Bought a 2001 Town and Country EX March 17 for $25081 out the door in Inferno red color. Got over on the dealer by using friends and family discount and recent graduate rebate {dealer at the time didn't know that EX was not to have any incetives used in it's purchase}. Day's later the dealer called and wanted their money "back". Long story short I had to get a lawyer to force the dealer to send my title. A week or so after purchase I noticed a small oil leak under the van. Took to a different dealer for service and they had to replace the power stearing rack and realign the front end. Got van home and another leak developed, this time the dealer had to replace the timing chain cover which the dealer said was not cast correctly. This took a week. I also had the roof rack replaced because of excess noise. Van seems fine now and we love the way it drives and the creature comforts that are standard. Just sucks that so much has gone wrong already. I wanted to be one of those very pleased type Chrysler owners but so far that has not happened. Maybe in the long run. Honda Ody. was not practical for us with having three small children all in child seats. Magic seat would never be used unless we left a kid. Split rear seat just made more sense.
My family and I are still enjoying our y2k Town & Country LX that we purchased this September. We got it towards the end of the 2000 model year so there we're only 4 T&Cs at our local Chrysler dealership and they were all LX models with the 3.3L V6. I love the way the van drives and looks as well as how comfortable the interior is. We were also lucky enough to get the 16 inch chrome wheel covers on ours and they look great with the champaign paint job. The 3.3L V6 is good for most situations but I wish we had gotten the 3.8L engine. So far we have 18k miles of hard-driving on it and have had no problems at all. I can't wait to get my hands on one of the new re-designed models!
"By the way, do you know how to tell if a house has a Caravan owner living inside it? The van is sitting in the driveway because the third row seat is taking up too much space in the garage, and he hasn't got enough strength to lift it back into the van."
Honda made the magic seat for WUSSIES who don't have the strenth to roll out a seat once a year.
And the so-called "reliability" of the Honda is exposed as a fraud by the owners of new Honda Odyssey in the Town Hall Odyssey Problems Forums where the Odyssey owners report MANY problems. Flip the Odyssey "Magic Seat" to haul those dozen sheets home from Home Depot each week. Set the temperature independently for driver, front passenger, rear passengers in the Chrysler and listen to a quality stereo while sitting in the leather lap of luxury and enjoy the padded armrests on the doors.
Your April 6 post in the Chrysler Town & Country vs. Honda Odyssey topic was a well reasoned (even semi-complimentary to Dodge) approach to your buying decision. Yet the post you made above on the 19th is a brainless screed more suitable to a 14 year old. Did you get scared by a DC van in the meantime? Did your DC owning neighbors' snickers finally get to you? Someone impugn your manhood?
Went to the NY auto show yesterday, The Chrysler vans were by far the most comfortable of all the vans. I didn't care for the Ody seats, felt they were stiff, and found that so called magic seat awkward to lift up with that dumb strap, my wife had trouble even raising it up. IS THIS THE SEAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN RAVING ABOUT?
Go with the Windstar if "safety" is your #1 concern. Unlike the Odyssey, the Windstar has several modern safety features including side airbags which help protect your head.
I apologize to Dodge Caravan fans for the harsh tone of my message (#208). I was trying to write so that it sounded so ridiculous that no one would really take it seriously, but I obviously did a poor job. My message did not deserve to be included in a quality bulletin board such as this one.
Believe it or not, I did write an objective comparison of the Ody and the Caravan, as gcintender wrote on in message #217. Check out message # 550 in "Chrysler Town and Country vs. Honda Odyssey".
carleton1 says: Set the temperature independently for driver, front passenger, rear passengers in the Chrysler and listen to a quality stereo while sitting in the leather lap of luxury and enjoy the padded armrests on the doors. I agree, I would want all that comfort too, if I spent all my time getting it fixed. I've had Chryslet junk before and spent a lot of time at the dealers. Our Odyssey has had no trouble, not even a RECALL. Plus they don't have to give them away in order to get people to buy. I guess it don't matter if you keep it forever but I buy new every 2 years and can't afford the beating on trade.
