I don't neeed a silver WRX wagon with a 5 sp manual. I want one. I really want one. Somebody talk me into buying one now or waiting for the STi to arrive, if it does.
Jon, you don't want a WRX wagon. There are too many of them out there already, especially silver ones. You definitely don't want an STi--you will be lucky if you don't get your license suspended with just the regular WRX. I own a silver wagon and all I do is drive it night and day--my wife has left me, my boss hasn't seen me in months, and what little money I have left is for gas and oil. Have to go now. Need to drive. Hope this helps.--RA
If you're going to mention CR, have a look at that taxi test again. Their conclusion was that there were no major differences in conventional oils. They were not able to fully compare the cars with synthetic because two of three (IIRC) of them developed unrelated problems.
I spoke with the shop foreman at my dealer about synthetics. He said the boxers don't develop a problem with sludge like other engines (this was pre-WRX, (harder driving, etc.) ;-)). He also said that he has seen the inside of an engine that used Mobil 1 and it "was spotless". They have several customers that bring in their own synthetic for the dealer to put in.
So far, 450 miles on the wagon...the power comes on quickly, even with the automatic. This car is smooth, and FUN. I have already had to use the fold down seats to take some stuff to Goodwill, including Michael's old bicycle. more to come...
Yesterday, I met up with a few i-clubbers and went through some NJ/PA hills. http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=120462&referrerid=767 The two Rex wagons were 5-speeds and I was driving my wife's auto OB. I was really wondering how an auto WRX would've handled in the hills. A few times I dropped it down into 3 to keep the power up. I'm assuming you'd do the same in a Rex to keep the boost on. A lot of the time, I was wishing I had my 5-speed OBS (in for clutch repair). At other times (hours of driving and the smell of burning clutches :-)), I was kind of glad we had the auto OB. Any auto Rexers drive in the twisties yet? Just curious and I'm not trying to start a debate.
Serge- there aren't any twisties in FL, are there? :-D
Been driving the Auto-WRX in the twisties here in Virginia. Absolutely fabulous. Basically, the Auto OB you drove, I believe, would be the 4-banger OB, right ? Hell, I drove an Auto-Impreza TS (same engine as the much heavier Auto-OB) a few days back, and it could get out of its own way, on the highway. I did not however drive it through the mountains. It would be worse I suppose. And you drove a heavier vehicle with the same engine !!! No wonder, you were frustrated.
Where did you take the WRX? I had my AT Forester on Skyline Drive and it did fine; of course I obeyed most posted speed limits. I also took it off the Drive between Harrisonburg and Staunton, again at the end of the Drive and on through Roanoke to the NC line near Blowing Rock, NC. I kept in "3" the whole time but dropped it into "2" manually on occasion.
You are funny. Since the TS has a 2.5l engine in the twisties it would be better than on the open road. The 2.5engine in there has a lot of low end torque which on hilly twisties is good especially with an AT. On the highway or places where it's top end the Turbo cars have it all the way.
Anyone aware of performance figures for the wagon. I know Sport Compact Car Magazine compared the wagon to the RSX, but I'm not sure how much the extra 80 pounds penalizes the acceleration. I prefer the wagons looks ( much more of a sleeper). I'm afraid the sedan just reminds me to much of those stupid hondas that kids put spoilers on. I'd feel akward driving it.
I just bought a silver 5 spd WRX wagon, and it has plenty of performance. I have also driven a 5 spd sedan WRX. The difference is in the price of the wagon ($500 less than a comparable sedan) and in the sway bar in the rear of the wagon. I believe the front sway bars are the same in both, but the rear is slightly smaller in the wagon. But with $500, you can do enough to bring the wagon's performance upto sedan levels. With the WRX you'd probably want to modify it sometime anyway- it's just too tempting.
The wagon has more utility (obviously) but it also has about .7 in more legroom in the back seat. The wagon also doesn't get the blister fenders found in the sedan. I was more than happy with the wagon's performance. With the money saved over a sedan, I can do some performance enhancements in the future.
