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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Oddly enough, the first Caravan was merely a tall station wagon but Americans loved it. By the time Honda made the first Odyssey, Chrysler had made a larger Caravan and Grand Caravan and Americans no longer wanted the small, tall station wagon once Chrysler had spoiled them. :shades:
No reason for people to long for the "good old days" of the smaller, slower, lower fuel economy 1995 Odyssey.
The 2003 Voyager and Caravan with 3.3L V6 AND the 2005 Caravan, Grand Caravan, and T&C with 3.3L V6 still have a 19/26 rating. Amazing. :shades:
2.4 4-cyl: 26-34 mpg on my dad's 03 Accord = 160 hp
Imagine what a Honda Odyssey size small would do in this day and age. Just a thought...
255hp-20/28mpg-Amazing for a van
180hp-19/26mpg-Amazing for a van??? You decide.
My 2002 T&C LX with 3.3L HAS given me in EXCESS of the 19/26 rating for highway driving. City driving is too vague to make a realistic statement but the OVERALL, long term average is now 22.6 mpg .
This is substantiated by the very accurate trip computer on my 2002 T&C LX. I can be almost home from a 1400 mile round trip and the average fuel economy for the 1400 miles can drop 0.1 MPG from 28.3 MPG to 28.2 MPG just waiting at one stop light with a lengthy interval.
The trip computer numbers are more accurate than manual computation since it is very difficult to have the exact same amount of fuel in the tank at each refueling. I only "top off" before a trip and at the last refill when the trip is completed.
I do NOT believe anyone gets EPA ratings for normal city, stop and go driving.
For ease of comparison:
DC 2.4L I-4 .... 150 HP and 165 lb-ft torque
DC 3.3L V6..... 180 HP and 210 lb-ft torque
DC 3.8L V6......205 HP and 240 lb-ft torque
Ody 3.5L V6.....244 HP and 240 lb-ft torque
DC engines obtain their maximum HP and torque at a lower RPM which helps offset their lower power output in real world driving while the 5 speed AT of the Odyssey helps give the Odyssey quicker acceleration.
For ease of comparison:
DC 2.4L I-4 .... 150 HP and 165 lb-ft torque
DC 3.3L V6..... 180 HP and 210 lb-ft torque
DC 3.8L V6......205 HP and 240 lb-ft torque
Ody 3.5L V6.....244 HP and 240 lb-ft torque
The DCX engines here have not been subjected to the new stardard. You don't need to test unless you have a new engine. So Honda didn't need to retest. So it could be more or less. Also the place where the max torque is available tells alot. My 3.3L Dodge was very slow(lots of noise and no go) when I tried to pass anything but a gas station(17mpg)
Would anyone happen to know where this max torque is for these? Normally, multivalve, high rev engines produce their torque at much high RPMs than the old pushrods.
HP is just one part of the puzzle. Ever notice, for example....Nissan engines. An Infinit G35 v6 produces 265 hp (i think?) while a BMW I6 produces 225 hp, but the BMW beats it 0-60 mph.
According to CR, the EPA numbers for Oddy are 40% higher than what people are actually seeing in real world.
That would make it seem like Honda didn't scrimp on low end torque, wouldn't it?
DC 3.3L HP at 5,000 RPM and torque at 4,000 RPM while the Odd 3.5L has to wind up to 5,750 to get HP and 5,000 RPM to get the torque.
Agree that Odd 3.5L has more power than DC 3.3L but Odd 3.5L also gets much lower gas mileage in the real world driving. :sick:
I do NOT need to have the most power. For my needs, the DC 3.3L V6 is a good compromise between power and fuel economy. My first vehicle, a 1964 VW Beetle had very little power. My 2001 Blazer and 1993 Ford F-150 engine have only 6 cylinders. I have owned only one 8 cylinder (1970 Dodge Sportsman van) and most of my vehicles have had only 4 cylinder engines.
