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Why no diesel 1/2 PU's?
Wasn't chevy the last one to put a diesel in a half ton? I guess when they enlarged it and turboed it, they deemed it too large for lite duty. I had good luck with the 6.2 once we found someone who could reman a fuel pump and make it live. You wouldn't win many races, but you got at least 1/3 more mpg. Suburban would consistantly get 20+ on road trips. It would not matter to me that my truck took an extra 4 seconds to get to 65 mph (I'm over the hot rod truck stage).
I know that engine weight over a half ton front frame and suspension is probably a big issue. Aren't there a few lightweight diesels in use in other applications? I remember talk several years ago about someone developing a diesel for aircraft use. What would 2/3's of a 6B Cummins (I know Cummins makes a 4B) or 3/4's of a Ford or Chevy diesel weigh? Would it be enough weight savings to fit the bill? They should be able to squeeze a coulple hundred hp out of these shoudn't they? When they produce one, I'll be there.
I know that engine weight over a half ton front frame and suspension is probably a big issue. Aren't there a few lightweight diesels in use in other applications? I remember talk several years ago about someone developing a diesel for aircraft use. What would 2/3's of a 6B Cummins (I know Cummins makes a 4B) or 3/4's of a Ford or Chevy diesel weigh? Would it be enough weight savings to fit the bill? They should be able to squeeze a coulple hundred hp out of these shoudn't they? When they produce one, I'll be there.
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Why not just go for the 3/4 ton - not that much difference in cost (before adding the diesel anyway!)
modyptnl
city bus 30,000lbs...vw rabbit 3000lbs
"He drives a gas truck and said diesels are not adapt to city stop and go driving, constant starts and stops or short 2 mile trips. Diesels are good working engines(semi-trurk, trains, generators, heavy equipment)but are not efficient for most city driving needs."
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I'm very curious about the "stop and start" comment. Besides city busses, most heavy construction equipment is constantly stopping and starting( God I wish they'd disconnect that damn back up beeper while grading by my house!!)
I'd really like to know why this is detrimental in your friends opinion.
Xyz71, I agree 100% with your comment. We'll see if the Ford 1/2 ton diesel can make people forget about GM's fiasco with 1/2 ton and car diesels.
The flipside to making a diesel economical for general car/truck duty, is getting the mpg way up there. You have to drive alot to make up the cost of fuel difference, right now it's about $.30 more for diesel where I am. $.40 for diesel supreme. My cummins diesel averages around 17-18mpg when empty. That's not far off from a gasoline engine. However hook a load to it and then compare to a gasoline truck. I recently made an 800 mile trip with another fellow and has a 99 3/4 ton Chevy with the biggest gasser he could get at that time. We were both pulling three horses, but my trailer is about 6' bigger to begin with. I was basically bored following him up the hills and when he would stop to fill up and I'd buy about 1/2 as much diesel. That's where you make up the cost difference. With my truck being on the road 50K per year usually with at least 8K behind it, it's a big difference. Nevermind the substantial pulling advantage.
Another thought...Is the diff between the cost of a gas and diesel engine as much as it was a few years ago? I could see a diesel engine costing much more when you were comparing a carbourated engine (gas) to a fuel injected one (diesel). Nowadays, the fuel injected gas engines are pretty darn sophisticated (help mr spell checker) and the diesel doesn't have to worry about a complicated and expensive ignition source and management system. Shouldn't that simplify and make comparatively less expensive, the diesel engine? I know that diesel engines have more iron in them, but iron is pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things.
The fuel price difference is where you have to make it up on mpg. Right now, 87 octane is $1.09, diesel is about a buck and a half. If a normal 1/2 ton would get 18mpg, then a diesel powered 1/2 ton would have to get 23 just to break even on cost of fuel (assuming I did the math right)!! That's probably possible with a smaller, juiced-down diesel. I didn't realize a half-ton weighed that much less than a 3/4 ton. That's about all that can explain the mpg difference though. I'm about 6500# empty if I remember correctly.
I never asked this guy to explain his opinion to me. He works on diesel trucks for a living, and drives a new gas pick-up.
I really don't like diesels but I see their virtues.(especially in the case of sebring)GM and the Duramax is getting closer, IMHO, in making a diesel more livable for me.
I'm sure your friend has forgotten more than I'll ever know about diesels but when statements are made(even by hearsay) I like to know the reason.
