Pontiac Bonneville

ezrapon · July 2003

Unfortunately, the fine print goes on to state that all Bonnevilles delivered in Canada are actually made of a waterproof cardboard composite and are prone to frame/body seperation during normal driving conditions. Between that and the numerous (96%) block heater fires, it makes these 100 degree temps more bearable. I've rolled mine (U.S. delivered) numerous times and have only had to buff out a few scratches.

idntnvu · July 2003

It sounds like someone has watched a lot of "Dukes of Hazard." Do they REALLY make cars out of "cardboard composite"? That is extremely scary.

theiceman · July 2003

Ah yes but Armorall Canada recently introduced these disposable wipes which actually repel lateral g-forces - and falling debris. Our cars are virtually impervious to roll-overs. Cardboard, steel, or paper - it doesn't matter a hoot.

Ya gotta cross the border more often...

;-P

ice

idntnvu · July 2003

I've been to Canada 3 times. I've covered Niagara Falls, Montreal, and Quebec City, and all areas in between, twice, and then I've covered Nova Scotia, PEI, and all areas near on the east coast of Canada once. Wanted to go back last month, but a health problem earlier this year prevented me from having the cash flow to do so. I love it up there. But I did not know the cars were cardboard

. I did notice different cars up there though...and even cars sold in the US with different names, like...the Pontiac Firefly, aka Geo Metro, and another Pontiac, can't remember the model, but in the us it was sold as the Chevy Corisca. Saw several others but those were what stuck out in my mind.

theiceman · July 2003

Dear General Motors Customer:

This notice is sent to inform you that General Motors is conducting a voluntary customer satisfaction program that affects certain 2000-2003 Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo; Pontiac Grand Prix, Bonneville; Buick Regal, LeSabre and Park Avenue model vehicles equipped with 3800 Series II (L36) V6 engines.

We have learned that your vehicle may develop an engine coolant leak at the upper intake manifold to throttle body gasket, or at the lower intake to upper intake gasket. This condition may result in a low engine coolant level and higher engine temperatures.

To prevent this condition from occurring, your GM dealer will replace the engine throttle body fasteners with redesigned fasteners, and add cooling system sealant to the radiator tank. This service will be performed for you at no charge through July 31, 2005.

If you have already paid for some or all of the cost ... you should contact your dealer to seek reimbursement.... Your request for reimbursement ...must be received by your dealer by July 31, 2004.

"Adding cooling system sealant"? Doesn't sound like much of a fix to me...

Anybody else yet received something similar?

ice

montanafan · July 2003

The Grand Prix sites are posting the same info today. Looks like GM will be paying the price for discontinuing the coolant sealant being added at the plant in the 2000 model run. US owners have to apply for reinbursement to GM. Appears to indicate the the 2000-2003 3.8 leak area was the gaskets and not the manifold itself.

evandro · July 2003

I have also got the famous letter about the manifold issue (in my case, after a new manifold dropped in at 17000mls).

Has anybody got the service performed? And how about this sealant, what exactly is it and why is it necessary?

montanafan · July 2003

During the early part of the 2000 Model run, GM discontinued the practice of adding cooling system sealer to cars at the plant. This was done becuase the discoloration of the coolant overflow tanks was thought to be a consumer turn off. This lead to coolant leaks from the throttle body gasket and upper intake manifold gasket on the 3800. Another potential leak cause in the throttle body area is caused by the nuts becoming loose.

My brother had this procedure done on his Grand Prix on the 12th. The new throttle body nuts have a wider base which turns on the attached nut. So it must distribute and hold torque better. They crushed up the sealant which comes in circular tablets and add it to the radiator.

There are GM engines which require the sealant tablets any time the cooling system is openned. And a friend (also a grand Prix owner) tells me that a retired GM engineer who speaks at the car shows, has always recommended sealnat tablets with anti-freeze changes.

As far as is it needed? GM thought it was before, stopped it, got gasket leaks, and so now thinks it is important enough to pay to have it added.

