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Anyway, what is the advantage of buying a 2004 Element EX if 2003 Element EXs are still around and discounted below invoice? The information on the honda site is not clear.
Thanks.
Jeff Ray
In other words, if you can save a grand or more now, buy the left over 2003. There's also the opportunity cost (or interest) on that money, so you'll be better off taking the better deal now.
SUV Innovations in the past 3 years:
* 20" chrome rims
* more bling-bling
* huge gaping grilles
* huge gaping logos
* faux off roader styling
* spreewheels, i.e. Spinner rims
That's about it! )
-juice
I think there will be a gap in what the insurance company thinks your '03 car is worth vs. a wrecked '04, even if the mileage is the same. Any adjusters out there who could weigh in?
Steve, Host
-juice
Unfortunately, in this day and age, so many people overspend on cars and end up way upside down, especially in the first couple year of payments. A car is such a poor "investment" to begin with, it's too bad that dealers will try to shoehorn people into cars they really can't afford. Oh well, another topic for another board.
Since the MSRP of the '04 Elements is not going up that much, this may not be a real big deal. Steve raises a legitimate point though. I wonder what insurance estimates are based on? If it's a percentage of MSRP, purchasing an '03 now may actually be a benefit since the discounts are so deep. Pay $18,500 for an '03 that's listed over $20K and maybe you've covered the depreciation already.
The "magic seat" was part of the package with the original Ody back before the 1999 redesign. That feature didn't make a big splash because the vehicle didn't gather much attention. Hey, some Ford SUVs have power folding seats.
The folding second row is about it as far as unique features go. In my mind that pales in comparison with the plethora of new AWD systems, mid-gates, power-sliding roof panels, origami seating configurations, small truck beds, and other features that have been added to SUVs.
Sorry, back to our regularly scheduled program.
The pre-99 Odyssey was not a true minivan. It was a great wagon lacking only a V6.
The Ford SUV's power folding seats are slow and leave gaps for the cargo, plus lift over is way high.
Mid-gates are on pickups, and actually I think that segment has progressed more than SUV have.
The minivan segment was losing steam, but they've really picked up to bring back attention, and I'm guessing they'll succeed in at least maintaining segment share.
Basically I think you'll find one or two innovations in any given SUV, but I can name about half a dozen on one of the better minivans.
OK, I'll give the Element 3: suicide style doors, removeable seats (inconvenient, but still enough to mention), and water-resistant interior. Even then the latter two could be made even better.
-juice
My fearless prediction.
-juice
And yes, a "true" hose-out interior would be nice. My dealer specifically told me not to, not only because there's no drain, but also because the subwoofer is right on the floor and it's not exactly waterproof. All the electrical wires are apparently right under the floor also, so any small crack in the floor could be not so good.
I'd also like to see one small modification to the clamshell tailgate: Do whatever the GM engineers did with the tailgate on the new Envoy. Now that's innovative. Love how it can fold down like a standard tailgate or swing open like a CR-V.
Chris
Hybrid: how could I even forget that? I drove the Prius and it impressed the *heck* out of me. Not many cars do that.
-juice
That's entirely your opinion. And it's not much different than all the people who consider the Forester a wagon rather than an SUV.
"The Ford SUV's power folding seats are slow and leave gaps for the cargo, plus lift over is way high."
By today's standards, the Ody's folding third row is a poor design. But it's still credited as an innovation. The quality of the design is not the issue.
"Mid-gates are on pickups."
Full-size Envoy. It's got a power midgate that seals off the back and a retracting roof over the cargo area. In fact, the Model X concept vehicle had similar roof design (without the midgate). The production model just got the rear sunroof. FWIW, most of those "pick-ups" are SUVs with a bed. Ford's Sport Track is a good example.
The only new innovation unique to the current minivan crop is the fold flat second row. I can't think of anything else that is unique to vans. Even that is just a variation on the folding seats found in every SUV.
Vans are getting better. No doubt about that. But not as a direct result of new features and innovations. AWD, big engines, luxury content, stability control, and DVD systems are neither new nor unique to vans. At most, they are just reapplying existing features from other vehicles. SUVs are doing the same, just as quickly.
My wish list for the Element includes that removeable roof panel I mentioned above. This would require a glass panel that raises and lowers from the tailgate. Also the tailgate should fold down (as it does now), but then slide under the cargo floor like a drawer. Just to get it out of the way when loading/unloading cargo.
Think there could be any truth to that?
For mininvans, I'm talking about the last few months! The split-fold disappearing 3rd row, and the stow-no-go 2nd row are both very recent. Both are also unique to the minivan segment.
Impressively, the rate of improvement has accelerated. I don't think that has happened to the SUV segment yet. Note how all competing minivans are rushing to catch up, and have changed significantly in the past year (Honda is about to also, their product cycle is a year away).
Element is unique and impressive in its own way, but still, I see more room for improvement here than I do for, say, the Sienna and DCX vans. Honda could get it to seat 5, and maybe get the seats to disappear. Maybe even V6 power?
Both segments are improving, sure, but the rate within the minivan segment is quicker, IMO.
-juice
Check for hidden charges and/or fees.
-juice
I'm picking it up tonite!
You can't negotiate those, so go for it. What color? Trans? Options?
-juice
Anyhow, I'm planning on installing the keyless entry, approx $107 shipped and it takes only 5 mins. My salesman did pitch that acceessory again to me before I left, but I just smiled and said no ($300, no thank you, even if they would come to my house to install it). Other than that, it took 45 min b/c I and my brother and a friend read through everything before signing; I didn't want to inadvertenly sign something to waive my rights if anything went wrong. I also took the yellow copies off myself and put them in the folder I brought along.
