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Toyota Highlander vs Jeep Liberty
belowblazing
Member Posts: 1
I'm thinking of replacing my 1989 car.....so doing two (actually, three) comparisons in total:
a) Base FWD Highlander v. Jeep Sport
b) Limited V6 AWD Highlander v. Jeep Limited
c) Forester Limited v. V6 Highlander v. Jeep ltd.
a) in this case, I would choose the HL since the gas mileage is way better than the Sport. the trade-off is of course the 2 wheel forward drive as opposed to all wheel drive. also the toyota seems to be overpriced if compared the the base jeep trim. I can't understand why toyota would sell a SUV without skid control on its lower trim! the HL also seems to be a smoother car-like ride. i guess that's coz Jeep is a hard core SUV in the end. it felt stiffer &/or seems to have had a stronger-built.
b)I am welcoming any inputs on this one!
c) Forester: better reliability? (it's been around for more than 4 years)....but the style is bad compared the jeep and HL. the clearance also sucks on the forester? oh, and i'm also getting a great lease rate 48 months on forester for 6.8%. The best jeep can do for me is 9.3% on 48 months lease. i was impressed by subaru's handle, visibility (blind spots are low) and smooth ride. i can only complain of its tired look and they might re-style it next year.
p.s. i do not plan to take my car out to climb over rocks....or rivers. but i do intend to take a 10 hour drive to a ski resort....where i may have to drive in harsh snowy conditions....with many chances of slippage!
a) Base FWD Highlander v. Jeep Sport
b) Limited V6 AWD Highlander v. Jeep Limited
c) Forester Limited v. V6 Highlander v. Jeep ltd.
a) in this case, I would choose the HL since the gas mileage is way better than the Sport. the trade-off is of course the 2 wheel forward drive as opposed to all wheel drive. also the toyota seems to be overpriced if compared the the base jeep trim. I can't understand why toyota would sell a SUV without skid control on its lower trim! the HL also seems to be a smoother car-like ride. i guess that's coz Jeep is a hard core SUV in the end. it felt stiffer &/or seems to have had a stronger-built.
b)I am welcoming any inputs on this one!
c) Forester: better reliability? (it's been around for more than 4 years)....but the style is bad compared the jeep and HL. the clearance also sucks on the forester? oh, and i'm also getting a great lease rate 48 months on forester for 6.8%. The best jeep can do for me is 9.3% on 48 months lease. i was impressed by subaru's handle, visibility (blind spots are low) and smooth ride. i can only complain of its tired look and they might re-style it next year.
p.s. i do not plan to take my car out to climb over rocks....or rivers. but i do intend to take a 10 hour drive to a ski resort....where i may have to drive in harsh snowy conditions....with many chances of slippage!
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Comments
Oh yeah, the fact it's a Toyota means it will likely have very little trouble in it's life. The fact that the Jeep is 100% Chrysler, it's almost guaranteed to have problems, and lots of 'em. The Jeep Liberty is also very ugly, looks like the result of a VW New Beetle and Nissan Xterra, none of which are reasonably attractive. Toyota is the obvious choice between these two.
I doubt the Forester will have as good a reliability rating as the Toyota HL. It most likely will be as reliable as the Jeep. The Forester is a good buy, if you can put up with it's (IMHO) ugly looks, low ride height (rides as low as a Jetta) and questionable interior quality as compared to the Highlander.
You could also check out the new 2002 Honda CR-V as well.
-RAVvie4me
If you want reliability, both Toyota and Subaru you will get reliability. Check Consumer Reports and forum boards for both the Jeep and Subaru and Highlander.
Keep in mind if you are going for SUV and have plans to go anywhere in a remote location for camping or ??? reliability will be a big thing. You don't want to get stuck in middle of nowhere.