They also felt there was enough misdiagnosis to send out a bulletin saying that upper intake manifold replacement was not neccessary.

pontiacrick · July 2003

I also received the letter from GM regarding the replacement of throttle body bolts. It goes in tommorrow to have new bolts installed. I talked to the Service Rep and he explained what they do...basically replace the bolts and it takes about 1/2 hour. The Service rep did not see any leaks related to this, however, there was evidence of a previous leak possibly in the upper manifold area not related to the throttle body gasket. The upper manifold (previous) leak was now dry and we decided to keep an eye on it to see if any leaks develope. Current mileage is 15,000 and I still have 2 years left on the warranty. Will let you know how all goes on Wednesday.!

scscars · July 2003

Took my 2002 SLE with 22000 miles in for new throttle body bolts and cooling system sealant today. The actual work took about 30 minutes and the dealer washed the car afterwards. Total time spent was about 40 minutes in all.

While I've been watching for coolant leaks, odors, unusual temperature spurts, etc. that are related to this problem, the Bonnie's manifolds have been solid and I've been lucky to date. However, since reading all of the intake manifold horror stories on this board since last year, it did not take me long to move quickly on this problem, and I would encourage others with Bonnies having a few miles or more to do the same.

ezrapon · July 2003

I guess the extra cost of the SSEi and it's metal (non-leaking) manifold is another bonus in addition to the extra ponies, it seems to have weathered the manifold problems... Too bad it needs premium! I understand the Canadian manifolds are actually made of a paper mache like substance... designed for cold temps but prone to excessive leaking at any temp above 33 degrees F. The Canadian delivered GXP's are rumored to have tires made out of a pencil eraser type material. Early reports indicate they have very poor traction but leave wicked patches on the road during heavy acceleration and have the ability to actually erase the center lines of the highway. More on this when it's available (Ice take note)!

bigdaddycoats · July 2003

Just read in new Automobile mag they estimate price for the GXP at $35k.

montanafan · July 2003

With all the changes, improvements, etc. I would be hard to imagine the price being the same as a 2003 SSEi, but we can hope.

mlm4 · August 2003

My SSEi should not suffer from the manifold coolant leak problem of the normally aspirated 3800, but I seem to be losing coolant very slowly. Since I only drive the car 3,000-5,000 miles a year, it's hard to tell how quickly the coolant is disappearing, but in the past two years I've added coolant once and the oil change tech added coolant at least once (that I saw). Each time the recovery tank was at or below the COLD mark when the engine was hot (parked on level ground), and nearly dry when cold. Last time I checked, it is almost back down to being at COLD when the engine is hot. There is no evidence of a leak, of course. What can explain this?

montanafan · August 2003

Check the radiator cap. If it allows pressure loss, can cause evaporation. Clean around the cap or repalce.

mlm4 · August 2003

I was wondering if it was evaporating from the recovery tank. That is not a sealed system. I'll check the radiator cap as well, but it looked clean to me.

theiceman · August 2003

It can also be overflowing from the tank when you drive it really hot - but that's typically a pretty rare occurence as the expansion factor is built into the size of the reservoir.

ice

ezrapon · August 2003

Ice, you forgot to mention that the Canadian delivered Bonnevilles are powered by the old Saab air cooled 4 bangers! This cuts down on leakage as well as 1/4 mile times.

theiceman · August 2003

Then they're charging me way too much for my oil changes!

ezrapon · August 2003

You want to keep an eye on the jug gaskets too.

scoobycar10889 · August 2003

Has anyone else had this problem?..The DIC on My 2000 SLE on the personialtion page wont let me choose between (Seat Recall) Off and On and (Seat Postion) Exit and Memory. Both awensers are filled in so i cant switch between them? Is this a problem or is it just telling me that i dont have memory seats. I E mailed GM there clueless and so is the dealer but i havent went to my dealer yet just a phone conversation.

Any Ideas?

theiceman · August 2003

Weren't an option on the '00 SLE. It was standard on the SSEi but not available on the SE or the SLE. My '00 SLE certainly doesn't have them and my '00 brochure indicates that they weren't available.

Pity

morin2 · August 2003

Great discussion! I'm researching for used Bonnevilles - so far, I'm excluding the series II 3.8's. But I'd also like to avoid dexcool - anyone know which year it was first used in Bonneville 3.8? Is there a year in which I can get: 1) series I 3.8, 2) no dexcool, and 3) R134 A/C, all together ? 1994? 1993?