Since our 1999 GC SE has had ZERO problems. None of the many DC minivans owned by friend have had problems. Meanwhile, we have enjoyed the comfort of separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger, a quality stereo, built in child safety seat, an overhead console with trip computer/compass/outside temperature, padded armrests on the doors, etc. The Odyssey is a very nice minivan and we would now own one if it had been available in March 1999. Meanwhile, the many nice comfort items of the GC SE were appealing...especially the built in child safety seat for safety of grandchildren. Since none of the many friends who owned and now own DC minivans had experienced problems, we had more confidence in the real world experience we could verify than the old wives tales found on the internet or in biased magazines. I think DC should have copied the nice seating arrangement of the Odyssey (middle row and Magic Seat) and also had a powerful engine standard. Honda was smart to have most of the desired features standard. Honda is also smart to not play games with rebates, discounts,hidden incentives, etc. On the other hand, the Odyssey could be improved by adding some of the nice comfort features of the Chrysler minivans. If I did not think the Odyssey was a nice minivan, I would not have recommended it to my sister and brother in law. I told them of the advantages of each and suggested they go compare them closely at the Annual Auto Show in January.
Just got my Odyssey last night. I told the dealer that I was finding options for rates around 7.5% and asked if they had anything better to offer. They came back with a 6.85% 60 month rate they were offering through Chase, if my credit was spotless, which fortunately, it is. The only down side was that there was a $125 application fee which bumped the APR to 7.04%. That was better than the e-loan rate, which is about 7.3% at last check, and much less hassle. Good luck.
I was just giving that guy a taste of his own medicine. I like the magic seat too, but it's my understanding you will never see it in a Chrysler van until they decide to do away with the AWD, which would be a big mistake from the people here who like it. I know if they had the snow in Michigan that used to be the norm 30 years ago I would have looked at them first.
Unless DC can make the magic seats as comfy as its current 3rd row, otherwise, they shouldn't give up comfortable and luxury for a magic seat that use only once every other months. So far, I haven't bought anything that could not fit on the top of the folded down 3rd row bench and everybody in the 3rd row has been happy.
I had never heard of it either, until I started searching rates on bankrate.com a few weeks ago. I saw several there with app fees, so I figured it was something that was common in other parts of the country. I didn't fight it at the dealer because I didn't know that Chase was loan originator until I got there. Also, the rate that came back from Chase from bankrate.com was in the 7.5 range. The 6.85 (7.04 APR) may have been a special rate Chase offered to Honda or the dealer group. Can't tell for sure, but even with the fee, the rate was still better than any other options I saw.
Since you asked, I'm a new Odyssey owner, and this is the cargo I plan to carry:
Typical vacation load - 2 kids, dog, vacation clothes (4 bags), 2 sets of golf clubs, tv/vcr combo (to keep the kids from killing each other during trip), cooler(s), extra food, kids toys, sporting goods, dog cage, and enough room left over to bring back the stuff we buy during vacation.
Other cargo needs - stuff from Home Depot for home improvement projects (got plans to finish the basement - need drywall), kegs and grill for tailgate parties, and finally................ a handy place to store the bodies of smarta$$ DC van owners!!! (for the humor impaired, that was a joke.)
I am not sure what I will use the additonal space for in the Ody, but it sure is nice to have. I don't have to take the seats in and out. How great is that!
I could fit everything you just mentioned in the back of a Chrysler minivan without having to "remove" any seats. Ok, perhaps Rover would get strapped to the roof depending on how large his cage is (that's if I had a dog). ;-)
Seriously, can't any Ody owners come up with a better excuse for needing a magic seat than hauling large appliances? For the ability to haul a washing machine once a year, you give up the every day advantages of AWD, the ability to seat five plus cargo, a full size spare, a silent gas tank, a quieter interior etc. Having to listen to Ody's gas tank slosh year round would be disadvantage enough for me.
come up with excuses we are happy with our purchases and you should be happy with yours. Calm down and enjoy life Bro. It's sooooo easy. BTW please feel free to demean me or my vehicle in your usual manor.