If you never plan to go away from nearest tow truck, then go for the Jeep. You'll save bunch of cash upfront. Of course one must ask why is it so much cheaper than the others in its class? Is it truly cheaper or does it just seem that way. For Jeep you have to pay extra for everything you get as standard in HL or Subaru (Power Locks, windows, etc.). Then there is the hidden cost savings that as a consumer you can't see, but what about safety in construction when in accident. Did you see the www.IIHS.org web site for ratings of a Dodge and Ford pickup trucks ? Its eye opener to see how some Ford and Chrysler products are so poorly designed. This is due to the lack of engineering dollars spent in designing a truly good product. Hence, the cheaper product. (This is just IMO)
As far as looks thing that is in the eye of the beholder. For me it is HL, if money was no object I would've gone for the BMW X5 but it is an object not grown on tree for me so it is HL.
Good luck in your quest to find the SUV that meets your needs.
Toyota makes excellent vehicles. I own a Sienna. If you want a car-based SUV with lots of room, a comfortable ride, soft handling, and soft-road capability, buy a Highlander. Toyota makes rugged off-road vehicles. The Highlander is not one of them. But most folks don't ever go off road...
The Subaru Forester's all wheel drive and handling is unmatched for any hard or soft-road situation. It is not an off road vehicle. It's smaller than a Highlander, and the styling is dated, but while driving on switchback mountain roads, you'd leave the Highlanders and Libertys in the dust. It's based on a rally-inspired car, and it shows it in the twisty, slippery stuff.
The Liberty, which may or may not be plagued with problems (no recalls yet, like the Mazda/Ford Tribute/Escape early months) is a horse of a different color. But before you discount its build quality, go drive one. It's quite a suprise. That doesn't mean it'll stand the test of time, but it's still a nice suprise.
If you want a vehicle capable of pulling 5,000 lb. (probably over-rated) and going off road, it's not fair to compare the Highlander and Forester to the Liberty. It's on-road manners are not bad (but not nearly as good as the Forester or Highlander), and it can be equipped with a full-time four wheel drive system. Still, its off-road prowess limits its on-road performance. A well equipped Liberty Sport with the off-road package, power everything, CD player, side head curtain airbags, AC, etc. can be had for about $24K, which is competitive (cheaper) than the Highlander. Check www.fitzmall.com for fair prices (they sell Toyotas, Subarus and Jeeps, among others, at a set price over invoice).
Pricing is largely a function of how much a vehicle costs to build and how much a manufacturer wants to make on a vehicle. Jeep has a brand new manufacturing facility and has designed it around the vehicle and the vehicle around it. Jeep is trying to compete with the Escape/Mazda twins, the RAV-4, Forester, etc. in terms of pricing. The Highlander competes in a different class.
As to the safety issues, Highlander and Forester do well. No one has rated the Liberty yet. Don't extrapolate from one long-ago designed vehicle and say all manufacturers vehicles will be the same. Want to see a terrible Toyota? Look at the 4 door pickups. Does that mean the Highlander is bad? Nope.
Good luck.
I haven't drove the Liberty, so I can't comment on its ride or fit/finish. I think the exterior looks okay, though. My HL looks a little too mini-van-ish for me from some angles, but I've worked on that a bit (its amazing what side tubes and a snowboard rack will do for appearance as well as functionality!). As for the HL's ride/acceleration/handling...can't be beat.