I am based in Roanoke, and drive around these regions, which are mainly composed of twisted mountainous roads. Places where one gets to explore the handling potential of the car, and the WRX-Auto, sure does deliver.
Paisan:
But when one considers mountainous terrain, a turbo-charged car, is way better than a NA car, due to the thinness of the air. While the 2.5L is gasping for air, the turbo is in its elements. Just a counter-thought. The WRX just zooms through these twisty roads - I can certainly certify to that !!
I'm on the east coast, not many mountains here effect the intake drastic enough to make a difference. You are correct at high altitude the TC is better than the NA, but for a wider torque band the NA will walk on the TC.
I am not too sure about the "wider torque band" in the 2.5L.....it is just that torque is available down lower, while in the TC, there is lag down below. The torque band is certainly much wider in the WRX, just that there is not much of it right off idle. Also, since this is a DOHC engine, as opposed to the SOHC engine of the 2.5L, it revs freer and faster.
Hmmm AH, In my book a wider torque band is defined as having power over a wider range of rpms. Since the WRX doesn't come up on power until post 3K rpms, and the RS comes up at probably 1500rpms that would give it a "wider" torque band. What is everyone else's definition of "wide torque band"? Maybe I'm off base completely.
I didn't want a debate, but leave it up to paisan and AH. :-p
There were some curves where the WRX's just took off. Since they were 5-speeds, they were able to keep the boost up by downshifting. I was actually taking it kind of easy since I was in my wife's car and the OB's sidewalls are still in perfect condition at 54,000 miles. When the car is cruising at about , the 2.5L is below 2500 rpms. If the turbo is even close to that, it would be off-boost. I would assume though, dropping it to "3" would keep it on-boost. Correct? Ed, you even dropped it to "2" in VA.? Afraid of ruining the tranny?
AH and paisan - We're going to try to meet at least monthly to go on these drives. Both of you should try to make it out there. AH I know you're far, but it might be worth it show you can show mike what your car can do.
I'm always up for a drive. I was out near scranton off-roading in my buddy's Montero on Sunday or I'd have been there to work out the XT6 Interesting AT WRX v. AT XT6 torque v. peak power...
Aside from the Sport Compact Car article there doesn't seem to be much info on wagon performance. In Britain, Subaru claims 0-60 in 5.9 sec. for the wagon.
The spare tire weighs 26 lbs., so you could take that out and replace it with a can of Fix-a-Flat. (hey, some new Ferraris used to have a can of the stuff in place of a spare as standard equip. Also, gasoline weighs about 8.5lb/gal., so driving with the tank 1/3 full will pare about 75 lbs. out of the rear end. It's best to stay full during cold weather, tho, so moisture won't condense inside the tank.
Dennis: Not afraid of ruining the tranny, just trying to find the optimal gear(s) for the stretch of road. "3" was best most of the time.
All: Try VA Route 56 when you get off of Skyline Drive. I've seen roads with as many curves, but none with that combo of curves and camber changes in such short distances.
XT6 across RR tracks? Bottom out at the least, maybe worse. Hopefully we'll get to see.
WRXes in rear view mirror: The big-eyed look actually reminded me of pictures I've seen of 1980's-era Chicago Bears linebacker Mike Singletary.
ol' Samurai Mike. Haven't had the opportunity to see a WRX up close while driving, nor one behind us. Now I'll be on the lookout just to see this analogy!
Let me try to dig out some powerbands of the 2.5L and the 2.0L turbo and then explain this.
The power peaks as stated by Subaru are:
2.5L 165@5600rpm 166@4000rpm
2.0LTurbo 227@6000rpm 217@4000rpm
Basically, the peaks are pretty close to each other, but the way it maintains it or drops off, may be different and can be explained only by looking at a power graph. The Subaru graph shows the Turbo to have a linear power curve, but I really doubt it, since when the Turbo kicks in, it is certainly not linear...it is exponential.
