would pull the oil pan at 50K and clean it.
He said that the Havoline engines were always spotless and the Pennzoil engines were just filled with sludge!
He also said that the Pennzoil engines would be worn out at around 80,000 miles.
And, once in awhile, we would have a car in for something and pull a valve cover.." Pennzoil engine!" Bob would say, and he was always right!
Now, that was a long time ago, and, to be fair, Pennzoil may be vastly improved.
I won't use it. I still have visions of sludge filled engines.
Good luck to you.
If people does not change oil/filter themselves, and just take the car to a garage or quick lube. After the service, they need to make sure the oil has been changed with new engine oil and have the proper amount. They also need to make sure the filter get changed. I also heard several cases that the drain plug thread and filter thread got damaged by the mechanics. People really should watch while the car being serviced and check again after the service is done.
I don't know how many time I have to say the accord DID have a transmission problem. But this is the sludging Camry topic. I'm not discussing Honda.
It not the fact that I only found 5 to 10 posts about the Camry it the fact that there ARE 5 to 10 posts about the Camry. There is no other engine with as many sludge posts period. I found very few engines that have more than 1 if any. The Camry has a problem.
I thought Wenyue was leavin'.
I have a little bit of mechanical knowledge after rebuilding several automobile engines, the most recent being a 1984 Supra. The sludge you refer to is most likely just the result of the oil additive's reaction with condensation in the engine. This condition is aggravated by infrequent oil changes and lots of short trips which never allow the engine to fully warm up and drive off the condensation. I have not looked at a Camry owners manual, but the other vehicles that I have owned recommend an oil change every 3000 miles for severe service conditions, with numerous short trips of < 5 miles being considered severe service.
There is no way that a buildup of sludge in the valve cover area is going to be a cause for an engine rebuild unless it gets so severe that it plugs the oil drain holes in the head that allow the oil to drain back to the pan. Even if this occurred, I would think that you would develop severe oil leaks around the valve cover gasket prior to any engine damage.
Another reason you are finding more posts about the Camry than other cars is possibly due to the fact that most Toyota owners are so picky about their vehicles, myself included.
Alan
"Toyota policy is to deny service coverage if sludge is found..."
Man, that definitely sounds like a botched up dealer..... I know Toyota salesforce are among the worst in the auto industry as it is with Honda, but is their service dept rank flat bottom too?
The 1st quote does indicates that the person is using Penzoil though, so that may also strengthen the argument that Penzoil/Quaker state is the cause of the sludge?
BTW, what nonsense are you talking about?
arkie6:
Another reason is probably because other brand owner doesnt know how to spread their situation to the internet, or doesnt feel the need to do so
I checked our auction record today and found that of the 15 Camrys that were auctioned in the past couple month over 9 of them had noted sludge. That's enough sludge to where we had to note it on the windshield.
What's meant by spread a situation to the internet? There's an alt.autos.honda with little mention of sludge and there are other automotive newsgroups with no single engine with multiple posts regarding sludge. Any forum regarding Camrys has someone with sludge.
If all you can do is compare this to the Honda transmission problem with every post Wenyue you really are reaching. How many times do I have to say that the Accord DID have a transmission problem in it's V6 models. You wanna do something constructive how about finding posts referring to the 4 cylinder's transmission. Maybe if you find multiple posts regarding THAT car you'll have some information we can debate.
If all anyone can do is say "no there's not" and have nothing else to say....That's weak. Let's see what you have to work with...Honda transmissions, picky owners, oil brand, short trips, and a 1984 Supra???!!!!....Gimme a break. Everything except the Honda transmission and Supra are things that happen to any car and there are no sludge posts about them. And you guys are supposed to be college educated too.
I can easily find 20 or more reports of Accord's transmission problem. So one can either say "accord's transmission problem is wide-spread, and to a less extent, so is Camry's sludge problem", or you can say both are "rare and isolated" (which has been fxashun's line all through those months of defending Honda's repuation). At least one can keep it consistant instead being so clearly biased and double standard for God's sake!
Does any one have any substantial evidence that can refute the fact that MORE THAN 95% OF THE CAMRY ENGINES ARE RUNNING TROUBLE FREE AFTER MORE THAN 9 YEARS? (consumer report) I don't mean few circumstantial problems found by plowing the entire internet. Camry didn't win a bullet proof reputation by every well established sources by having sludged up engine in "most" of them.
p.s I found couple of sludge reports by Accord owners and showed to fxashun, but he failed to mention that of course.