I can't comment on theHL, except that it looks like a station wagon/mini - van on steroids. I'm sure it is a nice riding vehicle though. I owned a Forester for 2 years and overall it was an ok car (notice the word car). It did fine in the snow, but I wouldn't have felt comfortable taking it off-road. The tranny did go up in the Forester after only 45,000 miles. Then it took 45 days to get a new tranny from Subaru, and guess what, that one ended up being defective. It took an additional 35 days to get another tranny in. I read the Liberty problems page and still decided, after test driving the Ford Escape & Explorer, Isuzu Trooper and Rodeo, Chevy Blazer, and Nissan Xterra, to buy a Liberty. I have had it for a few weeks now and love it! Comparing it to vehicles in its class (Xterra, Escape, Rodeo), the Liberty won me over by far. The Xterra was the next one in line after the Liberty. The Escape and the Rodeo just felt very tinny and not built very well. While the Liberty and Exlporer felt and rode like they were the size of a Tahoe or Subruban. I may be taking a chance on a first year vehicle, but sometimes you have to take chances. One other thing about the Liberty compared to the HL and Forester is that it is more like a truck/off -road vehicle then the others. If you plan on going off-road at all (which most SUV's never get a chance to do, and that is why they are not built like trucks, more like mini-vans) then I would take a good look at the Liberty. I also recommend reading some reviews in some of the 4 Wheel and Off-Road magazines.
Try the Escape, I have one and its been wonderful. Test drive the V6 XLT. I fish and ski and the Escape has gotten me everywhere I needed to go. Also own 2 jet skiis and the Escape tows them just fine. Granted, I am aware its a car frame and would not take it into heavy offroad situations. It all depends on what your going to use it for.
With all the money you save by going the minivan route, buy a guitar and learn a song or two so that when you get her home you can sort of back up what you said. Playing the guitar isn't hard, and chicks dig a guy that can play music for them.
I'm sure the Highlander is a good vehicle...it's interesting, the Jeep product is barely out the door and the "opinions" start to fly.
Skip the mini van... go for the Liberty. Liberty is a sweet and unique vehicle. Everyone googles over it.
Just go to the Jeep Liberty braking in rain section and you'll be convinced that the Highlander is the right choice!
You are correct it is not a car. It is a heavy, tall and narrow, yet solid off-road capable, SUV that needs to be driven even MORE carefully than the car based SUV's like the Highlander, Escape, CRV etc.
The Higlander would be more than fine to get to the ski hill or to a hike off a forest service road.
It was found out through the 3rd party crash test at which point DC was notified of the defect.
I am really suprised that DC does not have its own crash testing facility in order to find problems such as the air bag issue, in order to avoid the embarassment through media exposure.
Kudos for DC for the immediate recall though.
Track racing: Rear-wheel drive (BMW and other sports cars)
When a car accelerates, it shifts its weight to the rear. Rear-wheel drive cars put all the power where it's needed to go fast.
Going from a stop on a slippery surface: All-wheel drive (Toyota Highlander)
All-wheel-drive can transfer power between axles (and sides with traction control) that lose traction to wheels that have traction. 4WD can't, so the car jitters and twitches as different wheels get different amounts of traction, a sensation only off-roaders enjoy.
Stuck in the snow: Four-wheel low (Jeep Liberty)
Some 4WD case transfers have a "low" mode which boosts torque and helps grip what material is available when you're stuck. AWD systems use traction control to compensate for the limitations of limited slip differentials, but they can only work to a point.
Off-roading: Four-wheel low (Jeep Liberty)
Four-wheel drive has more torque. Period. Better for off-roading.
Coasting or breaking while going around an icy or slippery corner: Stability program (Toyota Highlander)
When a driver isn't accelerating while going around a corner which happens to be icy or slippery, neither AWD nor 4WD can do a damned thing. They are drivetrains which don't do anything if there's nothing driving them. Stability programs (like Toyota's Vehicle Skid Control) use yaw sensors to compare lateral acceleration to the angle the steering wheel is pointed in. It can then brake individual wheels to effectively correct over/understeer and prevent skidding.
Accelerating around an icy corner: All-wheel drive (Toyota Highlander)
All-wheel drive helps keep a car from skidding when it's accelerating around a dangerous corner by prevent the driving wheels from spinning and applying power to the part of the car with traction.
IN OTHER WORDS:
On-road, good conditions: Highlander
On-road, foul weather: Highlander (with VSC)
The ski mountain: Either one
Off-road: Liberty
SO...