Many thanks!

montanafan · August 2003

Dexcool started as from the factory in the 1996 model year on Bonnevilles. And if you are ruling out the Series II, why not rule out the 3800 all together and look for a 1987 or early 1988 with the 3.8L engine. It would have none of the two 3800's improvements, most likely not have dexcool added to it, and you could have the A/C converted to R134A.

bigdaddycoats · August 2003

Just noticed that there were no Bonneville produced in July. I wonder when 04 model production begins. Is the GXP going to be an 04 or an 05 model? This years sales have also been pretty bad - somewhere around 15k or so.

lash92ssei · August 2003

http://www.poci.org/2003convention/2003ConventionShow/images/37-S- TREET-ROD.jpg

http://www.poci.org/2003convention/2003ConventionShow/images/55-E- L-CAMINO.jpg

Pictures from the Pontiac Owners Club meeting this year

mlm4 · August 2003

Despite July being the best sales month so far this year for GM, almost every division is off from last year except Cadillac, which apparently was boosted by CTS and Escalade (does 0% financing explain this?). The HUMMER H2 craze has also helped to the tune of almost 20,000 units. Only a little more than 15,000 Bonnevilles sold YTD, vs. over 70,000 for LeSabre. Oh well, it helps keep our club "exclusive" (except for those rental fleets). I've never seen more than five new Bonnevilles on a dealer's lot at once since 2000, usually less than that.

The '04 GXP is supposed to go into production in late October. No more SSEi.

pat · August 2003

We had a two toned - light and dark blue - Pontiac just like the second one when I was very little. I take it the "55" is the year?

lash92ssei · August 2003

Correct, 55 is the year and someone did a great job of taking a star chief and turning it into an "El Camino". My first Pontiac was a 67 GTO. My Dad also was a Pontiac fan. His first was a 55 2 tone Star Chief, then a 63 & 67 Catalina, a 70 Bonneville, 72 Grandville, 76 LeMans, and his last was a 78 Bonneville.

My latest list of Pontics included a 90 Bonneville SSE, a 92 Grand Am, a 94 Grand Prix GTP, a 97 GTP and now a 2000 Grand AM GT and my old reliable 92 Bonneville SSEi.

lash92ssei · August 2003

Been collecting stuff now for quite some time for my 92 SSEi. One of the reasons why is because this was the first year since the early 70's that Pontiac producted a car with enough "performance" to get people to buy Pontiac again. According to the last edition of the Pontiac Owners Club mag. "The Smoke Signals" the author thinks the SSEi will become a collectors item.

Of all the Bonneville's between the years 88-99, which model and year do you think will become collectible and Why?

lash92ssei · August 2003

Show up and have some fun

Sixteenth All Pontiac, Oakland & GMC Truck Show
Event Type: car show
Start Date: 08/24/2003
End Date: 08/24/2003
City: Richmond
State: VA
Description: Sponsored by Old Dominion Chapter POCI at Capital Pontiac GMC, 5500 S Laburnum Ave, 10 am-4 pm, $10 pre-registration by August 18, $12 after, open to all Pontiacs, Oaklands and GMC trucks, trophies, food, door prizes, free admission.
Contact Name: Michael Abernathy
Contact Address: 1400 Fortingale Circle
Contact City: Sandston
Contact State: VA
Contact Zip: 23150
Contact Phone: 804-737-3139
Contact Email: mla1998@mindspring.com

fantascp · August 2003

I would say the 1997 Anniversary Edition (40th )
Reason being there might not be a 2007 (50th Anniversary) Bonneville made- so start looking around for any 40th versions for sale- it might be a sleeper in the making!
The closest I come to the 97 Anniv Edition is that my 98 SSE is the same color- Dark Cherry

bigdaddycoats · August 2003

orderin info available at

http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2004&- amp;regionID=1&divisionID=7&type=0&vehicleID=342&- section=modelhome&page=&butID=1

oldsman01 · August 2003

1994 would be the only year you can get a Series I 3800 without Dexcool and with R-134a in the A/C. I think GM went to Dex-cool in 96. The Bonneville got the Series II 3800 in 1995(although 95's with the supercharged engine had the supercharged Series I 3800). The Bonneville and nearly all cars went to R-134a in the A/C in 1994.

oldsman01 · August 2003

Saw a post somewhere that Bonneville production is only about 15K YTD, is this for real?? Not that long ago, they were selling anywhere form 60-80K annually. As improved as the new model is, I'm surprised it is not a better seller. Maybe with the Northstar V8 and styling tweaks that are coming soon, maybe things will pick up. IMO, the Bonnie is not a bad car. BTW, anyone know what kind of price a 2001 SSEi with relatively low mileage will sell for? I might actually consider buying one if I could find one for sale with low mileage and at a good price.

cab9 · September 2003

I have a2001 Bonneville at 65 70 it vibrates some you can see the steering wheel shake ia am told this is normal because of the sports package an supercharges engine any coments?

hammen2 · September 2003

I assume you've had someone check the wheel bearings/ball joints/etc.?