Also, the 2.5L TS, felt like it had no guts on the highway. Why not ? With a broad power band, it should not only have power down low, it should also have good mid-range and peak power. Even cars like the base Integra (140hp), pulls all the way till redline, and are superb on the highways, while the 2.5TS (with more torque/power than the Integra) is gutless above 60mph....does not indicate a "broad power band". I think it would be dropping off pretty steeply, once it hits its peak.
Even though the 4000 rpm peak torque is the same for both the NA and the TC they feel different. How do I know? Well for all of you debating it, I have both. 2002 WRX 5 speed and '98 2.5 RS 5 speed (DOHC). So here is my very unscientific feeling after logging many miles on each: The WRX loves to rev. The DOHC 2.5 does not. I have never driven a 2.5 SOHC but I was shocked that the DOHC did not like high rpm. I had a delsol that went to 7100 and the RS only 6500. Believe me the Honda felt much better with it's SOHC VTEC at high rpm than the RS. The WRX feels much more like the delsol. As to the push down low, the RS seems quicker off the line but then the power seems to run out. The WRX needs 3000 rpm to do much but then the power seems to grow exponentially. TWRX
I was going stricly by SOTP (seat of the pants feel), but I agree with twrx. The 2.5l is happy at 4000rpm, while the WRX get happier and happier as the revs build, the more the merrier.
The top end of the NA cars isn't there but on the highway that top end over 4500Rpms represents what speed again something over 100mph... Out here in the east 100mph is not something achieved on a daily basis.
The NA holds the edge till about 15mph or so, after that it is all over....you do not have to go anywhere near 100mph.
Basically, below the turbo zone, the Turbo engine is a 2.0L DOHC pulling along a 3100+ lb car. Definitely feels a bit sluggish. After that, it behaves like a 4.0L V8 doing the same thing (pulling along a 3000+ lb load). The NA engine behaves always like a 2.5L 4-banger, tuned to deliver power down low and to the lower-end of the mid-ranges. Also, the Turbo reaches the turbo-zone pretty quickly, due to its quick revving nature.
twrx:
Basically, your experience mirrors my observations about the NA and the Turbo. I agree absolutely about everything you stated. I used to drive a base Integra (140hp DOHC), which would have proved to have the same "feel" as your delsol, and it used to pull freely, right upto redline, and the WRX is a mirror of its power characteristic, only much better.
Whatever you guys say. My point being anytime that the engine needs to drop down below 3500rpms wether that be in 1st, 2nd or 3rd gears you are going to see the NA power plants keeping their power. On tight mountain roads this would mean a NA car *might* do better.
Basically as you can see, there is at least 200lbs/ft of torque from 2800rpm till 6000rpm, which is a broad torque band. By the time the turbo reaches 2000rpm, it has almost reached the peak torque of the NA engine. Also, by the time the turbo has hit the 4000rpm mark, it has already exceeded the peak horsepower of the NA engine.
From the seat-of-the-pants feel, I would think that the NA engine should be fizzling out, as soon as it hits its torque/power peaks, while the Turbo would have already over-whelmed it by then and would be entering the meat of its power zone. Need to watch the power-bands of the NA engine before we can say with certainity.
Numbers don't tell the whole story. I'm sure they obtained those on a dyno, starting from idle and giving it full throttle all the way to redline. So by 2800rpm the turbo has had time to spool up.
On the road, driving along at the same 2800rpm, if you hit the gas, there will be a slight delay before you get that same boost. You simply will not get 200 lb-ft at that instant.
About a second later, the turbo will spool up and you will zoom by any 2.5l car, but for that first second, there is no replacement for displacement.
At auto-x everything is under 15mph then, since my XT6 AT whoops on nice tight courses the WRXs. IIRC the speeds aren't below 15mph but I could be wrong. Where do you live AH? Maybe I can make it down to an Auto-x down in your area next year and we can see how the 2 match up!
