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2009 Mazda5

ptien_vaptien_va Member Posts: 3
edited April 2014 in Mazda
Does anyone have confirmed information regarding the US version of the 2009 Mazda5? I have read rumors but have not seeing anything solid. I figure for a car that is going to be released in 8-10 months there would be some info out there!

Comments

  • coolmazda5coolmazda5 Member Posts: 525
    Good luck and keep us posted. If for the 2008 we just knew 2-3 months before, and it just got a facelift this year, I doubt there will be information soon. I think Mazda USA will be very very busy with the Mazda6 launch, one of the cash cows...
  • ericdsericds Member Posts: 4
    I'm also awaiting a date. The power doors are one of the key elements of the facelift. My wagon should hold a bit longer but I'd love an early release rather than later.
    Maybe things like the Chevy Safira are an indicator of mini-minivans coming to the US market.
  • coolmazda5coolmazda5 Member Posts: 525
    Is it confirmed that the Zafira is coming? Thaaat is a sweet ride. Seen it in Europe, it is just great. funny thing it does not have sliding doors, which is a big plus on the Mazda5 IMO.

    2008s are selling well w/o marketing so I'm almost sure the 2009 will make it here. As per power doors, the standard ones are so light I doubt they will have them, also, Mazda will be doing a lot of campaigning for the new Mazda6 so that will keep them busy :surprise: for sure...

    image
  • coolmazda5coolmazda5 Member Posts: 525
    Thanks for the Zafira tip :D. Yeah only the Rondo and the Mazda5 are around here so far. This article comments caught my eye:

    It’s the same approach used for the only other such vehicles on the American scene, the Mazda 5 and Kia Rondo, each a five-seater.


    However, we suspect final pricing will be somewhat lower and maybe sweetened with incentives, this to match the competition and because mini-minivans have yet to catch on with U.S. consumers. Indeed, both the Rondo and Mazda 5 are hardly flying off the lots, with respective sales around 24,000 and 14,000 for the first 11 months of 2007.


    Rondo can get up to 7 seats and the Mazda5 is 6, weird
    Also, this year is selling very well after the facelift. I'm not sure that they will make 2 facelifts in a short period of time though.

    Yes, Premacy in Japan and the Mazda5 in Europe and Asia offer power doors since 2005, but I think the article is right on one thing: price needs to be lower in NA. Keeping that on mind things like power doors may not make for models here to remain competitive on price. I mentioned somewhere here that last year I stopped by at a Mazda dealer in Germany. A Mazda5 "Top" (kind of a Touring here) was 27100 Euros! For that money power doors should be a must :D

    Allright, best of luck! I own a 2006 and a 2008 Mazda5s, so I doubt 2009 will be a time to trade-in any :D
  • jonat1xjonat1x Member Posts: 34
    Currently owning a 2008 Touring, successor to two Previas and a Windstar (total aberration mandated by wife) I think that a power door system would be utterly superfluous - these doors operate so smoothly that my 8-year old mastered it in minutes. I feel like a shill for Mazda, but I'm finding that this is an all-round extraordinary vehicle. After a couple of months during which the reality check should have arrived, the bass response on the stereo is my only issue with it.
  • ericdsericds Member Posts: 4
    I'm looking for the power doors for a special reason. I use a manual wheelchair. I'm hoping to fold the chair and pull into the car. The power doors would allow me to close them remotely.
    I may remove the drivers side rear seat or install some system that lets me fod it backwards, since the seat back only folds down rather than than the whole assembly folding forward.
  • jonat1xjonat1x Member Posts: 34
    I can't picture the maneuver but it might still be worth your while to visit your dealer. These doors have a great mechanism and basically close themselves - in fact, the manual describes a hands-off technique, letting them close themselves. It is a small cabin, though - not a lot of room for a wheelchair, even folded.
  • wardwwardw Member Posts: 10
    I have a 2007 Mazda5 and I also use a manual wheelchair. The reason I bought the car was because I could fold the wheelchair, tip it back, and slide it between the drivers seat and the second row seat. I have enough stability standing to be able to do this. The folded wheelchair does fit between the seats. To take it out, I roll it out, leting the rear wheels down to the ground. I never have to lift the wheelchair. I have no trouble with the sliding doors as they are light and open and close without a problem.
  • ptien_vaptien_va Member Posts: 3
    Okay, can we get the focus back on the entire 2009 Mazda5 and not just the possible power sliding doors? Any one get any leaked info yet? I contacted Mazda and they said they have no information they can release to the public. Grrrrr! :mad:
    My fear is I buy the 2008 5 and then three months later they announce the bigger/better specs for the 2009 model and a Mazda5 Speed edition.
  • coolmazda5coolmazda5 Member Posts: 525
    Mazda5 Speed edition

