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Toyota Prius and Honda Hybrid: Will anyone buy Hybrids??
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Comments
the clueless Honda dealer sure rings a Bell.
On my visit the "salesman" said they didn't have
any brochures because they were always running
out.
How tough can it be to keep literature in stock?
Heck, with the $15K premium they were asking on
the pair of S2000's I figure they could have
had a couple of boxes on brochures hand carried
from Japan.
Asked about the Honda GX. Huh? says the salesman.
Figured it wouldn't do me any good to ask about
the Insight cause the dealer was severly lacking
any.
At low rpm, electricity generated and stored onboard takes on (electric motors have low end torque characteristic, with near flat high torque curve in under 2000 rpm). Once past the flat output of electric motor, the VTEC takes the task of acceleration. Overall, I think, the car will have a near flat curve from about 1500 rpm to 6500 rpm. Hopefully we will get to see a test drive soon enough.
I hope it has a sunroof option, and that they'll move include a CD player rather than just casette.
If it's true that there will only be 5000, I hope I'm one of the first in line for a test drive.
I do think that Insight will be nimble, if not a very quick car, but I doubt it will have moonroof since it adds 25-30 lb to add moonroof, and Insight was made to be light car as well. However, I think the car will come with a good CD player (standard), perhaps with 6-speakers. I know for sure that it has four wheel discs with abs, power everything, and perhaps leather trimmed recaro seats.
5000 is a small number, but there is one possibility that will make it even more rare. Honda's fleet sale is generally limited to cars like Honda EV, Civic GX etc, and Insight looks like a good candidate to join the group. It could mean even lesser number of cars reaching dealership. Insight is nice looking car, exactly what I would imagine CRX would have grown to. Besides the hybrid motor, Honda should also consider using the CVT from Civic HX (1.6 liter SOHC VTEC-E/115 HP). This should also yield city gas mileage in excess of 45 mpg, while being LEV or even ULEV, even better, SULEV (like some California 2000 Accord EX).
from the pictures on Honda site, Insight seems to have two-tone "Recaro" seats (probably leather), and perhaps power seat as well (I'd say that the seats should be identical to those in NSX and S2000, since Insight shares the production line). Not sure about a/c.
I do wonder how power-hungry a/c would sap the performance of the car, though.
1- The gas engine shuts off when the car is stopped. However, when the A/C (which is standard auto ac, I believe...) is turned on, the gas engine will not automatically turn off.
2- The mag. said that it will be offered with a 5-spd and the CVT transmission (from the Civic HX)
3- Also, I gathered that the A/C would not sap alot of power away because most of the power does not come from the engine. Most all the power comes from the electric motor when going 0-30 (or full throttle) because it has tons more available torque. The gas engine is actually intended to supplement the electric motor.
4- The mag had a picture of the battery pack and it was pretty substantial looking. (Not like the Honda EV's though...) My main worry would be how much that battery pack costs to replace and how long is it good for...
Ryan
2. Costs. (I wouldn't be surprised if those Prius cost numbers quoted previously included fixed development costs.) These cars are really experiments for the companies to build a knowledge base. They don't mind loosing money to gain experience that can be used in future models and possibly put you ahead of the competition. And don't forget the PR value of clean, efficient high-tech cars.
3. The Insight is NOT based on any exisiting honda chassis. It's constructed of Aluminum with some plastic body panels. (a big selling point to people like me in the rust belt) It's a unique chassis in the honda linueup. I doubt if it shares anything (dash, seats, suspension, etc.etc.) with the civic model.
Opinions
1. As new any technology, expect changes. I don't expect 5 year production runs of the Insight or Prius without at least major design changes.
2. Looking at all Insight with it's light body, low drag, skinny tires, etc.etc. They could put a civic HF motor in it and still get 60MPG.
- The dash looks good (there is a small picture in 2000 Honda lineup brochure). Looks like Honda used some aluminium there as well. The "meter" cluster is a mix of S2000, EV-plus and any other Honda.
I doubt if it is based directly off any existing Honda. The engine is from Honda JV-X concept that Honda showcased few years ago, but Insight looks lot more like the CRX than the JV-X. (I'll try to post those pictures if I can find them).
There a few lame ones on Honda's site:
http://www.honda2000.com/insight/
and various bits that look as if they've been pulled from a brochure on some dealers' sites. But SURELY by now, there must be pictures of the production vehicle available.