Boy, I shouldn't have gotten AH started. ;-) My question was regarding how to keep the boost up on curvy roads with an auto. On the roads I was on last Sunday, my guess is that a good part of the driving an auto WRX would've been off-boost. Unless you floor it on every curve and then you'd take off to the moon. Or maybe keeping it in 3 or 2.
Patti - it would be easier if FHI sends us the sport-shifter. Jeez, even Hyundai offers it (hee hee).
Yes, I live in VA (Roanoke), closer to NC/TN than DC. In such tight courses, I would maybe leave the shifter in 2 or 3.
According to the owner's manual, "1" is good for upto 40mph and "2" is good for 73mph. "3" has no fixed speed limit. So if we leave it in "2", the lower gear ratios (numerically higher) should result in a tremendous kick. Of course, the mileage would plummet.
Indiana has only a few roads that are for the serious sportscar nut. Therefore I like Colorado a bit better for all out fun driving. Although it was not my first reason for the WRX I am looing forward to the turbo squeezing the thin air into the 2 liter and getting performance on western roads that I have never experienced before. Summer vacation can't come too soon.
That's the plan for this winter to put in some time left foot braking to get comfortable with it. My one buddy says he can't wait to see me in a good car.
really are great for WRX-ing. There is a great road from Sedalia to Larkspur (Hwy 105), then you jump a straight shot down I-25 to Castle Rock and take Wolfensburger back to Perry Park Rd. and back to Sedalia. What an adrenaline rush!
Was driving it the other day and had to go into the redline a couple times to pass a couple of slower cars. The governor never cut in, but the engine was at 7300-7400 for a few seconds each time. The engine seems fine, but guess I'm surprised the rev limiter isn't set a little closer to the 7000 redline. But it's good to know the Subie can soak it up when we get a little carried away.
Your tachometer is a gauge and like all gauges, need not accurately indicate the true rpms, especially when you are at the upper end of the rpm range. The true rpms of your engine (which is what the rev limiter uses) may have been lower and the gauge just indicated a higher figure.
Roger, don't even tell me that you live in Colorado with WRX. I can't stand that. I've been to Colorado on vacation over a dozen times. Driving my '94 Delsol in Rocky Mtn. NP and from Estes Pk. down to Blackhawk were especially cool. (Caught some great night video of lightning in the distance out of the open roof of the Honda.) It's just the Honda 2 seater was not too good bringing enough luggage from 1000 miles away. Went out to Colorado twice in my '98 Forester. Very nice ride out. Found out I am not too brave as a jeep road driver (Telluride area) but it was really pretty good on 2 lanes like $1,000,000 hwy. Can't wait to get the WRX to that region.
We're in the process of trying to get air fare to Colorado right now. We have friends in Ft. Collins and want to visit in January. Hopefully catch plenty of snow.
Twrx--to really raise your hair, there's a drive up Lookout Mountain to Buffalo Bill's grave--extremely twisty with lots of switchbacks and gains altitude like crazy. Most cars can't handle it but the WRX just gobbles it up! It's best to go early in the morning--seems like everyone out here drives an SUV, pickup, or van and they can really clog the roads in a hurry.
Juice--hopefully the snow will start flying and conditions ideal for your skiing trip. It's been kind of a mild winter so far. I've had two gimpy knees since a kid, so even tho I'm a native, have always had to shy away from the slopes.
This just in: Just saw the new issue of Automobile and they did name it Car of the Year. Said it was the "best performance bargain in the land." The other nominees were BMW M3, Acura RSX, SVT Focus, Jaguar X-type, Ford Thunderbird (take that MT!), the new Nissan Altima and Camry.
Hey juice I heard they rent troopers in CO. A few of the guys took em off roading from the rental company! If you get a chance maket he wife drive one out there, may change her mind!
Comments
I spoke with the shop foreman at my dealer about synthetics. He said the boxers don't develop a problem with sludge like other engines (this was pre-WRX, (harder driving, etc.) ;-)).