    LOL, would be great, but no. Mazda NA is running the Mazda5 message as economical, great family hauler and without sacrificing handling and fun-to-drive. A turbo engine like the ones for the MazdaSpeed3 or MazdaSpeed6 will bring the MPG really down plus may not be a good seller for such a small market niche.

    It might be more attractive to sell in Japan or Europe though but the new Mazda6 will keep them busy at least through 2009.
  • motormopemotormope Member Posts: 1
    Has anyone seen anything indicating an engine upgrade (the new 2.5L) and/or ESC for the 2009 Mazda5?
  • ericdsericds Member Posts: 4
    My local dealer said September release for the 09.
    Who knows...
  • coolmazda5coolmazda5 Member Posts: 525
    Other forum posted the Canada specs for 2009. No ESC nor 2.5L, changes in packages and colors only.
  • athenasiusathenasius Member Posts: 118
    what is the link to the other forum? please (just to prove i am Canadian and oh ever so polite eh lol ) ;)
  • chiefbongochiefbongo Member Posts: 10
    I'd read rumors of a new engine that got 1 mpg better gas mileage and added a few more horses to boot. I was driving past a Mazda dealership and decided to get a firsthand look at the interior and let my 3 year old clamber around in it.

    The sales guy confirmed that the 2009 would have a new, improved engine. But, generally, details on other features are few and far between.

    I'm in the burbs north of Seattle. We get rain like 200 days a year and a few days of light snow here and there. The 5 doesn't offer AWD or even traction control, so I'm wondering if they might be upgrading the safety features for 2009. I like the 5, but if they don't step up their game on safety, it's going to be a hard sell to the wife.
  • wp746911wp746911 Member Posts: 26
    Where are these rumors from? I would be interested in knowing if there was any solid information what the mazda5 will have in 2009. I guess I could just wait until September to see, but curious if someone knows...
  • bargainseekerbargainseeker Member Posts: 18
    According to this press release, the Mazda5 will have minimal changes for 2009. According to it, the only changes for 2009 will be:

    "New Liquid Silver exterior color to replace Sunlight Silver (late availability)
    Sand interior color now available with Stormy Blue and Brilliant Black exterior colors."

    Since we will not buy a family vehicle without Electronic Stability Control, that rules out the Mazda5 for us for at least another year.
  • coolmazda5coolmazda5 Member Posts: 525
    yeah, that was my guess. The Mazda3 and the Mazda6 will keep Mazda busy at least for one more year. No ESC, that's OK...
  • autoholic75autoholic75 Member Posts: 9
    NO ESC = NO MAZDA5 FOR ME

    This should have been my first Mazda purchase and the start of a long valuable consumer relationship between Mazda and me. Instead, this glaring lack of proper, soon to be mandated, safety feature technology has bittered this consumer to the core. After patiently waiting, and taking the time to personally write (by both s-mail and e-mail way back in Feb) all explaining the expectations of ESC in the ’09 model; I am utterly disappointed they have stuck with the status quo; ignoring my (and many others) call for an updated M5 with ESC.

    I am sure that by the time Mazda sees right; there will be lots of new space wagons as competition here in the US. Look for new products in late ’09-’10, that will surely all come with ESC standard. GM, Subaru, Honda and others are all rumored to have Mazda5 class competition under development. With the cost of fuel on the rise, and a move to smaller more efficient autos already apparent - this niche segment will expand rapidly. Mazda, who was poised to strike while the fire was hot, with an outstanding product in the Mazda5 (save the obvious oversight of no ESC) will blow this perfect opportunity to become a leader in a new segment. No, instead they have settled for a sub par safety reputation; choosing the easy road, the lazy road, the road that leads to mediocrity.