As far as 4,000 v 5,000 rpm, the Ody is making nearly 95% of its torque by 4000rpm, and the horsepower advantage leaves the DCX in the dust, a concern for me as I merge on an onramp that is less than 100 yards long, so low end (that both vans have) doesen't help me there, where I commute everyday. I often rev to 5,000 or higher to make a safe entry onto the expressway. Here, more than two extra seconds to 60 can mean smooth running or horns honking and middle fingers flying when merging.(Red Mountain Expressway, to those of you familiar with Birmingham, AL)
Take accel. numbers from a 2004 comparo, where the Odyssey horsepower was only 240 on the old standard (now about 230) and the T&C was higher then (215). The 2004 Ody still kicked Chrysler butt. Chrysler's handling was flaccid, its steering was affected by torque steer (otherwise described as "iffy steering")and its powertrain was listed as gutless; not good for the top-of-the-line motor.
The main low point listed for the Odyssey was the low mount of the 12 Volt outlet. Its steering was described as direct and crisp, its suspension had tight, highly damped motions.
This is on the OLD, NON-REDESIGNED Odyssey, but compared to the since unchanged Grand Caravan (DCX sisters).
My wife and I like the separately controlled temperature for the driver and front passenger that DC has offered in minivans since 1996. Honda finally offered it on the Odyssey in 2005. Odyssey had a 3rd row fold into the floor seat many years before DC offered it.
Since comfort is more important to us than racing or extra cargo capacity behind the 3rd row, we chose a DC minivan over an Odyssey. The 3.3L V6 engine is an excellent compromise between power and fuel economy and we have never had a problem with not having enough power. We can drive at or above the speed limit anywhere we want to go.
Every vehicle/minivan has compromises, be it HP, handling, quality etc...... I personally like the sound of my 3.8 V6 DCX GC SXT......It doesn't roar and it goes just fine. I get almost dead on EPA numbers, without some gee wiz cylinder deactivation to worry about somewhere down the road, and based on the 05 Oddy issues, it's not too far down the road.
Some people like the sound of scratching on a chalkboard! Whatever?? You get EPA numbers I can't verify that, all tests say honda fuel economy is better. As for the reliabilty of the Honda, WAY better than my 2001 Dodge. I didn't even buy the extended warrenty for 2100.00 like some people,but if i wanted to I could get a 7 year 100k mile 0 deductable for 1051.00(someone know which car has more problems)Just more Honda bashing par for this forum!!!!
Odyssey has THE most power, will seat 8 people with seat belts, has a 5 speed AT, has 2 new "Firsts": lazy susan storage and VCM.
Dodge/Chrysler offer new minivans for people on a more modest budget, offer a choice of 3 different engines, 2 different sizes, and 1 new "First": fold-into-the-floor 2nd row seats.
The Odyssey was the first with fold into the floor 3rd row seating while Caravan was the first modern, front wheel drive minivan.
I personally like the 2006 Odyssey EX but the TMV of $28,457 is more than I want to pay when I can buy a 2006 GC SXT with a TMV of $24,198....$4,259 less. Either has all the important features needed for a family vehicle.
The top of the line Odyssey Touring looks more luxurious inside than the top of the line T&C Limited while the lowest priced Odyssey is MANY thousands of dollars more expensive than the lowest priced T&C or Caravan.
I'm basing my MPG comments on actual information from this forum and CR.
You may have had issues with your 2001 Dodge that I can't verify, but that was a first year redesign just like your 2005 Oddy. Maybe you shouldn't buy first year designs.
I've had 2 Dodges as company vehicles, both were faultless for 70k miles each. I didn't baby either of them, if anything, I abused both. Judging by this and the other Honday Oddy Forum, it's the actual owners bashing their Honda.
PS: I think he was talking about his 3.3 V-6 180 hp version. Hope I clarified... If not, I will be happy to do so further.
PPS: This is not directed so much at Dennisetc, but at everyone... Personal attacks seem juveinle, and I hope other posters realize that.
I've had 2 Dodges as company vehicles, both were faultless for 70k miles each. I didn't baby either of them, if anything, I abused both. Judging by this and the other Honday Oddy Forum, it's the actual owners bashing their Honda.