Maybe he drives a gas because he didn't have the $5000 extra?? Maybe he can't stand the smell being around them all day??? maybe the noise??
The stop and go driving has me perplexed. Sorry.
Hunter
Also don't forget that the v8s from the big3 all come with around 350 ft/lbs of torque, they are pretty good engines to tow with as long as the loads don't get over 6,000lbs.
In the end I agree with others, if you are buying a truck to do work buy a 3/4 or 1 ton, if you are buying it for your family and don't have to tow a 30 foot boat get a 1/2 ton with gas engine.
Also FYI, GM is promising to increase economy of their gas truck engines in the next 2 years through 2 new (well new old ideas). Displacement on Demand DOD, and gas electric hybrid. This may be why GM will not likely offer a mini diesel in the near future. (Unless Ford sells a lot of them).:)
If you need a diesel for the type of mileage you do and the better max load at altitude hauling, than so be it.
First off, anyone who buys a 200,000 mile truck is goofy, be it gas or diesel.
KBB shows a 200,000 mile '92 dodge diesel trading in for $4,400. The same gasser is $2300. You still LOST $1900 of the $4000 difference in original cost. Yes, you got back some of the initial investment but you still LOST money.
NADA shows only a $1200 difference in the diesels favor. So you still LOST $2800 compared to original purchase price.
I know it's not a constant but here diesel is a good $.20 more than reg unleaded. This puts the "break even" point, IMHO, well over 200,000 miles when you factor in increased costs of diesel maintenance, initial costs and now higher fuel costs. The diesel's greater fuel economy will take a long time to overcome all that.
I understand the diesel benefit to some but to the average Joe it's just a macho "I have a diesel" statement.
Assume if gasser 3/4 tons are only getting 12mpg (as stated above as I have no experience)empty, and a diesel is getting 16-17, gas is $1.20 and diesel is $.20/gallon more. By 100K you've saved enough to pay for the engine (assuming $4,000 new and worth half that used). Also remember when gasoline was at $2.00/gallon, diesel was about $.30/gallon less. It varys so much though it's hard to follow. I noticed a station today that diesel was $.03/gallon more than gas.
Maybe if a smaller in-house diesel comes down from the big three for lighter-duty vehicles, maybe they won't charge such a premium. My bet is the Navistar/Isuzu/Cummins deals adds a big extra layer of profit. VW has their own diesel in the Jetta/Beetle/Golf that only adds about $1300 to the sticker (getting one for sticker is another issue). 50mpg and a $1300 premium isn't hard to recoup any way you look at it.
Anyone that works their truck will easily recoup the money. Someone buying them just to look cool won't recoup diddly but that's probably not their concern. I'm sure there are some people out there though that rarely tow but still need the power. In fact when I bought mine, we weren't towing that much and it wasn't for a financial reason as much as comfort and the fact that I like towing with a diesel. But within a couple months of buying the truck, it's been on the road rather constantly and we really should have bought a dually. I'm not jumping out of this one for another year or so though. I've probably already paid for the entire $4000 engine as I'm easily getting double the mpg with the loads normally on this truck. And the few times Its had 15,000# on I'm not sure a gasser could have even done it.
One thing that blows my mind is the way the Cummins and PSD can be modified. It's incredible.
Your VW example is leaving out the fun quotient. The gasser is way more fun to drive.
Mods: I added 50hp and 100lb-ft for next to nothing. Added about 1mpg while towing.
I dunno, I've pulled with gas engines and there is no comparison on power regardless of load. I agree that acceleration is better on the gas engines up to a point. I've pulled 5000# with a 5.4L Ford and it felt pretty weak. I guess it depends on wether you want to pull everything at a high (noisey) rpm, or just puttz along in OD a majority of the trip.
I disagree on the VW also. The TDI is equal in performance to the naturally aspirated gas. The turbo gasser is I'm sure quicker, but the TDI will run. I've never been in an automatic TDI, but the 5-speeds feel quick. I test drove one for a day back in the summer of '00 when gas was so expensive. I could easily live with that car. Fairly quiet, powerful, pulled hills in 5th like nothing. The problem was the demand was so high they were getting well above sticker on them and it just didn't make sense paying that much for a small car. 50mpg or not. I could live with a the VW diesel well before a gas 4cyl. I can't stand revving all the time just to get going. The TDI feels very good around 2K rpm.