    For me, I will move on to something else for my purchase. I cannot continue to wait for Mazda USA to wake up… a different brand for me, for sure. Likely, I will be less passionate about its shape and size than I was about the 5 - but at least I will be confident in it safety performance; which is the bottom line for first time parents – purchasing a car for their first new baby.

    Mazda… you’re dead to me.
  • chiefbongochiefbongo Member Posts: 10
    You know, I was thinking that way. But then I thought the auto safety statistics might be something like some of scare tactics the pharmaceutical industry uses to get you to buy medicine you don't need. And while ESC/DSC is a decent value add, the real statistics might surprise you.

    I wrote an article titled
    "Is Electronic Stability Control Worth It?". It doesn't say that it is or isn't. It goes into what your actual odds of an injury accident or fatal accident are, how the odds are influenced by ESC/DSC, and what your cost differential would be between the Mazda 5 and a Toyota Sienna. Then it's up to you to make up your mind.

    Here's a quote... "They claim it will save 10,000 lives a year. In a population of 300,000,000, that puts your odds of being in the group of people whose lives were saved by Electronic Stability Control at 1 in 30,000 in any given year. If you're not in that 1 in 30,000 group, either you weren't in an accident at all, you weren't in a potentially fatal accident, or you were in a fatal accident, but you were one of the 20,000+ people who would still die anyway, Electronic Stability Control or not."

    I ended up deciding that the Mazda 5 would be an okay choice. It really doesn't have much more cargo room than a Honda CRV, but the small size, sliding doors, and captain's chairs in the first two rows make it easier to fit into a tight garage, yet still get two little kids into the rear seats without having to back out first.

    Last, worth noting... I have a new baby due in November. It will be our second, and I've been looking at the 5 as an upgrade from my 5-door. My current car has neither stability control or ABS (the 5 has ABS), but I carted first kid around in it in the snow without ever feeling it wasn't safe enough.

    But, then again, I don't have a lead foot, I maintain a more-than-safe following distance to ensure I have plenty of reaction time, and I don't take my eye off the road while in motion, which probably puts me in a group of 1 in 30,000 drivers all by itself.
  • coolmazda5coolmazda5 Member Posts: 525
    I understand your concern, but I think Mazda is not too worried of missing potential buyers today. The car keeps on selling like pancakes with ZERO advertising, there have not been any Mazda5 bad news related to the lack of ESC on the car since launched 3+ years ago (it is very well designed with low gravity center) and production is on full steam (they are named one of the fastest movers on the lots and dealers cannot get enough of them) so by the time it really sees it as a sales threat with ESC they'll just put one on (or just wait until is mandatory and put it in)...
  • autoholic75autoholic75 Member Posts: 9
    I hear what your saying and I would tend to agree with you that it might be a logical option to offer a choice of leaving DSC out…. say if cost was a concern. Maybe a manufacturer wants to provide discount pricing on a model to entice consumers who might otherwise shop models at a lower price point. So for some, who just want get into the segment, DSC may not be that critical and could be removed – not for me, but I understand the logic. However, to leave it entirely off a model, not even as a premium option, makes no sense at all; especially in a family hauler. This car is a mini-van for peat’s sake! Who builds a mini-van with without stability control? no one but Mazda.

    For me this DSC thing is not an option. I made a decision long ago that my next car for my new family, would be a new one, with all the latest in safety features that money can buy, especially stability control (ESC/DSC). Basically, it comes down to a personal experience. Back 15 years ago, when I was just a kid, I lost control of a car at highway speeds and nearly paid the ultimate price. You would be amazed at how your priorities shift once you have spent nine days in intensive care. Lucky for me, I came out of it all just fine in the end – probably learned a valuable lesson as a teenager – to respect speed at an early age. Before you write me off to negligent teenage driving, know that I wasn’t… just simply avoiding an animal on the hwy. Also, prior to my accident I had 6 years of go-cart racing experience; and at the time, I thought I knew how to handle a vehicle in a dynamic situation. I had plenty of experience for sure. But no one can maintain 100% awareness all of the time – and even the best drivers in the world make mistakes.

    I do agree that safe driving skills are fundamental for staying out of accidents. As coolmazda stated so well, all the safety system acronyms combined cannot protect a careless driver from themselves. I agree. But I am an engineer by profession, and by nature, I take nothing for granted when it comes to safety. The more, the better. For my loved ones, I want the state of the art; particularly since I don’t expect that I will be the one driving this car most of the time. Today’s family hauler eventually becomes JR’s crappy cruiser (people always forget this).

