Options
Toyota Matrix vs. Mazda Protege5
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Regarding the list above, I agree that the ZX5, Pro 5, and Matrix will be close. I don't know the order, but the Focus seems to get awesome reviews, so I'd pick that first. I think most car rags lean more towards sport, so the P5 would be second and the Matrix third. Again, this is just my guess.
Anyway, until someone actually does a test, we can just keep arguing it here!
The Pro5 suffers from a slow-ish 0-60 time of 9.2 sec. (Car & Driver) due to it's need to shift into 3rd to get there. The car is geared low and is incredibly zippy around town. Most cars are built to hit 60 in 2nd. There was a great article in Sport Compact Car recently about how car manufacturers are "cheating" their buyers by gearing their cars for optimum magazine 0-60 times instead of optimum gearing for real-world driving. 0-60 is a silly thing to pay attention to. I don't get to do that too often... do you? My most frequent hard accelerations are 0-35 and 35-65. I'd just as soon have my car be geared for those conditions.... and the Protege5 is. :-D
Personally I fall in love with my silver P5 every time I see it. It's pretty, fun to drive and I can carry stuff.
Of course now they'll come out with a more powerful version that I could have gotten had I waited. (sigh)
Don't sweat it, think the same thing often! :-D
It looks like a limited edition, Turbo-charged Protege Sedan will be coming this fall, but it will be after the redesign before the wagon/hatch body style get's more power.
____________________________________________
Turbocharged Mazda MP3 at NYIAS...
Source:
New York Times
February 17, 2002
"But those willing to wait will soon get another chance to buy this car, or one much like it, in a Mazda showroom. Impressed by customers' enthusiasm — and by reviewers' disappointment in the lack of power — Mazda has decided to produce a new version that it will unveil this spring, perhaps at the New York auto show next month. The car will get a new name and, praise the engineers, a turbocharger to give the engine enough juice to match the suspension.
No word yet on how much more the MP3's successor will cost than the $18,500 Mazda charged for the 2002 model. But in light of the traffic jam among under-$20,000 performance cars — think of the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V, Honda Civic Si, Ford SVT Focus, Dodge Neon R/T, Toyota Matrix XRS and Pontiac Vibe GT — a big price increase probably isn't in the tea leaves."
____________________________________________
Most freeway ramps aren't like that, instead you'll do the usual 25 or 35mph on the ramp and then 25-65 or 35-65 to merge (sometimes 35-85 if it is a left fastlane merge). Unless someone breaks down before they make it onto the freeway, 0-60 is rare there.
If you want real performance you don't try to mate an engine and tranny for a particular speed, you space the gears for the engine's power band and you programme the automatic to use them when floored. Stickers will figure it out for themselves but if the power band of the engine isn't matched by the tranny you'll come up low or you'll miss part of it.
Personally I am not sure how well the Matrix's styling will hold up over time, you might end up feeling how some Beetle drivers feel nowadays (like they're wearing Michael Jackson's "thriller" jacket!). I think the sides of the Matrix are quite nice, but the nose ugly. If exclusivity is an issue, you'll see a lot more Matrix's and Vibes in 6 mos. And is either dealer much closer, for when you have to bring it in?
Really, they're both excellent vehicles. Toyota's massive marketing budget may skew impressions, but the Matrix is no more of a crossover or radical notion that the Pro5.
Good luck.
This car will be limited numbers (like the MP3 was) and will be called either the "Mazdaspeed 3" or the "Protege MPS."
There is NO information about a Protege5 version of this car.
Protege5
- pros-better driving dynamics, better seats and interior, been on the market for more time, clean design, $500-1000 cheaper, better financing.
-cons-narrow tires and angled taillights gives car wimpy looks from behind (subjective), a lot of comments on these boards about door rattling, engine noise, and poor gas mileage, Mazda is a company is a bit unknown to me and they have had problems in the past.