Diesels have really changed over the last few years. The Isuzu and PS are fairly quiet, and the '03 cummins is supposed to be even quieter than those. I notice very little smell unless I'm filling up. But I've also been around diesels for 15 years. If you had any relations with a GM diesel from years past, or even some of the earlier Navistars that despised winter starting, I can see having problems with a diesel. The maintenance is not that much more than a gasser. My oil changes come at 7K intervals and run about $50. I would change the oil probably at 3K on a gasser towing constantly so actually there isn't much difference at all. However repairs will be higher on the diesel, but I've been lucky. Even my past diesel held up very well and didn't need any engine related repairs.
The more I've thought about this though, I'm not so sure a 1/2 ton with a diesel would be that desirable. In smaller vehicles, the advantage of the diesel is 99% fuel mileage. I don't know that you could get enough mpg out of a 1/2 ton to benefit anything, and it would probably be too small to work the way a full-size would require. If the towing capacity was lower for a small diesel, and the fuel mileage was minimal, that doesn't seem very desirable. I think it would be more likely to happen in the small-mid size truck market. Toyota has the Hi-Lux which is a Tacoma with a diesel. I believe it gets into the 30mpg range but it's not a towing vehicle. I know alot of people that really need 4X4 trucks for their jobs, and being able to get 30mpg would be a boon to them. Plus the diesel off-road would be an advantage so now you're getting into several advantage categories to attract buyers.
Before I bought my V10 I did test drive a PSD in an Excursion.(0% for 60 months@invoice) It felt sluggish off the line compared to the gasser and the deal breaker was the wife actually got nauseas(sp?) in the back seat because of a low frequency drone that was heard and could be felt through the floor boards.(same hum in a crew cab) So one man's symphony is another man's rap!! Same could be said of the smell. I do know people that enjoy the aroma.
BTW, I applaud your honesty. A lot of diesel owners would say that regardless of load their diesel feels quicker than a gasser.
I agree 100% on the 1/2 ton not benefiting from the main advantage of a diesel which is towing max loads a lot of the time.
I would change the oil at the same intervals(why do you wait longer for the diesel???)
I'll disagree on the 4X4 comment. The diesel is more nose heavy and the torque advantage that comes in at 10,000 pounds towing really doesn't make a lot of difference off road. (unless you're pulling 10k off road. LOL!!!)
The Duramax looks very interesting(I'll have to drive quadrunners) it seems to perform more like a gasser than a diesel, being slightly higher revving and supposedly much more quiet. But back to the original question.......Is it worth $4000 more to ME or the average guy who tows moderate loads and puts 10K a year on a truck.
Short of that both you and modvptnl have made a great discussion on the topic.
Like I said economically it is probably a bad idea to get a mini diesel in a half ton truck.
If you need a work truck, or for heavy duty towing
then get a 3/4 or 1 ton with a big diesel, then you can possibly justify it.
I also believe that 5500# is load enough to justify a diesel. That's what my Dodge 4x4 half ton weighs empty. Add tools, a few folks, and you get 6K+ quick. I do quite a bit of towing and work the truck pretty hard. The truck works hard even empty driving 70 mph into a stiff head wind. It gets about 14 mpg in mixed driving. I drive about 45K miles/year. Wonder what a modern diesel would do under these circumstances? I think that it would be cost effective even with diesel prices slightly higher than gas. I wonder what the average price of diesel over the last ten years is compared to the average price of gas.
You guys are good......made me think a bit. But, if you disagree with me, you're still wrong!! (thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken) Enjoy the discussion though. Y'all seem very civilized. Can't we get an idiot to jump in?
Here is the short version of what I was trying to say. Diesels are cheaper to maintain. Sure the oil changes cost about twice as much but that is because the filter is twice as big and they hold twice the oil. The real difference is that diesels need very little maintinance compared to a gasser. No plugs, wires, caps, rotors, timing belts... All most diesels require is keeping the fluids and filters clean. That's it. Diesels also live about 3X longer than gassers. Diesels are also very tough. Nothing ever breaks. The money you spend on tune ups and repairs to a gasser easily make up for the expense of an oil change on a diesel. Do not forget the big one... NO SMOG CHECKS! That is $50 a pop if you pass and how much is your time worth to run all these extra gasser related errands? I truly believe diesels are cheaper in the long run and if you need that kind of power it is a bonus.
modvptnl
I strongly disagree with you about off roading. Low end torque is everything off road ask anyone who knows... Like me
Acceleration on the cummins is only slow through 1st gear and half of second. Once the turbo kicks in watch out. The '03 cummins is supposed to have a revised turbo which is expected to give very "gas-like" (scary phrase) acceleration off the line. I'll be watching. High speed acceleration runs are quick as well, however it takes a bit for the turbo to come on line and that's where it feels slow. Once the turbo is running, it'll put you in your seat.