People with 4x4 cars can stop bragging about how superior they are in bad weather. Likewise, nobody with an AWD vehicle should be bragging about off-roading, either.
If you're going off-roading, buy the Liberty. If you're going to be on the road most of the time with some trips to the ski mountains and you'll see some rain and snow, the Highlander might just be the better choice.
OTHER FACTORS TO CONSIDER:
Cargo volume, per exterior size: Car-based
Car-based SUVs have more compact suspensions for lower loading floors.
Ground clearance: Truck-based
Truck-based SUVs generally ride higher.
Crash protection: Car-based
Truck-based frames are too rigid in collisions and don't absorb very much impact energy. Car-based SUVs absorb the energy of a collision more effectively.
Towing: Truck-based
Torque & power = good for towing
Ride and handling: Car-based
Fully-independent suspensions absorb more bumps in the road, and car based-SUVs have low centers of gravity for better handling.
Generalized quality & reliability (best to worst): Japanese, German, Swedish, American, British
Race Track:
With equal motors, RWD is generally better as 4WD robs too much power.
It depends on driving style as well. On some race tracks and driving styles, 4WD is preferable, if the power is available. Ever take a WRX for a drive through the twisties?
Stuck in snow:
I will have to disagree on 4-low (Liberty) being the best solution when you are stuck in snow.
How is it different than the "going from a stop on a slippey surface" answer?
LESS torque is often better to get out of the snow. In fact, shifting the tranny into 2nd gear will sometimes help you gain enough traction to get out. Some Traction Control systems actually try to "bog" the engine down to lessen the torque in order to gain traction.
On the other hand, if you are stuck because there is too much snow for your vehicle to push, then it is often an issue of engine power, ground clearance, tires, and the capability of the drivetrain to provide power to as many wheels as possible (locking differentials, LSD, transfer case mechanicals etc).
I do not understand your comment "People with 4x4 cars can stop bragging about how superior they are in bad weather"
You just listed a bunch of reasons why 4WD or AWD can help you in bad weather.
I think we also need to differentiate between Full-time AWD (Subaru et al) and Part-time automatic AWD. The Subaru system provides the best of both worlds for on-road bad & good weather situations. Its downfall is decreased efficiency.
Also, we must not confuse the "On" switch on the Ford Escape with the full-time AWD such as the Subaru's. The Escape's system in "On" should not be driven in dry conditions and can lead to erratic behaviour when cornering in the slippery stuff.
A good front wheel drive car with good winter tires can out-handle an 4WD SUV with all-seasons in the snow and ice in many situations.
Many of the vehicles that I have seen off the road, in the ditch during the winter are 4-runners, Explorers, Blazers, Jeeps etc, or poor handling cars like Ford Tempos and Chrysler K-cars.
However, from personal experience I've driven a small front wheel drive vehicle for most of my driving life through some of the worst rural on-road winter conditions you're going to find. Most times they've held up extremely well. The only things that have stopped me are lack of ground clearance and 5 inches of ice (nobody was on the road, it was easier to drive in the ditch). In almost all cases the vehicles on the side of the road in the ditch are SUVs. The reason for this is not the increased ability of the vehicle or some super duper AWD system, but the fact that the owners feel confident that they are better than the elements and that any mistake they make, their wonderful vehicle will pull them through. It's not true. All of those vehicles are usually in the ditch because of over-confidence on the part of the owner.
I now have joined the SUV crowd and own a 4x4 with the identical system to the Liberty. I love it. I wish I would have bought it when I was still in the countryside. I wouldn't have been one of those over confident people who go 55mph down an ice and snow covered road with no one around for miles but I would have always had the confidence that I would get home instead of "I think I can get home this time, I hope".