I already know Ody's magic seat would be a useless gimmick for me, but I'm giving Ody owners the opportunity to tell the world why their magic seat is so great. At least Cincy answered the question, and I see how it works for him even though it doesn't sound like a necessity.
So, what do you use your magic seat for besides the up down up down up down calisthenics? Stop beating around the bush and respond to the question... it's sooooo easy. ;-)
A new car owner is just like a father of a new born baby. Attacking owners of another makes of car reminds me a joke: Someone is telling a proud father of a new born baby: "Your baby is ugly". Realize that he may have hurt somebody's feeling, he tries to make amends: "If this makes you feel better, it is not you, but because your wife is ugly!"
Since I now know that you were attempting to make fun of the magic seat, I'll give you a more specific response about what I see as the benefits of it: 1. Our vacations tend to go to visit family. Folding the seat down and having the big flat storage area is a plus for the trip. However, when we get there, we unload and will use the seat to carry extra people again when we go out. That same degree of flexibility is not there with the DC vans. This comes into play about 4 or 5 times a year for us. 2. When the third row is up, the extra deep well stores groceries better and I can store the golf clubs upright without blocking the view out the back window.
I've only had the van for 3 days and 100 miles, so I haven't had a chance to fully evaluate it yet, but I have not heard gas sloshing around, it doesn't pull to the right, the transmission hasn't thunked, the sliding doors have not broken, and the stereo works OK for me.
Also bear in mind that the magic seat was not the deciding factor for me to go with an Odyssey over a T&C. Go back about 50 posts to "How I made my decision" for the details.
AWD has benefits, but I've driven for 20 years without it and never got stuck (I grew up in Buffalo, so maybe I'm conditioned to deal better with winter driving.) Judging by the sales numbers, the vast majority of drivers don't need AWD on their vans either. My opinion is that AWD is additional mechanical complexity and just something else to break. My brother, OTOH, won't by a vehicle without 4WD or AWD because they got blown off the road once in a blizzard. If I had had that experience, I might feel differently about it.
I'm glad you're happy with your van and I have no reason to bash the DC vans. I just hope you can understand why others would be just as happy about picking something else.
I am a big Honda van, but went with a TC Limited. Right now, my third row bench is sitting in my formal dining room (didn't want to get it dirty in the garage). Finally have the space my two german shepherds need (yes, sad but true, we bought a minivan for our two dogs -- we don't have children). Having said that, of-course I wished for a stow-away seat, but maybe not enough to sacrifice the other things discussed in previous posts. In my opinion, there is no perfect van. I am sure Oddy owners wished for the luxury/convenience/whatsayyou that the top end TC has. I think most will also agree the TC / DC looks better than the Oddy. I do wish for a navi system (we are looking into the alpine rather than the mopar) and a double wishbone rear suspension -- but seriously, I have a good sense of direction (I just hate having my wife call me all the time and asking for directions -- especially since SHE has no idea where she is calling from most of the time) and I doubt I'll be sitting in any position to really crave for the double wishbone. I do fear a tranny failure down the road, and I am bracing myself for some nasty resale value when I decide to sell it. In the meantime, I am just so surprised at how nice the TC Limited is. Well beyond my expectations -- especially after years of resisting buying a minivan. My definition of the perfect van -- a TC Limited with stowaway seats, double wishbone rear suspension (here we go again), navi system for the wife AND, the resale value and reliability of Accord/Civic. In the meantime, I'll stick with the TC and pray hard for the best.
I don't think Scanner is making fun of the magic seats(I hope) . He just asked a simple question about why people are so crazy about the magic seats when a folded down seats would be just fine most of the time. For instance, I am not going to buy a AWD T&C if I only use it 4 times a year because the tracking control is good enough. If I only going to use the magic seats 4 times a year why do I want my 3rd row passengers suffer the rest of the 361 days? By the way, I have a question, if I want to carry a 8x4 plywood in an Odyssey, should I leave the magic seats up or disappear in the floor?
I agree with shepherd5 on all of his points. There is no "perfect" van which can satisfy all customer needs, since everyone has different requirements. I own a 98 Accord and am a fan of Honda quality, reliability, and high resale value.