7K oil changes are more than adequate on a cummins or PSD. A gasser is working much harder & running at much higher rpm's, has smaller filters, usually alot less oil, and less sophisticated oiling systems. The commercial trucks I worked around went 300K easy on 7K-10K changes in very heavy-duty stop & go driving.
Offroading: torque is what's important. That's pretty much what low-range is all about. A 4cyl turbo-diesel weighs no more than a V6. The diesel tacomas are off-road machines (that's what all those Taliban are driving around in). Lots of idling, high-torque demand situations, low-speed crawling, and 30mpg on the road would make for a grand all-purpose truck. But a 1/2 ton isn't the best off-roader and 30mpg is asking alot so the small trucks are better positioned for a diesel IMHO. If as twinscrew said a 1/2 ton Dodge (didn't say what model) weighs 5500#, not much less than my 4X4 Quad Cab 3/4 weighs. Last time I was on the scales mine was round 6500# with two passengers and cargo.
catam:
I was looking at Jetta diesels as I really can't see myself in a beetle:) The smallest gas engine for the Jetta was rated somewhere around 30mpg highway. That's pretty cummy for a small 4cyl IMHO, but anyway the difference is about 20mpg between the gas and diesel. That takes it to 300,000 to recoup the entire initial cost. However a quick look at edumunds, a used 96 Jetta TDI is $1000 more than a similar equipped gas model. That's probably a stretch but there is definetetly some value to the diesel on the other end.
However, it is a gamble. Back when I was considering one, diesel was $.30 LESS per gallon so it was easy to imagine the savings. That was good for $3000 in fuel savings over 100K miles. However prices have swung the other way, although they bounce so much it's hard to say. When I first posted a week or so ago, diesel here was $.40/gallon more. This weekend I made a trip and a big truck stop up around Cleveland, OH had diesel cheaper than gas by about a penny. Back home now, diesel is $.08/gallon more. It would definetely be a gamble today. If gasoline was to go back to $2.00/gallon and stabalize you might see a demand for small diesel vehicles again. Of course, there are many other cheaper 4cyl cars that get into the 40mpg range. The Jetta is much nicer than those vehicles, and alot more fun to drive so a financial comparison between other models isn't really fair. A Camry sized vehicle getting 50mpg would be nice and that's probably not far away with hybrids and 45 volt systems, so there may never be much demand here for small diesels.
I think you're living in the past as far as maintenance. Except for the toys, there are no timing belts on the V8 or v10's. Hasn't been distributors or rotors in years and the gassers use a coil on plug ignition saving having to change wires. Plugs are due at 100,000 miles. should cost me around $20 at that time.
Diesels have twice the capacity of oil, more expensive filters and extra filters. I've also been told that a PSD water pump is $700, don't know about the Cummins.
Sebring, we'll just agree to disagree on the oil changes. A good synthetic in either motor will withstand the manufacturers oil change interval even at higher operating speeds or loads. My limited knowledge on the diesels is that oil changes are even more critical on a diesel than on a gasser because of the nature of diesel fuel and the massive compression contaminate the engine oil quicker. Doesn't the PSD use engine oil to run the injector pump or something????
The bottom line on the acceleration is that a gasser will out run the diesels 0-60, 1/4 mile empty and with a moderate load. The throttle response is also much greater on the gasser as you've agreed to. After you've bombed your Cummins, all bets are off. LOL!!!
With out being rude, I could give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] what the talibuttholes are driving.
It makes more sense in a similar 2500 where the load capacity starts at 3335#. But, even there, unless you are towing a big trailer the benefits of a diesel are offset by the loss in load capacity from the much heavier diesel engine.
My current truck is a Silverado 2500 4x4 with the 6.0L gas engine. With the same camper and 2000# load on board I've averaged 15 mpg for the last 27,000 miles. Typical highway mileage is 16-16.5mpg.
Don't get me wrong, I like diesels. But I think they make more sense in heavier duty trucks where the torque is most important, and in cars where you don't lose 20-25% of your load capacity.