Keep in mind that there ARE ALOT more Camrys on the road than just about any car. So a single report of Saturn/VW/Mazda/Nissan report is easily statistical equivalent of 10-20 Camry reports.
Not saying that there isn't a small % of camrys out there that has sludge problems. But when someone says "most" of them do... well, let's just say I know more than 10 Camry owners within my social circle (camry is a very popular car among Chinese), and either all 10 of them are all lying or lucky as hell, or most Camry engines are very reliable.
But anyway, I remember post #61 and #62 (just posted by fxashun) are two of those 5 previous cases given in post #1. I just hope those same cases won't get "double dipped" (is that the right term?), being posted 1 month ago as a strong evidence, then being posted again 1 month later as another strong evidence.
Is that a good thing to do by reposting those post #1 old cases again (post #61 and #62) and then say "I can find these all day about the Camry" (title of post #63)? And even delete the original post (post #1)?
To be fair, I also find some post regarding Penzoil/Quaker state using wax based oil in and being categorized as class I oil which help sludge buildup, but thats (according to the poster) is a long time ago, and now they used class II oil which supposedly much better...Castrol on the other hand still use class 1 oil.
Also, there's another gentleman that use mobil oil, and still has sludge, so go figures...
Also (geesh)... some of the post indicates sludge build up is possible because the car has been subjected to waaayy too many cold starts and short trip between starts... seems logical to me too.
Anyway, people can draw their own conclusion and I think what wenyue point out (3k regular oil change) should help dissolve the sludge issue.
Post 146:
"Dealer is nuts. No one uses a straight 30 W
anymore, especially new engines. Dealer problably
got one hell of a discount on the oil and needs to
push it. Stick with the multi viscocity oil. I
once informed Toyota that their dealer was not even
offering the recommended weight oil for the car
and they quicly told the dealer to offer it. They
(dealer) had a special deal with Penzoil for a
strange weight and were pushing it."
If this is indeed true, that Toyota dealers have a special deal with Penzoil, then it might be the cause. If you change your oil at the dealer, please find out what oil they are using.
Wenyue- How many ways do I have to say that THE ACCORD V6 DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. If I knew Chinese I would say it that language. I've said that many times but you seem to not be reading it. HOOKED ON PHONICS WORKS. Yes, you did show some Honda sludge reports and not only were they on 2 separate engines they also each explained themselves. In case you don't remember I have said several times that the Camry 2.2 4 cylinder is the ONLY engine that seems to have multiple sludge references. You whole post was just irrelevant BS.
liufei-If you had actually read those links you would have not used them.
The VW links were for air.cooled VW engines as in the engine in the Beetle up to 1974!!!???
The Nissan link only mentions sludge.
The Mazda post has all kinds of issues in addition to the sludge.> excessive fuel consumption
> small chronic coolant loss
> excessive oil consumption
> premature oil breakdown
> engine vibration
> clattering valves
> low rpm hesitation
> lack of power in all rpm ranges
The Saturn link is about an engine cleaning service. It didn't say that the car actually has sludge.
And the Jeep is a 1989 but I may be willing to give you that one if you can find other posts implicating this engine.
You obviously also didn't read my last post. I said that the 92+ 4 cylinder Camry is the ONLY car that has MULTIPLE posts concerning cars that actually have sludge. You can deny it. You can post BS. An that fact will still remain. There are several posts concerning cars with sludge it's just that the Camry is the most prolific.
Also of that 30,000 how many were paint sludge, pond sludge, chemical sludge?
Well, i found one sludge issue with a 95 camry:
http://looksmart.remarq.com/looksmart/transcript.asp?g=&tn=10000009&sh=0015b4cd22c992cd&str=sludge&idx=0
At the bottom, someone suggested switching to synthetic oil, change oil more often and after 3-4 changes, it should remove the sludge. So I guess frequent oil change does prevent sludge, which mean sluge buildup is due to long time between oil changes? I do wonder if just switching to synthetic and changing oil frequently will remove the existing sludge buildup? Dont they have to clean the pan,gasket and stuff?
Can you or can you not disprove the fact that MORE THAN 95% CAMRY'S ENGINE ARE TROUBLE FREE EVEN AFTER 9+ YEARS?! You can come up sling all the mud, and dig up the entire internet, you still can't show more than just few circumstantial cases.
Is Camry a perfect car? No. Do few of them have sludge? Yes. But do "MOST" 92+ camry engine suffer sluge problem. NO! Not unless you call less than 5% problem rate after 9 year "most". Besides Lexus SC300/400, you can't find a more reliable engine, in fact, most engine have worst reliability. Want to trade?