He also said that he has seen the inside of an engine that used Mobil 1 and it "was spotless". They have several customers that bring in their own synthetic for the dealer to put in.
Dennis
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=120462&referrerid=767
The two Rex wagons were 5-speeds and I was driving my wife's auto OB. I was really wondering how an auto WRX would've handled in the hills. A few times I dropped it down into 3 to keep the power up. I'm assuming you'd do the same in a Rex to keep the boost on. A lot of the time, I was wishing I had my 5-speed OBS (in for clutch repair). At other times (hours of driving and the smell of burning clutches :-)), I was kind of glad we had the auto OB.
Any auto Rexers drive in the twisties yet?
Just curious and I'm not trying to start a debate.
Serge- there aren't any twisties in FL, are there? :-D
-Dennis
Later...AH
Ed
-mike
The wagon has more utility (obviously) but it also has about .7 in more legroom in the back seat. The wagon also doesn't get the blister fenders found in the sedan. I was more than happy with the wagon's performance. With the money saved over a sedan, I can do some performance enhancements in the future.
Paisan:
But when one considers mountainous terrain, a turbo-charged car, is way better than a NA car, due to the thinness of the air. While the 2.5L is gasping for air, the turbo is in its elements. Just a counter-thought. The WRX just zooms through these twisty roads - I can certainly certify to that !!
Later...AH
-mike
Later...AH
-mike
There were some curves where the WRX's just took off. Since they were 5-speeds, they were able to keep the boost up by downshifting. I was actually taking it kind of easy since I was in my wife's car and the OB's sidewalls are still in perfect condition at 54,000 miles.
When the car is cruising at about , the 2.5L is below 2500 rpms. If the turbo is even close to that, it would be off-boost. I would assume though, dropping it to "3" would keep it on-boost. Correct?
Ed, you even dropped it to "2" in VA.? Afraid of ruining the tranny?
AH and paisan - We're going to try to meet at least monthly to go on these drives. Both of you should try to make it out there. AH I know you're far, but it might be worth it show you can show mike what your car can do.
Serge - Twist ties! ROFL! :-)
-Dennis
-mike
I meant to say "when the car is cruising at about 35 mph, the 2.5 is below 2500 rpms"
Ed - do you think mike's XT6 would've bottomed out on that roller coaster drop at the R/R track? :-)
-Dennis
-juice
The spare tire weighs 26 lbs., so you could take that out and replace it with a can of Fix-a-Flat. (hey, some new Ferraris used to have a can of the stuff in place of a spare as standard equip.
All: Try VA Route 56 when you get off of Skyline Drive. I've seen roads with as many curves, but none with that combo of curves and camber changes in such short distances.
XT6 across RR tracks? Bottom out at the least, maybe worse. Hopefully we'll get to see.
WRXes in rear view mirror: The big-eyed look actually reminded me of pictures I've seen of 1980's-era Chicago Bears linebacker Mike Singletary.
Ed
-mike
-Brian
Subaru Crew resident Bear Fan
The power peaks as stated by Subaru are:
2.5L
165@5600rpm
166@4000rpm
2.0LTurbo
227@6000rpm
217@4000rpm
Basically, the peaks are pretty close to each other, but the way it maintains it or drops off, may be different and can be explained only by looking at a power graph. The Subaru graph shows the Turbo to have a linear power curve, but I really doubt it, since when the Turbo kicks in, it is certainly not linear...it is exponential.
Also, the 2.5L TS, felt like it had no guts on the highway. Why not ? With a broad power band, it should not only have power down low, it should also have good mid-range and peak power. Even cars like the base Integra (140hp), pulls all the way till redline, and are superb on the highways, while the 2.5TS (with more torque/power than the Integra) is gutless above 60mph....does not indicate a "broad power band". I think it would be dropping off pretty steeply, once it hits its peak.