Matrix
-pros-better cargo area, higher, Toyota brand quality, better stature or presence, better standard features (adjustable intermittent wipers, better door lock system, air filter), better resale value (negates better financing), stronger possibility it will suit my lifestyle longer.
-cons-first year car, no track record, no bargaining power, exterior design is a little busy, seat aren't as comfortable, Pontiac radio and who knows what else.
That is all I can think of at this point. Feel free to fill in any blanks and give any insights. It is quite a pickle. It might come down to flipping a coin. :-)
- door rattling: you are right, for some reason a lot of P5s subjected to minor rattle from passenger door, all thought my P5 (7 months old, 12k miles) doesn't have this defect.
- engine noise. It doesn't seem to me there is a lot of comments about it. People occasionally feel that the engine doesn't run smoothly when it's cold outside for about few minutes after it starts. That's because the engine materials are iron/aluminum combo, and it needs the right temperature for them to fit perfectly (different expansion coefficients).
- poor gas mileage: true, there are few isolated cases, but it seems dealer can fix it quickly (defected of oxygen sensor here, some wire get lose there). Otherwise the rest of us get pretty decent mileage.
- P5 is a close cousin of the Protege sedans, and we all (P5/Protege's owners) can attest you that the reliability of these cars are among the best on the market.
Bruno
I am not positive that the radio in the Matrix is a Pontiac radio but I have been in a couple of other GM cars with the exact same style of buttons. The Corolla, which the Matrix is based on has a different style of buttons on its' radio. On the Corolla they have a more polished look. I figured, based on the similiarity in appearance of the Matrix radio to other Pontiac radios and its' dissiimiliarity to other Toyota radios, that Toyota may have used the Pontiac radio in the Matrix. They may have done this to cut costs or as a concession to GM. If it is the case, what other GM parts have they used in the Matrix? Just conjecture not fact.
bluong1, I have only been lurking here for about a week but have read most of the past two months of posts. My comments about the door rattling, engine noise on cold start, and poor gas mileage were taken from other peoples comments on the boards. I obviously have no ownership experience with either car. You are right the Proteges have a great reliability record. Here in Canada there is a book series called "the Lemon Aid guide" that reviews used and new cars. It is the Bible for used car buyers in Canada. Proteges are one of the few cars in their class that receive a "recommended" rating (their highest rating). My Dad would never buy a car that wasn't recommended by the Lemon Aid guide. Thanks for sticking up for the Protege 5. Part of the difficulty I've had in deciding which one to buy has been that I haven't been able to get to which one I "REALLY WANT". As rbeland said, they are both great choices and I think I would be happy with either one. Based on my omission of the facts that you pointed out I am starting to think I might have a bit of a bias in favour of the Toyota. Whew, that was a lot of typing.
One more question, does anyone think the seats and interior of the Matrix are better than that of the Protege 5 or is it a consensus that the P5's seats and interior are better?
Don't make yourself make a decision until you test drive both, preferably back-to-back, one right after the other.
When you test drive, ignore all distractions (aka salesperson) and just feel how the car responds to your inputs, and which one feels most 'at home' to you. You'll kick yourself later if you let something like interior space to be the ultimate deciding factor on your purchase. IMO the most important thing when testdriving a car is how the car 'connects' with the driver.
Back in post #49, I posed the question looking for any objective specifications which put the XR over the P5. Reading through the last 20some postings, I can count the Matrix advantages on 1 hand WITH FINGERS TO SPARE!!!
The only real (objective) advantage brought up in favor of the Matrix is space. Granted, the Matrix DOES have some height over the P5 (perhaps this is why some have called it a mini-minivan). But in looking at the numbers here is what I found...