Mike L
I think the targeted truck owners for the 1/2 ton diesels would be the people that tow around 5000# for long distances frequntly like me. I tow a 5000# boat 700 miles round trip almost every weekend in the summer.
If you are towing a heavy trailer (10,000#+) a diesel probably makes sense. But, a 3/4 ton truck is a less expensive upgrade for towing 6-10,000# than a diesel.
Mike L
Mike L
Your off roading scenario makes sense to me.
A diesel 1/2 ton should achieve at least 30 mpg hiway. A 1980 International Scout turbodiesel which is 20 year old technology and was equivalent to a tank in weight would get 30 mpg on hiway.
A light duty diesel would be either 4 cyl. or 6 cyl. and would not need to weigh any more than a gas 8 cyl. or 6 cyl..
Diesel provides high amount of torque at low rpm which is perfect for the type of driving in US. Diesel excels in stop and go driving.
Above the opinion was stated that diesel was not suited to passenger cars and they were not suited to 1/2 ton trucks either.
Using the VW TDI as an example I want to point out that the TDI creates 150lb ft. of torque at 1900 rpm, weighs w/in 100 # of 2.0L gas VW motor, 55 mpg highway, uses same amount of oil as gas motor, has maintenance cost similar to or less than gas motor, is quiet, has no odor after initial start, cost of diesel is less than cost of 1.8T gas version of same VW,oil change is every 10,000 miles, and most of these traits can be applied to a 1/2 ton truck application.
A diesel engine has greater thermal efficiency than gasoline and this is never going to change due to the laws of physics. Diesel fuel has more btu per gallon than gasoline. Hybrids may end up being powertrain of future but I am willing to bet they end up with a diesel attached to them.
Diesel fuel can be made from soybean oil, hemp oil, canola oil, waste fryer oil, and is therefore a renewable resource. Can the same be said for gasoline?
If you can possibly put the disastrous diesels of GM out of your mind, would you buy a 1/2 ton diesel truck if it got 30 mpg plus, weighed no more than gasoline version, cost no more than $1000 difference than gas motor, had much greater torque and nearly the same acceleration as gas, and was not possible to differntiate noise from gasoline motor at speed and only slightly noiser at idle than gasoline motor? This is all possible with technology of the past 4 years and the exhaust no longer smells after the initial warm up of the motor.
As soon as low sulfur diesel arrives then pollution will not be a problem either.
Just my 2 cents.
You are correct though Mod. Just because diesels have more oil capacity and bigger filters doesn't mean you can extend the service intervals. Just like you said, diesel engines put more contaminants in the oil requireing bigger filters and more oil. Over the road trucks that operate continuously at freeway speeds can go 10,000 between changes, but not our stop and go daily drivers. Just because diesels are tough doesn't mean we can get away with neglecting them.
Certainly isn't going to hurt to change more often, but just like anything else at what point is there a financial benefit? If you instead change it at 3.5K over 300K you're going to spend an extra $2000 on oil changes. And for the most part, engines have a life regardless of oil changes. Changing the oil twice as often doesn't mean the engine is going to last twice as long. If this was the case heavy trucks would get the oil changed at 7.5K instead of 15K because in that case it's much cheaper than an overhaul. Parts alone for a Detroit will run you $17,000. There are some exceptions out there, where people get 5X-10X the expected life out of an engine, but they are so rare you're odds of hitting the powerball are better.
I know of few gassers doing alot of towing that have gone 150K miles without problems. The new Chevy engines still have something to prove, but I've seen plenty of engines pulled long before 150K. Some are lucky to make 150K on grocery duty.
I do know quite a few people that drive a ton of miles and need a work truck. IF it was as moparbad described above, the main point being that it can get 30mpg, then I agree it would sell. I don't know if it's actually possible, but that's about the point there would be a demand for it. My uncle drives a gasser 1/2 ton 4X4 loaded with construction equipment 150 miles per day. His current truck is 5 years old and gets terrible gas mpg. Engine was rebuilt around 120K. If he could haul his equipment, get 25-30mpg, and most likely make it to 300K before a rebuild i'm sure he'd buy one. And these trucks don't "fall apart" after 150K miles. Granted you're going to need some repairs but anyone that works a vehicle knows this. Not many trucking companies expect a vehicle to go 1M without touching anything even though the engine can go that far. Alternators, rear-ends, clutchs, etc. don't last that long even on heavy-duty trucks.
-- Don