However, I also prefer the quiet interior, luxury features of the Ltd, and the overall package of the T&C. Althought it cost me an extra $2K over the Ody EX w/aftermarket leather, the overall value is justified in my mind. IMHO, Honda's reliability and quality, and not the magic seat, is the critical factor for buyers to consider. In spite of multiple owner complaints in Edmunds' Forum, I do believe the Ody, on the average, will be more trouble free in the long run as compared to the T&C. Resale value, on the other hand, will be similar for the two in about 3 years; especially after the Alabama plant comes online in 2002. This of course assumes a purchase price of $1K-$2K over MSRP for the West Coast!
My ideal configuration is the Ody with Chrysler's body ;-), power moon roof and built-in entertainment system, magic seat and flexible middle row, and the luxo interior features and quietness of the T&C Ltd. Since that is not available, I have "settled" for a T&C Ltd with an extended warranty. So far, after 1600 miles, it has been a delightful ownership experience and I get a satisfactory feeling every time I get behind the wheel!
There is one other magic trick the Odyssey can do. The seat can be flipped over . Now with the seat back becoming the seat and vice versa, you have a covered rear facing seat. As for the cargo / passenger carrying capability, I have owned both a DC and now own an Odyssey. I never had any problem taking the back seat out or putting it back with the DC. My list of advantages of the DC over the Odyssey are: the infinity sound system is about 4 times better than the Honda, roof rack, variable speed rear wiper,heated windshield wiper area, and automatic locking doors at 15 MPH aaare also better. Gas milage and comfort are about equal (I had DC 3.3L)Styling is somewhat personal but DC does have lots more colors. The Odyssey is slightly faster accelerating, holds the road better with independent suspension, and is slightly larger inside. The second and 3rd row passengers have more leg room. The real differences are not great and really not worth the heated discussions. Buy and drive whatever you decide meets your needs. I wish you the best of luck with your choice.
Both minivans are good. The Odyssey extra cargo space behind 3rd seat would really be nice for us when we take our 2nd daughter, her husband and 2 children to Disneyland. With the GC, we need to put some things (that would fit behind the 3rd seat of Odyssey) between right middle quad and the door and under the rear seat. We take out the left quad seat so I can lay down and take a 30 to 40 minute nap at about half-way point. Could easily do the same with Odyssey. It will be very nice when my sister gets her NEW 2001 Taffeta White Odyssey EX in the near future so I can sit in it and make a more careful comparison. I felt the Odyssey driver seat was more comfortable for me whereas my wife prefers the GC front passenger seat. Does this give you an indication of the success of the Women's Rights Movement?
I sometimes find it strange how some people can get so emotional about other people's cars. I did have someone who's uncle bought an Oddy. He attacked my TC (less than a week old at the time) with a passion. In fact, I got sucked in to the debate (a move that left me scratching my head after he left). I can't imagine what how heated he might be if HE had bought an Oddy. Many of us here have made our purchases -- we're stuck with it for some years to come. I still come to visit to read different views that may help me in making my future purchases (that and I'm also a big car nut). I also like to read about potential problems and how other owners deal with it. I think I derive a lot of value from these types of post. Plus, the non-combative posts are more fun (less stressful to be exact) to read. Once again, I don't think I bought the perfect van in the TC. But I'm stuck with it for awhile. Damage is already done, but I can share my experience with readers of this forum. Keep on posting guys, I learned ALOT from all of you -- hopefully, carmakers are reading these posts so they can come up with the perfect van for all of us.