If I was a better negotiator, I could have probably had them toss in the keyless with the $18750 price, since it costs them less than $100 and other honda dealers will "beat any prie by $100". I could also have pressed the $45 documentation fee. I nenver did pay a destination fee of $460. Hope this helps everyone.
-juice
If this is not the right site, perhaps someone can re-direct me.
Fitzmall.com has a Forester X auto right now for $19,464, and that comes with side air bags standard, plus they offer head protection (check IIHS' site - best SUV ever tested). ABS, AWD, A/C, and a CD are standard. If safety matters, also consider it's an IIHS Best Pick in front offset tests, and NHTSA gave it quadruple 5 stars. No competitor matches that perfect record.
Price is close, so you should buy the one you prefer.
Element gives up the 5th seat, has a donut spare, and less payload and towing. Forester X gives up the alloy rims (still 16", plus a full size spare) and that rear roof opening.
Both have cladding on the lower portions, the stuff on the Forester is like teflon - virtually bullet-proof. Some Element owners complain of easy scratching but I didn't notice that.
Acceleration is similar, but Forester IMO handles better, it should since it's lower to the ground. Element offers a higher vantage point and far more adventurous styling.
Forester's AWD is full-time, so both axles always get some power, while Honda's is on-demand and for slippery surfaces only. Honda's acts like FWD on dry surfaces.
Forester will probably get slightly better gas mileage, but in the big picture both are efficient in this class.
Quality on both is exemplary, near the top of CR reliability charts, too. Honda's warranty is 3/36, Subaru does better here stretching that to 5/60 for the powertrain and offering free roadside assistance for the first 3 years.
If you're starting to feel that I like both, then you'd be right. Bottom line? See if the Element fits your needs first. The 4 seats and front seat belt anchored to the rear door sort of limit its usefulness as a family car (CR-V is better there), but its spunky and would be fun to own as long as it meets your needs.
Good luck shopping.
-juice
I do like the Subaru warranty, and I wonder if the resale will hold up more versus the "trendier" Element.
One thing you might help me on: I can't seem to understand the benefit of the Forester XS AWD over the X AWD. The salesman explained it, but it didn't make much sense (he kept saying that the manual was different from the automatic, too, in both trims, at which point I got lost). I am only interested in a manual; is there a difference between X and XS? Is it worth 2 grand?
Forester resale is good. My '98 is still worth about $8-10 grand, or about half of what I paid nearly 6 years ago. 50% resale after that much time is excellent, IMO, some domestics lose 50% of their value in 2 years!
Element should also have good resale. CR-V does.
Element is FWD, when the front axle slips the rears kick in, so think of it as part-time automatic 4WD. Both front and rear differential are open (unmanaged).
Forester X auto has full-time AWD. Default power split is 80/20, so it too feels like FWD, but it's different in that it can be pro-active (i.e. send power to the rear when going up that muddy hill before you slip).
The Forester XS adds a rear limited-slip differential. That allows it to shift power side-to-side on the rear axle. Element does not offer that even as an option.
IMO both of these vehicles deserve a good traction control system, which effectively would manage both axles. Let me go a step further and ask for stability control.
For now, either is adequate, with the slight edge going to the Forester for being proactive and for offering a rear LSD. Both will make it up your dirt road easily.
5 speed Subies have a center viscous coupling and a default 50/50 torque split, but let's not get into that because that'll just overwhelm you at this point.
-juice
Thanks all.
Honda engineers the air bags and seat belts for a certain range of seat positions. 10 inches is enough that whatever safety features they built in will be compromised.
I've seen lots of mini- and large vans equipped with ramps and stuff like that, but never an Element.
Do you know of any organizations that help out in that regard? Here is a group that we donate to each year, they send us mailing labels and stuff like that:
http://www.unitedspinal.org/
Good luck.
-juice
varmint "Honda CR-V Owners: FAQ" Dec 3, 2003 1:17pm
I'm going into negotiation on a
"2004 EX 4WD Manual with side air bags".
Or what is the 2003 and likely price increase percent so we can make a really good guesstimate???
Is Honda gonna show any concept at Detroit? I'll be there on the 7th, so I'll check them out.
Hey, where's Paul? Don't tell me he's gonna pop in to say he bought one then disappear for another 4 years like last time! )
-juice
Pb
So, anyone get gifts for their vehicle? I did.
)
-juice
I treated mine CRV to a few drinks at the local Amoco station on the corner! Oy! Can she slam it down!!!
Ah, well,... it's Xmas...
(At least she doesn't have a drinking problem like the
2004 Ford Excursion XLT 4WD 4dr SUV (6.8L 10cyl 4A) that was there...)
Pb
I wonder if Honda did pay for that placement, given a taxi would probably be the least likely real-world application for a vehicle like that.
-juice
Looks like a tan/silver.
I wonder what the situation is with the interior colors for the Element?
Looks so far like there are pictures of the dark gray interior and a gray seats/green dashboard interior for the Galapagos green EX in Honda's press pictures.
Maybe the Eternal Blue Pearl gets a corresponding blue/gray int?
Looks like the interior colors will be pretty spartan in the production model. Quite a departure from the funky, colorful Model X and eary Element concepts.
Ah well, I guess you won't even see the interior much with all the mud and sand and GOAT hair that will be tracked into those little boxy buggers.