    To top it all off, the DSC software and equipment have already been developed, deployed and tested on this model for all the other markets. Corporate Mazda USA executive, in their infinite wisdom, decided (I imagine in some expensive Southern California board room where the weather is always perfect and nobody at the table even knows what black ice is) …they decided that stability control is not worth bringing to the US consumers – that we somehow do not deserve/care for the very best in modern safety technology. So now Mazda USA decides to spend more money and more time to redesign and re-spec the US bound M5 units, so they can be sold in a sub-standard state. Ultimately, any cost savings made by removing the DSC parts for US markets are likely offset by the redesign, re-spec, re-certification costs incurred. So they spend more to offer less? This does not even account for the damage done to brand reputation and the obvious loss of sales to discerning customers who insist on DSC, like me.

    This is not rocket science. Family cars need safety first.
    Mazda USA blew it.
  • maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    "Ultimately, any cost savings made by removing the DSC parts for US markets are likely offset by the redesign, re-spec, re-certification costs incurred. So they spend more to offer less?"

    Nice scenario,but I doubt it plays out that way.

    1st, you made the assumption that the car was designed, specified and certified with DSC and then removed.
    2nd, you assume that the market segment consists of individuals just like you, with the same desires, background and priorities.
    3rd, you assume that decisions are made based on key individual's (in this case, executives on surfboards) desires and not those of the consumer.

    Having worked in marketing for a while, here's my simplified guess of how it goes:
    1st, federal regulations are met.
    2nd, a list of popular equipment of the segment is outlined.
    3rd, a list of "delight" items are added with the aid of review clinic and survey data.
    4th, steps 2 and 3 are fed through a financial equation. Every item on a car is assigned a dollar amount and then weighed based on what the market will accept.

    $500 may not sound like much for someone with that item as a top priority, but for the person who's priority is being able to plug in an iPod or have a flat folding cargo area, that $500 may be a huge turn off.

    Marketing is not a perfect science, but until a customer can configure a product and have it ready the same day, it is what it is.
  • mbros2kmbros2k Member Posts: 71
    Mazda5 fans have been asking for DSC for how long? The only explanation for leaving it off is that some exec at Mazda, or more likely Ford, is extremely stubborn and stupid. Meanwhile, potential sales move elsewhere. Some day the Mazda 5 will be discontinued for lack of sales, and the same exec will blame the market and us fickle consumers as he collects his 10 million dollar paycheck.
  • coolmazda5coolmazda5 Member Posts: 525
    I think we have kick this item to death and you are stretching your Mazda5 fans comments. I'm not defending Mazda for the lack of DSC on the Mazda5, but if the decision is from a stubborn and stupid exec, I think GM, Ford and Chrysler need some of those to push their sales as Mazda has done like here :D

    http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/jul2008/bw20080711_125369.htm'

    Also read and reply here, I think it would make more sense:
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f18986c/46
  • chiefbongochiefbongo Member Posts: 10
    The assumption that some exec is stubborn and stupid ignores the realities of manufacturing. Just as the assumption that they "removed" the feature from the European version of the 5 for the U.S. market.

    Every time you make a change in a model, you need to retool part of the assembly line and train the workers to install the new part. This costs money and takes time. If their projections don't show a good enough return on investment for that retooling and retraining, then it doesn't happen unless required by the government.

    If you want something else, consider the Dodge caravan. The base model comes with a 175 hp 3.3 liter V6, it has DSC and traction control, and at 17/24, it has the highest mileage rating in the minivan segment after the 5. If you figure a 70/30 highway/city split, you'll see a 21.9 MPG average vs. 25.2 for the automatic transmission on the 5. At $4.01 a gallon for gas and driving 13,000 miles a year, your gas costs on the Caravan would be around $26 a month higher.

    Since Dodge is doing $4,000 customer cash ($2,000 general + $2,000 for some trucks and the Caravan) to get the '08 models off the lot by September. If you buy a base '08 model now, you're looking at a price around $1,500-2,000 lower than the automatic transmission 5 sport, which covers the gas price differential for 4-5 years.

    So if your reason for a 5 is price, Dodge is competitive now. If it's mileage, they're offering the second best mileage in the segment. If it's safety, they're offering more safety features. Plus you get a third row that a 6' tall man can sit in comfortably.