I didn't want to deal with the attitude of snobbish Honda dealers. Many of them will abuse you even when you are not there for an Oddy. With the TC, they are kind of desperate to sell you the car. You are more in control -- better chance of a less stressful buying experience. I went directly to a Chrysler Internet Fleet Manager. After almost two hours checking out their car, I made it clear to them that I am there only to make one offer -- $500 below invoice (splitting the holdback). Little did I know that I had another $1,000 to work with -- the dealer incentive from Chrysler during March. No wonder they accepted my offer right away. In the end, I am paying $35 per month more for the TC Limited (60 mos) compared to an Oddy EX Navi ($28,840 -- 7.5%). Is it worth it? Well, right now, to me, yes. Could change my mind down the road when I have problems with the TC. But an extra $35 per month for all those luxury items and the great stereo seems worth it for now. All you Oddy owners -- PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't curse me. I know the gamble I am taking. Have an Accord and Civic currently and know the reliability I am giving up. You don't need to remind me
Was Honda smart enough to place cargo tie downs in the cargo area? I just spent about half an hour putting some large stuff in my 2001 Town and Country. The Magic seat would not have helped a bit. Everything fit just fine on top of and behind the folded third row seat.
I wanted to tie it down so it wouldn't bounce around and make lots of noise when I drove. No tie downs. What?!?! My 1986 Isuzu trooper had really nice tie downs. My Jeep Cherokee has acceptable tie downs. My Town and Country has nothing. I ended up tying it down to one of bench-seat mounts and to the jack. Yeah, I had to open up the little compartment contaning the jack and tie down to that.
Something is really bothering me. People think just because they buy a Chrysler product they will be cursed for as long as the have the vehicle with terrible and constant reliability problems. My problem is that I simply can't relate to that experience with the vans. I had a 98 Dodge Grand Caravan SE that we turned in at 70k miles and had ZERO problems with it. We owned the car for less than 3 years and drove it hard during those few years. Next up, our rather new y2k Town and Country LX FWD. This car has also had great reliablity so far. It is less than a year old and already has 20k miles on it. Once again, we have had no problmes with this vehicle. Im sure we will be back to the Chyrsler/Dodge dealership next time we want a van, as our experience with DC has been a very good one.
I am kind of tired seeing messages of Odyssey fans who thinks it like an ultimate van. If only thing you have previously driven low end mass produced vehicles such as Civics/accords/caravan and likes - you would find Odyssey a well finished vehicle. However, when compared to TC Ltd edition, Odyssey is pedestrian vehicle. It is like comparing a Civic to a Lexus. When you sit in T & C with leather seats with all the bells and whitstle (powered every thing including back door and onbaord computer) - it is a world apart from Honda. People need to recognise that Honda is nice VAN for *its price* but there is better and far more luxurious VAN exists (of course at much higher price). And that VAN is T & C - it is really pleasant inside and 3.8 ltr engine is simply great and fun to drive. ANd when all this comes with 0.9 % financiang - the fun is multiplied by several times. Btw, I do own 2000 accord that I like very much. BUt VAN choice is very clear T & C.
Since the Odyssey "Magic Seat" will flip so that it can be used for a tailgate party, how long before some idiot lets their children ride on the rear seat with the tailgate up while the Odyssey is being driven? People sued Chrysler when they let children ride in the cargo area behind the back seat and the tailgate opened during a crash. Although owner's manuals specifically state that all passengers should be wearing a seat belt, those who did NOT read the manual still had the audacity to sue Chrysler after their stupidity caused someone to be injured. Same thing could happen to Honda with the Magic Seat flexibility.
Actually those kids were riding in the third seat when they were ejected out the rear hatch (134 back seat passengers have been ejected when the latch failed on impact). At least according to this site, which doesn't mention seat belt usage. ymmv. Steve Host Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Well, it still was a pretty cheap way for the automaker to save .25 cents a copy US. Doesn't make sense that folks would be flying out the back either, unless they weren't belted in. Dumb and dumber.... Steve Host Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Note that the German tests, and the US real world experiences, the seats came loose and could be ejected. This may be how many people were thrown out even though they may have been wearing seatbelts. It's quite troubling how Chrysler did not inform the European owners of the same vans.
Regarding the case mentioned in the link that Steve provided, if I recall correctly the van was hit at about 5mph, it spun, rolled over, and then landed back on its wheels. The hatch opened and the kid was ejected.
In the end, I think Chrysler spent more money than they saved. Dumb and dummer indeed. It wasn't an official recall either. Just a safety campaign...another example of the NHTSA's incompetence unfortunately.