If none of those, sounds like a common problem with the Aurora/Riviera, plus later-model Caddy STS, Park Avenue, etc. They are particularly sensitive to the balancing of the tires. You need to find someone with a Hunter machine which can do a "road-force" balance. Basically, they apply a counter-pressure to the tire when balancing it, and measure the high and low parts of the tire and rim, matching them up.

My '98 Aurora vibrated between 65 and 73 mph, and did so after checking the suspension and tires. The road-force balance did the trick until recently when the left-front wheel bearing went :-(

--Robert

ezrapon · September 2003

Anyone been scouting around these boards happen to find out how the GTP got the extra 20 HP? Did they do the pulley trick? If not, would the pulley swap yeild 280 HP. HMMMM. The GTP does look nice this year.

lash92ssei · September 2003

It got it with a new generation supercharger and the series III motor

cab9 · September 2003

all the tire were checked as well as the rims as a result all of the tires were replaced. they did test it on a specisl machine i wasnt told the name of it. i am wondering if this is some kind of defect and if i should persue a refund under the lemonlaw. car was dealership owners car and was bought in feb only has 21,000 miles

hammen2 · September 2003

The laws vary by state, but where I live (Wisconsin), you need to have them try to repair the car for the same defect 3x in a year.

Since this was a demo model, I wonder if they ever rotated the tires. Keep an eye on the replacement tires, and see if this problem re-occurs. If it does, THEN you have a suspension or wheel hub/bearing problem.

The Hunter machine is the only one I know of which does road-force balancing. It's the only way to really do it. See the demo at http://www.gsp9700.com

Hope this helps,

--Robert

bunky36 · September 2003

I had the same problem on a '98 Trans Am. Nobody could seem to get the wheels and tires in balance until I found a shop with the Hunter balancer. They solved the problem. I rotated the wheels several times after that and the vibration never came back. I don't have the TA anymore, but I won't let anybody else mess with my wheels and tires now.

imidazol97 · September 2003

The dealer at first balanced tires to nearest 1/4 ounce. That didn't work. On return visit they
zeroed them out. And everything was smooth. The Michelins only showed 7 or 9 or less on the
variation measured by the balancer. GM considered something 17 and under as acceptable variation in tires.

You may need to check how well your dealer balanced the tires...

Too even with the tires rolling nicely I noticed climbing long hills in PA there seemed to be a slight pulsation in the tires; that would be from alignment variation due to additional pull changing the toe. The platform is very sensitive to tires, but I think also to alignment issues. My car is 03 LeSabre. The service manager said problem is partly due to light mass on wheels, aluminum parts for suspension and wheels themselves, which react easily to slight variations in the tire force.

mlm4 · September 2003

Very quiet here. Maybe that's a good thing?

Took the '00 SSEi on a 100-mile joy ride last evening, been a long time since I've done that. Windows and roof open, closest I can get to a top-down driving experience. She cruises effortlessly down the interstate at 80 mph, very stable and with plenty of power in reserve. HUD is great, especially at night. Comfy seats. I've sat in better seats, but most cars are much worse. Good sound system. Nice and loud. Wish I had XM in the Bonnie, had to settle for CDs and FM (the horror!).

The trip began with a fill-up. The DIC announced my range was only 230 miles. I figure this was due to the short trips I've been making recently. After a half-hour of barrelling down the interstate, it had worked it's way up to 490 miles (and that's after I had burned a gallon of fuel). This seems right, since it shows an instantaneous MPG of 27 to 30 MPG on the flats, but I only get 19-20 on average around town.

