Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

graphicguy · June 2012

nyc.....seems as if BMW finally got their DCT trans to the point where it's really, really good. I've never driven this, but found a blurb video that addresses BMW's DCT briefly. I drove the old version, which as the reviewer points out, was bad.

http://reviews.cnet.com/coupe-hatchback/2011-bmw-m3-coupe/4505-10867_7-34837307.- - html

Sounds very similar to the S-Tronic in our S4.

Can't remember if it was you, but someone wanted to see the console and nav in the S4.

nyccarguy · June 2012

I didn't ask, but damn that is beautiful! So who has been driving the S4 more, you or your GF?

flightnurse · June 2012

Sweeny what does that have to do with manual car?

First off, driver skills, what skills? 99% of drivers in America have no skills at al! When was the last time you double clutched your G? How often have you 4 wheel drifted your G, coming out of a corner?
Whether you are driving LI Expressway, the 405 in LA or I35 in Austin the amount of traffic on the roads today do not allow one to use "drivers skills" these days, and since you have stated in the past you have never taken your G35 on the track, then having done any "driver skills" is out of the question.

Also what does driving a manual have to with endurance?

rayainsw · June 2012

'if BMW finally got their DCT trans to the point where it's really, really good.'
Approaching 10,000 miles on a BMW 3 w/DCT,
my opinion is that it is very, very good.
- Ray
Just read the R&T test of BMW's M5 w/DCT online this morning...
[ Edit: And w/Manual 6-speed. ]

graphicguy · June 2012

FN...just because someone knows how to drive a manual trans (who doesn't in this thread?), doesn't equate to being a good driver, let alone a good track participant. One type of trans doesn't make you a skilled driver over another type of trans.

A good driver is a good driver, a bad driver is a bad driver, regardless of the transmission that's in their car, or if they're on a track.

Lo those many years ago when I was still tracking my ratty Mustang, it was always a hoot to watch the folks who fashioned themselves as "track guys". My car looked like garbage. But, it was always fun to dispatch them. I kind of salivate thinking what I could have done on the track with one of these current day dual clutch auto/manual trans.

RAY.....would love to test drive a BMW with their recent DCT. I bet it's a blast.

NYC....as always....appreciate the comments. Last week, I commandeered the S4. Since then, she's been in it, making sure she takes it before I can grab the keys.

Frankly, it depends on which car has the most gas as to which one she takes.......

rayainsw · June 2012

'RAY.....would love to test drive a BMW with their recent DCT. I bet it's a blast. '
Next time you are in HotLanta, let me know
and you can drive this one...
- Ray
Blast is a good description...

sweendogy · June 2012

I'm amazed at a guy who calls people out for not reading the posts-has the stones to respond as such- "track" was the main point. I have done various driving schools- never competed in any track events- and at those schools they do not teach students on automatics- one reason is to fully be more in tune with the car. Driving a manual on a track takes skill- it takes energy and thus endurance- pretty simple observations.
I'm amazed at your comments at times - not everyone has been to Germany to pick up one of 3bmws and had owned a corvette - Im also not really up on leader ads - but one thing I do know is of you drive a manual the right hand has more to do then just turn the radio and text -so I'm all for it.

I will never Track my g- unless I hit the lotto I don't see a reason to track a 45k car with the potential for it to be distroyed.

graphicguy · June 2012

Ray...don't be surprised if I show up knocking on your door stating "where are your keys?".

My apologies in advance to the kind hosts, and to my fellow posters in this thread for what I'm about to write.

I've been on this site for at least 15 years, maybe closer to 20. I can't even remember if I had a post that was deleted. I think there was once, a long time ago, when one of the hosts reminded me of my lack of decorum regarding a post. This may be the 2nd time. There may be a deletion coming my way, too.

sween.....I try....I try really, really hard to ignore your narcissism.

I'm about to fail miserably!

We get it.

Any car that's not your beloved G falls down in comparison in some way, shape or form. They either cost too much, they don't have a transmission you like, they have too many doors, they don't have the right label on the quarter panels, etc.

You've taken a driving class. That's qualified you to belittle those of us who have built a track car, and/or actually have had track time.

We get it.

The only transmission you like is a manual transmission. Nothing else is worthy, regardless of how good it might be.