Drew Host Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
How can a recall be enforced, or the latch be deemed defective when it failed no crash safety standards?
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Steve,
For what it's worth, I recall reading that a seat belt wasn't in use in the case you mentioned, and I remember it being said that the van driver cause the accident by running a stop light. I'll look up the article when I have more time if anybody is really interested. Question, where did you get the $0.25 savings figure from?
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H20guy,
I've seen a lot a lawyer web sites that like to "keep the story straight" about Honda automobiles too. Let me know if you're interested in seeing them also.
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Carleton,
Somebody will probably sue Honda for not equipping their minivans with side air bags, or for not having a minivan period. ;-)
There are no rear impact crash test standards per se. All the NHTSA does is a 30 mph test to ensure fuel tank integrity. I guess the point was that Chrysler knew about the problem but yet kept quiet. The fact that the 3rd row seat was ejected as well is quite alarming. Luckily it's not used very much at all in my van. It was widely publicised (at least in our local newspapers) that Chrysler saved US$0.25 per minivan.
Drew Host Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
I find it useful for golfers if we play a lot of golf. My 13-year old son and I pick up his friends and pack their golf bags in the cargo when the magic seat is folded down very often. I do car pooling for my son and his three friends for golfing. Some of us use pulling carts. I agree T&C is more luxurious, but I find the Ody is suffcient and comfortable enough. If people want more luxury, go to T&C.
There is no shortage of brain dead people. Although you would have to read the owners manual to find the tail gate feature of the "magic" seat. I have used the "magic" seat to carry large items twice in almost 2 years. I have never used it to tail gate. I personnally think there must be a better word than "magic" for the folding seat. MPV doesn't call theirs "magic" and it does the same thing. There are no tie downs in the Odyssey. I bought a cargo mat that has quite a bit of friction; but would not keep a load from sliding forward in a hard stop.
Comments
A week or so after purchase I noticed a small oil leak under the van. Took to a different dealer for service and they had to replace the power stearing rack and realign the front end. Got van home and another leak developed, this time the dealer had to replace the timing chain cover which the dealer said was not cast correctly. This took a week. I also had the roof rack replaced because of excess noise.
Van seems fine now and we love the way it drives and the creature comforts that are standard. Just sucks that so much has gone wrong already. I wanted to be one of those very pleased type Chrysler owners but so far that has not happened. Maybe in the long run.
Honda Ody. was not practical for us with having three small children all in child seats. Magic seat would never be used unless we left a kid. Split rear seat just made more sense.
Honda made the magic seat for WUSSIES who don't have the strenth to roll out a seat once a year.
Flip the Odyssey "Magic Seat" to haul those dozen sheets home from Home Depot each week. Set the temperature independently for driver, front passenger, rear passengers in the Chrysler and listen to a quality stereo while sitting in the leather lap of luxury and enjoy the padded armrests on the doors.
Enquiring folks want to know!
IS THIS THE SEAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN RAVING ABOUT?
And all this time I thought everyone was raving about Odyssey's built-in road noise amplifier.
They're the ones with J C Whitney gold card's for all the do-it-yourself options. ;-)
Go with the Windstar if "safety" is your #1 concern. Unlike the Odyssey, the Windstar has several modern safety features including side airbags which help protect your head.
http://www.highwaysafety.org/news_releases/2000/pr121400.htm
Believe it or not, I did write an objective comparison of the Ody and the Caravan, as gcintender wrote on in message #217. Check out message # 550 in "Chrysler Town and Country vs. Honda Odyssey".
Once again, sorry for the offense.
I agree, I would want all that comfort too, if I spent all my time getting it fixed. I've had Chryslet junk before and spent a lot of time at the dealers. Our Odyssey has had no trouble, not even a RECALL. Plus they don't have to give them away in order to get people to buy. I guess it don't matter if you keep it forever but I buy new every 2 years and can't afford the beating on trade.
The Odyssey is a very nice minivan and we would now own one if it had been available in March 1999. Meanwhile, the many nice comfort items of the GC SE were appealing...especially the built in child safety seat for safety of grandchildren. Since none of the many friends who owned and now own DC minivans had experienced problems, we had more confidence in the real world experience we could verify than the old wives tales found on the internet or in biased magazines.