By main beef is with AWD systems that reduce power to slipping wheels by applying braking forces. My dad owned a really nice Chrysler Concorde with the Traction control system they came with. After the first decent snowfall we had, it was turned off and left off, never to be used again. The reason: when you're trying to drive through 3 miles of 8-12 inch deep snow before the plow has come around and the car keeps trying to kill your momentum by reducing power to the wheels, you're going to get stuck. The systems that supply power to the wheels that have grip (like the Jeep Quadra-Track/Drive on the Grand Cherokee) instead of braking are great. From personal experience once again I like a system that will let me break the wheels loose and power my way out of situations. Has this approach caused problems? Sure, that's why I carry a shovel with me at all times in the winter. But it has also saved me countless times from being stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Bottom line is you need to know how to drive your vehicle in the conditions you will face and know all the limitations, yours and the vehicles. Find a parking lot and test things out so you know how the vehicle handles, especially if you have a limited slip device or a locker of some sort.
The Chrysler Concorde does not have AWD.
The AWD systems in the MDX and Subaru's are very useful in slippery conditions.
your post is very misleading.
I think some the AWD systems are great, especially Subaru's. A manual shifting Forester, for example will handle exactly the same was with it's viscous-coupling centre differential as a Jeep in 4-High.
I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.
I am not talking about the pitch/yaw/directional control in higher priced vehicles such as the Acura MDX, BMW X5, Subaru VDC, Higlander Limited etc.
As to the question about which vehicles are available with these kinds of Traction Control system include the Highlander.
From canadatwo:
"Please name some AWD vehicles that are in the same price range as the Liberty that use the brakes to gain traction in AWD mode. I am not aware of any and that is why your comments are confusing."
Liberty Limited (ie the most expensive one) TMV base price from Edmunds: $22,798
From http://www.edmunds.com/new/2002/toyota/highlander/awd4drsuv30l6cyl4a/overview.html?id=lin0006
"Toyota also offers Vehicle Skid Control (VSC). This system, which includes traction control, is designed to recognize when the Highlander isn't responding to the driver's steering inputs. VSC will then apply selective braking to bring the vehicle back under control. "
Toyota Highlander AWD (non-limited, base TMV): $26,078
Now I don't know if this will kill your momentum when driving in a straight line through deep snow with the tires spinning because I've never driven one. Maybe an owner could tell us. It's different than the system I've encountered before that monitored for wheel slip. This monitors lack of steering control. I have no idea how it does that, but I do know it brakes the wheels.
Well, this topic never had anything to do with price range and, in my opinion, the Liberty and Highlander vehicles ARE in different price ranges right off the bat.
That's the problem with the Highlander/Liberty comparison in the first place. The Highlander is a Toyota Camry with a minivan body meant to stay on the road with a much higher price tag while the Liberty is a truck with a real 4x4 and transfer case. Most consumers wouldn't be seriously comparing these two vehicles, in my opinion, because they are very different animals. If they are they should drive them to see what they really want.
VSC gives additional benefit that is not available with the Liberty while cornering in the slippery stuff. This is not a situation where you would want to "power through it" with a 4x4 vehicle.
Again, there does not appear to be any AWD vehicles that apply the brakes to help gain traction while going straight ahead.
I think the advantage that a full-time 4x4 or full-time AWD system has over the part-time AWD system is that they maintain momentum in snow, while the part-time system has to wait for wheel spin. This is not a traction control braking issue as it is with 2WD cars with traction control.
Like I said in an earlier post, the Liberty at my neighbor's is leaking oil at less than 6 months. My 11 year old Camry didn't ever leave oil (or anything else) in parking lots. This is consistent with what CR reports...Toyota is one of the manufacturers that consistently report above average reliability.
I bought the vehicle that met my requirements. Those requirements don't include heavy-duty off-road use. For that, the Liberty is probably a better choice. I got a 'Camry on steriods' which is just what I was looking for. If someone else thinks I got the lesser vehicle, that's their issue not mine.
My boss told me about a friend of his the test drove a new luxury Jeep SUV and the fuel injection system failed and stranded him on the test drive. He still bought the vehicle.
Guess he also didn't read CR....