Anyone who posts anything in here except what you want to post about is called out by you. You criticize anyone, with any vehicle, with any level of experience (or lack thereof) on the road, on the track, anywhere unless it's a G.

You criticize, criticize, criticize....most other posters, most other posters' cars (except those who have a G), etc, etc etc!!!!!!!!!!!

We get it!

We get it!

We get it!

Enough already!

rayainsw · June 2012

'Ray...don't be surprised if I show up knocking on your door stating "where are your keys?". '
Just post something here - we'll make arrangements.
- Ray
Used to drive manuals, now drive automatics...

billyperksii · June 2012

More like 15K now-book value, write it off the insurance will upgrade you to the G37.

Kirstie_H · June 2012

on the personally-directed comments, please. Stick to talking about cars, not about each other.

PS: when I drive an automatic, I use my right hand to put on a finger puppet show for rear-seat passengers. :P
Yeah, I really doubt that people text, etc., simply because they don't have anything to do with their right hand, and manual drivers who are inclined to do such things will do it between shifts. It's common sense that stops people from doing it, not transmission.

sweendogy · June 2012

you dont get it- my recent stance has nothing to do with a G - my comments never knock people who built a track car- or anyone who has had track time, more power and fun to them... this rant is unwarranted- I have not said anything about the "GF" S4, i envy such a car (mine would be wth the manual thou).

i dont care if you are on this site for 15years or 15mins - you should re-read the posts before posting such rubbish. Please spare us with the !!!! and the WE get its-- really--

I do believe the automatic has a place, a huge place in the market- but those who DRIVE are more engaged with a manual- done and done- (you can rant about the DSTs and CVTs all you want- its a computer directing you)

And for billy- I dont care if my car is now worth 15 dollars or 15k - I paid what I paid for a daily driver and not a track car-

nyccarguy · June 2012

Sweendogy - I give you a lot of credit for attending various driving schools. I also agree with you that if more people (not the guys here on the board), drove vehicles with manual transmissions that they'd pay more attention to their everyday driving habits. I used to heavily criticize many things on these boards many moons ago (I think I signed on in '99) from AWD to Automatic Transmissions.

Automatics WERE terrible. My 1st car was a 1992 Chevrolet Beretta GT w/ a 3 speed automatic (garbage), my 2nd car was a 1998 Ford Explorer Sport with a 5 speed automatic that shifted slow & violently.

I LOVE my 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH equipped with a slick shifting, 5 speed manual transmission. I DID NOT appreciate the bill I got to replace the clutch, friction plate, & throw out bearing at only 52,000 miles.

My 328xi is an automatic w/ AWD. It's our 2nd BMW with AT & AWD (1st was my wife's 2007 X3). Manuals have been an $800 or so option for a number of years on the Corvette. Yes they are somewhat of a compromise, but that margin is getting slimmer & slimmer every year.

I'd like to teach my children (5.5, 3, & 7 months) to drive stick and have their 1st car equipped with a manual transmission.

Speaking of "driver skills," I put the brakes to the test on my BMW this morning. About 3/4 mile away from my house, I'm on a straight section of a curvy road. I see a TSX that took the corners so badly he was heading straight towards me. I jumped on the brake pedal (there was nowhere to go) and those BMW clamped down & stopped IMMEDIATELY! This would have not been an offset front end collision, this would have been a straight head on collision. If I had left 1 second earlier, not come to a full & complete stop @ the stop sign by my house... WOW! I think at the very least Id have been car shopping again or at the worst put BMW's crash worthiness to the test. Makes you think... WHAT ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH WAS THIS GUY DOING IN MY FREAKIN LANE?

kdshapiro · June 2012

One of the things about crash avoidance, is the ability for the car to react as fast as you do. When you make the chassis faster than the speedometer, that can happen.

graphicguy · June 2012

nyc....Glad to hear you're OK. BMW's brakes are excellent, as you found out.

When my son turned 15, I taught him to drive on a manual transmission, not an automatic. I still had my track Mustang at the time and was irregularly taking it to the local track. And, I took him to Mid-Ohio for autox (myself and a friend set up and drove a Toyota FX16 there).

Did any of it make him a better driver? I don't know. Those first couple of years, he actually had more tickets and accidents than I did at the same time in my driving career.

And, when he got the chance, he went for an automatic vs a manual transmission car.

The benefit of manual trans, if there is one, has faded over the years. First, the manual trans was used because they offered better fuel economy. That's simply not true today (with rare exceptions).