Does anybody know when the official launch date is?
When I might be able to get behind a wheel?
Ryan
On the other hand I would expect demand to be limitted, as gas is cheap and small efficient cars are out of fashion.
So I don't know how much dealer markup will be. I can see if some well-to-do eco wants a second car to salve his concience for using a spute for his daily driver, he might be willing to pay quite a premium.
Interesting technology, but for most people not worth it. Sometimes innovation is accepted (radial tires) sometimes not (remember the miracle of Honda and Nissan 4 wheel steering?)
Andrew
Do you think this formula could be applied to say, an older Civic? The 1988-1991 sedan is a nice car, wonder if the 1.0L engine and DC motors would fit...hmm...
Needless to say, I'm now re-ordering my priorities for what I want in a new car (and my car buying agenda has just been put in the fast lane!). Safety has taken on a new lustre. I want some weight around me (I'm sure the aluminum frame on the Insight is marvelously strong, but momentum counts too).
I'm not going to take you away from your inclination towards a heavier vehicle, but momentum does count, and it has to be dissipated somewhere. Think of two tanks colliding at 40 mph each. And the number of tanks is increasing on the road, so chances are getting worse. Yes, tank will destroy the light weight champion, but what are the chances that you can steer out a tank or a lightweight car can also be a deciding factor. That is why I believe, controllability is the best armor, except if someone has made up the mind to ram-in, in that case, PERHAPS 18 wheeler the safest bet (unfortunately, even a pickup turned deadly ib a 18-wheeler driver in Dallas area, last week).
;-)
Pocahontas
Community Leader/Coupes, Convertibles, and Sports Cars Confererence
Compare a civic and insight, insight costs 5K more. The civic will average about 30 mpg, the insight about twice this. If you drive 12,000 per year and pay 1.40 for gas, you will pay 560 dollars for the civic gas, 280 for the insight gas. You save 280 bucks per year - it takes you about 20 years to break even. Not a great deal. Also consider you pay extra interest on the greater purchase cost, and that you pay about 400 extra in taxes when you buy. Overall a terrible deal.
Hondas are reliable, but the civic uses proven technology and is less complex - has gas motor only, no electric.
Also, the civic is roomier, much more practical. The insight is a small car optimized for fuel efficiency only.
Finally, this comparison makes the insight look unfairly good, because it is being heavily subsidized by Honda. If you put this kind of money and exotic materials in a convential IC car it would be fairly efficient - not as efficient as the insight, but closer.
Andrwe
Talk to everyone later. ;-)
Pocahontas
Community Leader/Coupe, Convertibles, and Sports Cars Conference
I drive an Electric Ford Ranger at work for N.Y. State (part of the Governors iniciative to have 10% of fleet as an alternative fuel vehicle) it rides heavy and only has 50 mile range(until you turn the heater, headlights, defrost on, then you see the range drop dramatically) requires a special charger for recharging purposes, and cost $57k MSRP $47k states cost.
I don't see the bargain in the EV line.
Ray T.
I agree with you. Honda has this light weight two-seater chassis, that is 200 lb lighter than the old CRX! and just put Civic Si's 160 HP engine in it, tune the suspension a little (and widen the rear track a little).
Insight priced under $19K! I'm pretty sure Honda will find enough buyers. Atleast it is not a slow car, looks different than anything on the road, and has a different attitude. Accerelation too is okay (0-60 in 10.5 seconds is just enough for around town driving and merging with 65 mph traffic).
Then again, why? Getting near 50mpg in a REAL car beats out 70mpg in ultra-lightweight, poor handling 2-seater anyday...
-beanboy
Consider the Honda and Toyota entries. They offer great mileage, but they cost more than conventional cars. Also consider -
1. The prices are heavily subsidized, these are being sold at losses of ~20k/vehicle, they are sold in limitted quantities. So the price performance equation is worse than it looks.
2. These cars use a lot of very advanced weight saving materials, and have their design heavily compromised towards fuel economy - they sacrifice handling, room, etc. If you put an IC engine in them you could also get great mileage. Not as good as the hybrid, but it would close the gap farther.
3. These cars are very clean, I think they both meat california ulev standards. But a number of conventional ic cars do also.