The cargo volume (with seats up) in the matrix is 21.8 cu ft vs. 20.0 in the P5. So then you ask, what about with the seats down? There is no data available BUT the total passenger volume in the XR is 96.2 cu ft vs. 93.0 in the P5. So as you can see, there is NOT a huge difference!!! (If you are hauling a dog or other objects of height, then you might care) But for everyone else, the difference is only a few cubic feet (hardly the semi-trailer's worth of space some have made it seem)!!!
last but not least, IMO the seats/interior of the P5 are certainly superior to the matrix. the P5 seats are firm and supportive, and with the tight suspension, really provide for a great drive. the dash, etc is also more classy and ergonomic than the matrix. (there was a post earlier about someone having to bend over to see the spedometer, tachometer??!?!?!)
With all the rattles and such people are getting on the P5 I'm a bit concerned. Plus I had the accelerator all the way to the floor while trying to enter the interstate on my test drive. The P5 has nice power until you get in the 40 mph stage. Then it drops. The P5 is a nice car but I think the Matrix is better quality.
As far as space goes I think the Matrix has more USABLE space. That's mainly if you plan on hauling anything. The floors are flatter and don't have carpet and the haul space is a bit taller. (this is all seats down). Also the Matrix is supposed to have a couple of neat things that you should be able to get later like a pull out bike rack (front tires off) that you can hold two bikes vertically on a pull out tray. This was on a show car but supposedly....(you know the drill)
I still think that these cars are aimed at different mindsets. For me the sporty feel and incredible suspension was the kicker. For others the flat hauling space and fold flat front passenger seat may be the kicker towards the Matrix.
All said and done I don't think that reliability or resale should be a problem on either car.
My wife and I (she's 35, I'm 37 next week) just purchased, about three weeks ago, a Protege5 to replace her 1995 Cavalier. (I drive a 2000 Protege ES, and I've had two other Proteges before this one. So this is our fourth Protege.)
We have a 9-month-old son. The Protege5's back seat is wonderful for his car seat. Everything fits very nicely without the front passenger seat having to be moved up to accommodate the child seat. The new LATCH system and tether anchor point behind the rear seat made baby seat installation a snap.
Our $220, top-of-the-line stroller (they actually call it a "baby travel system," LOL) folds up and fits neatly in the cargo area with room to spare for a couple bags of groceries.
I don't know what this concern over engine noise is all about -- my wife's car is quiet as hell -- much quieter than my 2000 ES was before I purchased my new tires (Dunlops, like on my wife's P5) to replace the noisy Bridgestone Potenzas that came on my car. I think her car rides very smoothly. I'm very jealous!
The current 2.0-liter engine in the P5 is a bored-out version of the 1.8-liter that has been in the Protege lineup since 1999 -- and this engine is a derivative of the original 1.8 that powered Proteges all the way back to 1990. It's a very proven engine. I've got 33,000 miles on my 2000 ES now, and it hasn't been to the shop for anything except a CD player that I jammed and a trunk clip that I broke while shoving too big a box into my trunk one summer afternoon. My 1992 LX (top of the line Protege back then) went 83,000 miles and NEVER WENT TO THE SHOP FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE. And I drove it for Pizza Hut its entire life, putting those 83,000 miles on it in only 26 months!!!
But one of the real reasons I'm sold on these cars is this: My first Protege, a 1992 LX, went too long on a set of bald tires. I hydroplaned one August afternoon and hit the back of a stopped Volvo station wagon (aka "brick wall") going 45 mph. Totaled the car. I walked out of it. There's a pic of my totaled car, showing how well it's designed to protect you, under "Meade's Proteges" at this address:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mazdaprotege/lst
Keep in mind they didn't have air bags back then. This car and its apparently wimpy little, motorized passive restraint belt saved my life.
We purchased our P5 with functionality as well as style in mind, and so far it has not let us down. With Sean and his stroller in the car, we can still go to Costco and do our week's shopping and not feel squeezed in. The seats on both of our cars are very comfortable to me -- and that's saying something. I'm 6-1 and approaching 280 pounds. And to think that I can put those seats where I like them, and then get around in the back seat and have leg room -- the space in these things beats my Dad's Buick, if you'll believe that.