As many of us can testify here (including yourself), today's automatics are miles away from where they used to be.

On the track, or the highway, there's no way I can shift as quickly as the S-Tronic can. I hit the paddle shifters and the shift is firm and immediate.

The auto/manual trans in your BMW, it will be in the right gear, at the right time, and do it quicker than you can.

That offers more control over the car, not less.

The higher up the performance and price ladder you go, the fewer and fewer manual transmissions you'll see. As was pointed out before, even Ferraris and Lambos are now sporting "manumatics". Most would agree that those are at the top of the heap when it comes to personal performance cars.

Maybe somebody can make another thread to talk about manual transmissions, as in here, this has become derailed.

kd....couldn't agree with you more.

stickguy · June 2012

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef6716a/8925

graphicguy · June 2012

stickguy.....cool. Thanks for that link. Now, there's somewhere to go for those who want to talk about types of transmissions.

sweendogy · June 2012

thanks stickguy- Graph can't wait to meet you on the board, "we get it"!!!!!!

fedlawman · June 2012

You're an enthusiast if you own a "sport sedan" that has the weight, length, and wheelbase of a Chevy Equinox SUV, but you're a poseur if it doesn't have 3 pedals? :confuse:

sweendogy · June 2012

Nice rig- does it come in stick?

qbrozen · June 2012

You'll keep your blood pressure lower and live longer if you just scroll past posts from certain people.

graphicguy · June 2012

q......you're right. By now, you'd think I'd know better. Just scroll past.

Fed....how about a 50 year old F-150 with 3 on the tree? Surely since that's a a sports vehicle since it offers all the "control" of a manual trans.

sweendogy · June 2012

Yeah you should just scroll past- instead of posting an adolescent rant full of false claims.

F150 great pull, along with the Chevy equinox, enjoy the automatic s4 you bot with the accord trade in and is 63% yours and if your relationship with the "GF" goes sour it's yours- lets not forget anout the great dinner in chitown you see graphic I actually enjoyed the story- and still wish you well in the transaction and hope you enjoy the car- but the manual comments and jabs are a little much for a guy who has been posting for 15 years -

fedlawman · June 2012

"how about a 50 year old F-150 with 3 on the tree?"

The luxury companies should offer column mounted shifters. They require even more skill and driver involvement, and it would make room for more cupholders. :P

stickguy · June 2012

and get rid of synchros. If you really want to be involved in the driving experience, a crash box is the way to go!

flightnurse · June 2012

Grapghic you are preaching to the choir, most races are won in the corners.

flightnurse · June 2012

how about a 50 year old F-150 with 3 on the tree? Surely since that's a a sports vehicle since it offers all the "control" of a manual trans.

A friend of mine's first car was a 1960 Ford Comet with a straight 6 and 3 (True drivers car) on the tree, it was a hand me down, first owned by his grandfather, then grandma and when she died, it went to my buddies brother, who had it until my buddy got his Chevy LUV truck, about 1978, my buddies brother tried to teach my buddy how to drive it, however, brothers will fight. So, I was asked to teach him. It was a tricky car to drive, but I have never seen, felt or heard the front and rear bumpers of a car hit the pavement from being bucked so bad as I did with this comet. At one point I was laughing so hard I couldn't stop laughing, plus I had whip lash... But we marched on and he finally mastered driving the damn thing...

Talk about built to last, one night we hit a telephone pole with it (no questions about how it happened), scraped the front fender, but took a chunk from the telephone pole..

Ford Comet 1 wooden telephone pole 0...

FN

flightnurse · June 2012

GM build a great rock crusher tranny the M-22 nice one, who needs a clutch.

graphicguy · June 2012

fed...stick...fn...I actually learned how to drive a manual on an Econoline Van my Father used in his business. Can't remember the year it was though. It was a "3 on the tree". Then I graduated to an F-150, with the long throw (and I do me looonnnnnng throw) floor shifter, in which you had to guess which gear it might end up. It might have had synchros at some point in its life. But they were gone by the time I jumped into the driver's seat. Lots of double clutching on that truck.