I think DC should have copied the nice seating arrangement of the Odyssey (middle row and Magic Seat) and also had a powerful engine standard. Honda was smart to have most of the desired features standard. Honda is also smart to not play games with rebates, discounts,hidden incentives, etc.
On the other hand, the Odyssey could be improved by adding some of the nice comfort features of the Chrysler minivans. If I did not think the Odyssey was a nice minivan, I would not have recommended it to my sister and brother in law. I told them of the advantages of each and suggested they go compare them closely at the Annual Auto Show in January.
Good luck.
Typical vacation load - 2 kids, dog, vacation clothes (4 bags), 2 sets of golf clubs, tv/vcr combo (to keep the kids from killing each other during trip), cooler(s), extra food, kids toys, sporting goods, dog cage, and enough room left over to bring back the stuff we buy during vacation.
Other cargo needs - stuff from Home Depot for home improvement projects (got plans to finish the basement - need drywall), kegs and grill for tailgate parties, and finally................
a handy place to store the bodies of smarta$$ DC van owners!!! (for the humor impaired, that was a joke.)
I could fit everything you just mentioned in the back of a Chrysler minivan without having to "remove" any seats. Ok, perhaps Rover would get strapped to the roof depending on how large his cage is (that's if I had a dog). ;-)
Seriously, can't any Ody owners come up with a better excuse for needing a magic seat than hauling large appliances? For the ability to haul a washing machine once a year, you give up the every day advantages of AWD, the ability to seat five plus cargo, a full size spare, a silent gas tank, a quieter interior etc. Having to listen to Ody's gas tank slosh year round would be disadvantage enough for me.
I already know Ody's magic seat would be a useless gimmick for me, but I'm giving Ody owners the opportunity to tell the world why their magic seat is so great. At least Cincy answered the question, and I see how it works for him even though it doesn't sound like a necessity.
So, what do you use your magic seat for besides the up down up down up down calisthenics? Stop beating around the bush and respond to the question... it's sooooo easy. ;-)
1. Our vacations tend to go to visit family. Folding the seat down and having the big flat storage area is a plus for the trip. However, when we get there, we unload and will use the seat to carry extra people again when we go out. That same degree of flexibility is not there with the DC vans. This comes into play about 4 or 5 times a year for us.
2. When the third row is up, the extra deep well stores groceries better and I can store the golf clubs upright without blocking the view out the back window.
I've only had the van for 3 days and 100 miles, so I haven't had a chance to fully evaluate it yet, but I have not heard gas sloshing around, it doesn't pull to the right, the transmission hasn't thunked, the sliding doors have not broken, and the stereo works OK for me.
Also bear in mind that the magic seat was not the deciding factor for me to go with an Odyssey over a T&C. Go back about 50 posts to "How I made my decision" for the details.
AWD has benefits, but I've driven for 20 years without it and never got stuck (I grew up in Buffalo, so maybe I'm conditioned to deal better with winter driving.) Judging by the sales numbers, the vast majority of drivers don't need AWD on their vans either. My opinion is that AWD is additional mechanical complexity and just something else to break. My brother, OTOH, won't by a vehicle without 4WD or AWD because they got blown off the road once in a blizzard. If I had had that experience, I might feel differently about it.
I'm glad you're happy with your van and I have no reason to bash the DC vans. I just hope you can understand why others would be just as happy about picking something else.
Happy motoring.
However, I also prefer the quiet interior, luxury features of the Ltd, and the overall package of the T&C. Althought it cost me an extra $2K over the Ody EX w/aftermarket leather, the overall value is justified in my mind. IMHO, Honda's reliability and quality, and not the magic seat, is the critical factor for buyers to consider. In spite of multiple owner complaints in Edmunds' Forum, I do believe the Ody, on the average, will be more trouble free in the long run as compared to the T&C. Resale value, on the other hand, will be similar for the two in about 3 years; especially after the Alabama plant comes online in 2002. This of course assumes a purchase price of $1K-$2K over MSRP for the West Coast!