Also. Let me quote you (and remind you) on the subject regarding Accord's transmisson problem:
From Leganza 2:
post 169 -- "Luckily not that many Accords
were affected and of that few the number if
dissatisfied customers should be minimal."
post 175 -- "It didn't effect that
many vehicles and Honda voluntarily repaired them."
Oh, so you say the more numerous reports of Accord's tranmssion problem (on Edmund's alone) stand for "... Not that many..." and "...few...". And then you turn around and say the few reports (after you digging up the entire internet, mind you), stands for "most 92+" have problems.
Can we say "DOUBLE STANDARD?" You either say both of them are "most", or "few" for both. You can't use double standard to suit your purpose.
Also, while you are busy bashing Daewoo in the Daewoo forum (what were you doing in a Daewoo forum in the first place?), during a debate of Korean vs Japanese quality, you used Camry as an example of Japanese cars's quality. Post 177. "Even if 10% of
the Camrys produced had a problem that would be
40,000 cars a year. They would NOT be the standard bearer if they produced the equivalent of the entire years production of Daewoo of poor quality. " Oh, now you say that any problem is less than 10% in Camry (hence indeed not MOST). You seem to like to say whatever suits your argument at that time.
Look I think we heard enough from you. You can drop the double standard, or triple standard, or whatever number of standard you have. You can either disprove the fact that Camry engine is more than 95% trouble free even after 9 year, or you can stop saying "most" camry has sludge problems. Since you insisted the more numerous reports of Accord transmission problem is "few", then I'm sure you will agree that the few reports of Camry sludge is "fewer". Right?
Exaggerating the extent of the problem isn't helping anyone. Try to help the very few who do have problem instead.
I had quite a bit of fun reading the "spirited" discussions. I really do not have an opinion about the vehicles mentioned or their problems. I do however want to make a few comments.
About the 1%, 10%. I seriously doubt that even 1% of people with problems post them on Edmunds. All you have to do to prove this is take a vehicle with a known problem, (TSBs' are a good place to start). Find out the total production for the vehicle in question, and compare it to the number of posts on Edmunds. I would be VERY surprised if this number exceeded 1%. A better way to do it would be to calculate the percentage based on the Edmunds population, eg. how many of the Edmunds brand X owners have a problem compared to the total number of Edmunds brand X owners.
Probably 90%, (or pick your number), of consumers are truly clueless when it comes to their cars. The people on Edmunds are the most knowlegeable and involved segment of the car owner population, yet probably represent only a fractional percentage of the car driving population. Therefore it is quite possible that a common problem could go unnoticed by a vast majority of the population.
Brand loyalty/bias is also a consideration. The stronger a persons loyalty and/or bias toward a brand is, the more likely the person is going to be in a denial state of mind towards problems with their object of lust. This is a very normal basic human behavior.
Having said all this, I believe that the major factor preventing determination of problems lies in the cluelessness of the average consumer with a small contribution by the brand loyalty/bias issue.
IMHO
Hmm, interesting point. Ok, take your number and let's adjust to allow greater error in the real world. So if only 10% of the people are knoledgable about cars. Then let's increase the reported % by a factor of 10.
Camry sludge problem: 0.0719% x 10 = 0.719% real world.
Accord transmission problem: 0.316% x 10 = 3.16% real world.
Still, neither of those problem qualify as affecting "most" cars.
I agree that many people are clueless about their car. I heard this from a Toyota dealer. One woman turned in her Camry who's engine seized at 44,000 miles. The reason? She never changed the oil (she didn't know she had to). It really shows that there are some clueless people out there.
I more or less agree that I would guess that only 10% of the car owners actually have a good amount of knowledge about cars. The hard part is determining how much does one has to know about cars to qualify as a knoledgable sort.
aquatic: You are another person who reported to have sludge that uses Penzoil. The oil is known to cause sludge forumation in many different brand of cars. I would suggest that you switch to another brand (besides Quaker State) in the future. Good luck.
Some comments: My user name 210delray comes from a mid to late 50s Chevy model; I don't live in Florida but rather Virginia. But Chevrolet undoubtedly took the model name from the Florida beach.
I did NOT have sludge in my '97 Camry, just blue smoke on startup, caused by worn valve stem seals, which allowed oil to enter the cylinders. I DID follow Toyota's severe service recommendation for oil changes, which for the 1997s is 5000 miles (not 3000 miles).