Lots of control offered with those.... :P

rayainsw · June 2012

Drove several, back in the day.
Even drove a '4 on the tree' once - a Peugeot -
a mid-1960s 404, I believe.
Odd.
- Ray
Happy now with 7 on the floor - and on the steering wheel...

gogiboy · June 2012

GG--

This little dust-up reminds me of a debate that descended into a verbal assault over on Edmunds "Inside Line". As often happens someone gets critical--even nonsensical over some perceived problem with a technology or car, in this case the new Scion/Subie joint venture.

Anyway, this anti-Scion poster argued vehemently (one could almost imagine the spittle on his computer screen) that no car could be called a sports car with only 200 HP as if that as the only measure of a sports car could be distilled into one number divorced from all other driving characteristics. No amount of argument from others would sway him from his position. I liked it when another poster pointed out that by that narrow definition no Austin Healey, MG, Triumph, Fiat, etc--all mid-60s icons of sportiness-- could be classified as a sports car.

Alas, neither would my 92 MR2 with only 140 HP, but it always feels like a sports car to me (and GG I whisper this: it has a manual)

Gogiboy

fedlawman · June 2012

200hp? Where do these guys crawl out from?

Here are some of the non-sports cars I've owned over the years...

79 Alfa Romeo Spider, 86 Honda (Jackson Racing) CR-X Si, 88 BMW 325is, 91 Nissan Sentra SE-R, 94 Mazda Miata.

Now that I think about it, out of the 20 or so cars I have owned over the years, only 2 have had more than 200hp.

stickguy · June 2012

interesting question about HP. Thinking back, I am pretty sure the only ones I have had are my 2000 Acura TL (really my son's car) and my wife's Odyssey.

Maybe the 1970 Nova I briefly had (never registered that dog). I know it had a V8, but no clue how much HP it had than (or ever!).

So of cars that I actually plated and drove, probably just those 2. Had a 1998 Maxima SE, but that only had 190 I think. But was quick.

fedlawman · June 2012

Only 190hp, but the Maxima had a 4DSC sticker on the window, so it counts.

stickguy · June 2012

daring to venture back onto topic...

stopped at the Audi dealer today to look at a Q5 (not a back little wagon). Only had 1 of those in stock, but man, they had A4s stacked up everywhere.

graphicguy · June 2012

Hey Gogi....haven't seen you around in awhile. Where have you been?

Don't be a stranger.

I should know better than to be drawn into those types of pretentious/contentious posts.

My son really likes the Subie version of that BRZ. I told him he probably has another 4-5 years on his newly acquired Fiesta (which he really likes, with its version of a dual clutch trans automatic) before he should look at one. Who knows what will be available by then. His circumstances will dictate.

For good or ill, he's inherited his Dad's love of cars.....even automatics.

I think those Maximas only came as automatics....the 4 door sports car (4DSC).

m6user · June 2012

No the Maximas in the mid/late 90s were available with 5 spd manual trannies. Don't know about the the later ones. I had a 96.

stickguy · June 2012

you could get a stick for 2 generations past that. I had a '99 SE 5 speed, and when they redesigned them (I think for 2001) you could still get a stick.

actually, the prior generation to what is out now (the ones with the glass stripe roof) were available with a stick too. Saw one for sale not that long ago.

gogiboy · June 2012

GG--

I'm still hanging around--not too much posting. I guess I'm spending too much time in the studio and with my dogs.

I see where the Subie/Scion Twins were #1 and #2 for shortest time on dealer lots for May (4 days and 5 days respectively), which makes sense given their recent release.

I mentioned on Sales Stories that I looked at a Scion frs on the lot of my local dealership. It's a good looking car from the outside, but the interior looks rather cheap to me. I think it's in keeping with the "driver's car" philosophy being espoused by Toyota (and it's probably keeping the cost down). The one on the local lot lasted close to three weeks before it sold. I haven't seen it around town yet although it might have been purchased by someone from OKC or Tulsa since they are only 60 miles away and the pricing is fixed with Scion so buyer's will pay the same anywhere. Actually, I say that and I know my local dealership doesn't play any mark-up games so maybe it's a better deal if some of the dealers are charging a surcharge for these high-demand cars.

By the way congrats on the Audi. My brother did a similar move last winter, but reversed the brands. They own an Audi Allroad and he just added a new BMW X-3 to their stable. His wife drives the Allroad and he drives the X-3. Interestingly, he went from a BMW 3 series to a Honda Element to the X-3, which strikes me as a bit auto schizophrenic.