Good luck with your choice -- sure, I'm biased after four of these cars -- but I'm no dummy, and I wouldn't have just purchased my fourth Protege if prior experience hadn't convinced me that these are great little cars.
Meade in Virginia
Bruno
But...bottom line my dogs will probably prefer the bigger back seat of the Matrix. After all, isn't that what is important?
Sounds like a Matrix XRS is on your horizon southpaw, planning to buy anytime soon?
I have a deposit down while my dealer searches for a red XRS for me.
Yes it was a very hard decision and the P5 come from behind to win. I figured a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The Mazda is a known quantity which reduces a lot of the risk. Plus I enjoy driving it much more. It has much superior drving dynamics and I much prefer the cockpit. I am going to cross my fingers on the noises issue and hope for the best. Thanks to everyone for their comments and especially to matrix and mdaffron for their reassurances on cargo space and practicality with kids. Last but not least I have way more bargaining power with the dealers. For a Blue, 5spd, air conditioning, security system, cargo mat, and undercoating treatment I am offering them CDN$24000 on the road, all taxes in. That is about $1500 below msrp. So far the closest deal I have from a dealer is $24300. I am going to hold on for $24000 for another week. After that I'll be happy with $24300. Any advice?
I got the CDN invoice price for both cars from carcostcanada.com if anyone wants them.
Protege 5-$18477
Matrix- $19233, I don't think this will do anyone any good for another couple of months though. The dealers won't negotiate at all.
It's all a matter of individual priorities. After test driving lots of cars, I've concluded that I need a fun drive. The Protege5 gives that plus lots of practical usability, so it's on my short list for purchase. Especially with the prospect of a Triptonic transmission on the horizon.
Other cars on my short list: the Subaru WRX (AMAZING ride! but probably overkill for my commute) and the Acura TL (wonderful car - but a bit too large for my taste, and of course it's almost $10,000 more).
I really think it comes down to the test drive. You have to analyze the features either before or after and figure out what the best balance is for you, but I've found a surprising number of cars that looked great on paper (or in the showroom) and were not a good ride. Others - the Protege5 included - were not nearly as impressive in the showroom, but get on the road, and it's a different story.
[ I really think it comes down to the test drive. You have to analyze the features either before or after and figure out what the best balance is for you, but I've found a surprising number of cars that looked great on paper (or in the showroom) and were not a good ride. Others - the Protege5 included - were not nearly as impressive in the showroom, but get on the road, and it's a different story.]
Write on! I'm better shut myself up before someone tells that there is too many comments by P5's owners on this discussion topic.
Bruno
P5 pros - Great looks, fun to drive, decent amount of storage space, decent on gas (I'm assuming) and non-hatchback models are known for their reliability
Matrix pros - Tons of storage space, slightly better on gas (I'm assuming), better interior, excellent sounding stereo, Toyota resale value/reliability
P5 cons - Could use more power, slightly smaller storage and maybe it's not as good on gas as the Matrix
Matrix cons - Could use a lot more power (the model I test drove was WEAK!), okay looking, but on the strange/ugly side, dealers want too much for the car, first year model
All my car expert friends have told me NEVER to buy a first year model. Not even a Toyota. So I'm not sure what I'll do. I like both of the cars. My needs are good gas mileage, lots of storage space and decent looks (in that order). The Matrix seems to have the edge, but part of me doesn't want to be caught dead in it. Who knows? Maybe I'll just keep driving my 1992 Geo Metro around until it calls it quits. It only has 168,000 miles on it and is still going strong. Praise and glory be to God!
Although these comments aren't new, my observations are:
Protege5: Great looks, great handling and a much more conventional profile (good or bad depending on taste).
On the downside, Mazdas are not renowned for reliability.