Which brings me back to the Cadillac V8-6-4, and engine that would actually cut out cylinders when it did not need them. Back in the 80's we thought this was cool, it provided better efficiency and better power. But there were other ways (fuel injection, multivalve) that provided even better performance for less money. The motto of this story is that "cool" technology does not always succeed - especially when it is more expensive and complicated.
I drive over to Goudy Honda in Alhambra on Sunday
morning hoping to maybe test drive one of the Insights. There must have been at least 20 salespeople milling about and about 5 customers shopping. None of the salespeople had heard that Honda is making a hybrid let alone that it was supposed to be at dealer lots by now. I finally find someone who says that they do not have any in, they may get some next month and that I can leave a deposit for one today if I would like! Then he walks away because I am probably not going to buy anything TODAY.
Moron!
Why would I, site unseen, shell out a few thousand for a deposit on a car that they do not know when it will arrive? This seems to be the typical response at all of the local dealers (pasadena, goudy, santa monica, etc.). None of them know anything about it and always refer me to the honda web site for help. I ran into similar problems when the EV was available. One dealer (downtown LA) told me that Honda did not make an EV and I had seen one on the lot! I eventually found out that I had to go to a dealer in Van Nuys (about twenty miles away) for info. Hopefully Honda has extended their sales information to all of the dealers so that people like me, who honestly want an eco friendly car, can get the info we need and maybe buy one of these things.
And while their at it, why doesn't Toyota run the ECO commercials her in the states? They were a big hit with all of my friends in Japan. I have seen them on the web:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/eco/movie_index.html
But I am sure that they would be a hit in LA with all the teeny boppers.
Enough ranting for now.
AB
Hybrids are inherently more expensive (you got 2 engines instead of 1), complex and still uses gas. You can rise the gas milage by using lowering body weight, stop the engine when idling, ect, but that's really just a stop gap measure and won't allow you to give good performance and gas milage over 100 mpg.
I think the ture future for automotive will be with the fuel cell system. Some how they must find a way to store hydrogen and oxgen safely first though.
For example, making only 60 hp is just not enough to be useful as a mainstream car. The insight make a tiny amount of power, which even with the ultra light body and 2 seater interior, gives a lousy 0-60 time of 12 seconds with a fully charged battery and a MANUAL transmission. Imagine the horror if you had to drive an automatic (which I don't think is available). Toyota Prius is the same thing, while making more power, it has a normal car size and weight, which means the 0-60 time is also 12 seconds with a fully charge battery (but with automatic transmission this time).
I'm sorry, but 12 second 0-60 time is just not acceptable. The performance only suffers more when the battery is not fully charged. Imagine a 0-60 of 14 seconds or more when you try to get on the highway. That's going to be a death ride.
Saving fuel by lowering engine size can only go so far. Both Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius are already at the minimal performance level. What we need is a hybrid that can offer acceptable performance for everyday driving. Engines that make 60 or so hp is just not going to do it.
carlady/host
Both Honda and Toyota are losing tons of money making the hybrid cars. It cost twice as much to make than the price listed on the sticker.
$20,000 for a 2 seater(Honda Insight), and $22,000 for a 4 seater (Toyota Prius) is already unacceptably pricey for these subcompact/compact cars (not to mention their almost unacceptable performance). To sell it at a profit (instead of at 1/2 of the cost), these tiny cars would cost more than many of the luxury cars.
Hybrid will always be much more expensive than a conventional car (since it's really 2 cars under the hood). That's why the price will always prevent it from entering the mainstream.
The future is a pure alternative fuel vehicle, not a hybrid. I think it's the fuel cell technology. Hydrogen fuel is extremely cheap to make, simply by the electrolysis of water.
Wenyue:
Insight was tested doing 0-60 mph (fully charged batteries) at 10.2 seconds, and 12 seconds with drained batteries (which C&D mentioned is tough to do on Insight since it uses gasoline engine for normal driving and electric booster during acceleration unlike Prius that uses electric engine for driving, and gasoline booster for acceleration). Prius achieved 0-60 of about 14 seconds. But these cars are not about pure acceleration (although Insight accelerates faster than a four cylinder Camry with auto transmission!), they are about benchmarking a concept. At $18K, Insight would be a terrific deal for the environment conscious (and I'll need two more seats though, my do isn't small).
Vickells:
The only SULEV vehicle being sold in the USA is the Accord EX being sold only in California.