Gogiboy

flightnurse · June 2012

Hey Fed, talk about back in the day..... Jackson Racing, I don't think many people on the each coast know about this little company...

FN

flightnurse · June 2012

Hey Stick not too sure if the Q5 talk is allowed, since it is a SUV... :P

But since you brought it up, Audi will be importing a diesel version of the Q5 for 2013, it will be a 2L diesel 190hp and roughly 300+lbs of torque. Since MB will be bring the GLK blue tec diesel over for 2013. I haven't heard about a X3 Diesel..

Yes, the Q5 is a very nice SUV, well built very solid. But pricey.

flightnurse · June 2012

Well I did it, I sold my 2011 328i, on Friday when I got back in town I call the gentlemen who I meet at the BMW dealership (when my partner and I went and test drove a 335d) he hadn't bought a car yet, and he told me that mine was exactly the color combo and options he was looking at. About 20 minutes on the phone with him, he came by today, before 8am (it is really the only time one can stand being outside for any length of time it's been 110 here) went for a drive, he will be back on Monday afternoon with a certified check. Overall I had 2 people come look at the car, didn't hear back from them.

One down, I'm having a hard time wanting to place the 330 up for sale, I'll see how I feel after this coming week.

graphicguy · June 2012

FN...congratz! 1/2 down....another car to go. I can see that RS4 in your driveway, now!

fedlawman · June 2012

Congrats Flightnurse!

nyccarguy · June 2012

Congrats my man!

sweendogy · June 2012

Yeah, Way to go

graphicguy · June 2012

All.....clearly, I never followed the Maxima lineage. Matter of fact, I think I was only in one once a few years ago...driving a rental. It seemed nice enough.

gogi....I know that Scion came out with a big splash. But, I have yet to see any of their newer offerings on the road. As mentioned, my son pointed out the BRZ to me. He's go the hots for one. Not sure he's got the means at this stage, though. He's saving up for a house. His GF is bugging him for a ring. If/when that happens, he's looking at minivans in pretty short order.

Trade market is strong. Pulling the trigger on the S4 was predicated on me kicking in some money for the SO. That meant getting decent $$$$ for the Accord. And, for her to sell her '03 Subie Outback, which she's putting in for some minor repairs (CV joints, A/C check and charge) before hitting the newspaper ads.

May have another Sales story regarding selling the Subaru shortly. I have to get a good detail on it, after it comes back from the shop with a clean bill of health. So, it will be a few weeks, yet.

Again, hope you stick around.

flightnurse · July 2012

I hope all of you are enjoying your 4th at home, grilling and enjoyed the day. I still haven't placed the 330 up for sale yet, however, I have decided that I wont be getting another sedan even though the RS4 is an incredible car, since my partners next car will be a sedan, this leaves me to get the car I have wanted for a while, a NSX. Talk about a car that hold it's value..... Now time to get get outside and clean the grill, the weather people are calling for rain here in the valley of the sun... A nice change from the 111 degrees we have been having.

FN

sweendogy · July 2012

Don't understand why you can't have multiple sedans in a family setting? Why not have the partner get the coupe or convert? I will say the "downgrade?" to the NSx could not be a better more exotic pick. Make sure you get the manual because I think the auto was slower and had less hp(maybe its just my bias towards stick, but I think this may be true). Love the NSx - the end of it coincidently ended Acura as a cheap lux sport brand it was previously known- now its just Hondas Buick line. Better pick one quick before Jerry stienfield and jay Leno come swoop one up.

flightnurse · July 2012

Being a armchair quarterback is easy to do, however, when you don't have all the facts one ends of washing egg off ones face. If it was easy as you say it would be done. We have a 3 car garage, one bay is taken up by my oldest hobby (love), motorcycles, I have some classic's, old school and new school bikes (6 total). So this leaves two bay open, before selling the 328, that was sitting outside, while the 330 was in the garage, the other bay belongs to what Rick drives. I travel for work, I'm on the road more then I am home, so to have multi sedans was not a good use of space. The 328 had 4500 miles on it (two trips to San Diego in it) and was bought back in Oct-2011, when I was home and the weather was good (which was most of the time) I would ride one of the bikes. So with the sale of both BMW's this will give me enough cash to buy the NSX that I want, the extra money would go to Rick and whatever he wants. We are all happy and the driveway is not cluttered with cars.

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