Matrix: Great looks, decent handling and an unconventional profile (ditto above), with Toyota quality and reliability. The "first year syndrome" does not apply in this case, since the powertrain has been around for years, and Toyota's assembly quality is legendary. Resale value is assured simply on the basis of the nameplate.
Beyond that, it is purely an emotional decision. How lucky for us that we have these two wonderful cars to choose from!!
I thought the Pro 5 looked ok and drove fine but this is a second car for us (also have a Subaru Forester S) and the Pro 5 with A/C is $21,800 or so Canadian. We wanted keyless entry and A/C along with good gas mileage for the second car. My wife has a bit of a commute and the Forester does great in the winter but mileage is poor.
So when the Matrix came out with a Base with a "B" option package that includes power locks, keyless entry, alloy wheels. and also came standard with a CD player, rear wiper, outside temp guage....We were very happy...all for only $19,800(we actually got $600 off MSRP so 19,200) Plus it has more rear leg room than the Forester. It is also a nice height for driving...almost as high as the Forester. The looks are a little odd but getting the base car in black (no skirting) and tinting the back windows creates a great look!
Both interiors were nice but I like the silver touches. Also, the Matrix did feel tighter and more solid. Remember it's built at a plant that has Lexus standards(rx300). One thing I didn't like on the base Matrix was the lower center console...the XR has a higher one....but then I found someone the net who works at the Ont. plant and he sent us the XR console! (advantage...Canada plant) He also told me that quality control was incredible. Plus the dealer service dept known by everyone as the best around our area...and it's only 5 minutes away. Also, the Matrix is a 2003 model year...so that helps in retained value...and Mazda's aren't respected as well for resale here as Toyota.
So lots of things factor into muying decisions....for us the Matrix was the best choice. As for people talking about 4 wheel disk brakes....we have had both and I find that with all the salt here in the winter that upkeep costs are much higher on rear disks.
So drive both and consider all the factors. I think they are both fine vehicles.
Untrue. The Protege lineup has been on EVERY consumer magazine's Best Buy list for the last 8-10 years. Some of the American (Ford) built Maxdas have been less then stellar, but the Japanese Protege's have been excellent.
"So when the Matrix came out with a Base with a "B" option package that includes power locks, keyless entry, alloy wheels. and also came standard with a CD player, rear wiper, outside temp guage...."
All of those except the temp gauge are *standard* on the Pro5 in the U.S., and here in the U.S., the Matrix is more expensive.
Southpaw: Don't be too concerned about what you've heard about rattles--only the few that have them will speak up. I have about 9,000 miles on my Pro5 and haven't heard a single rattle of any kind.
But southpaw is almost certainly right on the space--if I had a big dog that I intended to have in the back, that'd be a pretty strong argument to go for the Matrix.
Woah.... that's new to me. Could you please tell us where you get this idea from? Every single critic I came accross so far raves about the quality of Protege/Protege5.
Most of the review is positive, but I believe the above graf echoes what people are saying here: Matrix wins for cargo space, Protege5 wins for handling and sportiness.
Meade
re: rattles... a few people have complained about a buzzing in the pass. door which might be a loose speaker harness or something. I had it, but it went away on it's own. Other then that, the car is silent.
"Toyota expects to produce 75,000 Matrixes annually. They'll be gobbled up. Expect high demand, short supply and dealers demanding full sticker if not a premium."
Great. If that isn't giving the dealers a license to steal I don't know what is. Now every dealership can put a photocopy of this review at each salesperson's desk and point to it as an excuse for demanding full sticker plus.
Of course, my position is that you judge the vehicle's value apart from the vehicle's price. I will gladly pay the full sticker for the Matrix if I decide it's the best car for my family at that price level. We paid sticker for our Odyssey and consider it a bargain.
The problem is that when they're trying to sell the Matrix at sticker plus they will be butting up against some unanticipated competition with many potential buyers. In my case, a full sticker Matrix is making me seriously consider another Accord as an alternative at the same price level.
twist