Yes I love the way you look at these forums for any problems then post them as if they happen to EVERYONE!! While I believe there was a wind noise problem with the windshield(worse thing I ever saw) Brake noise, gaps at the glove box(design oversite/not really a big deal to me) and One person who's engine failed at 600 miles(boy you've pounded that one into the ground) BTW they got a new engine and a 7/100/0 warrenty and didn't have to pay 2200.00 for it. I have seen many problems listed on here and the DCX folks don't post much. One with a tranny replacement at less than a 1000 miles. One where a door flew open while driving. Do I know if they are true. NAH!! So I don't keep pushing that garbage! Why, because its not a known fact to me. Of course all things you don't agree with are wrong. This includes all motor mags and CR reliability cause you can trust people who post here. In the DCX forum if you post you have a problem people say your a Honda person. Nice way to treat someone looking for help!!!
I can't verify your $2200 problem. Maybe the "new engine" owner is a total fraud, doesn't seem it to me. It was nice of Honda to give them a DCX style warranty. Hey, maybe there's a DCX conspiracy to make Honda look really bad, maybe they've hired a bunch of computer geeks to make up names and post problems here. Maybe the whole A/C problem and Mr Grill is fake? DCX probably paid Uncle Sam to issue bogus recalls too!!!
I believe there was one person, who after I asked about problems in the Dodge Problem area, suddenly joins the same day. Their van had a major problem and was towed to dealer.....all within hours. Never heard a peep from this person again. A number of Dodge owners were skeptical......But that was one time. It doesn't happen to EVERYONE!!
I'm skeptical of auto mags for good reason. They always hype the latest and greatest, make it their car of the year or something, and within months, it's the worst car out there. They do it to sell mags, plain and simple. I personally know some of these so called "experts", living in Detroit, attending certain auto club events etc.....none are that impressive or better than any of us on here!
CR is good for cold hard facts and testing standards. When the 2006 CR Auto Issue hits the stands, I'm certain the Oddy will be a recommended buy with all solid red circles.
Not doors(door) and still got 5 star! Don't we know for a fact that the DCX van has a marginial offset crash test.
I can't verify your $2200 problem. Maybe the "new engine" owner is a total fraud, doesn't seem it to me. It was nice of Honda to give them a DCX style warranty. Hey, maybe there's a DCX conspiracy to make Honda look really bad, maybe they've hired a bunch of computer geeks to make up names and post problems here. Maybe the whole A/C problem and Mr Grill is fake? DCX probably paid Uncle Sam to issue bogus recalls too!!!
The $2200.00 is what you paid for a warrenty(6/100/0) can get one thats 7/100/0 for $1051.00 from Honda.Thats even with the 7/70 on the powertrain. i thing DCX knows how often the vans need service! I'm not a big conspiracy guy sorry. But in the past DCX needed to be forced to recall!
I believe there was one person, who after I asked about problems in the Dodge Problem area, suddenly joins the same day. Their van had a major problem and was towed to dealer.....all within hours. Never heard a peep from this person again. A number of Dodge owners were skeptical......But that was one time. It doesn't happen to EVERYONE!! ]
Again you misquote me! I said you look at isolated incidents and make it look like Everyone has that problem! Of course you heard nothing, you need to listen first!
I'm skeptical of auto mags for good reason. They always hype the latest and greatest, make it their car of the year or something, and within months, it's the worst car out there. They do it to sell mags, plain and simple. I personally know some of these so called "experts", living in Detroit, attending certain auto club events etc.....none are that impressive or better than any of us on here!
Me too, I can't understand all the fuss about the 300C,Magnum,Charger, and Crossfire. Those guys are biased!! I live close to Irvine I know many car guys heck I know the guy in charge of Jaguar marketing(Coached his kid in baseball, that kid can play) what a hard job he has LOL. He rarely ever badmouths anything and is very even mannered. Except he's always trying to give me a Ford plan.
CR is good for cold hard facts and testing standards. When the 2006 CR Auto Issue hits the stands, I'm certain the Oddy will be a recommended buy with all solid red circles.
Probably not all red circles but close
This is an Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler forum but another brand name must be included to make the comparison complete.