Later...AH
Later...AH
TWRX
-juice
-mike
Basically, below the turbo zone, the Turbo engine is a 2.0L DOHC pulling along a 3100+ lb car. Definitely feels a bit sluggish. After that, it behaves like a 4.0L V8 doing the same thing (pulling along a 3000+ lb load). The NA engine behaves always like a 2.5L 4-banger, tuned to deliver power down low and to the lower-end of the mid-ranges. Also, the Turbo reaches the turbo-zone pretty quickly, due to its quick revving nature.
twrx:
Basically, your experience mirrors my observations about the NA and the Turbo. I agree absolutely about everything you stated. I used to drive a base Integra (140hp DOHC), which would have proved to have the same "feel" as your delsol, and it used to pull freely, right upto redline, and the WRX is a mirror of its power characteristic, only much better.
Later...AH
-mike
Engine Power (HP):
1000rpm - 25hp
1800rpm - 50hp
2500rpm - 110hp
3000rpm - 140hp
4000rpm - 170hp
4500rpm - 200hp
5000rpm - 210hp
5500rpm - 217hp
6000rpm - 227hp
6600rpm - 217hp
Torque (lbs/ft):
1000rpm - 110
1500rpm - 140
2000rpm - 165
2500rpm - 180
2800rpm - 200
3000rpm - 205
3500rpm - 210
4000rpm - 217
4500rpm - 215
5000rpm - 205
5500rpm - 205
6000rpm - 200
6600rpm - 180
Basically as you can see, there is at least 200lbs/ft of torque from 2800rpm till 6000rpm, which is a broad torque band. By the time the turbo reaches 2000rpm, it has almost reached the peak torque of the NA engine. Also, by the time the turbo has hit the 4000rpm mark, it has already exceeded the peak horsepower of the NA engine.
From the seat-of-the-pants feel, I would think that the NA engine should be fizzling out, as soon as it hits its torque/power peaks, while the Turbo would have already over-whelmed it by then and would be entering the meat of its power zone. Need to watch the power-bands of the NA engine before we can say with certainity.
Later...AH
On the road, driving along at the same 2800rpm, if you hit the gas, there will be a slight delay before you get that same boost. You simply will not get 200 lb-ft at that instant.
About a second later, the turbo will spool up and you will zoom by any 2.5l car, but for that first second, there is no replacement for displacement.
-juice
-mike
-juice
My question was regarding how to keep the boost up on curvy roads with an auto. On the roads I was on last Sunday, my guess is that a good part of the driving an auto WRX would've been off-boost. Unless you floor it on every curve and then you'd take off to the moon. Or maybe keeping it in 3 or 2.
Patti - it would be easier if FHI sends us the sport-shifter. Jeez, even Hyundai offers it (hee hee).
mike - he's in S.E. VA, IIRC.
-Dennis
To answer your question, left foot braking, perhaps?
-juice
-mike
According to the owner's manual, "1" is good for upto 40mph and "2" is good for 73mph. "3" has no fixed speed limit. So if we leave it in "2", the lower gear ratios (numerically higher) should result in a tremendous kick. Of course, the mileage would plummet.
Later...AH
TWRX
Ed
-mike
Was driving it the other day and had to go into the redline a couple times to pass a couple of slower cars. The governor never cut in, but the engine was at 7300-7400 for a few seconds each time. The engine seems fine, but guess I'm surprised the rev limiter isn't set a little closer to the 7000 redline. But it's good to know the Subie can soak it up when we get a little carried away.
Later...AH
TWRX
-juice
-juice
Juice--hopefully the snow will start flying and conditions ideal for your skiing trip. It's been kind of a mild winter so far. I've had two gimpy knees since a kid, so even tho I'm a native, have always had to shy away from the slopes.
This just in: Just saw the new issue of Automobile and they did name it Car of the Year. Said it was the "best performance bargain in the land." The other nominees were BMW M3, Acura RSX, SVT Focus, Jaguar X-type, Ford Thunderbird (take that MT!), the new Nissan Altima and Camry.
-mike