It was the service advisor at the Toyota dealership that mentioned the possibility of sludge when I brought the car in with the blue smoke problem. I didn't prompt him; he simply said the first step would be to remove the valve cover to check for sludge. It seems to me that Toyota knows there is a potential problem with the 4-cylinder engine.
Wenyue, your point about Consumer Reports is well taken. I have put a lot of trust in their reliability surveys (and I fill out mine every year), but I think Fxashun also has a good point that the consumer has to be AWARE of a problem in order to report it. It was just by chance that I saw the blue smoke from my car -- only because I was looking from the street when another family member started the Camry in our driveway. But I couldn't see the smoke myself when I started the car another time -- someone else had to watch from outside. And the car ran and sounded fine.
About Pennzoil - yes, I used it at first (and for years before in my older cars - no engine problems with them!) Then I switched to Texaco and Mobil. I think Pennzoil is getting a bum rap -- does anyone out there have any recent proof that it's worse than others? (Isellhondas: your story about the old mechanic was fascinating, but you're right that today's oils are vastly different -- in terms of additives -- from those of the late 50s and early 60s.)
Over heating is one contributing factor. But bad oil filter and bad engine oil is another. Penzoil is (was?) known to cause sludge because of the additive they put in. It's something called "paraphin" (not sure about the spelling), I think it was used to increase the viscosity of the oil. But it also known to gum up your engine and cause sludge. I will look into the matter further.
How Often?
The long-time mantra of auto mechanics has been to change your oil every 3,000 miles. Most automakers recommend an oil change every 7,500 miles (and a specific time interval) for "normal" driving, and every 3,000 miles for "severe" driving (frequent trips of less than four or five miles, stop-and-go traffic, extended idling, towing a trailer, or dusty or extremely cold conditions). Many motorists' driving falls into one or more of those "severe" categories.
In our survey, almost two-thirds of our readers said they had their oil changed every 3,000 miles or less. They may be following the thinking expressed by one of our staffers: "I have my oil changed every 3,000 miles because that's what my father did, and all his cars lasted for many years." To determine whether frequent oil changes really help, we changed the oil in three cabs every 3,000 miles, using Pennzoil 10W-30. After 60,000 miles, we compared those engines with those from our base tests of the same oil, changed every 6,000 miles. We saw no meaningful differences...
The bottom line: Modern motor oils needn't be changed as often as oils did years ago. More frequent oil changes won't hurt your car, but you could be spending money unnecessarily and adding to the nation's energy and oil-disposal problems. Even in the severe driving conditions that a New York City taxi endures, we noted no benefit from changing the oil every 3,000 miles rather than every 6,000. If your driving falls into the "normal" service category, changing the oil every 7,500 miles (or at the automaker's suggested intervals) should certainly provide adequate protection. (We recommend changing the oil filter with each oil change.)
I think my downfall with the 1994 Camry is that my wife drives very short distances so she had frequent cold starts and short distances contributed to sludge. I noticed on toyotas website http://www.toyota.com/ that their maintenance schedule recommends oil changes every 5,000 to 7,500 miles too.
Anyway...I have answered every question it's you who obviously in dire need of ritalin or something so you can comprehend. If all you have done is open your consumer reports and found those tired statistics you once again "need to get out more". There are more people every week coming in here saying they have had a sludged Camry just like I said there would be.
I like the fact that you have to go into an entirely different topic to find stuff to use in here. It good to know that you put this issue so high on your life's priority list even though you have claimed to be leaving three or four times now. Why don't you trot on back over to those early Leganza posts and you'll read why I'm in that forum.
As far as my "double standard" I defended Honda until we found that...here we go again...THE V6 HONDA DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. Geez...You are about clueless. Like I said if you find a widespread problem with the 4 cylinder Accord tranny maybe we can debate that or maybe that there are present problems with the Accord transmission. I'll say that one more time for the slow ones out there THE V6 ACCORD DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. This is starting to sound like a discussion with cyw0. Repetition,
repetition. If the Accord problem is all you have to debate with you should abide by your previous statements and be "outta here" because this is the Camry sludge topic.
Sling mud????Bash???I have not bashed the Camry...There are two presently in my family. I think it's time I restate my true assertion because the name of this topic is not what I said. It was a sarcastic statement by Cywo.
"I don't recall Mitsu (AcuraGrl) ever saying that the sludge problem would cause engines to fail. She only said that the engines do have a tendency to sludge. Especially after high miles. Maybe if you change your oil every 3000 miles it won't but if the manual says change it every 5000-7500 miles it should not be necessary."
I clearly said that the engines probably would not fail only that they have a tendency to sludge. As far as "most or "high percentage" that's subjective I guess so whatever.