    If your reason for picking a Mazda is the car-like feel when you drive, well, that's unique. According to the model specifications on Edmunds, the 5 has a tighter "turning circle" at 34.8 feet than a Porsche Boxter (36.4) or a Mercedes Benz C-class (35.6), while the Caravan pulls a 38 foot turning circle, which is wider than the Honda Oddyssey (36.7) or the Toyota Sienna (36.8), but less than the Chevy Uplander (39.4), Kia Sedona (38.2), Nissan Quest (40), or Hyundai (39.6).

    Also, though the Dodge has 22 more horses, it's pulling more weight, so the Mazda's engine is likely to be peppier.

    And last, there's the reputation for being a car you'll quit before it quits on you that Mazda has but Dodge doesn't really pull off.

    So if price and safety features are your biggest triggers, check out Dodge during the next 3 weeks or so.
  • mbros2kmbros2k Member Posts: 71
    Yeah, like anyone in their right mind would buy a Chrysler (by Cerebus) product.
  • prosendprosend Member Posts: 7
    I bought a 2008 Gt and I really could have cared less about ESC. I don't even know if my other cars have had it before. I mean how would I even know I am missing it? I have had a lot of German cars, is that something they have?

    This cars drives as well as my Audi 5000 which had AWD. It is really great and feels really safe. We have driving it up and down the east coast loaded to the gills and no problems.

    Again...how would I know if I am missing something when everything else is so great?
  • utherjorgeutherjorge Member Posts: 13
    It's a wonder we were able to ever drive without ESC.

    ESC is not a cure for all that ails the automotive world, just as airbags and anti-lock brakes before them.

    To rule out a car without it, and then say that that car company is dead to you, well, enjoy your Chrysler. Or Kia. Etc.

    Dave
  • phatlipboardzphatlipboardz Member Posts: 30
    Well I have test driven the Mazda 5 with all three of my kids with car seats (3, 22mos, 3 mos.) I have searched these boards and have read a few stories about others with three kids and their decision to buy this car.

    First, I love the way the car drives and so does my wife (important). We are both average height and our kids are still small and we don't plan on them being tall either. Although our needs will change in a few years anyway. The car just fits our lifestyle of minimizing the excess. In Colorado it is pretty much the norm to have a cargo/rocket box on your car anyway.

    We would be using the car for mostly around town and we really don't do a lot of driving anyway. No long road trips except for a few up to the mountains to hit the slopes, but this isn't a significant distance.

    There are several double umbrella types of strollers on the market and with the money saved on purchase price and fuel, some of these additions can be justified (cargo box, different stroller, etc) This thing certainly doesn't hold too much with all of the seats up, but everyone fits and we do have one extra seat to play with.

    Thanks to the folks on the Mazda 24/7 forum I have seen the capabilities of this car. These folks have taken pictures of just about every scenario.

    Anyway, I like the all around concept of saving money from the purchase and the savings that are passed on in the fuel economy. This car will definitely be a great second car, but don't know if it would be better to purchase now while the kids are small, and then move it over to the "second" spot if for some reason we need a bigger car once we are lugging around our kids, their friends, and other the other accessories.

    I am contemplating pulling the trigger on an odyssey lease (would purchase the 5), but I'm having a hard time justifying this much car at this stage in my life.

    Any thoughts or real world experience in this department?

    What refueled it is that I have a bunch of emails in today that say the dealers here are getting more 09s in next week.
  • chiefbongochiefbongo Member Posts: 10
    Honestly, I tried the Odyssey and didn't really like the way the seating worked. Look at the Sienna if you need something bigger.
  • autoholic75autoholic75 Member Posts: 9
    Just bought my brand new Sienna and I love it!
    Got an '08 LE in Blue Mirage Metallic last Friday.
    Dual powered sliding doors, enough room to load a full sheet of plywood, front passenger seat folds for long internal cargo and...
    STABILITY CONTROL!

    I like the Mz5 a lot (agree it drives tighter & feels more nimble), but with only a slight increase in MPG over the Sienna (seems like it should be better), the extra room and convenience of the Toyota cannot be beat. With three kids it would seem to me that the Mz5 might be a bit tight on room.