The vibration problem persists, of course. At 75, it phases in and out very nicely on about a 15-second period. At 80, it's is barely noticeable, but between 55 and 75 is it worst. She also pulls very slightly to the right. When I pointed this out to the dealer, they said, "Yeah, but only if you take your hands off the steering wheel." Thanks a lot.

Had to add another cup of coolant to the recovery tank (almost empty when cold). This is the third time over the past 12,000 miles. Wonder where it is going.

I was reading some of the consumer ratings here at Edmonds.com for the 2003 Bonnevilles. One guy claims his SE is the "world's best car ever!" I wouldn't go THAT far, but the Bonnie does rock. Here's what I like about it:

PROS: Big American sedan. Lots of kick. Love-it-or-hate-it looks. Comfortable for four. Big trunk. Sleeper (just ask those Mustang drivers ;-) Cool gadgets. Cool cockpit.

CONS: Cheap feeling/looking plastic parts. Suspension too sensitive to imbalances (vibration). Not a "world-class car" for it's price. Almost no aftermarket support. Almost no consumer support. On the verge of being killed off by GM. Very sad.

SUGGESTED IMPROVEMENTS: V-8. Bring on the GXP!

imidazol97 · September 2003

Loss of coolant? Look at the backside of the gasket on the plastic plenum on top next to the throttle body to see any stains orange brown from the coolant...
Is yours in the recall for sealant and bolts on throttle body? Did they put sealant pellats into the coolant. That might be enough to seal up a leak, if there is one.

mlm4 · September 2003

The supercharger plenum is not composite. No recall that I'm aware of. It's going somewhere, but not there.

evandro · September 2003

I got my car back on Friday after the dealer performed the coolant leak recall. Having had the upper intake manifold replaced at 17000mls, I expect/hope not to see any coolant on my garage floor again.

I also asked them to balance the wheels. The infamous vibration between 65 and 70MPH is almost gone, but still there. I'll take it back in the hope that they zero out the tolerances...

What was the TSB that described this issue?

TIA

mlm4 · September 2003

The latest iteration of the vibration TSB is 00-03-10-007E, April 2003. This is version 'E', which would make it at least the fifth. Each has been a little different. At rev 'B' I think they began suggesting screened tires because the OEM tires may have been bad (only for 17" tires and only for the first 12,000 miles/12 months). At one point they suggested checking the stud runout, but that has since been removed from the TSB. The latest rev has a new one: replace the lower control arms. I hadn't heard about this before.

"On Aurora, Bonneville, DeVille, Park Avenue, Park Avenue Ultra and Seville models, a newly developed hydro-bushing lower control arm with improved damping characteristics has been released. The new lower control arms may provide an incremental improvement to the vehicle ride. Customers who have become "tuned in" to the shake condition may still feel some shake in the vehicle after the new lower control arms are installed."

Lower control arm part numbers are P/N 25746324-Left and P/N 25746325-Right.

It's worth noting that I drove a rented '02 SE from Orlando to Atlanta and it had the same vibration as my '00 SSEi. Different tires and wheels - same shake.

imidazol97 · September 2003

In your list of cars affected by the latest bulletin, was LeSabre in
the list?

mlm4 · September 2003

TSB 00-03-10-007E covers the following models:
1998-2003 Buick Park Avenue, Park Avenue Ultra
2000-2003 Buick LeSabre
1998-2003 Cadillac Seville (SLS, STS)
2000-2003 Cadillac DeVille (DTS only)
2001-2003 Oldsmobile Aurora
2000-2003 Pontiac Bonneville (17" Tires only)

Curiously, LeSabre is not among the vehicles listed for the lower control arm replacement. This replacement is the last step in the TSB, if all else fails (balancing, wheel runout, radial force variation and then screened tires). There is no exception noted, so perhaps this was an oversight? I don't see why LeSabre would not be included. On the other hand, the fact that they enumerated all the vehicles but LeSabre makes me think they excluded it on purpose. The text reads:

"THE CONTROL ARMS SHOULD ONLY BE INSTALLED ON VEHICLES IF, AFTER THE TIRE AND WHEEL DIAGNOSIS AND REPAIRS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED, THE VIBRATION CONDITION STILL EXISTS.

8. Replace both lower control arms (P/N 25746324-Left and P/N 25746325-Right) on Aurora, Bonneville, DeVille, Park Avenue, Park Avenue Ultra and Seville models."

Pontiac Bonneville

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