So here we go: In my experience I have found that a high percentage of higher mileage Camry 2.2L 4 cylinder engine have sludge build-up to some extent. I suggest that anyone looking to purchase a higher mileage Camry (80,000+) check the oil cap and inner valve cover for a black substance coating the insides.
That's what I have said all along.
Liufei:Deja goes back at least a couple years. You have to refine your search options. Go back and check again. But you still aren't getting my point. I said the Camry 4 cylinder is the only engine with multiple (as in many) references to sludge. I don't mean just references I mean people who say that their engine HAS sludge. There are several here on edmunds. Heck there are 2 or three at least so far in here.
As my calculation have show, there are more reports of Accord's transission problem (about 4 times more), than Camry's sludge problem.
What I have a problem is that you (as I have quoted your own words) down played the number of Accord's transmission problem by calling them "very few". And then, turns around and called the Camry's problem "most 92+ camry". That's where I have a problem.
Can we get the numbers straight here? And use one standard? So if you called the 20+ reports of Accord's problem "very few", then anyone would reason the 5 reports of Camry's sludge problme is "even fewer". I don't see how you go from "very few" to "most". Numbers isn't biased, they are just numbers.
I'll say that again. If Camrys really have a design problem. We will easily find reports everywhere, not just that 5 cases after searching the whole net. Those (3.2 millions - 5) Camrys owners are definitely not just lucky compared to those 5 owners. And anyone with car knowledge knows that maintenance (oil/filter change) is the key factor to the sludge problem.
I already did in post 13 and 21. And probably many times before that. I'm going to save myself a lot of typing by referring you to posts where I have already explained your repetitious questions. Like I've said before, you got nothing to say.
You want to talk about dodging questions though. I have a few for you.
Why is the Camry the only car with so many sludge references?
Why don't other cars have this tendency? Not even the Corrolla or older Camrys before they changed the engine.
Why do you refer all of you posts to me when there are now others who also have sludge testimonials here?
Why are there others with sludge testimonials in here if there's no problem?
Why do almost all the references say that the car was well taken care of?
Why are you still talking about the Accord transmission problem?
Why do you ask the same question over and over and over and ov.....?
Why don't you find another source of information than Consumer Reports?
And most importantly....Why are you still here? I guess you aren't leaving huh?
There's some questions for YOU to dodge there guy.
Hi there to all of you that have e-mailed me.:-)
You want to talk about funny....I think it's funny to see you ignore those posts and say that I have no more information. It's all around you if you open your eyes.
pun not intended.
So are you going to continue to say "Most of 92+ Camrys have sludge problem" or not? If not, then it can be the end of discussion.
Hmm...You failed to mention those posts that are here that I referred you to. Curious. And you claim I dodge questions. Tsk.Tsk.
Here's a few for you.
Why are trying to change the subject to the V6?
When did I(as in Fxashun) say anything about the V6 referring to sludge?
Then why did you?
Why did you try to turn the lack of discussion about the V6 into an argument?
By the way if I run across enough material to warrant discussion of that V6 I'll be sure to post it.
I guess you also didn't read all of Delray's post. Let's get a little cut and paste action here.
It was the service advisor at the Toyota
dealership that mentioned the possibility of sludge when I brought the car in with the blue smoke problem. I didn't prompt him; he simply said the first step would be to remove the valve cover to check for sludge. It seems to me that Toyota knows there is a potential problem with the 4-cylinder engine.
Talk about selective reading.
Maybe it's dyslexia. How's this. SCINOHP NO DEKOOH
You found 5 reports, how many reports you want to count here? 4 even including 210delray? Didn't I always say "those 5 or 10 cases". OK, I will just round it and give you 10, is that enough? Just give us enough reports out of those 3.2 million Camrys.
If you want to change to "high percentage" or whatever else, just create you own topic. But again, anyone can ask you to give enough reports to support your "high percentage" statement.
So since I never said that I don't have to support it.
I have found enough posts to develop reasonable doubt. In a civil case, which this would be considered, I wouldn't have to bring in every Camry owner since 1992. It's totally ignorant of you to think that I would ask every Camry owner that has bought a Camry. I would only have to show that the Camry has a much greater propensity to sludge than any other car. That was easy since Camrys sludge up more than any other modern vehicle.
If you don't think I'm right show me another vehicle with this tendency. You haven't yet and I made that challenge a long time ago.
So in closing I say that no I don't have a million reports of sludged Camrys. But I bet you don't have more than four reports of ANY other single engine that also has sludge.