    I also got mine with 0% for 60 months - and then even the payment difference was negligible between the two... no real finance deals to be had with the Mz5 right now.

    I looked hard at both and was leaning toward the Mz5... but in the end NO DSC killed it for me.
  • 5_more5_more Member Posts: 43
    I own both an 8-seat Sienna and a Mazda 5.

    The Sienna's 8-seat arrangement works well 3 with kids. The back seat in mine is rarely used.

    The Mazda 5 works well for 3 kids too.

    The gas mileage difference between the Sienna and 5 is about 5 mpg.

    The Sienna is MUCH faster.
    The Mazda 5 handles MUCH better.

    I ruled the Odyssey out because of local Honda dealers' arrogance, the dysfunctional 8th seat, and its less than stellar transmission history (possibly resolved with the 5-speed).
  • phatlipboardzphatlipboardz Member Posts: 30
    Glad to actually hear that you own both. At some point in the foreseeable future I see us owning a traditional van/suv and the Mazda 5. I am just trying to figure out which one to get first. There is also a difference in that I am going to lease the van vs. buying the Mazda, but still a car payment of course.

    Thanks for the input. It is much appreciated.
  • 5_more5_more Member Posts: 43
    Why lease either one?

    Have you run the numbers beyond just the monthly payment?

    It depends on your circumstances, but if you can afford both vehicles, regardless of the financial method you choose to employ, I'd be surprised if it makes financial sense to lease either one. Perhaps there is some tax advantage related to a business arrangement?

    For around town, I'd pick the 5, unless you buy large things like plywood, furniture and so on.

    There is a safety difference between the two vehicles -- especially for 3rd row occupants during a rear-end collision.
  • jonat1xjonat1x Member Posts: 34
    In some markets, Mazda is offering 0% financing with nothing down on new vehilces, including 2009s - worth checking out.
  • dr_whodr_who Member Posts: 8
    I have an '07 sport, manual. My wife and I have four children (1, 5, 8, & 11). We use our Mazda 5 for almost all local driving (100 miles, or less) and the six of us are comfortable in the car. If the trip is longer than that (we take periodic trips of 1,500 miles) or we require lots of baggage, then we drive our Ford E-150 XLT van, which can't be beat for long highway trips (don't think "too expensive on gas", think "way cheaper than flying!).
  • spacewagonzspacewagonz Member Posts: 2
    What, specifically, is the safety difference that you mentioned?

    I have only 2 kids, but have been in the same dilemma. I LOVE everything about the 5. However, it does not seem to be larger enough for long trips with luggage, double stroller, and 6" 1 spouse. Plan to use it for daily driving with just myself and 2 kids (7 month old and 2 yrs old), since this is 90% of our driving and probably end up getting a full size fan at some point down the road. Right now, though, the incentives on the Chrysler vans are outstanding and there is nothing to be had on the 5, so there is still some indecision on my part.
  • castg1castg1 Member Posts: 34
    I suggest comparing the 'ease of loading' the little ones into their car seats.

    In our mazda5, there is no bending down, or climbing up to load and strap the little ones unto their seats.
  • andydicoandydico Member Posts: 12
    I'm driving a Nissan Sentra courtesy car with my 5 on the shop right now. Now I realize how convenient it is to strap/ unstrap a kid on a car seat with the 5. When it's cold, my wife would go inside the 5, strap the kid and go into the front seats from the 2nd row without going outside. Now that's convenient.
  • redberryredberry Member Posts: 10
    I also have two children, mine are under age 8. But I don't seem to have your space needs. The 5 seems perfect for my family (haven't bought it yet, plan to in the next month). For long trips with luggage, we've used our 4 door sedan, with tent, sleeping bags, luggage, large cooler, umbrella strollers in the trunk (back when the kids used strollers). I've verified the 5 has more cargo capacity than our sedan when the second row seats have passengers (and the 5's third-row seats are folded): the 5 has 15 cubic feet, our sedan, 13 cubic feet. Not a lot, but enough for us without paying the penalties for a larger vehicle.

    In fact, one of the reasons I'm so looking forward to getting a 5 is because it seems to be an ideal long distance family travel-mobile. If you need to haul more things only occasionally, like bikes, etc, I think it's much more economical to get roof racks and roof cargo units than have the expense of a large van. Looking forward to my 5!
This discussion has been closed.