If cost were NO factor, I would buy either a loaded Odyssey EX-L-Nav-RES or a loaded Sienna XLE Limited as they feel more luxurious than the loaded GC SXT or T&C Limited. (No Ody Touring because of PAX and No Sienna XLE Limited AWD because of run-flats).
Since cost IS a factor, the DC minivans are appealing because DC provides many important features at a lower cost.
The Ody outperforms the DC minivans. (But in my test drive, the Sienna was quicker with a more responsive transmission and engine).
DC minivans had a bad reputation for transmission failure in the 90's but now it is the Odyssey that has problems....based on reading Ody owners postings here in the Town Hall. If I wanted the minivan built by the company with the best reliability history, the Sienna wins over both the Odyssey and DC minivans.
I'm confused here.....
Did you pay $2200 for a warranty for your 2001 Dodge? or new Oddy?? My 7/70 was included in the price. I hear rumors that Dodge is lowering it's warranty for 2006 MY but have not seen anything official.
You must be thinking of some other person on here. I have 8500 trouble free miles on my 2005 DC GC SXT and had it back to dealership once for a $29.00 oil change and tire rotation. They charged me $19 though because I misplaced the wheel lock and they couldn't rotate my tires.
I crossed shopped 4-5 Honda dealers here in Detroit, drove the Oddy probably 10 times total (as to not be a pest at any one dealership) back to back with Dodge. I can't feel a 1.4 sec 0-60 times difference, or a 4 ft difference in braking, they handled about the same and the reliability of the Oddy is definitely worst than a 2005 Dodge (based on any measure, be it CR, these forum or number of recalls).
My Pony has many tricks.....better warranty, good gas mileage, better towing, less problems, great versatility, quiet and smooth ride and much lower cost. Ohhh yeah, you wanna make believe the cost difference is $1500 at best, that's fine. I can read the prices being paid for 06 Oddy on here, and I know DCX dealers are now offering EP + across the board.
Hmmm you bring up one good point though. Based on the 2005 Oddys, If I were buying an 06, I'd probably pony up for an extended warranty from Honda. We could add that to the price difference. Is that an additional $2000????
I remember years ago, before most states outlawed them, the glass pack muffler was the rage. They liked them because of the sound of power it gave the vehicle. The DGC 3.8 is nowhere near as loud as the glass pack was, but I like that roar of the engine. It also gives it the sound of power, even if it is a second or so slower than the Honda.
Sort of why many like the Harley over the Honda in motorcycles, even though the Honda is faster. Harley even tried to patient that sound.
It's 1.4 seconds faster than a Dodge to 60 mph, get it right
We all know Minivans are about speed and 0-60 time! You outta see the trunk space and cup holders in my new Porche 911....outstanding! :P
None for me!!
I crossed shopped 4-5 Honda dealers here in Detroit, drove the Oddy probably 10 times total (as to not be a pest at any one dealership) back to back with Dodge. I can't feel a 1.4 sec 0-60 times difference, or a 4 ft difference in braking, they handled about the same and the reliability of the Oddy is definitely worst than a 2005 Dodge (based on any measure, be it CR, these forum or number of recalls).
Well you cound watch me pull away from you and then rear end me. Then you'll see the difference!!!
My Pony has many tricks.....better warranty, good gas mileage, better towing, less problems, great versatility, quiet and smooth ride and much lower cost. Ohhh yeah, you wanna make believe the cost difference is $1500 at best, that's fine. I can read the prices being paid for 06 Oddy on here, and I know DCX dealers are now offering EP + across the board.
The 2006 warranty is the same as the 2006 DCX. ITs about 3000.00 if you add side airbags.
Hmmm you bring up one good point though. Based on the 2005 Oddys, If I were buying an 06, I'd probably pony up for an extended warranty from Honda. We could add that to the price difference. Is that an additional $2000????
$2200.00 for the dodge 1051.00 for the Honda. Ok keep switching the numbers.
And VCM and Standard side airbags with rollover protection. 5 speed transmissions and high output engine!! Noise canceling radio!! 8 person seating!! All sorts of new tricks the things some people would call too technicial. Not me I love the features.