My ideal configuration is the Ody with Chrysler's body ;-), power moon roof and built-in entertainment system, magic seat and flexible middle row, and the luxo interior features and quietness of the T&C Ltd. Since that is not available, I have "settled" for a T&C Ltd with an extended warranty. So far, after 1600 miles, it has been a delightful ownership experience and I get a satisfactory feeling every time I get behind the wheel!
As for the cargo / passenger carrying capability, I have owned both a DC and now own an Odyssey. I never had any problem taking the back seat out or putting it back with the DC.
My list of advantages of the DC over the Odyssey are: the infinity sound system is about 4 times better than the Honda, roof rack, variable speed rear wiper,heated windshield wiper area, and automatic locking doors at 15 MPH aaare also better.
Gas milage and comfort are about equal (I had DC 3.3L)Styling is somewhat personal but DC does have lots more colors.
The Odyssey is slightly faster accelerating, holds the road better with independent suspension, and is slightly larger inside. The second and 3rd row passengers have more leg room.
The real differences are not great and really not worth the heated discussions. Buy and drive whatever you decide meets your needs. I wish you the best of luck with your choice.
It will be very nice when my sister gets her NEW 2001 Taffeta White Odyssey EX in the near future so I can sit in it and make a more careful comparison. I felt the Odyssey driver seat was more comfortable for me whereas my wife prefers the GC front passenger seat. Does this give you an indication of the success of the Women's Rights Movement?
I wanted to tie it down so it wouldn't bounce around and make lots of noise when I drove. No tie downs. What?!?! My 1986 Isuzu trooper had really nice tie downs. My Jeep Cherokee has acceptable tie downs. My Town and Country has nothing. I ended up tying it down to one of bench-seat mounts and to the jack. Yeah, I had to open up the little compartment contaning the jack and tie down to that.
People sued Chrysler when they let children ride in the cargo area behind the back seat and the tailgate opened during a crash.
Although owner's manuals specifically state that all passengers should be wearing a seat belt, those who did NOT read the manual still had the audacity to sue Chrysler after their stupidity caused someone to be injured. Same thing could happen to Honda with the Magic Seat flexibility.
Steve
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Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Steve
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Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
http://www.detnews.com/1997/autos/9710/16/10090161.htm
http://www.wral-tv.com/features/5onyourside/1995/0927-rear-latches/
Note that the German tests, and the US real world experiences, the seats came loose and could be ejected. This may be how many people were thrown out even though they may have been wearing seatbelts. It's quite troubling how Chrysler did not inform the European owners of the same vans.
Regarding the case mentioned in the link that Steve provided, if I recall correctly the van was hit at about 5mph, it spun, rolled over, and then landed back on its wheels. The hatch opened and the kid was ejected.
In the end, I think Chrysler spent more money than they saved. Dumb and dummer indeed. It wasn't an official recall either. Just a safety campaign...another example of the NHTSA's incompetence unfortunately.
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
How can a recall be enforced, or the latch be deemed defective when it failed no crash safety standards?
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Steve,
For what it's worth, I recall reading that a seat belt wasn't in use in the case you mentioned, and I remember it being said that the van driver cause the accident by running a stop light. I'll look up the article when I have more time if anybody is really interested. Question, where did you get the $0.25 savings figure from?
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H20guy,
I've seen a lot a lawyer web sites that like to "keep the story straight" about Honda automobiles too. Let me know if you're interested in seeing them also.
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Carleton,
Somebody will probably sue Honda for not equipping their minivans with side air bags, or for not having a minivan period. ;-)
http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/1999/Sep-14-Tue-1999/opinion/11943686.html
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
I have used the "magic" seat to carry large items twice in almost 2 years. I have never used it to tail gate. I personnally think there must be a better word than "magic" for the folding seat. MPV doesn't call theirs "magic" and it does the same thing.
There are no tie downs in the Odyssey. I bought a cargo mat that has quite a bit of friction; but would not keep a load from sliding forward in a hard stop.